Could you please repeat that? Possibly with grammar, this time?
Sorry for my bad grammar. But i hope, you understood me. Not everyone is english native speaker.
In our country we appreciate if a foreigner tries to talk to our difficult language and we do not offended him. But in some other countries, the people are much more arrogant. How many foreign languages do you know ? I know three (ok, any perfectly).
You're reminded me of Homer Simpson when he was on holiday in Brazil and complained why local people can not speak American language.
No depth of propaganda is too low for the imperialists and Tal'Shiar sympathizers, eh? No action, no matter how sane, if done in the name of the Republic, can possibly be good in their eyes. No, they must twist and re-purpose every statement, action, consequence, into something nefarious, perverse, or worthy of mockery.
warmaker, aptly named, are you a member of the House of Torg, seeking to perpetuate the war between RSE and NRR, in an effort to encourage more bellicose and dishonored elements of the Klingon Empire to swoop in and annihilate both, hoping to reclaim honor and seize political power?
See how easy it is to twist the words of another into something questionable? Perhaps you should re-purpose yourself, and seek the larger challenges, rather than further dishonor yourself with these distortions of the truth.
I've been away a while. So I'm back :cool:
What I said there isn't propaganda. It's not made up. What I said there is directly from the Rom Republic temporal agent at the Flotilla standing next to D'Tan. That's as official as you can get Go ahead and speak with him if you can handle the truth.
I'm not here to RP/ERP.
I came here stating facts ingame that your own temporal agent spews out. Let me cut & paste it again as a friendly reminder:
"There are many points in the past some Romulans want to change. The destruction of Romulus and Remus being just one of them. Of course, changing these events could erase everything we have earned!"
Heavens forbid that someway, somehow, that Romulus and Remus are not destroyed with countless billions saved! Far fetched to even occur, oh yes. But a worthy goal to save home and all those lives. Of course, the Republic can't have that
Sorry for my bad grammar. But i hope, you understood me. Not everyone is english native speaker.
In our country we appreciate if a foreigner tries to talk to our difficult language and we do not offended him. But in some other countries, the people are much more arrogant. How many foreign languages do you know ? I know three (ok, any perfectly).
You're reminded me of Homer Simpson when he was on holiday in Brazil and complained why local people can not speak American language.
Nope. The real thing is that I see too many native English speakers who don't bother to use proper grammar online, and far more non-native speakers who do, that I've become jaded to the possibility of the opposite.
Also, i'm sorry, but how is the number of languages you speak relevant? I'd like to point out that not everyone learns in the same way, and whatever you may think, the number of languages you speak is not indicative of superior intelligence.
What I said there isn't propaganda. It's not made up. What I said there is directly from the Rom Republic temporal agent at the Flotilla standing next to D'Tan. That's as official as you can get Go ahead and speak with him if you can handle the truth.
I'm not here to RP/ERP.
I came here stating facts ingame that your own temporal agent spews out. Let me cut & paste it again as a friendly reminder:
"There are many points in the past some Romulans want to change. The destruction of Romulus and Remus being just one of them. Of course, changing these events could erase everything we have earned!"
Heavens forbid that someway, somehow, that Romulus and Remus are not destroyed with countless billions saved! Far fetched to even occur, oh yes. But a worthy goal to save home and all those lives. Of course, the Republic can't have that
Of course, that is also only one man, and his opinion. Assuming that he reflects even a small minority of Republic citizens opinions is the height of foolishness when lacking evidence.
"There are many points in the past some Romulans want to change. The destruction of Romulus and Remus being just one of them. Of course, changing these events could erase everything we have earned!"
Heavens forbid that someway, somehow, that Romulus and Remus are not destroyed with countless billions saved! Far fetched to even occur, oh yes. But a worthy goal to save home and all those lives. Of course, the Republic can't have that
This is a morality and philosophical debate. Stand among the newborn on New Romulus and say you will be sacrificing all of those to restore a dead world and her people. Morally you are killing those that came for those that were. Statistically you can maybe count the lives created versus those that were lost and compare the needs of the many versus the needs of the few. But that sounds a little too Vulcan for the RSE.
The only way we can keep our timeline and restore Romulus and Remus is if someone were to use say the guardian of forever and the jump tech from a dyson sphere to swap a pair of dead moons from today with the living worlds of then. But who would endeavor to do such a grand plan? Not the Federation for it violates too many of the prime directive shields they hide behind. Not the Klingons for there is nothing in it for them to restore a destroyed enemy. The current RSE factions? They seem to be squabbling and scavenging what power they can find for themselves to undertake such a bold operation. Sadly only the RR is in a position to undertake such a vast scheme. Now they just need to have a good reason to do so.
