Well I sure hope you can hull tank in a cruiser. Not all of us fly cruisers though.
And? None of that counters what I said, that the Borg being dramatically empowered doesn't force other people to lose DPS to survive, or do so little that they don't even have to tank.
Much as I agree with the terrible mechanics, cross healing is something that has always been expected in this game. The fact is that people should be healing whoever is taking the damage, but this is a definite failing of the players and the UI, because they don't.
Yeah that is precisely why I stopped doing ISA with my science ship. My shields are worthless, and I don't have the engineering slots to hull tank the amount of aggro I get. We can't guarantee someone with a hull tanking cruiser is going to be in a PUG.
Old elite, that ship worked great, same loadout, could tank what I pulled short of the instagib torpedoes, and contributed with damage and grav wells. Now with mostly mk 14 equipment, it is worthless. Things are not being scaled properly, and other changes are severely detrimental to the playability of my build. So I'm forced to either rebuild the entire ship into a hull tanking monstrosity, which might be somewhat possible, yet utterly stupid in a science ship, or just say forget it.
How many other people have made that same decision? These are not the old elites slightly buffed.
But having given some other advanced queues the chance, the problem isn't limited to the Borg stfs. All of them have some hugely buffed damage output that isn't appropriate at all for the lack of scaling we have in player abilities from 50+. This is compounded by their massive HP pools, because they can't be brought down before they do massive damage.
As someone else said, the empty queues is point in fact of the failure of what DR did to the STFs. No they aren't the same as they were at DR launch, but they are still terribly over scaled.
I do quite well in escorts in the borg STfs too but there labor intensive for me and exhausting to fly right over a period of time for me so I don't use them a great deal............I tank with them and do fine dps but I don't like to fly them for a long period of time.
Science ships .............. I just flat don't like them mainly for canon and rp reasons , But that's my own personal choice and anyone who wants to fly them has my respect. The T-5u Nebula I do like
Virus dancer and a few other posters around can give you some good advice on making a science ship work and I defer that to them.
Advanced STF/s general advanced Q's push DPS hard forcing players to upgrade weapons to mk-14 to get the same level of performance you used to get with mk-12s in the old elite's...well almost :P
Geko stated that his test ships has 15 crit chance and 200 crit Sev as testers for the advanced Q's So you can see what your up against
personally I call this a bad test group because it pretty much makes romulans the testers using antiprotons critx3 or 4 and there probably in scimitars as well but he didn't say that
I cheated on my science ships and put 5 mk-14 critDx3 crit H antiprotons on it with 4/3/2 mk-14 epic tac consoles depending on the ship just to level them up for the traits..Then retired them
Jellico....Engineer ground.....Da'val Romulan space Sci
Saphire.. Science ground......Ko'el Romulan space Tac
Leva........Tactical ground.....Koj Romulan space Eng
JJ-Verse will never be Canon or considered Lore...It will always be JJ-Verse
Privite channels are worse than Pugs are...........A 2 minute stf is worse than a 2 minute fail for me..If DPS is your game roll with it , It has no interest for me
I like a long hard fight and I build my ships to tank and destroy the enemy without support unlike a dps build that cant survive with 4 other dps builds beside them.
I got a character in the dps channel..............I see a lot of trash talk Epeen and very few teams being made.............so I call bs on your statement that private qs outnumber pugs
If the 10k channel was actually 10k and not having 1 or 2 ....50kers in it.
it might be enjoyable but the 50k people do Qs in the 10k channel and that just ruins it
when my fleet isn't event crazy we do the stfs with ease.....cryptic spamming event after solo play event is getting on my last nerve though
You apparently dont know what you are saying. Because basing high DPS players tank on ISA DPS random channel run is a bad way to go. Since a high DPSer will squeeze every ounce of their DPS in ISA because their testing their DPS not their tanking capabilities but mostly likely will not bring that same build in HSE.
If you want gimped runs in ISA, I suggest you purposely gimp yourself in T1 Ship to make things longer and harder for yourself. Otherwise go for harder missions like HSE since you are claiming you are a "tank."
However, DPS is directional to the pilot skill. A competent tank will most like most do 30k+ DPS in ISA. That means knowing when to buff, which position you are at, no to mash that spacebar or even if the build is optimal regardless if you are tac/eng/sci.
Diminishing returns, though, that doesn't really exist. The math is a bit difficult to understand, but if we talk about say, neutronium consoles, each one adds the same survivability as the next. The damage resist % is derived from flat bonuses that the consoles give, but ends up making every armor console as effective for survivability as the next. The reason it works that way is because if it didn't, if each added a flat % resist, then the more you have, the more effective the next one is. A dev explained it all years ago so it is probably lost deep in some archived post.
Yeah, uh...no. Each console will add the same amount of Damage Resistance Rating...but in the conversion from Damage Resistance Rating to Damage Resistance, you lose out.
Say you had a single Rare Mk XI Neutronium. As long as you had no other DRR in play, the +17.5 DRR that R11 Neut added would provide 14.85% DR. You've already lost out in the conversion.
If you add a second R11 Neut, it's not going to add another 14.85% DR. Adding the second will take you to 25.69% DR. That second one added 10.84% DR.
Neither of the consoles provided their full +17.5 DRR to your DR.
Say you add a third R11 Neut...the third one will add 8.15% taking you to 33.84% DR
Damage Resistance (from adding positive DRR or applying negative DRR in the form of buffs) suffers from diminishing returns.
Tac consoles? Nope. Sci consoles? Nope. Pretty much everything else in the game? Nope. Damage Resistance? Yep.
Like that build I posted...
9 Starship Hull Plating: +12.6 Energy DRR
G14 Bounty Hunter's Friend: +37.5 Energy DRR
G14 Exotic Particle Field Exciter: +50 Kinetic DRR
Energy Accolades: +2 DRR
Kinetic Accolade: +2 DRR
So that's +52.1 Energy and +52 Kinetic...but my listed Damage Resists are the following:
Energy 33.7%
Kinetic 33.6%
Those are the tooltip rounded numbers....
Energy 33.68468%
Kinetic 33.64376%
...would be the numbers from the formula.
Neither is getting the +52.1/52 from the DRR though - it's subject to diminishing returns with the formula converting Damage Resistance Rating to Damage Resistance.
Unbuffed, just at my standard ~74 Aux...I've got the following abilities that will give me additional DRR.
Polarize Hull I gives +45.5 All DRR at ~74 Aux. That additional +45.5 DRR takes both my Energy and Kinetic to 47.5% DR. The +45.5 DRR only gives me +13.8/13.9% additional DR.
