Also, there's a big assumption that all players have the chat window open... a lot of people in the queues that do normal don't, so won't see anything you say
Just what will you be communicating with them about? The Objectives that are the same as they were in Normal?
Take out the initial engagement.
Take out the Generators and then focus on the Transformer.
Destroy the Transformer before the Nanites get in range.
You can delay the Nanites to give more time to destroy the Transformer.
Destroy the remaining mobs before heading to the other side to do the same thing.
Do the same thing on the other side.
Take out the mobs, along with the Cube and Gateway.
Do it in under 15 minutes after the initial engagement for a bonus.
Cause...they're the same thing...Normal and Advanced. Mobs are tougher...but that's it. Advanced is a test of the player - their build, their piloting...cause the test of the instance knowledge was already done in Normal.
If it's not that, is it a case of sitting there for the 45 minutes to an hour or more it might take to go over basics of mechanics, basics of piloting, and basics of builds? Wait, that's all basic stuff...not Advanced stuff.
Why are you treating Advanced like it should be some introductory tutorial...?
Cause, you know...Normal and all that.
Does normal fail when the nanite spheres heal the transformer ? NO.....Do the players even know that it happened..NO
How do they know to take out the generators together ?
Normal does nothing to prepare those players for advanced.........Nothing at all
If they keep the mobs strong 10 or so respawns might let them know there in over their heads
What we have is not working...We have both posted better ways to educate players and having a qualifying mission to even enter a advanced missioin which would be the right way
The Fails arnt helping .................And they need to go
Jellico....Engineer ground.....Da'val Romulan space Sci
Saphire.. Science ground......Ko'el Romulan space Tac
Leva........Tactical ground.....Koj Romulan space Eng
JJ-Verse will never be Canon or considered Lore...It will always be JJ-Verse
Also, there's a big assumption that all players have the chat window open... a lot of people in the queues that do normal don't, so won't see anything you say
Not to mention the language barrier. Google Translate does a crappy job translating "I'm a little teapot..." into Turkish.
Yes, because the Objective shows as failed in the window. There's also the message about scanning the Nanites. The Transformer heals. Lets players know in all sorts of ways.
How do they know to take out the generators together ?
You pop the first Generator and the Nanites spawn. The Nanites begin moving toward the Transformer. If you need to pop the other three Generators, that's less time you have to pop the Transformer before the Nanites get there. Therefore, popping the Generators together as much as possible will allow players the most time to focus down the Transformer.
Yes, because the Objective shows as failed in the window. There's also the message about scanning the Nanites. The Transformer heals. Lets players know in all sorts of ways.
You pop the first Generator and the Nanites spawn. The Nanites begin moving toward the Transformer. If you need to pop the other three Generators, that's less time you have to pop the Transformer before the Nanites get there. Therefore, popping the Generators together as much as possible will allow players the most time to focus down the Transformer.
Simple observation and reasoning.
Except everything that it does.
No it does not
A player has a few seconds before being in combat...............almost non stop...........not many people will read a pop up covering there screens when taking damage
If it did we wouldn't have these problems in advanced would we ?
If they , Cryptic insists on a fail conditition it should be the borg called in reinforcements of 4 Tac cubes and a Diamond
But no normals do nothing to prepare players for advanced except show players what borg look like
Jellico....Engineer ground.....Da'val Romulan space Sci
Saphire.. Science ground......Ko'el Romulan space Tac
Leva........Tactical ground.....Koj Romulan space Eng
JJ-Verse will never be Canon or considered Lore...It will always be JJ-Verse
And yet these so-called elitists don't seem to spend a whole lot of time in the genuine elite content. It's rare to see any discussion pertaining to how quickly Korfez, for example, was completed and I don't think I've ever seen anyone parse it.
But that's not really terribly surprising. ISA seems to remain the 'benchmark' for how awesome some players think they are. I realise that there are reasons for this, but nonetheless - regardless of the changes, being impressed by fast Infected Space runs died back when it was still called ISE and Scimitards could solo it in one minute and 50 seconds.
Korfez is one of the easy missions. If your build and piloting is optimal, Most of your time is spent flying than killing. Since you look at the ISA table but happen to refuse to look at the HSE table, There is an HSE table if you want a more challenging parse.
In HSE, You can bring in a specialize crew with tank, support ships you still DPS to kill stuff though, not unless you are in the Top Tier DPS who can bring 5 scimitar DPS builds which can share aggro, enough DPS, enough self heal, sufficient coordination.
The current fails do nothing to help the general population and should be removed...They do not make the stfs better they have crippled them
Again, what is with this general population? How sure are you you represent the general population or if even the general population needs the changes to be reverted back?
Because the regular forum dwellers/complainers say so?
How can you say it crippled STF? because you fail in PuGs? Wouldnt that be your fault? Either you cant carry the team or refuse to go to private channels?
If you say the number of queues, what you see in the Public queues, are just that public queues. Public queues do not represent the majority of the community. I see more instances in private than public queues. There is a private queue community if you want to finish STFs regardless if it is in private channels or competent fleets.
It seems like people are not thinking of one of the most important aspects of this change and why it is being done. The queues need to be viable. They need to be the main way people jump into these missions. Those who want things harder just don't see the need for the queues at all or think its current mostly-fail conditions are fine.
This game has never been an Everquest or WoW raid type game where you and fifty of your closest friends spend hours doing a mission. Especially since it went F2P, this is a casual game meant to use the queue system for quick missions with strangers. When this system broke down with the advent of DR, things have been out of whack ever since.
A few very prolific voices have been haranguing us with demands for more difficulty and even harder to fill queues. I do believe there should be elite versions of all the STFs for those people. I'm for having some accolade doorway to advanced showing you've done the mission on normal at least before attempting advanced.
When DR came out the dev team said Advanced would be approximately the same difficulty as the old elite. That did not come to pass. Advanced is currently harder than the old elite used to be. The dev team decided to go back to the optionals being optional and not being an auto-fail for the entire team. Some people are upset at this prospect. I am not. And fortunately, for all the back and forth and dozens of posts from the same people, this is what is going to happen. I look forward to it.
I used to be Shakkar with thousands of posts. My very identity was stolen from me so now I am originalshakkar, the original.
Again, what is with this general population? How sure are you you represent the general population or if even the general population needs the changes to be reverted back?
Because the regular forum dwellers/complainers say so?