Originally Posted by pwlaughingtrendy
Network engineers are not ship designers.
Nor should they be. Their ships would look weird.
Of course, that is also only one man, and his opinion. Assuming that he reflects even a small minority of Republic citizens opinions is the height of foolishness when lacking evidence.
It's all in good fun, guys
It doesn't matter what that one person's opinion is, when his objectives as a temporal agent for the Republic is an official mission. People do things all the time because it's their job. It's their duty to do so, regardless of what they think.
He's standing a few feet away from D'Tan when he's openly telling you this. He's not telling you this in whispers in an isolated room. He's not sending an encrypted message. He's not beaming in to your office or whatever like the Tal Shiar did with D'Tan with their "offers." He's not handing you a secret, folded note like you would in class.
He's right there openly telling you this with D'Tan nearby.
It's state policy. This isn't Section31 we're talking about.
Anyways...
Remember, the Republic had zero chance of even starting if the RSE did not face the cataclysm of Hobus with Romulus, Remus going up in smoke. If Romulus survived that meant the seat and base of power of the Empire remained intact. Now, don't get me wrong, Shinzon's killing of the Senate in Nemesis did untold damage to stability. The Romulan Senate was far more stable than relying on the subsequent dictators, but the base of power and seat of government was always there. Romulus' destruction was the final push needed to irrevocably shatter unified Romulan power.
It's no secret that the Federation and Klingon Empire would stand to gain from a fractured, non-unified Romulan base of power. Both powers did not come to D'Tan's aid for the sake of being nice guys. Before the Iconian War, did the alliance actively help in the war against what remained of the fractured RSE? Don't you think that a push by the allies to finish off the RSE was feasible? Or to further the war on the RSE by the Allies to force the Empire to come to peace terms with the Republic and accept it as an independent state and not a collection of rebels? They were without Sela and the Tal Shiar was irrevocably wasted due to Hakeev's awful attempts at comic villain. Typically in an alliance, the highest form of a diplomatic agreement you can make between sovereign powers, "The enemy of my friend is my enemy." But that hasn't held so even before the strains of the Iconian War.
Why do you think the Federation, Klingon Empire didn't push hard against the RSE to remove a mortal enemy to the Romulan Republic for good? The alliance pushed far, FAR harder fighting stupid Kazon, Hirogen in the Delta Quadrant than they did fighting the mortal enemy of their ally that sat at their doorstep.
Why do you think the Federation, Klingon Empire didn't push hard against the RSE to remove a mortal enemy to the Romulan Republic for good? The alliance pushed far, FAR harder fighting stupid Kazon, Hirogen in the Delta Quadrant than they did fighting the mortal enemy of their ally that sat at their doorstep.
I'll tell you why. Because despite their malevolence, for all practical purposes by 2409 the RSE and Tal'Shiar are the Star Trek universe's North Korea. Big noise, little substance, therefore largely ignorable by everybody except the locals.
The Alliance doesn't need to push hard because they know that between them Sela and Hakeev did an excellent job of destroying the Empire by themselves, by a combination of narcissistic incompetence and psychopathy (Sela) and selling out his own country (Hakeev). The Empire is a non-entity by its own hand. Get used to it.
"Great War! / And I cannot take more! / Great tour! / I keep on marching on / I play the great score / There will be no encore / Great War! / The War to End All Wars"
— Sabaton, "Great War"
I'll tell you why. Because despite their malevolence, for all practical purposes by 2409 the RSE and Tal'Shiar are the Star Trek universe's North Korea. Big noise, little substance, therefore largely ignorable by everybody except the locals.
The Alliance doesn't need to push hard because they know that between them Sela and Hakeev did an excellent job of destroying the Empire by themselves, by a combination of narcissistic incompetence and psychopathy (Sela) and selling out his own country (Hakeev). The Empire is a non-entity by its own hand. Get used to it.
Yet it's a continued source of aggression between the RSE, Tal Shiar, Romulan Republic. The conflict hasn't stopped. The RSE and Tal Shiar hate each other but they both still view the Republic as rebels. An enemy.
So I say again... The mortal enemy of the Romulan Republic is literally at the doorstep of the Republic. The RSE and Tal Shiar threats are exactly that: A clear, immediate threat to the Republic.