Auxiliary Power to Structural Integrity Field II gives +31.5 All DRR. The +31.5 DRR takes me to 44.0% Kinetic/44.1% Energy as listed. So that +31.5 DRR's giving +10.4 DR.
Hazard Emitters II gives +22 All DRR. The +22 DRR takes me to 41.4% DR. An increase of +7.7/7.8% DR.
Scattering Field III gives +70.4 Energy DRR. Takes me from 33.7% to 52.3%, the +70.4 Energy DRR providing +18.6% Energy DR.
Brace For Impact III provides +166 Kinetic DRR. Takes me from 33.6% to 62.5%, the +166 Kinetic DRR providing 28.9% Kinetic DR.
Let's say I panic (heh, it happens) and hit everything!
There's all sorts of heinous diminishing returns with that DRR->DR conversion.
What you described up there sounded like the explanation offered to folks thinking there's diminishing returns with Tac consoles, which much like that description - technically there aren't (one can get into the fun incremental discussion, but at the end of the day each provides the same boost that the previous one did).
Virus dancer and a few other posters around can give you some good advice on making a science ship work and I defer that to them.
Heh, I wouldn't include myself in that...I suck at build advice in general. Different folks wanting to do different things, flying different ways, and all the rest...I prefer just to discuss the underlying mechanics of things - and - when it comes to Science abilities, my knowledge is going to be on the light side. I don't know to calculate GW damage/area of effect/pull or any of that sort of stuff. I just usually hit Quantum and Red Matter then pop it hoping for the best.
Reason I linked that other thread and even linked that thread to this one so some folks that focus on Sci/Sci might be able to offer some advice if the player was open to it...even if not, maybe the info they provided could be useful to somebody else (heh, even me - I'm always looking around at what other folks are doing and will dork around with a bunch of things).
I might be able to wet somebody's appetite with the basics, but I'm going to pass the buck on more advanced things or specifics to other folks - folks that have specialized in things, know the stuff like the back of their hand, and are constantly in that world so to speak...they tend to be better pilots than me too, lol, so my passing the buck to them tends to be a win-win sort of thing...heh. I'm just a goofball that dabbles around in all sorts of stuff...flying whatever as the mood suits me.
For what it's worth, ANRA looks as empty as ever. I want to say it took me less time to get a match before the changes, than it does now on the rare occasion I even bother queuing up for it.
The changes didn't address the actual problem, imho...and as such, preserved the problem.
Old ANRA: Those first spawns could be extremely easy or extremely hard depending on what ships spawned.
New ANRA: Those first spawns may not provide enough points to meet the new Objective.
So what was easy in the Old ANRA to meet the Mandatory Objective makes it impossible to meet the Optional Objective in the New ANRA, while what was hard in the Old ANRA is what a group needs to meet the Optional Objective in the New ANRA.
Trippy...imho.
They could have just tweaked the initial spawns...and...it would have been fine.
But, imho, the goal wasn't about making it fine - it was just to nerf rewards...and...goal accomplished with what they did.
Yeah, uh...no. Each console will add the same amount of Damage Resistance Rating...but in the conversion from Damage Resistance Rating to Damage Resistance, you lose out.
How true is that?
I've seen tons of research done into "diminishing returns" in other games.
As often as not, especially in the case of mitigation, the purpose is to maintain linear results. Which is to say, even though the tooltip reads that you're getting less effect per point, the math confirms that you're getting exactly the same effect per point, typically up to a soft or hard cap.
Has any analysis of the sort been done here? Does "diminishing returns" actually result in a decrease in effect per point, or does it merely keep the increase per point linear?
Damage Resistance (from adding positive DRR or applying negative DRR in the form of buffs) suffers from diminishing returns.
Statistically, the true measure of damage reduction is against the remaining amount of incoming damage, the damage you weren't already mitigating at the previous resistance level.
Going from 0% reduction to 10% reduction is a 10% increase in reduction. Going from 10% reduction to 19% reduction is also a 10% increase in reduction. Going from 10% reduction to 20% reduction, while it would appear to be a 10% increase in reduction, is statistically an ~11.1% increase in reduction.
Damage output isn't handled that way, and for good reasons, which I won't elaborate on here.
Suffice it to say, I suspect it's primarily an issue with terminology. What this game calls "damage resistance rating" would be known as "armor" in another game. The only thing Cryptic seems to do which is different from other developers is to further confuse the issue by utilizing some stats, such as pen, that suggest stat points and % effect are directly interchangeable.
EDIT: Based on the figures you provide, even once you've accounted for the fact that additional mitigation is measured against the remaining unmitigated damage, there does indeed seem to be an added layer of diminishing returns.
If that's the case, I would chalk it up to more Cryptic fuzzy maths. They seem to be of the opinion that players prefer hidden, unknown and purposefully obscure rule sets. Makes me wonder where they got their game theory degrees, because that couldn't be further from the truth. The best games are built on consistency, and the fuzzy maths suggest a level of dishonesty and disrespect MMO developers really can't afford, least of all in this game.
And some wonder why I'm such a cynic.
"Tolerance and apathy are the last virtues of a dying society." - Aristotle
So what was easy in the Old ANRA to meet the Mandatory Objective makes it impossible to meet the Optional Objective in the New ANRA, while what was hard in the Old ANRA is what a group needs to meet the Optional Objective in the New ANRA.
I know I'm not the only one who would find it completely contradictory for the masses to QQ about failoptionals, only for them to abandon a queue because the new optional is more or less impossible to complete.
I could believe its lack of adoption is due to the delta recruit push if I didn't see that traditionally active queues were still active, even at the offpeak hour I was running at.
They could have just tweaked the initial spawns...and...it would have been fine.
I was under the impression they've made at least one pass at this. I didn't notice a change, so that may just be a product of someone's imagination. Obviously it still needs work.
But, imho, the goal wasn't about making it fine - it was just to nerf rewards...and...goal accomplished with what they did.
That does seem to have been one of their goals. I think they do genuinely want to increase participation, and wanted to effect a change which improved the perception of advanced queues. Meanwhile, they'll nerf rewards, and I think they've been stealth nerfing some sources of defense, and/or stealth buffing mobs, possibly under the aegis of "bug fixes."
"Tolerance and apathy are the last virtues of a dying society." - Aristotle
I still think we should have to complete Holodeck training simulations at SFA before we're allowed to do a specific STF. Janeway ran loads of simulations in Voyager before she boarded a cube, so it would fit into the immersion aspect.