How can you say it crippled STF? because you fail in PuGs? Wouldnt that be your fault? Either you cant carry the team or refuse to go to private channels?
If you say the number of queues, what you see in the Public queues, are just that public queues. Public queues do not represent the majority of the community. I see more instances in private than public queues. There is a private queue community if you want to finish STFs regardless if it is in private channels or competent fleets
Privite channels are worse than Pugs are...........A 2 minute stf is worse than a 2 minute fail for me..If DPS is your game roll with it , It has no interest for me
I like a long hard fight and I build my ships to tank and destroy the enemy without support unlike a dps build that cant survive with 4 other dps builds beside them.
I got a character in the dps channel..............I see a lot of trash talk Epeen and very few teams being made.............so I call bs on your statement that private qs outnumber pugs
If the 10k channel was actually 10k and not having 1 or 2 ....50kers in it.
it might be enjoyable but the 50k people do Qs in the 10k channel and that just ruins it
when my fleet isn't event crazy we do the stfs with ease.....cryptic spamming event after solo play event is getting on my last nerve though
Jellico....Engineer ground.....Da'val Romulan space Sci
Saphire.. Science ground......Ko'el Romulan space Tac
Leva........Tactical ground.....Koj Romulan space Eng
JJ-Verse will never be Canon or considered Lore...It will always be JJ-Verse
You guys keep getting hung up on discussion of objectives and gating and that nonsense when the real issue remains the enemies are overbuffed on advanced. Not just their HP, but also their damage output.
No one does good DPS playing defensively, but they have to because of the overbuffed enemies. You can't spam FAW, GW, or the other things that get you too much attention, not just from Borg, but from any other advanced group. How many people react to that by lowering weapon power and increasing shields/aux power for survivability or switching out damage improving consoles for consoles to add to their survivability?
But the Borg specifically have to get the OP tachyon beam nerfed hard. It was always more powerful than a player tachyon beam and now it is just absurd, even on normal it can strip shields completely.
But there is more to remember. How much did your shields go up from 50-60? 0. You have to upgrade your shields, and then the amount is a token increase and doesn't help at all against the Borg.
How much did your damage go up from 50-60? 0 until you upgrade your weapons. It is too bad those rare mats needed to upgrade come from advanced queues.
How much did your hull go up from 50-60? ~10000ish base hull, IF you're in a T5U or T6 ship. Anyone using an old T5 suffers there. But either way it doesn't really matter because you either outheal the damage or you die a little slower in a T5U/T6.
How much did your heals go up from 50-60? 0. You get no more skill points to spend, and may have maxed them out in any case.
STO survivability is and always has been a place of either having too much heals letting you survive infinitely, or not enough which kills you quickly. The damage model for the old elites was always screwy with the insane damage NPCs can do with certain abilities. Crank that up further with the scaling here and it just gets even worse for a broader spectrum of abilities. Our survivability did not increase any significant amount from 50-60. Combine this with a terrible UI that makes team healing frustrating and the general lack of attention most people have to the team window and cross healing, and it is a significant contributor to the increased fails in advanced.
So I just ran an ISN to grab a few screenshots of the Bridge Officer Reports windows - that are available after combat ends with the initial engagement...
Have to take out Generators to take out Transformers.
Aha, so we have to take out the Generators to take out the Transformers to take out the Gateway!
Now this - http://i.imgur.com/2B8G9ZP.png - imho, could do with some better wording to let folks know before hand that it is the Nanites that are going to be doing the healing. Course, once it happens - folks will know that's what happened.
It's all there. Game tells you what you need to do. Folks not looking is not the game not showing them.
So I just ran an ISN to grab a few screenshots of the Bridge Officer Reports windows - that are available after combat ends with the initial engagement...
Have to take out Generators to take out Transformers.
Aha, so we have to take out the Generators to take out the Transformers to take out the Gateway!
Now this - http://i.imgur.com/2B8G9ZP.png - imho, could do with some better wording to let folks know before hand that it is the Nanites that are going to be doing the healing. Course, once it happens - folks will know that's what happened.
It's all there. Game tells you what you need to do. Folks not looking is not the game not showing them.
I agree, but people don't read. If you look at what they've done in 'Uneasy Allies' where a boff literally tells you 'there's a door on the left' etc, it shows that people need to be spoon fed directions.
I suppose the solution would be the first time you do an STF, you get a briefing like you do in the undine and dyson bz's. The problem with implementing that would be how it would impact other players etc, so don't know how it could work.
If the team was frozen for 1 minute and usefull pop ups like those were used some may learn something , they do need better wording
but you cannot realistically expect people to read those under fire or when the team is going at full impulse to the next objective
You have what realistically in time to read them / 5 or 10 seconds at best
Jellico....Engineer ground.....Da'val Romulan space Sci
Saphire.. Science ground......Ko'el Romulan space Tac
Leva........Tactical ground.....Koj Romulan space Eng
JJ-Verse will never be Canon or considered Lore...It will always be JJ-Verse
I agree, but people don't read. If you look at what they've done in 'Uneasy Allies' where a boff literally tells you 'there's a door on the left' etc, it shows that people need to be spoon fed directions.
I suppose the solution would be the first time you do an STF, you get a briefing like you do in the undine and dyson bz's. The problem with implementing that would be how it would impact other players etc, so don't know how it could work.
It's one of the things where a short thing at the start could provide folks time to fix any loadout issues, get pets out, make sure everything is ready - survived the zoning in so to speak. Too long and it could get painful...folks tend not to have much patience.
But the spoon fed thing - it does get into what does Cryptic need to do, eh? Do we need big bouncing target indicators in Normal over the Generators that are replaced by a big bouncing target indicator over the Transformer...with a flyout message warning that it needs to be destroyed before the Nanites get in range - where like with the mine objectives on Kobali or the bombs in Uneasy Allies where a big flashing radius animation is dropped out to show when the Nanites will be in range?
Cause, well - that would kind of get into something perhaps for a Tutorial Tier...which is something that's been suggested in the past as well for a form of progressive gating.
Tutorial -> Normal -> Advanced -> Elite
Perhaps that could be done with the current Normal, converting it to Tutorial tier and adding all the markers, flyouts, and the rest. Then a new Normal could be created using the same mobs as Advanced (Spheres instead of Probes, Cubes instead of Spheres) with the difference being the scaled to 50 and scaled to 60.