The RSE & Tal Shiar are not a bunch of nobodies in the far away Delta Quadrant. They aren't the True Way who can barely have 2 pieces of latinum to rub together. They aren't a defeated military machine such as the Cardassian Union that never recovered from the Dominion War and can't even begin to rebuild the military now that Uncle Federation is watching their every move and holding all the food.
The RSE & Tal Shiar, though fragments of the once unified RSE, is still a military power and threat to the region. And they share a nice, long border with the Romulan Republic.
Again, despite the combined might of the alliance, it never pushed to finish off the RSE / Tal Shiar for good and let the Republic "take over" all the old RSE space. It didn't even make a push to force the RSE / Tal Shiar to come to the Peace Table and make them formally recognize the independence of the Romulan Republic as a truly separate entity and to stop the war. The alliance didn't even do that!
Yet it's a continued source of aggression between the RSE, Tal Shiar, Romulan Republic. The conflict hasn't stopped. The RSE and Tal Shiar hate each other but they both still view the Republic as rebels. An enemy.
So I say again... The mortal enemy of the Romulan Republic is literally at the doorstep of the Republic. The RSE and Tal Shiar threats are exactly that: A clear, immediate threat to the Republic.
The RSE & Tal Shiar are not a bunch of nobodies in the far away Delta Quadrant. They aren't the True Way who can barely have 2 pieces of latinum to rub together. They aren't a defeated military machine such as the Cardassian Union that never recovered from the Dominion War and can't even begin to rebuild the military now that Uncle Federation is watching their every move and holding all the food.
The RSE & Tal Shiar, though fragments of the once unified RSE, is still a military power and threat to the region. And they share a nice, long border with the Romulan Republic.
Again, despite the combined might of the alliance, it never pushed to finish off the RSE / Tal Shiar for good and let the Republic "take over" all the old RSE space. It didn't even make a push to force the RSE / Tal Shiar to come to the Peace Table and make them formally recognize the independence of the Romulan Republic as a truly separate entity and to stop the war. The alliance didn't even do that!
Two things:
1. I sometimes get a bit of flak for having the Tal'Shiar as the only named foe in the Tal'Diann Oath. They are still a threat (albeit not to the extent they were when Virinat was attacked) and they are close. I have stated that the symbolism must remain, even once the Tal'Shiar are no more than an unpleasant chapter in the history books.
2. You really don't understand the concep;t of Res Publica, do you?
I shall elucidate.
You have stated:
despite the combined might of the alliance, it never pushed to finish off the RSE / Tal Shiar for good and let the Republic "take over" all the old RSE space.
Because Republics who fight Empires have no greater desire than to become Empires themselves, I'm guessing? Oh, wait. Yeah, no they don't.
You have also stated:
It didn't even make a push to force the RSE / Tal Shiar to come to the Peace Table and make them formally recognize the independence of the Romulan Republic as a truly separate entity and to stop the war. The alliance didn't even do that!
Because foes of tyranny always resort to tyranny in order to defeat tyranny, right? Oh, wait. Yeah, no they don't.
The RSE & Tal Shiar, though fragments of the once unified RSE, is still a military power and threat to the region. And they share a nice, long border with the Romulan Republic.
They may be a regional threat (just like the North Koreans. How bout that), and they share a border with the Republic, but its a long border only from our point of view now. They barely control one and a half sectors on the map.
This is a morality and philosophical debate. Stand among the newborn on New Romulus and say you will be sacrificing all of those to restore a dead world and her people..
As any fan of Star Trek would know, changes to history still result in the same people being born. Witness the huge divergence when Cochrane shot the Vulcans.
Archer, Kirk, Spock, Scotty, Kira, none of them were erased.
So the romulans who were born would still be born, but they would live in a world unscarred by tragedy or war.
But the Romulan Republic would not exist. And the first purpose of any polity is to ensure its own existence.
Oh really? Republics who fight Empires have no greater desire than to become Empires themselves? This is going to be a fun one.
The Roman Empire didn't make itself an Empire. The Roman Empire inherited it's empire from the Roman Republic
The Roman Republic before it became big and was still isolated to Italy itself, had to contend with incursions from the outside (i.e. Gallic incursions; Greek colonies on Italy calling on Phyrrus to smash the Romans). The Republic had to conquer and expand or be relentlessly set upon by foes. When it finally did consolidate Italy itself, then that left it toe-to-toe with the other great Western Mediterranean Power. Carthage. Rome and Carthage fought a war of elimination. Defeat the other and the Western Mediterranean was theirs. After that, then the REAL expansion began. The Roman Republic then goes on to deal with the previous Empires east of it that were created from the fracturing of the Hellenic world after Alexander the Great's death. The rest is history.