Not every mission would be helped by a simulation .
ISA & KSA ? Sure .
CSA ... OTOTH, well let's look at that from this POV:
Its been over 6 months to the changes made to it in DR, and there is NO mutually accepted / promoted / agreed upon strategy for that one -- specifically due to how different teams preform differently in that mission .
Some teams are good with 1-2 guarding Kang all the way .
Others need help demolishing the Bops / Raptors after the first cube pops .
Others still get bogged down with the wave of Bops after the first cube pops and that can turn to a mess or even fail .
The simple strategy of the other STF'S such as : left generators, then right generators then the gate, or 2 ppl that probes and the rest do the generator a and gates -- all that is missing from CSA, as is the old "who wants to babysit Kang ?" .
... what can I say, I miss the old version and at times I dred the new version ...
That does not take into account Damage Bonus Resistance Rating nor the application of Damage Resistance Debuffs. They also switched over from DRM to DRR.
A more in-depth (mind melting) coverage of the topic can be found in rbaker82's thread.
It's the only thing I can off off-hand that has diminishing returns in the game. Skill consoles, Tac consoles, and pretty much everything else...they just keep on adding and giving what they add. Damage Resistance Rating, though...fed into a variety of formulas for diminished returns. The more you add, the less you get out of what you've added.
edit: Well, technically spending skill points does. Skills themselves do not, but the spending of skill points does. For example, looking at say a Tier 1 Skill...it's 1000 SP per Rank. Rank 1-3 provide +18 skill each, Rank 4-6 provide +10 skill each, and Rank 7-9 provide +5 skill each. So the first 3000 gets you +54, the second 3000 gets you +30, and the third 3000 gets you +15...54 + 30 + 15 equals the 99 you get from having 9 Ranks in a Skill. Each of the +15 provide the same benefit as each of the +54...1 skill = 1 skill, regardless of its #1 or #300. But those +15 at Rank 7-9 will cost 3000 SP compared to the first +18 from Rank 1 which only cost 1000 SP. Tier 2 skills are 1500 per Rank, T3 are 2000, T4 are 2500, and T5 are 3000 SP per Rank. Taking a T5 Skill from R6 to R9 costs 9000 SP for +15 skill...that same 9000 SP could get somebody +99 in a T1, +84 in a T2, +64 in a T3 (w/ 1000 spare), +54 in a T4 (w/ 1500 spare). Then in converting those +15 into whatever benefit the skill provides - it can get pretty expensive for very little return, even though the skill points are just as good - they're just damn expensive.
A more in-depth (mind melting) coverage of the topic can be found in rbaker82's thread.
That's some interesting stuff. Thanks for providing the link to that discussion.
But, it doesn't directly cover the topic of diminishing returns on damage resistance. At this hour, I can't be asked to read into the consequences of the formula he derives in that thread. I'm not sure I could reliably draw any conclusions from the formula even on my best day. Well, eventually I could, if only with some serious graphing.
Even so, your argument earlier is a bit misleading, in that it did not address what I mentioned. rbaker accounts for it, but in that thread did not actually explore it.
Namely, that damage reduction is never measured against its tooltip effect, but rather against how it's tooltip effect relates to unmitigated damage. Your initial case, that 17.5 DRR ~= 14.85% DR, creates further confusion amongst players unfamiliar with this sort of stuff, by suggesting that is atypical.
As I alluded to, if this was a fantasy MMO, and we were using the term "armor" instead of DRR, no one would be surprised when the stat value of armor (17.5) generated less damage reduction (14.85%) than its explicit value (again, 17.5).
That said, and as I mentioned earlier, based on the figures you provided it indeed appears that actual diminished returns may be at work here, and not just the faux version every MMO employs to keep damage reduction scaling in a linear manner.
EHP Gain w/1x: 58722 - 50000 = 8722
EHP Gain w/2x: 67289 - 58722 = 8567
EHP Gain w/3x: 75583 - 67289 = 8294
Unlike some MMOs out there...there's actually diminishing returns taking place. It's not a case that the damage reduction gains appear to be diminishing but the effective health gain is constant...it's diminishing as well.
edit: Though, getting into the terminology thing - one could say we'd not see diminishing returns to the point where adding more DRR would actually reduce our DR so we're not really looking at diminishing returns. We're just approaching a limit...
edit2: Though, heh, one could make the argument that continued spending on DRR (either skill, console, etc) could result in a reduction of the efficiency of the overall build.
You apparently dont know what you are saying. Because basing high DPS players tank on ISA DPS random channel run is a bad way to go. Since a high DPSer will squeeze every ounce of their DPS in ISA because their testing their DPS not their tanking capabilities but mostly likely will not bring that same build in HSE.
If you want gimped runs in ISA, I suggest you purposely gimp yourself in T1 Ship to make things longer and harder for yourself. Otherwise go for harder missions like HSE since you are claiming you are a "tank."
However, DPS is directional to the pilot skill. A competent tank will most like most do 30k+ DPS in ISA. That means knowing when to buff, which position you are at, no to mash that spacebar or even if the build is optimal regardless if you are tac/eng/sci.
Is a random channel run a PUG ??????
Is your 30k DPS tank in a PUG ? or a 5 man DPS team ? makes a HUGE difference in DPS you know :P A lot of people do not know that
I don't claim to be a tank I just do it everyday and I do it in 4 man pug groups , I don't need 4 romulan DPSers to back me up.. Nor do I want them
and ive already been set up by members of your league before to test me , Guess what I did my claimed DPS in a DPS team with 3 scimitars and a Ar'kif with their parser
And yes I know how to pad my DPS shooting regenerating gates.......... Faw under the cubes....letting other use there buffs to lower shields bla bla bla...emerengcy power to engines so I can get to the next target quicker ( yawn )
You can do more DPS in a pug if you sacrifice your team mates and hide behind -threat consoles or leave them in a fight to rush across the map to epeen more dps shooting a regenerating gate then attack the next target before they can get there
while they die........... some may call that skill.. I do not
That's not my style
running with 4 other 20k+ players isn't a fun match either that's why I don't use the DPS channels..........2 minute ISA runs are boring to me
Another note..........I don't make a build for each piece of content for RP reasons.....I never saw the Enterprise do it .........breaks my immersion ...The enterprise didn't carry around 10 ships worth of parts spare engines weapons all that sort of garbage
Jellico....Engineer ground.....Da'val Romulan space Sci
Saphire.. Science ground......Ko'el Romulan space Tac
Leva........Tactical ground.....Koj Romulan space Eng
JJ-Verse will never be Canon or considered Lore...It will always be JJ-Verse
EHP Gain w/1x: 58722 - 50000 = 8722
EHP Gain w/2x: 67289 - 58722 = 8567
EHP Gain w/3x: 75583 - 67289 = 8294
Unlike some MMOs out there...there's actually diminishing returns taking place. It's not a case that the damage reduction gains appear to be diminishing but the effective health gain is constant...it's diminishing as well.
edit: Though, getting into the terminology thing - one could say we'd not see diminishing returns to the point where adding more DRR would actually reduce our DR so we're not really looking at diminishing returns. We're just approaching a limit...
edit2: Though, heh, one could make the argument that continued spending on DRR (either skill, console, etc) could result in a reduction of the efficiency of the overall build.