In the end though, I just have a hard time seeing it as anything other than some folks just want to be able to leech VR mats and other rewards. Cause everything's there for them already...but it's like it's a wee bit of effort, and that wee bit is just a wee bit too much to ask of them. They'll put all sorts of effort into making excuses...but damn anybody that suggests they make the slightest effort toward being ready for any content.
Yup, the one serious, enduring, problematic mistake in DR was the changes to advanced queues. It's really done a lot to hurt the game, it's far and away the worst decision the developers have made and it's disconcerting that they refuse to admit it or amend it.
So uh, yeah, the Advanced queues they did for the launch of Delta Rising...they'd already started nerfing them into the ground before the end of the month. People are acting like they played on launch day and haven't played since.
You guys keep getting hung up on discussion of objectives and gating and that nonsense when the real issue remains the enemies are overbuffed on advanced. Not just their HP, but also their damage output.
No one does good DPS playing defensively, but they have to because of the overbuffed enemies. You can't spam FAW, GW, or the other things that get you too much attention, not just from Borg, but from any other advanced group. How many people react to that by lowering weapon power and increasing shields/aux power for survivability or switching out damage improving consoles for consoles to add to their survivability?
But the Borg specifically have to get the OP tachyon beam nerfed hard. It was always more powerful than a player tachyon beam and now it is just absurd, even on normal it can strip shields completely.
But there is more to remember. How much did your shields go up from 50-60? 0. You have to upgrade your shields, and then the amount is a token increase and doesn't help at all against the Borg.
How much did your damage go up from 50-60? 0 until you upgrade your weapons. It is too bad those rare mats needed to upgrade come from advanced queues.
How much did your hull go up from 50-60? ~10000ish base hull, IF you're in a T5U or T6 ship. Anyone using an old T5 suffers there. But either way it doesn't really matter because you either outheal the damage or you die a little slower in a T5U/T6.
How much did your heals go up from 50-60? 0. You get no more skill points to spend, and may have maxed them out in any case.
STO survivability is and always has been a place of either having too much heals letting you survive infinitely, or not enough which kills you quickly. The damage model for the old elites was always screwy with the insane damage NPCs can do with certain abilities. Crank that up further with the scaling here and it just gets even worse for a broader spectrum of abilities. Our survivability did not increase any significant amount from 50-60. Combine this with a terrible UI that makes team healing frustrating and the general lack of attention most people have to the team window and cross healing, and it is a significant contributor to the increased fails in advanced.
I do not agree
I fly a delta t-6 cruiser I lead the team take the heat and put out 15 to 20k DPS in infected in PUGs not pre made teams...but your right I do it without shields a lot of the time however I have the hull resists to survive without shields
I don't think the difficulty of the borg need to be lowered at all.........My T-5 Fleet Assualt was still a good ship but I like this t-6 better and the dps was close to the same 10 to 15k
cross healing .................you should never need that and who has the time to do it with the cross healing mechanics which are such total bs.................target lock and target heal should be separate............Everybody does not use pound the freaking spacebar
you don't have a optimized build for the new borg...........you can survive without being destroyed in a t-5u you just have to use different traits and skills now....Hull tanking is back in the game and shields are not for most non science ships...It really depends on whats available to you
ship/traits/skills/character/gear
Jellico....Engineer ground.....Da'val Romulan space Sci
Saphire.. Science ground......Ko'el Romulan space Tac
Leva........Tactical ground.....Koj Romulan space Eng
JJ-Verse will never be Canon or considered Lore...It will always be JJ-Verse
It's in Normal...that's the realistic expectation. You're treating it like they were in Advanced on a speed run...that's an unrealistic expectation.
Our debate was normal teaching folks how to do advanced wasn't it?
you also get the same pop ups in advanced if I am not mistaken with the same time problems to read the information
Its a poor briefing at best.....I mean really poor
The General says here is the briefing on our attack.......... Charge !
Jellico....Engineer ground.....Da'val Romulan space Sci
Saphire.. Science ground......Ko'el Romulan space Tac
Leva........Tactical ground.....Koj Romulan space Eng
JJ-Verse will never be Canon or considered Lore...It will always be JJ-Verse
Cause, well - that would kind of get into something perhaps for a Tutorial Tier...which is something that's been suggested in the past as well for a form of progressive gating.
Tutorial -> Normal -> Advanced -> Elite.
I still think we should have to complete Holodeck training simulations at SFA before we're allowed to do a specific STF. Janeway ran loads of simulations in Voyager before she boarded a cube, so it would fit into the immersion aspect.
No one does good DPS playing defensively, but they have to because of the overbuffed enemies. You can't spam FAW, GW, or the other things that get you too much attention, not just from Borg, but from any other advanced group. How many people react to that by lowering weapon power and increasing shields/aux power for survivability or switching out damage improving consoles for consoles to add to their survivability?
Glass cannons work when either of two conditions are met:
1) Their damage is so high that in the target's time to live the target can not deal enough damage to kill the glass cannon. In other words, if the glass cannon can always vape its target, it will always live.
2) There is a trinity, a tank to always take the aggro and a healer to always heal the splash damage.
1 has obvious issues.
2 requires the game to be designed that way.
If 2 is the case access to self heals and buffs will be limited for the tank and damage roles. Between engineering and science skills, everyone has access to hull and shield self heals. Not having even a single armor console (especially if you have access to Fleet two-in-one consoles) or shield capacity console (less important in ISA) is your choice, as is spending all your Boff skills on damage improving skills. But there is a cost to that choice, as you've pointed out, though there is also a cost to your damage for over-specializing as a dead ship does no damage after its warp core explodes.
This is my Risian Corvette. There are many like it, but this one is mine.
I still think we should have to complete Holodeck training simulations at SFA before we're allowed to do a specific STF. Janeway ran loads of simulations in Voyager before she boarded a cube, so it would fit into the immersion aspect.
Heh, I've always wondered why there weren't "courses" at the Academies for things. Missions that players could hit up to learn some basics/fundamentals and then some more advanced stuff. Some of the feedback one gets from playing the game can be extremely subtle and easy to miss.
The content we face while leveling doesn't increase in difficulty either...Hell, technically it gets easier since our gear improves while the mobs become more and more fodder to us. Somebody could level to 50 without spending any skill points, running balanced power, just using whatever random gear drops along the way, while using whatever random BOFF abilities they get as well, without knowing that they can use DOFFs, etc, etc, etc...and have that euphoric feeling going for them that they could put Kirk and Picard to shame with their mad skills.