What's another Republic that fought wars of expansion... Yes! I got one! The French Republic from the late 1700s that later became the French Empire under Napoleon. You could go lots of different ways about this. Like the many coalitions that have been raised against France. Coalitions raised from various Empires.
A Republic is just as apt for expansion and conquest as any type of government.
Remember, the conflict between the Romulan Republic, the RSE, and the loose Tal Shiar is not at an end. There was never a cease fire. There was never an armistice. There was never a cessation of hostilities. There was never a suing for peace. It is still a war.
This is not like the very recent Federation-Klingon War where it was actually agreed upon by both parties to stop the fighting and even come together.
For STO, the Romulan Republic by its birth is an enemy of the state to the RSE and the Tal Shiar. Until that is sorted out one way or another, they will always be treated as rebels to be crushed.
And again as I said before, the Federation-Klingon-Romulan Republic Alliance had done nothing to force a finalization of the issue. It did not finally defeat the RSE to stop the threat to their ally for good. It did not even force the RSE/Tal Shiar by diplomacy or inflict a massive defeat to have them finally leave their Republic alone and recognize them as an independent entity. To be left in peace.
The alliance just left a huge, ambiguous, unsettled future when it could have settled it altogether. Securing some sort of peace, one way or another, between it's Republic ally and the RSE / Tal Shiar, did not occur. It didn't even TRY.
Oh really? Republics who fight Empires have no greater desire than to become Empires themselves? This is going to be a fun one.
The Roman Empire didn't make itself an Empire. The Roman Empire inherited it's empire from the Roman Republic
The Roman Republic before it became big and was still isolated to Italy itself, had to contend with incursions from the outside (i.e. Gallic incursions; Greek colonies on Italy calling on Phyrrus to smash the Romans). The Republic had to conquer and expand or be relentlessly set upon by foes. When it finally did consolidate Italy itself, then that left it toe-to-toe with the other great Western Mediterranean Power. Carthage. Rome and Carthage fought a war of elimination. Defeat the other and the Western Mediterranean was theirs. After that, then the REAL expansion began. The Roman Republic then goes on to deal with the previous Empires east of it that were created from the fracturing of the Hellenic world after Alexander the Great's death. The rest is history.
What's another Republic that fought wars of expansion... Yes! I got one! The French Republic from the late 1700s that later became the French Empire under Napoleon. You could go lots of different ways about this. Like the many coalitions that have been raised against France. Coalitions raised from various Empires.
A Republic is just as apt for expansion and conquest as any type of government.
You need to brush up on your history, I'm afraid. There's one serious flaw in your argument. The Roman Republic wasn't a republic as we typically use the term today, i.e. a representative democracy. Technically the term "republic" comprises any form of government other than a monarchy. The Roman Republic was a democracy of the nobles and the generals, which funnily enough is more or less how the Romulan Star Empire is portrayed in Diane Duane. There's no emperor, just a series of aristocratic councils. Likewise, the French "Republic" you cite was an oligarchy, not a representative democracy.
Whereas Cryptic's authorial intent is pretty clear in that the Romulan Republic is supposed to be a representative democracy.
And yes, of course democracies want to expand their sphere of influence just as much as empires do. That's in the nature of life itself, to want to get more for you and yours. Doesn't matter if you're talking about governments or single-celled organisms, it all has an imperative to expand. The only difference between an empire and a democracy in that regard is in how they go about expanding: empires tend to go for military conquest, democracies prefer soft power because they're beholden to constituents who could give a damn about the glories of empire. The ordinary Romulan off the street just wants decent treatment and enough to eat, which a democratic government is inherently better at providing than a fascist police state.
Remember, the conflict between the Romulan Republic, the RSE, and the loose Tal Shiar is not at an end. There was never a cease fire. There was never an armistice. There was never a cessation of hostilities. There was never a suing for peace. It is still a war.
This is not like the very recent Federation-Klingon War where it was actually agreed upon by both parties to stop the fighting and even come together.
For STO, the Romulan Republic by its birth is an enemy of the state to the RSE and the Tal Shiar. Until that is sorted out one way or another, they will always be treated as rebels to be crushed.
And again as I said before, the Federation-Klingon-Romulan Republic Alliance had done nothing to force a finalization of the issue. It did not finally defeat the RSE to stop the threat to their ally for good. It did not even force the RSE/Tal Shiar by diplomacy or inflict a massive defeat to have them finally leave their Republic alone and recognize them as an independent entity. To be left in peace.