See, this is the way armor is intended to be looked at. Diminishing returns are apparently present afterall, but not to the massive degree that people claim when they are just going by the percentages. If you look at just the % you're going to be underwhelmed, when in fact as effective HP, it is very useful to add more than you'd think otherwise.
Unlike some MMOs out there...there's actually diminishing returns taking place. It's not a case that the damage reduction gains appear to be diminishing but the effective health gain is constant...it's diminishing as well.
Yes, and that's what I was looking to have confirmed. It indeed appears to be the case, though the real diminishing returns seem relatively minor.
edit: Though, getting into the terminology thing - one could say we'd not see diminishing returns to the point where adding more DRR would actually reduce our DR so we're not really looking at diminishing returns. We're just approaching a limit...
Approaching a limit is the aim of diminishing returns. I've never seen it implemented in such a way where adding more of a stat actually results in an overall decreased effect. IE adding 10 DRR to 50 DRR will never produce less DR than the original 50 DRR.
edit2: Though, heh, one could make the argument that continued spending on DRR (either skill, console, etc) could result in a reduction of the efficiency of the overall build.
Depends on the source, and the associated opportunity cost. Though I can't think of any source of DRR that couldn't be swapped out for some more damage or utility. That wasn't so much the case when I started playing years back, unless you had deep pockets.
Also, neutronium is for suckers; monotanium for life.:cool:
"Tolerance and apathy are the last virtues of a dying society." - Aristotle
It's curious, but in talking about the lag issues that have been brought up a few times - I'm noticing a curious pattern that the lag appears to be showing up after the first Trans is popped. Doesn't matter if it's a group zipping through or unlikely to get the 15 minute Optional...once that first Trans goes down - boom - here comes the lag.
It's curious, but in talking about the lag issues that have been brought up a few times - I'm noticing a curious pattern that the lag appears to be showing up after the first Trans is popped. Doesn't matter if it's a group zipping through or unlikely to get the 15 minute Optional...once that first Trans goes down - boom - here comes the lag.
I've seen it before we even shoot. Literally, we start to fly at the opening cube, and in comes the lag.
We may be a bunch of wizards, but we don't quite pop the gen before the timer starts. :P
SCM - Crystal C. (S) - [00:12] DMG(DPS) - @jarvisandalfred: 8.63M(713.16K) - Fed Sci
Yeah that is precisely why I stopped doing ISA with my science ship. My shields are worthless, and I don't have the engineering slots to hull tank the amount of aggro I get. We can't guarantee someone with a hull tanking cruiser is going to be in a PUG.
Old elite, that ship worked great, same loadout, could tank what I pulled short of the instagib torpedoes, and contributed with damage and grav wells. Now with mostly mk 14 equipment, it is worthless. Things are not being scaled properly, and other changes are severely detrimental to the playability of my build. So I'm forced to either rebuild the entire ship into a hull tanking monstrosity, which might be somewhat possible, yet utterly stupid in a science ship, or just say forget it.
How many other people have made that same decision? These are not the old elites slightly buffed.
But having given some other advanced queues the chance, the problem isn't limited to the Borg stfs. All of them have some hugely buffed damage output that isn't appropriate at all for the lack of scaling we have in player abilities from 50+. This is compounded by their massive HP pools, because they can't be brought down before they do massive damage.
As someone else said, the empty queues is point in fact of the failure of what DR did to the STFs. No they aren't the same as they were at DR launch, but they are still terribly over scaled.
Virus directed me here, and this was the only relevant post I could see in regards to running a science ship. I will start off by saying I feel your pain. I run a DPS oriented partgen FAW sci ship. The tachyon beam buff was a killer for me, as I only PUG and draw tons of aggro. I will say, I feel that the power insulators skill is under performing compared to uber buffed NPC tachy beams.
Looking at some rough numbers, I did about as much DPS as my 4 other teammates combined; yet only took about as much damage as two of my teammates. Looking at that heal number, I feel like I should have done a lot better, at least only have died once or twice. About 12k of my damage came from weapons and around 8k from partgen damage. Of course, there's that absurd 114k plasma explosion lol.
My build is fairly suicidal, but before the tachy changes, I never died unless I lagged out. I think it's a mix of running in PUGs (drawing aggro with low damage players) and tachy spam that makes the Borg a little out of whack compared to other NPCs. Kind of like how the Voth were on Breech Elite for a while there. They blew through hull like you had no resists.
It seems like a lot of folks like the changes and say adapt. So I went from this to this - just a couple small changes to include some resists. I was going to post a screenshot of a run here, but out of 3 ISA PUGs, they all failed.
I died only once during those 4 runs tonight. A lag moment during the first cube where nothing triggered, I just watched my ship move forward and blow up. But mostly the failures occurred on the first generator, players shooting spheres [sigh]. So I was CCing the Nanite Spheres and DPSing the generator... might as well play solo. And that's kind of where PUGs are at in my mind.
It's curious, but in talking about the lag issues that have been brought up a few times - I'm noticing a curious pattern that the lag appears to be showing up after the first Trans is popped. Doesn't matter if it's a group zipping through or unlikely to get the 15 minute Optional...once that first Trans goes down - boom - here comes the lag.
Don't know if it's lag-related but I've often noticed a weird phenomenon : at the first Cube my screen goes all white for 1-2 secs , like a big flash like ... I am going to be called by the Prophets lol
Have to wonder how many of the "difficulty" complaints can be tied to what happened with lag/latency leading up to the Mirror Event and how ISA went in the toilet at that point. If you're there and think you've hit half a dozen things or more and not a one of them actually triggered...if you're sitting there watching your weapons not fire...if you're doing the temporal rubberband bounce thing...and all the rest there - well, would it matter much what changes are made until that's addressed?