It was one thing when it took longer to level, folks would hit up the queues on their way to endgame and not just at endgame...so they might get exposed to more things. But that changed, and it's just wham, bam, and like handing them a butter knife while pushing them out the helicopter and wishing them good luck.
Course, attempts at increasing difficulty as missions progressed met with very stiff resistance and they were nerfed into the ground. But was that just because players were left unprepared? Sure, everything was there that they could prepare themselves...but with this game being the game it is, should more have been done? Could more be done? Course, I've kind of found it funny how in a game where folks complain that exploration is missing they do so little exploration of the game itself.
What if there were training missions at the Academies as players leveled? Instead of just here go get a new ship, here go do these and then get your new ship. Something that could be skipped by those that had played through it if they like, but something that was there that could actually teach players stuff they might not know - with more taught every 10/5 levels. Same with DOFFs - here's your DOFFs, go have fun. What? Huh? How about a tutorial mission explaining some of what can be done there instead, yeah?
So there would actually be some progression going on there where players are being prepared for that progression.
And in a similar fashion, when it came time they were looking at hitting up queues - there would be simulations available for them to be run before hitting up that content.
I actually posted this idea the other day, but it didn't seem to get any attention.
The SFA holodecks exist already, so could easily act as gateways to tutorial missions.
Overtime you get to the next tier of ships, there could be an optional (that gives rewards worth getting), where you beam to SFA and do the tutorials. The most obvious would be to explain the next tier of boff abilities, seeing as they're unlocked from each tier of ship, but there should be others too.
The premise for tutorials is already in game, and the immersion factor works too. There could even be a kobayashi maru test before you graduate or something to add more emphasis to the holodeck area of SFA.
The main thing is that the game is complex, and people (both new and veteran), often struggle to grasp some of the basics. By giving people more in-game access to guides and tutorials, it would benefit everyone and then public queues would probably start to fill up again.
I fly a delta t-6 cruiser I lead the team take the heat and put out 15 to 20k DPS in infected in PUGs not pre made teams...but your right I do it without shields a lot of the time however I have the hull resists to survive without shields
Well I sure hope you can hull tank in a cruiser. Not all of us fly cruisers though.
I don't think the difficulty of the borg need to be lowered at all.........My T-5 Fleet Assualt was still a good ship but I like this t-6 better and the dps was close to the same 10 to 15k
And? None of that counters what I said, that the Borg being dramatically empowered doesn't force other people to lose DPS to survive, or do so little that they don't even have to tank.
cross healing .................you should never need that and who has the time to do it with the cross healing mechanics which are such total bs.................target lock and target heal should be separate............Everybody does not use pound the freaking spacebar
Much as I agree with the terrible mechanics, cross healing is something that has always been expected in this game. The fact is that people should be healing whoever is taking the damage, but this is a definite failing of the players and the UI, because they don't.
you don't have a optimized build for the new borg...........you can survive without being destroyed in a t-5u you just have to use different traits and skills now....Hull tanking is back in the game and shields are not for most non science ships...It really depends on whats available to you
ship/traits/skills/character/gear
Yeah that is precisely why I stopped doing ISA with my science ship. My shields are worthless, and I don't have the engineering slots to hull tank the amount of aggro I get. We can't guarantee someone with a hull tanking cruiser is going to be in a PUG.
Old elite, that ship worked great, same loadout, could tank what I pulled short of the instagib torpedoes, and contributed with damage and grav wells. Now with mostly mk 14 equipment, it is worthless. Things are not being scaled properly, and other changes are severely detrimental to the playability of my build. So I'm forced to either rebuild the entire ship into a hull tanking monstrosity, which might be somewhat possible, yet utterly stupid in a science ship, or just say forget it.
How many other people have made that same decision? These are not the old elites slightly buffed.
But having given some other advanced queues the chance, the problem isn't limited to the Borg stfs. All of them have some hugely buffed damage output that isn't appropriate at all for the lack of scaling we have in player abilities from 50+. This is compounded by their massive HP pools, because they can't be brought down before they do massive damage.
As someone else said, the empty queues is point in fact of the failure of what DR did to the STFs. No they aren't the same as they were at DR launch, but they are still terribly over scaled.
Or just have the holodeck in the ship interior. That'll add one more use to ship interiors. Another idea to help make players aware of objectives is audible warnings, either from your ship's computer or from a crew member, or even an external NPC.
However the only change I would love to see..And I know I wont see it is when a player is destroyed they are ejected from the STF at that point and another player in the Q replaces them
I would love to see that too... talk about a quick way to grab some rewards when someone is too close to that final tac cube when it pops.
They need more in the game to punish the players....
Yeah that is precisely why I stopped doing ISA with my science ship. My shields are worthless, and I don't have the engineering slots to hull tank the amount of aggro I get.
Are you talking Console or BOFF slots? Cause I'd be able to understand BOFF slots but not Console slots. Some of those Sci boats with no more than a Lt Eng BOFF Station (Hell, even the Escorts) just drive me crazy...feel naked without at least three Eng BOFF slots. Consoles on the other hand...er...with the way diminishing returns work, the ability to slot resistance consoles outside of Eng slots in combination with skills and the manner in which abilities buff it...that I wouldn't understand.
It sounds like you've identified the problem, but what steps did you take to try to address it? That something you'd be open to discussing...the options one would have for going, "teehee, that tickles" to the Borg?
Player A) 47,518 (49.956%)
Player Me) 15,182 (16.047%)
Player C) 13,261 (13.83%)
Player D) 9,756 (10.12%)
Player E) 9,899 (10.046%)
Attacks In %
Player A) 11.824% Player Me) 42.986%
Player C) 24.399%
Player D) 7.214%
Player E) 13.577%
Damage In (%) / BaseDamage In (%)
Player A) 92,039 (5.526%) / 248,982 (4.574%) Player Me) 718,346 (43.126%) / 2,539,644 (46.656%)
Player C) 341,161 (20.482%) / 1,313,601 (24.132%)
Player D) 116,757 (7.01%) / 320,672 (5.891%)
Player E) 397,388 (23.857%) / 1,020,421 (18.746%)
Heal Out (%) / Heal In (%)
Player A) 60,069 (3.16%) / 74,660 (3.94%) Player Me) 957,816 (50.38%) / 779,234 (41.121%)
Player C) 476,934 (25.086%) / 568,727 (30.012%)
Player D) 90,276 (4.748%) / 169,991 (8.971%)
Player E) 316,077 (16.625%) / 302,386 (15.957%)
No doubt Player A doing the damage they did made it easier for the rest of the group - dead stuff doesn't shoot back. Notice how few hits Player A took though, eh? They were in a Sheshar, there were three other cruisers, and my D'Kyr.