It gets, imho, into how the APS for the mobs are compared to players. They're set to give players time to react to things and do stuff...you TRIBBLE with that, and it's a whole different ballgame going on.
Here are the APS for my last three runs...
Us: 32.6
Them: 4.9
Us: 29.9
Them: 5.3
Us: 37.9
Them: 5.7
Work in the Avg. Base-Dmg for those attacks...
Us: 1022.2
Them: 2139.1
Us: 2041.4
Them: 2727.1
Us: 1298.1
Them: 2091.2
Comparing Damage to BaseDamage...
Us: 138.7%
Them: 34.7%
Us: 155.1%
Them: 30.6%
Us: 161.0%
Them: 38.4%
We're very spammy - not talking everything on the spacebar for the spacebar mash - we just have a lot of things that even if we're timing them, we're hitting a lot of things...throw some latency and lag into that...welcome to fubar.
Have to wonder how many of the "difficulty" complaints can be tied to what happened with lag/latency leading up to the Mirror Event and how ISA went in the toilet at that point.
In unrelated news, I just ate warp core breeches from what I can only assume were boarding party shuttles, because the source listed in the combat log was still very much active.
"Tolerance and apathy are the last virtues of a dying society." - Aristotle
I've seen it before we even shoot. Literally, we start to fly at the opening cube, and in comes the lag.
We may be a bunch of wizards, but we don't quite pop the gen before the timer starts. :P
Heh...it's just a pattern I'm seeing. Even if there is some latency at the start, once that first Trans drops...just don't even want to play. Just had my fifth where it played out just like that. Third that led to a failure on the second Trans because of it...meh.
That I can hit up a CCA with 10 folks there spamming all sorts of stuff while the Tholians are spamming all sorts of stuff while...yeah, anyway...and at its worst it doesn't come anywhere near ISA has led me to wonder if the ISA stuff is not on purpose and they're trying to push folks toward running other content.
Virus directed me here, and this was the only relevant post I could see in regards to running a science ship. I will start off by saying I feel your pain. I run a DPS oriented partgen FAW sci ship. The tachyon beam buff was a killer for me, as I only PUG and draw tons of aggro. I will say, I feel that the power insulators skill is under performing compared to uber buffed NPC tachy beams.
Looking at some rough numbers, I did about as much DPS as my 4 other teammates combined; yet only took about as much damage as two of my teammates. Looking at that heal number, I feel like I should have done a lot better, at least only have died once or twice. About 12k of my damage came from weapons and around 8k from partgen damage. Of course, there's that absurd 114k plasma explosion lol.
My build is fairly suicidal, but before the tachy changes, I never died unless I lagged out. I think it's a mix of running in PUGs (drawing aggro with low damage players) and tachy spam that makes the Borg a little out of whack compared to other NPCs. Kind of like how the Voth were on Breech Elite for a while there. They blew through hull like you had no resists.
It seems like a lot of folks like the changes and say adapt. So I went from this to this - just a couple small changes to include some resists. I was going to post a screenshot of a run here, but out of 3 ISA PUGs, they all failed.
I died only once during those 4 runs tonight. A lag moment during the first cube where nothing triggered, I just watched my ship move forward and blow up. But mostly the failures occurred on the first generator, players shooting spheres [sigh]. So I was CCing the Nanite Spheres and DPSing the generator... might as well play solo. And that's kind of where PUGs are at in my mind.
APD ugh. That is at least 30s between APD which is a long time without those resists, unless reciprocity actually brings it down to 15?
But yeah I don't have better experiences with ISA people lately. Last one I did some jerk griefed us purposely, blowing up a transformer before the cube above it was even dealt with so I have to go and try and deal with the spheres, yet I can't possibly hold them all off when my shields are drained in seconds and I'm dead in the next few seconds. There is no reason for me to bother with that nonsense.
If I want to bother with the Borg STFs, KSA is a much better bet, less full of Borg Tachyon beams, and harder to grief.
Something to consider with the Borg is their collective AI, lol - that's kind of trippy in thinking about it...er, but anyway - have you noticed they all tend to do what they do when they do it?
Grabbing aggro on 4-5 Borg, they're all going to Tach Beam you and toss a load of torps your way...yeah? They tend to do the same thing. Knowing that they're going to behave in a certain way allows one to exploit that behavior...since they're going to do what they do, and there will be sometime before they can do it again...getting them to do it to themselves can be fun.
Comments
I do quite well in escorts in the borg STfs too but there labor intensive for me and exhausting to fly right over a period of time for me so I don't use them a great deal............I tank with them and do fine dps but I don't like to fly them for a long period of time.
Science ships .............. I just flat don't like them mainly for canon and rp reasons , But that's my own personal choice and anyone who wants to fly them has my respect. The T-5u Nebula I do like
Virus dancer and a few other posters around can give you some good advice on making a science ship work and I defer that to them.
Advanced STF/s general advanced Q's push DPS hard forcing players to upgrade weapons to mk-14 to get the same level of performance you used to get with mk-12s in the old elite's...well almost :P
Geko stated that his test ships has 15 crit chance and 200 crit Sev as testers for the advanced Q's So you can see what your up against
personally I call this a bad test group because it pretty much makes romulans the testers using antiprotons critx3 or 4 and there probably in scimitars as well but he didn't say that
I cheated on my science ships and put 5 mk-14 critDx3 crit H antiprotons on it with 4/3/2 mk-14 epic tac consoles depending on the ship just to level them up for the traits..Then retired them
Saphire.. Science ground......Ko'el Romulan space Tac
Leva........Tactical ground.....Koj Romulan space Eng
JJ-Verse will never be Canon or considered Lore...It will always be JJ-Verse
You apparently dont know what you are saying. Because basing high DPS players tank on ISA DPS random channel run is a bad way to go. Since a high DPSer will squeeze every ounce of their DPS in ISA because their testing their DPS not their tanking capabilities but mostly likely will not bring that same build in HSE.
If you want gimped runs in ISA, I suggest you purposely gimp yourself in T1 Ship to make things longer and harder for yourself. Otherwise go for harder missions like HSE since you are claiming you are a "tank."
However, DPS is directional to the pilot skill. A competent tank will most like most do 30k+ DPS in ISA. That means knowing when to buff, which position you are at, no to mash that spacebar or even if the build is optimal regardless if you are tac/eng/sci.
Yeah, uh...no. Each console will add the same amount of Damage Resistance Rating...but in the conversion from Damage Resistance Rating to Damage Resistance, you lose out.
Say you had a single Rare Mk XI Neutronium. As long as you had no other DRR in play, the +17.5 DRR that R11 Neut added would provide 14.85% DR. You've already lost out in the conversion.
If you add a second R11 Neut, it's not going to add another 14.85% DR. Adding the second will take you to 25.69% DR. That second one added 10.84% DR.
Neither of the consoles provided their full +17.5 DRR to your DR.
Say you add a third R11 Neut...the third one will add 8.15% taking you to 33.84% DR
Damage Resistance (from adding positive DRR or applying negative DRR in the form of buffs) suffers from diminishing returns.
Tac consoles? Nope. Sci consoles? Nope. Pretty much everything else in the game? Nope. Damage Resistance? Yep.
Like that build I posted...
9 Starship Hull Plating: +12.6 Energy DRR
G14 Bounty Hunter's Friend: +37.5 Energy DRR
G14 Exotic Particle Field Exciter: +50 Kinetic DRR
Energy Accolades: +2 DRR
Kinetic Accolade: +2 DRR
So that's +52.1 Energy and +52 Kinetic...but my listed Damage Resists are the following:
Energy 33.7%
Kinetic 33.6%
Those are the tooltip rounded numbers....
Energy 33.68468%
Kinetic 33.64376%
...would be the numbers from the formula.
Neither is getting the +52.1/52 from the DRR though - it's subject to diminishing returns with the formula converting Damage Resistance Rating to Damage Resistance.
Unbuffed, just at my standard ~74 Aux...I've got the following abilities that will give me additional DRR.
Polarize Hull I gives +45.5 All DRR at ~74 Aux. That additional +45.5 DRR takes both my Energy and Kinetic to 47.5% DR. The +45.5 DRR only gives me +13.8/13.9% additional DR.
Auxiliary Power to Structural Integrity Field II gives +31.5 All DRR. The +31.5 DRR takes me to 44.0% Kinetic/44.1% Energy as listed. So that +31.5 DRR's giving +10.4 DR.
Hazard Emitters II gives +22 All DRR. The +22 DRR takes me to 41.4% DR. An increase of +7.7/7.8% DR.
Scattering Field III gives +70.4 Energy DRR. Takes me from 33.7% to 52.3%, the +70.4 Energy DRR providing +18.6% Energy DR.
Brace For Impact III provides +166 Kinetic DRR. Takes me from 33.6% to 62.5%, the +166 Kinetic DRR providing 28.9% Kinetic DR.
Let's say I panic (heh, it happens) and hit everything!
Kinetic
Field Exciter: +50 DRR
Accolade: +2 DRR
PH1: +45.5 DRR
AtS2: +31.5 DRR
HE2: +22 DRR
BFI3: +166 DRR
Total Kinetic DRR: 317
Total Kinetic DR: 67.3%
Energy
9 Starship Hull Plating: +12.6
Bounty Hunter's: +37.5
Accolade: +2 DRR
PH1: +45.5 DRR
AtS2: +31.5 DRR
HE2: +22 DRR
SF3: +70.4 DRR
Total Energy DRR: 221.5
Total Energy DR: 62.8%
There's all sorts of heinous diminishing returns with that DRR->DR conversion.
What you described up there sounded like the explanation offered to folks thinking there's diminishing returns with Tac consoles, which much like that description - technically there aren't (one can get into the fun incremental discussion, but at the end of the day each provides the same boost that the previous one did).
Heh, I wouldn't include myself in that...I suck at build advice in general. Different folks wanting to do different things, flying different ways, and all the rest...I prefer just to discuss the underlying mechanics of things - and - when it comes to Science abilities, my knowledge is going to be on the light side. I don't know to calculate GW damage/area of effect/pull or any of that sort of stuff. I just usually hit Quantum and Red Matter then pop it hoping for the best.
Reason I linked that other thread and even linked that thread to this one so some folks that focus on Sci/Sci might be able to offer some advice if the player was open to it...even if not, maybe the info they provided could be useful to somebody else (heh, even me - I'm always looking around at what other folks are doing and will dork around with a bunch of things).
I might be able to wet somebody's appetite with the basics, but I'm going to pass the buck on more advanced things or specifics to other folks - folks that have specialized in things, know the stuff like the back of their hand, and are constantly in that world so to speak...they tend to be better pilots than me too, lol, so my passing the buck to them tends to be a win-win sort of thing...heh. I'm just a goofball that dabbles around in all sorts of stuff...flying whatever as the mood suits me.
The changes didn't address the actual problem, imho...and as such, preserved the problem.
Old ANRA: Those first spawns could be extremely easy or extremely hard depending on what ships spawned.
New ANRA: Those first spawns may not provide enough points to meet the new Objective.
So what was easy in the Old ANRA to meet the Mandatory Objective makes it impossible to meet the Optional Objective in the New ANRA, while what was hard in the Old ANRA is what a group needs to meet the Optional Objective in the New ANRA.
Trippy...imho.
They could have just tweaked the initial spawns...and...it would have been fine.
But, imho, the goal wasn't about making it fine - it was just to nerf rewards...and...goal accomplished with what they did.
I've seen tons of research done into "diminishing returns" in other games.
As often as not, especially in the case of mitigation, the purpose is to maintain linear results. Which is to say, even though the tooltip reads that you're getting less effect per point, the math confirms that you're getting exactly the same effect per point, typically up to a soft or hard cap.
Has any analysis of the sort been done here? Does "diminishing returns" actually result in a decrease in effect per point, or does it merely keep the increase per point linear?
Statistically, the true measure of damage reduction is against the remaining amount of incoming damage, the damage you weren't already mitigating at the previous resistance level.
Going from 0% reduction to 10% reduction is a 10% increase in reduction. Going from 10% reduction to 19% reduction is also a 10% increase in reduction. Going from 10% reduction to 20% reduction, while it would appear to be a 10% increase in reduction, is statistically an ~11.1% increase in reduction.
Damage output isn't handled that way, and for good reasons, which I won't elaborate on here.
Suffice it to say, I suspect it's primarily an issue with terminology. What this game calls "damage resistance rating" would be known as "armor" in another game. The only thing Cryptic seems to do which is different from other developers is to further confuse the issue by utilizing some stats, such as pen, that suggest stat points and % effect are directly interchangeable.
EDIT: Based on the figures you provide, even once you've accounted for the fact that additional mitigation is measured against the remaining unmitigated damage, there does indeed seem to be an added layer of diminishing returns.