Heh, Player E almost broke 10k with a mega rainbow build - Neutronic Torp, Kinetic Cutting Beam, Antiproton Array, Nukara Hyper Tetryon DBB, Nukara Web Mine, Romulan Plasma Array (probably Experimental), Experimental Proton Weapon, Gravimetric Photon Torp...hrmm, as an Eng at that. Not sure which Odyssey they were flying.
Hrmm, so that group...
Player A) Sheshar
Player Me) D'Kyr
Player C) T6 Galaxy (don't know if it was Fleet)
Player D) T6 Galaxy (don't know if it was Fleet)
Player E) Odyssey variant
Hrmm, but anyway...somewhere between the overly defensive build I had there and something like the following...
...I'm sure folks can find something to make them happy in a Sci Vessel.
Heh, cause there were all sorts of things wrong with my build and I flew it like I'd never flown a ship before.../facepalm. Heck, even forgot to switch out the Talaxian Eng for the Nausicaan Eng...just threw it together and off I went...wheeeee.
Heh, Player E almost broke 10k with a mega rainbow build - Neutronic Torp, Kinetic Cutting Beam, Antiproton Array, Nukara Hyper Tetryon DBB, Nukara Web Mine, Romulan Plasma Array (probably Experimental), Experimental Proton Weapon, Gravimetric Photon Torp...hrmm, as an Eng at that. Not sure which Odyssey they were flying.
.
Maybe they did. The last that I heard the Web Mine's damage is not credited to the player that launched it. If that is still the case then (s)he is due a few more K to that DPS number.
No they aren't the same as they were at DR launch, but they are still terribly over scaled.
That probably won't change. They're trying to push the upgrade system, despite it being unattractive. They refuse to make upgrading more attractive, so instead they make STFs more miserable.
And now they're making advanced STFs auto-wins. I could easily seem them cranking up mob HP/DPS even further, to bring the success rate below 100%.
For what it's worth, ANRA looks as empty as ever. I want to say it took me less time to get a match before the changes, than it does now on the rare occasion I even bother queuing up for it.
"Tolerance and apathy are the last virtues of a dying society." - Aristotle
Are you talking Console or BOFF slots? Cause I'd be able to understand BOFF slots but not Console slots. Some of those Sci boats with no more than a Lt Eng BOFF Station (Hell, even the Escorts) just drive me crazy...feel naked without at least three Eng BOFF slots. Consoles on the other hand...er...with the way diminishing returns work, the ability to slot resistance consoles outside of Eng slots in combination with skills and the manner in which abilities buff it...that I wouldn't understand.
It sounds like you've identified the problem, but what steps did you take to try to address it? That something you'd be open to discussing...the options one would have for going, "teehee, that tickles" to the Borg?
Maybe they could share their experience with what they're doing, eh?
Only 2 engineer boff slots. But console slots are the other problem I was talking about. I switch some out and I'm going to lower DPS for more survivability.
I am probably going to add some more resist consoles, and if that isn't enough, too bad. I won't bother. I can just do Borg STFs with a cruiser captain if I feel like risking the griefers. But they don't feel worth the effort whatever ship it is.
Diminishing returns, though, that doesn't really exist. The math is a bit difficult to understand, but if we talk about say, neutronium consoles, each one adds the same survivability as the next. The damage resist % is derived from flat bonuses that the consoles give, but ends up making every armor console as effective for survivability as the next. The reason it works that way is because if it didn't, if each added a flat % resist, then the more you have, the more effective the next one is. A dev explained it all years ago so it is probably lost deep in some archived post.
For what it's worth, ANRA looks as empty as ever. I want to say it took me less time to get a match before the changes, than it does now on the rare occasion I even bother queuing up for it.
Most people are leveling delta recruits, which I am sure is hurting the queues allot.
Anyway onto infected and other queues. They were quite populated before DR. A few people wanted them to be harder which I can understand, so they added Elite for them. Problem solved, TRIBBLE with the mechanics of advanced wasn't needed. And there is nothing wrong with having higher HP/damage for higher tier gear, but otherwise they should have left them the same. Just roll them back (mechanically) and watch them fill up and many people return to the game, it's that simple.
Comments
Does normal fail when the nanite spheres heal the transformer ? NO.....Do the players even know that it happened..NO
How do they know to take out the generators together ?
Normal does nothing to prepare those players for advanced.........Nothing at all
If they keep the mobs strong 10 or so respawns might let them know there in over their heads
What we have is not working...We have both posted better ways to educate players and having a qualifying mission to even enter a advanced missioin which would be the right way
The Fails arnt helping .................And they need to go
Saphire.. Science ground......Ko'el Romulan space Tac
Leva........Tactical ground.....Koj Romulan space Eng
JJ-Verse will never be Canon or considered Lore...It will always be JJ-Verse
Not to mention the language barrier. Google Translate does a crappy job translating "I'm a little teapot..." into Turkish.
The Optional fails.
Yes, because the Objective shows as failed in the window. There's also the message about scanning the Nanites. The Transformer heals. Lets players know in all sorts of ways.
You pop the first Generator and the Nanites spawn. The Nanites begin moving toward the Transformer. If you need to pop the other three Generators, that's less time you have to pop the Transformer before the Nanites get there. Therefore, popping the Generators together as much as possible will allow players the most time to focus down the Transformer.
Simple observation and reasoning.
Except everything that it does.
No it does not
A player has a few seconds before being in combat...............almost non stop...........not many people will read a pop up covering there screens when taking damage
If it did we wouldn't have these problems in advanced would we ?
If they , Cryptic insists on a fail conditition it should be the borg called in reinforcements of 4 Tac cubes and a Diamond
But no normals do nothing to prepare players for advanced except show players what borg look like
Saphire.. Science ground......Ko'el Romulan space Tac
Leva........Tactical ground.....Koj Romulan space Eng
JJ-Verse will never be Canon or considered Lore...It will always be JJ-Verse
Korfez is one of the easy missions. If your build and piloting is optimal, Most of your time is spent flying than killing. Since you look at the ISA table but happen to refuse to look at the HSE table, There is an HSE table if you want a more challenging parse.