If that's the case, I would chalk it up to more Cryptic fuzzy maths. They seem to be of the opinion that players prefer hidden, unknown and purposefully obscure rule sets. Makes me wonder where they got their game theory degrees, because that couldn't be further from the truth. The best games are built on consistency, and the fuzzy maths suggest a level of dishonesty and disrespect MMO developers really can't afford, least of all in this game.
And some wonder why I'm such a cynic.
I could believe its lack of adoption is due to the delta recruit push if I didn't see that traditionally active queues were still active, even at the offpeak hour I was running at.
I was under the impression they've made at least one pass at this. I didn't notice a change, so that may just be a product of someone's imagination. Obviously it still needs work.
That does seem to have been one of their goals. I think they do genuinely want to increase participation, and wanted to effect a change which improved the perception of advanced queues. Meanwhile, they'll nerf rewards, and I think they've been stealth nerfing some sources of defense, and/or stealth buffing mobs, possibly under the aegis of "bug fixes."
Not every mission would be helped by a simulation .
ISA & KSA ? Sure .
CSA ... OTOTH, well let's look at that from this POV:
Its been over 6 months to the changes made to it in DR, and there is NO mutually accepted / promoted / agreed upon strategy for that one -- specifically due to how different teams preform differently in that mission .
Some teams are good with 1-2 guarding Kang all the way .
Others need help demolishing the Bops / Raptors after the first cube pops .
Others still get bogged down with the wave of Bops after the first cube pops and that can turn to a mess or even fail .
The simple strategy of the other STF'S such as : left generators, then right generators then the gate, or 2 ppl that probes and the rest do the generator a and gates -- all that is missing from CSA, as is the old "who wants to babysit Kang ?" .
... what can I say, I miss the old version and at times I dred the new version ...
The basic formula for it can be found here: http://sto.gamepedia.com/Damage_resistance
That does not take into account Damage Bonus Resistance Rating nor the application of Damage Resistance Debuffs. They also switched over from DRM to DRR.
A more in-depth (mind melting) coverage of the topic can be found in rbaker82's thread.
Damage Resistance Magnitude, Debuffs, Injuries, and Bonus Resistance
It's the only thing I can off off-hand that has diminishing returns in the game. Skill consoles, Tac consoles, and pretty much everything else...they just keep on adding and giving what they add. Damage Resistance Rating, though...fed into a variety of formulas for diminished returns. The more you add, the less you get out of what you've added.
edit: Well, technically spending skill points does. Skills themselves do not, but the spending of skill points does. For example, looking at say a Tier 1 Skill...it's 1000 SP per Rank. Rank 1-3 provide +18 skill each, Rank 4-6 provide +10 skill each, and Rank 7-9 provide +5 skill each. So the first 3000 gets you +54, the second 3000 gets you +30, and the third 3000 gets you +15...54 + 30 + 15 equals the 99 you get from having 9 Ranks in a Skill. Each of the +15 provide the same benefit as each of the +54...1 skill = 1 skill, regardless of its #1 or #300. But those +15 at Rank 7-9 will cost 3000 SP compared to the first +18 from Rank 1 which only cost 1000 SP. Tier 2 skills are 1500 per Rank, T3 are 2000, T4 are 2500, and T5 are 3000 SP per Rank. Taking a T5 Skill from R6 to R9 costs 9000 SP for +15 skill...that same 9000 SP could get somebody +99 in a T1, +84 in a T2, +64 in a T3 (w/ 1000 spare), +54 in a T4 (w/ 1500 spare). Then in converting those +15 into whatever benefit the skill provides - it can get pretty expensive for very little return, even though the skill points are just as good - they're just damn expensive.
One can see the effect of ranks/points with Amicus' table: http://www.amicushome.com/SkillPointEffects.htm
But, it doesn't directly cover the topic of diminishing returns on damage resistance. At this hour, I can't be asked to read into the consequences of the formula he derives in that thread. I'm not sure I could reliably draw any conclusions from the formula even on my best day. Well, eventually I could, if only with some serious graphing.
Even so, your argument earlier is a bit misleading, in that it did not address what I mentioned. rbaker accounts for it, but in that thread did not actually explore it.
Namely, that damage reduction is never measured against its tooltip effect, but rather against how it's tooltip effect relates to unmitigated damage. Your initial case, that 17.5 DRR ~= 14.85% DR, creates further confusion amongst players unfamiliar with this sort of stuff, by suggesting that is atypical.
As I alluded to, if this was a fantasy MMO, and we were using the term "armor" instead of DRR, no one would be surprised when the stat value of armor (17.5) generated less damage reduction (14.85%) than its explicit value (again, 17.5).
That said, and as I mentioned earlier, based on the figures you provided it indeed appears that actual diminished returns may be at work here, and not just the faux version every MMO employs to keep damage reduction scaling in a linear manner.
That graph looks no different than every other graph of damage reduction I've seen in every other MMO.
Say the player had 50000 hull, eh?
1x R11 Neut (17.5 DRR): 14.85297% DR
2x R11 Neut (35.0 DRR): 25.69394% DR
3x R11 Neut (52.5 DRR); 33.84774% DR
EHP w/1x: 50000 / (1 - 0.1485297) = 50000 / 0.8514703 = ~58722
EHP w/2x: 50000 / (1 - 0.2569394) = 50000 / 0.7430606 = ~67289
EHP w/3x: 50000 / (1 - 0.3384774) = 50000 / 0.6615226 = ~75583
EHP Gain w/1x: 58722 - 50000 = 8722
EHP Gain w/2x: 67289 - 58722 = 8567
EHP Gain w/3x: 75583 - 67289 = 8294
Unlike some MMOs out there...there's actually diminishing returns taking place. It's not a case that the damage reduction gains appear to be diminishing but the effective health gain is constant...it's diminishing as well.
edit: Though, getting into the terminology thing - one could say we'd not see diminishing returns to the point where adding more DRR would actually reduce our DR so we're not really looking at diminishing returns. We're just approaching a limit...
edit2: Though, heh, one could make the argument that continued spending on DRR (either skill, console, etc) could result in a reduction of the efficiency of the overall build.
Is a random channel run a PUG ??????
Is your 30k DPS tank in a PUG ? or a 5 man DPS team ? makes a HUGE difference in DPS you know :P A lot of people do not know that
I don't claim to be a tank I just do it everyday and I do it in 4 man pug groups , I don't need 4 romulan DPSers to back me up.. Nor do I want them
and ive already been set up by members of your league before to test me , Guess what I did my claimed DPS in a DPS team with 3 scimitars and a Ar'kif with their parser
And yes I know how to pad my DPS shooting regenerating gates.......... Faw under the cubes....letting other use there buffs to lower shields bla bla bla...emerengcy power to engines so I can get to the next target quicker ( yawn )
You can do more DPS in a pug if you sacrifice your team mates and hide behind -threat consoles or leave them in a fight to rush across the map to epeen more dps shooting a regenerating gate then attack the next target before they can get there
while they die........... some may call that skill.. I do not
That's not my style
running with 4 other 20k+ players isn't a fun match either that's why I don't use the DPS channels..........2 minute ISA runs are boring to me
Another note..........I don't make a build for each piece of content for RP reasons.....I never saw the Enterprise do it .........breaks my immersion ...The enterprise didn't carry around 10 ships worth of parts spare engines weapons all that sort of garbage
Saphire.. Science ground......Ko'el Romulan space Tac
Leva........Tactical ground.....Koj Romulan space Eng
JJ-Verse will never be Canon or considered Lore...It will always be JJ-Verse
See, this is the way armor is intended to be looked at. Diminishing returns are apparently present afterall, but not to the massive degree that people claim when they are just going by the percentages. If you look at just the % you're going to be underwhelmed, when in fact as effective HP, it is very useful to add more than you'd think otherwise.
Yes, and that's what I was looking to have confirmed. It indeed appears to be the case, though the real diminishing returns seem relatively minor.
Approaching a limit is the aim of diminishing returns. I've never seen it implemented in such a way where adding more of a stat actually results in an overall decreased effect. IE adding 10 DRR to 50 DRR will never produce less DR than the original 50 DRR.
That would be crazy.
Depends on the source, and the associated opportunity cost. Though I can't think of any source of DRR that couldn't be swapped out for some more damage or utility. That wasn't so much the case when I started playing years back, unless you had deep pockets.
Also, neutronium is for suckers; monotanium for life.:cool:
I've seen it before we even shoot. Literally, we start to fly at the opening cube, and in comes the lag.
We may be a bunch of wizards, but we don't quite pop the gen before the timer starts. :P
SCM - Hive (S) - [02:31] DMG(DPS) - @jarvisandalfred: 30.62M(204.66K) - Fed Sci
Tacs are overrated.
Game's best wiki
Build questions? Look here!
I've also seen extreme lag in other space maps.
Virus directed me here, and this was the only relevant post I could see in regards to running a science ship. I will start off by saying I feel your pain. I run a DPS oriented partgen FAW sci ship. The tachyon beam buff was a killer for me, as I only PUG and draw tons of aggro. I will say, I feel that the power insulators skill is under performing compared to uber buffed NPC tachy beams.
Here's a really hairy ISA PUG I did the other day. We barely succeeded with seconds to spare, I died four times, and got the lowest DPS for my ship in a long time.
Looking at some rough numbers, I did about as much DPS as my 4 other teammates combined; yet only took about as much damage as two of my teammates. Looking at that heal number, I feel like I should have done a lot better, at least only have died once or twice. About 12k of my damage came from weapons and around 8k from partgen damage. Of course, there's that absurd 114k plasma explosion lol.
My build is fairly suicidal, but before the tachy changes, I never died unless I lagged out. I think it's a mix of running in PUGs (drawing aggro with low damage players) and tachy spam that makes the Borg a little out of whack compared to other NPCs. Kind of like how the Voth were on Breech Elite for a while there. They blew through hull like you had no resists.
It seems like a lot of folks like the changes and say adapt. So I went from this to this - just a couple small changes to include some resists. I was going to post a screenshot of a run here, but out of 3 ISA PUGs, they all failed.
EDIT: Finally one succeeded, good team overall.
I died only once during those 4 runs tonight. A lag moment during the first cube where nothing triggered, I just watched my ship move forward and blow up. But mostly the failures occurred on the first generator, players shooting spheres [sigh]. So I was CCing the Nanite Spheres and DPSing the generator... might as well play solo. And that's kind of where PUGs are at in my mind.
Don't know if it's lag-related but I've often noticed a weird phenomenon : at the first Cube my screen goes all white for 1-2 secs , like a big flash like ... I am going to be called by the Prophets lol
It gets, imho, into how the APS for the mobs are compared to players. They're set to give players time to react to things and do stuff...you TRIBBLE with that, and it's a whole different ballgame going on.
Here are the APS for my last three runs...
Us: 32.6
Them: 4.9
Us: 29.9
Them: 5.3
Us: 37.9
Them: 5.7
Work in the Avg. Base-Dmg for those attacks...
Us: 1022.2
Them: 2139.1
Us: 2041.4
Them: 2727.1
Us: 1298.1
Them: 2091.2
Comparing Damage to BaseDamage...
Us: 138.7%
Them: 34.7%
Us: 155.1%
Them: 30.6%
Us: 161.0%
Them: 38.4%
We're very spammy - not talking everything on the spacebar for the spacebar mash - we just have a lot of things that even if we're timing them, we're hitting a lot of things...throw some latency and lag into that...welcome to fubar.
Heh...it's just a pattern I'm seeing. Even if there is some latency at the start, once that first Trans drops...just don't even want to play. Just had my fifth where it played out just like that. Third that led to a failure on the second Trans because of it...meh.
That I can hit up a CCA with 10 folks there spamming all sorts of stuff while the Tholians are spamming all sorts of stuff while...yeah, anyway...and at its worst it doesn't come anywhere near ISA has led me to wonder if the ISA stuff is not on purpose and they're trying to push folks toward running other content.
APD ugh. That is at least 30s between APD which is a long time without those resists, unless reciprocity actually brings it down to 15?
But yeah I don't have better experiences with ISA people lately. Last one I did some jerk griefed us purposely, blowing up a transformer before the cube above it was even dealt with so I have to go and try and deal with the spheres, yet I can't possibly hold them all off when my shields are drained in seconds and I'm dead in the next few seconds. There is no reason for me to bother with that nonsense.
If I want to bother with the Borg STFs, KSA is a much better bet, less full of Borg Tachyon beams, and harder to grief.
Grabbing aggro on 4-5 Borg, they're all going to Tach Beam you and toss a load of torps your way...yeah? They tend to do the same thing. Knowing that they're going to behave in a certain way allows one to exploit that behavior...since they're going to do what they do, and there will be sometime before they can do it again...getting them to do it to themselves can be fun.