In HSE, You can bring in a specialize crew with tank, support ships you still DPS to kill stuff though, not unless you are in the Top Tier DPS who can bring 5 scimitar DPS builds which can share aggro, enough DPS, enough self heal, sufficient coordination.
Yes. You know us "elitists" want more challenging missions from the threads we make from wanting oringinal NWS to more TeamSpeak base missions.
Again, what is with this general population? How sure are you you represent the general population or if even the general population needs the changes to be reverted back?
Because the regular forum dwellers/complainers say so?
How can you say it crippled STF? because you fail in PuGs? Wouldnt that be your fault? Either you cant carry the team or refuse to go to private channels?
If you say the number of queues, what you see in the Public queues, are just that public queues. Public queues do not represent the majority of the community. I see more instances in private than public queues. There is a private queue community if you want to finish STFs regardless if it is in private channels or competent fleets.
This game has never been an Everquest or WoW raid type game where you and fifty of your closest friends spend hours doing a mission. Especially since it went F2P, this is a casual game meant to use the queue system for quick missions with strangers. When this system broke down with the advent of DR, things have been out of whack ever since.
A few very prolific voices have been haranguing us with demands for more difficulty and even harder to fill queues. I do believe there should be elite versions of all the STFs for those people. I'm for having some accolade doorway to advanced showing you've done the mission on normal at least before attempting advanced.
When DR came out the dev team said Advanced would be approximately the same difficulty as the old elite. That did not come to pass. Advanced is currently harder than the old elite used to be. The dev team decided to go back to the optionals being optional and not being an auto-fail for the entire team. Some people are upset at this prospect. I am not. And fortunately, for all the back and forth and dozens of posts from the same people, this is what is going to happen. I look forward to it.
Because the regular forum dwellers/complainers say so?
How can you say it crippled STF? because you fail in PuGs? Wouldnt that be your fault? Either you cant carry the team or refuse to go to private channels?
If you say the number of queues, what you see in the Public queues, are just that public queues. Public queues do not represent the majority of the community. I see more instances in private than public queues. There is a private queue community if you want to finish STFs regardless if it is in private channels or competent fleets
Privite channels are worse than Pugs are...........A 2 minute stf is worse than a 2 minute fail for me..If DPS is your game roll with it , It has no interest for me
I like a long hard fight and I build my ships to tank and destroy the enemy without support unlike a dps build that cant survive with 4 other dps builds beside them.
I got a character in the dps channel..............I see a lot of trash talk Epeen and very few teams being made.............so I call bs on your statement that private qs outnumber pugs
If the 10k channel was actually 10k and not having 1 or 2 ....50kers in it.
it might be enjoyable but the 50k people do Qs in the 10k channel and that just ruins it
when my fleet isn't event crazy we do the stfs with ease.....cryptic spamming event after solo play event is getting on my last nerve though
Saphire.. Science ground......Ko'el Romulan space Tac
Leva........Tactical ground.....Koj Romulan space Eng
JJ-Verse will never be Canon or considered Lore...It will always be JJ-Verse
No one does good DPS playing defensively, but they have to because of the overbuffed enemies. You can't spam FAW, GW, or the other things that get you too much attention, not just from Borg, but from any other advanced group. How many people react to that by lowering weapon power and increasing shields/aux power for survivability or switching out damage improving consoles for consoles to add to their survivability?
But the Borg specifically have to get the OP tachyon beam nerfed hard. It was always more powerful than a player tachyon beam and now it is just absurd, even on normal it can strip shields completely.
But there is more to remember. How much did your shields go up from 50-60? 0. You have to upgrade your shields, and then the amount is a token increase and doesn't help at all against the Borg.
How much did your damage go up from 50-60? 0 until you upgrade your weapons. It is too bad those rare mats needed to upgrade come from advanced queues.
How much did your hull go up from 50-60? ~10000ish base hull, IF you're in a T5U or T6 ship. Anyone using an old T5 suffers there. But either way it doesn't really matter because you either outheal the damage or you die a little slower in a T5U/T6.
How much did your heals go up from 50-60? 0. You get no more skill points to spend, and may have maxed them out in any case.
STO survivability is and always has been a place of either having too much heals letting you survive infinitely, or not enough which kills you quickly. The damage model for the old elites was always screwy with the insane damage NPCs can do with certain abilities. Crank that up further with the scaling here and it just gets even worse for a broader spectrum of abilities. Our survivability did not increase any significant amount from 50-60. Combine this with a terrible UI that makes team healing frustrating and the general lack of attention most people have to the team window and cross healing, and it is a significant contributor to the increased fails in advanced.
Gateway Analysis - http://i.imgur.com/bqNmYEs.png
Have to attack other stuff first.
Nanite Transformer Analysis - http://i.imgur.com/k1JrW6C.png
Have to take out Transformers to take out Gateway.
Nanite Generator Analysis - http://i.imgur.com/EEG0SLx.png
Have to take out Generators to take out Transformers.
Aha, so we have to take out the Generators to take out the Transformers to take out the Gateway!
Now this - http://i.imgur.com/2B8G9ZP.png - imho, could do with some better wording to let folks know before hand that it is the Nanites that are going to be doing the healing. Course, once it happens - folks will know that's what happened.
It's all there. Game tells you what you need to do. Folks not looking is not the game not showing them.
I agree, but people don't read. If you look at what they've done in 'Uneasy Allies' where a boff literally tells you 'there's a door on the left' etc, it shows that people need to be spoon fed directions.
I suppose the solution would be the first time you do an STF, you get a briefing like you do in the undine and dyson bz's. The problem with implementing that would be how it would impact other players etc, so don't know how it could work.
but you cannot realistically expect people to read those under fire or when the team is going at full impulse to the next objective
You have what realistically in time to read them / 5 or 10 seconds at best
Saphire.. Science ground......Ko'el Romulan space Tac
Leva........Tactical ground.....Koj Romulan space Eng
JJ-Verse will never be Canon or considered Lore...It will always be JJ-Verse
It's in Normal...that's the realistic expectation. You're treating it like they were in Advanced on a speed run...that's an unrealistic expectation.
It's one of the things where a short thing at the start could provide folks time to fix any loadout issues, get pets out, make sure everything is ready - survived the zoning in so to speak. Too long and it could get painful...folks tend not to have much patience.
But the spoon fed thing - it does get into what does Cryptic need to do, eh? Do we need big bouncing target indicators in Normal over the Generators that are replaced by a big bouncing target indicator over the Transformer...with a flyout message warning that it needs to be destroyed before the Nanites get in range - where like with the mine objectives on Kobali or the bombs in Uneasy Allies where a big flashing radius animation is dropped out to show when the Nanites will be in range?
Cause, well - that would kind of get into something perhaps for a Tutorial Tier...which is something that's been suggested in the past as well for a form of progressive gating.
Tutorial -> Normal -> Advanced -> Elite
Perhaps that could be done with the current Normal, converting it to Tutorial tier and adding all the markers, flyouts, and the rest. Then a new Normal could be created using the same mobs as Advanced (Spheres instead of Probes, Cubes instead of Spheres) with the difference being the scaled to 50 and scaled to 60.
In the end though, I just have a hard time seeing it as anything other than some folks just want to be able to leech VR mats and other rewards. Cause everything's there for them already...but it's like it's a wee bit of effort, and that wee bit is just a wee bit too much to ask of them. They'll put all sorts of effort into making excuses...but damn anybody that suggests they make the slightest effort toward being ready for any content.
So uh, yeah, the Advanced queues they did for the launch of Delta Rising...they'd already started nerfing them into the ground before the end of the month. People are acting like they played on launch day and haven't played since.
I do not agree
I fly a delta t-6 cruiser I lead the team take the heat and put out 15 to 20k DPS in infected in PUGs not pre made teams...but your right I do it without shields a lot of the time however I have the hull resists to survive without shields
I don't think the difficulty of the borg need to be lowered at all.........My T-5 Fleet Assualt was still a good ship but I like this t-6 better and the dps was close to the same 10 to 15k
cross healing .................you should never need that and who has the time to do it with the cross healing mechanics which are such total bs.................target lock and target heal should be separate............Everybody does not use pound the freaking spacebar
you don't have a optimized build for the new borg...........you can survive without being destroyed in a t-5u you just have to use different traits and skills now....Hull tanking is back in the game and shields are not for most non science ships...It really depends on whats available to you
ship/traits/skills/character/gear
Saphire.. Science ground......Ko'el Romulan space Tac
Leva........Tactical ground.....Koj Romulan space Eng
JJ-Verse will never be Canon or considered Lore...It will always be JJ-Verse
Saphire.. Science ground......Ko'el Romulan space Tac
Leva........Tactical ground.....Koj Romulan space Eng
JJ-Verse will never be Canon or considered Lore...It will always be JJ-Verse
I still think we should have to complete Holodeck training simulations at SFA before we're allowed to do a specific STF. Janeway ran loads of simulations in Voyager before she boarded a cube, so it would fit into the immersion aspect.
Glass cannons work when either of two conditions are met:
1) Their damage is so high that in the target's time to live the target can not deal enough damage to kill the glass cannon. In other words, if the glass cannon can always vape its target, it will always live.
2) There is a trinity, a tank to always take the aggro and a healer to always heal the splash damage.
1 has obvious issues.
2 requires the game to be designed that way.
If 2 is the case access to self heals and buffs will be limited for the tank and damage roles. Between engineering and science skills, everyone has access to hull and shield self heals. Not having even a single armor console (especially if you have access to Fleet two-in-one consoles) or shield capacity console (less important in ISA) is your choice, as is spending all your Boff skills on damage improving skills. But there is a cost to that choice, as you've pointed out, though there is also a cost to your damage for over-specializing as a dead ship does no damage after its warp core explodes.
Heh, I've always wondered why there weren't "courses" at the Academies for things. Missions that players could hit up to learn some basics/fundamentals and then some more advanced stuff. Some of the feedback one gets from playing the game can be extremely subtle and easy to miss.
The content we face while leveling doesn't increase in difficulty either...Hell, technically it gets easier since our gear improves while the mobs become more and more fodder to us. Somebody could level to 50 without spending any skill points, running balanced power, just using whatever random gear drops along the way, while using whatever random BOFF abilities they get as well, without knowing that they can use DOFFs, etc, etc, etc...and have that euphoric feeling going for them that they could put Kirk and Picard to shame with their mad skills.
It was one thing when it took longer to level, folks would hit up the queues on their way to endgame and not just at endgame...so they might get exposed to more things. But that changed, and it's just wham, bam, and like handing them a butter knife while pushing them out the helicopter and wishing them good luck.
Course, attempts at increasing difficulty as missions progressed met with very stiff resistance and they were nerfed into the ground. But was that just because players were left unprepared? Sure, everything was there that they could prepare themselves...but with this game being the game it is, should more have been done? Could more be done? Course, I've kind of found it funny how in a game where folks complain that exploration is missing they do so little exploration of the game itself.
What if there were training missions at the Academies as players leveled? Instead of just here go get a new ship, here go do these and then get your new ship. Something that could be skipped by those that had played through it if they like, but something that was there that could actually teach players stuff they might not know - with more taught every 10/5 levels. Same with DOFFs - here's your DOFFs, go have fun. What? Huh? How about a tutorial mission explaining some of what can be done there instead, yeah?
So there would actually be some progression going on there where players are being prepared for that progression.
And in a similar fashion, when it came time they were looking at hitting up queues - there would be simulations available for them to be run before hitting up that content.
The SFA holodecks exist already, so could easily act as gateways to tutorial missions.
Overtime you get to the next tier of ships, there could be an optional (that gives rewards worth getting), where you beam to SFA and do the tutorials. The most obvious would be to explain the next tier of boff abilities, seeing as they're unlocked from each tier of ship, but there should be others too.
The premise for tutorials is already in game, and the immersion factor works too. There could even be a kobayashi maru test before you graduate or something to add more emphasis to the holodeck area of SFA.
The main thing is that the game is complex, and people (both new and veteran), often struggle to grasp some of the basics. By giving people more in-game access to guides and tutorials, it would benefit everyone and then public queues would probably start to fill up again.
Well I sure hope you can hull tank in a cruiser. Not all of us fly cruisers though.
And? None of that counters what I said, that the Borg being dramatically empowered doesn't force other people to lose DPS to survive, or do so little that they don't even have to tank.
Much as I agree with the terrible mechanics, cross healing is something that has always been expected in this game. The fact is that people should be healing whoever is taking the damage, but this is a definite failing of the players and the UI, because they don't.
Yeah that is precisely why I stopped doing ISA with my science ship. My shields are worthless, and I don't have the engineering slots to hull tank the amount of aggro I get. We can't guarantee someone with a hull tanking cruiser is going to be in a PUG.
Old elite, that ship worked great, same loadout, could tank what I pulled short of the instagib torpedoes, and contributed with damage and grav wells. Now with mostly mk 14 equipment, it is worthless. Things are not being scaled properly, and other changes are severely detrimental to the playability of my build. So I'm forced to either rebuild the entire ship into a hull tanking monstrosity, which might be somewhat possible, yet utterly stupid in a science ship, or just say forget it.
How many other people have made that same decision? These are not the old elites slightly buffed.
But having given some other advanced queues the chance, the problem isn't limited to the Borg stfs. All of them have some hugely buffed damage output that isn't appropriate at all for the lack of scaling we have in player abilities from 50+. This is compounded by their massive HP pools, because they can't be brought down before they do massive damage.
As someone else said, the empty queues is point in fact of the failure of what DR did to the STFs. No they aren't the same as they were at DR launch, but they are still terribly over scaled.
| USS Curiosity - Pathfinder | USS Rift - Eternal |
The Science Ship Build Thread - Share your Sci Ship builds here!
I would love to see that too... talk about a quick way to grab some rewards when someone is too close to that final tac cube when it pops.
They need more in the game to punish the players....
Captain Ariel Trueheart Department of Temporal Investigations
U.S.S. Valkyrie - NCC 991701
=/\= ================================= =/\=
Delta Rising wasn't enough for you?
Are you talking Console or BOFF slots? Cause I'd be able to understand BOFF slots but not Console slots. Some of those Sci boats with no more than a Lt Eng BOFF Station (Hell, even the Escorts) just drive me crazy...feel naked without at least three Eng BOFF slots. Consoles on the other hand...er...with the way diminishing returns work, the ability to slot resistance consoles outside of Eng slots in combination with skills and the manner in which abilities buff it...that I wouldn't understand.
It sounds like you've identified the problem, but what steps did you take to try to address it? That something you'd be open to discussing...the options one would have for going, "teehee, that tickles" to the Borg?
Cause there are guys talking T5+ later Sci Vessels in this thread right now: http://sto-forum.perfectworld.com/showthread.php?t=1425931
Maybe they could share their experience with what they're doing, eh?
Here's the build: http://skillplanner.stoacademy.com/?build=kdyrdkyr_5343
DPS (%)
Player A) 47,518 (49.956%)
Player Me) 15,182 (16.047%)
Player C) 13,261 (13.83%)
Player D) 9,756 (10.12%)
Player E) 9,899 (10.046%)
Attacks In %
Player A) 11.824%
Player Me) 42.986%
Player C) 24.399%
Player D) 7.214%
Player E) 13.577%
Damage In (%) / BaseDamage In (%)
Player A) 92,039 (5.526%) / 248,982 (4.574%)
Player Me) 718,346 (43.126%) / 2,539,644 (46.656%)
Player C) 341,161 (20.482%) / 1,313,601 (24.132%)
Player D) 116,757 (7.01%) / 320,672 (5.891%)
Player E) 397,388 (23.857%) / 1,020,421 (18.746%)
Heal Out (%) / Heal In (%)
Player A) 60,069 (3.16%) / 74,660 (3.94%)
Player Me) 957,816 (50.38%) / 779,234 (41.121%)
Player C) 476,934 (25.086%) / 568,727 (30.012%)
Player D) 90,276 (4.748%) / 169,991 (8.971%)
Player E) 316,077 (16.625%) / 302,386 (15.957%)
No doubt Player A doing the damage they did made it easier for the rest of the group - dead stuff doesn't shoot back. Notice how few hits Player A took though, eh? They were in a Sheshar, there were three other cruisers, and my D'Kyr.
Heh, Player E almost broke 10k with a mega rainbow build - Neutronic Torp, Kinetic Cutting Beam, Antiproton Array, Nukara Hyper Tetryon DBB, Nukara Web Mine, Romulan Plasma Array (probably Experimental), Experimental Proton Weapon, Gravimetric Photon Torp...hrmm, as an Eng at that. Not sure which Odyssey they were flying.
Hrmm, so that group...
Player A) Sheshar
Player Me) D'Kyr
Player C) T6 Galaxy (don't know if it was Fleet)
Player D) T6 Galaxy (don't know if it was Fleet)
Player E) Odyssey variant
Hrmm, but anyway...somewhere between the overly defensive build I had there and something like the following...
...I'm sure folks can find something to make them happy in a Sci Vessel.
Heh, cause there were all sorts of things wrong with my build and I flew it like I'd never flown a ship before.../facepalm. Heck, even forgot to switch out the Talaxian Eng for the Nausicaan Eng...just threw it together and off I went...wheeeee.
Maybe they did. The last that I heard the Web Mine's damage is not credited to the player that launched it. If that is still the case then (s)he is due a few more K to that DPS number.
And now they're making advanced STFs auto-wins. I could easily seem them cranking up mob HP/DPS even further, to bring the success rate below 100%.
For what it's worth, ANRA looks as empty as ever. I want to say it took me less time to get a match before the changes, than it does now on the rare occasion I even bother queuing up for it.
Only 2 engineer boff slots. But console slots are the other problem I was talking about. I switch some out and I'm going to lower DPS for more survivability.
I am probably going to add some more resist consoles, and if that isn't enough, too bad. I won't bother. I can just do Borg STFs with a cruiser captain if I feel like risking the griefers. But they don't feel worth the effort whatever ship it is.
Diminishing returns, though, that doesn't really exist. The math is a bit difficult to understand, but if we talk about say, neutronium consoles, each one adds the same survivability as the next. The damage resist % is derived from flat bonuses that the consoles give, but ends up making every armor console as effective for survivability as the next. The reason it works that way is because if it didn't, if each added a flat % resist, then the more you have, the more effective the next one is. A dev explained it all years ago so it is probably lost deep in some archived post.
Most people are leveling delta recruits, which I am sure is hurting the queues allot.
Anyway onto infected and other queues. They were quite populated before DR. A few people wanted them to be harder which I can understand, so they added Elite for them. Problem solved, TRIBBLE with the mechanics of advanced wasn't needed. And there is nothing wrong with having higher HP/damage for higher tier gear, but otherwise they should have left them the same. Just roll them back (mechanically) and watch them fill up and many people return to the game, it's that simple.