The alliance just left a huge, ambiguous, unsettled future when it could have settled it altogether. Securing some sort of peace, one way or another, between it's Republic ally and the RSE / Tal Shiar, did not occur. It didn't even TRY.
Yeah, it did. It did back in "Empress Sela". Guess what happened? Oh, that's right, Sela never had any intention of negotiating in good faith, instead deciding to blow most of the Star Navy in a frankly nonsensical attack on Vulcan because Sela is an idiot. And then the various player characters trashed much of the rest of the fleets of both the RSN and Tal Shiar in various other engagements. The long and the short of it is, they rendered themselves irrelevant.
So yes, North Korea is an apt comparison. Big noise, little substance, and likely to self-destruct by itself with nothing more than a soft power propaganda nudge. There's no need for a military campaign because the incompetent leadership on the other side makes them more of a threat to themselves than the Alliance is.
"Great War! / And I cannot take more! / Great tour! / I keep on marching on / I play the great score / There will be no encore / Great War! / The War to End All Wars"
— Sabaton, "Great War"
As any fan of Star Trek would know, changes to history still result in the same people being born. Witness the huge divergence when Cochrane shot the Vulcans.
Archer, Kirk, Spock, Scotty, Kira, none of them were erased.
So the romulans who were born would still be born, but they would live in a world unscarred by tragedy or war.
But the Romulan Republic would not exist. And the first purpose of any polity is to ensure its own existence.
As any fan of the show will point out the mirror universe is not an alternate timeline it acts like an antimatter version of the main timeline.
In the City on the Edge of Forever one change altered history to the point that the federation and all that they knew was gone. That was time travel.
As past tense showed later going to the past and altering things altered the future significantly and only temporally shielded vessels and apparently organizations as temporal investigations asked why Sisko was 'now' the image of Curtis Bell.
So time travel alteration is proven.
Originally Posted by pwlaughingtrendy
Network engineers are not ship designers.
Nor should they be. Their ships would look weird.
As any fan of Star Trek would know, changes to history still result in the same people being born. Witness the huge divergence when Cochrane shot the Vulcans.
Archer, Kirk, Spock, Scotty, Kira, none of them were erased.
So the romulans who were born would still be born, but they would live in a world unscarred by tragedy or war.
But the Romulan Republic would not exist. And the first purpose of any polity is to ensure its own existence.
"A world unscarred by tragedy or war"? Pretty sure you're not talking about the actual Star Empire there, but some naive and nostalgic view of something imaginary.
"But the Romulan Republic would not exist." And Romulans and Remans would still be subjects of the decadent and the insane, instead of free.
The current timeline looks so much better in perspective.
"A world unscarred by tragedy or war"? Pretty sure you're not talking about the actual Star Empire there, but some naive and nostalgic view of something imaginary.
"But the Romulan Republic would not exist." And Romulans and Remans would still be subjects of the decadent and the insane, instead of free.
The current timeline looks so much better in perspective.
Agreed.
What we need to remember is that, even before the Hobus incident, there was already a split developing in the RSE. Tal'Aura, Donatra, Taris... it was a mess, all left over from the Shinzon rebellion. And we already know that some of the more questionable experiments conducted by the Tal Shiar, such as the Borg adaptations at the Vault, were being conducted before the Hobus Incident.
History was already on a course - and the old RSE was already walking down very dangerous paths.
The #1 thing about time travel, as we've seen, is that it has unintended long-term consequences. And once you go back thinking "hey, if I just fix this event..." what's to stop you from going back farther, and farther, and farther... Changing the timeline will not 'fix' anything. It'll break the course of events that were set in motion.
The RSE is gone, and Romulus and Remus... are sadly gone. All we can do now is bring those responsible to justice, and build as well as we can from here onwards.
I'm sorry that you think killing billions of innocents is an acceptable price for a small increases in the quality of life for a fraction of that population.
Not only is it - in my view - a morally indefensible position, it's also one that spits in the face of Roddenberry's vision.
The needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few.
I'm sorry that you think killing billions of innocents is an acceptable price for a small increases in the quality of life for a fraction of that population.
Not only is it - in my view - a morally indefensible position, it's also one that spits in the face of Roddenberry's vision.
The needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few.
I doubt Roddenberry's vision involved billions of sentient beings living in terrified subservience to an increasingly inbred collection of backstabbing spoiled rich brats for the sake of utilitarianism. Would you like to discuss utilitarianism, and why I dislike the script on the memorial of Spahkh at Hachae s'Temer, Vastam, ch'Mol'Rihan? Be advised that I'm more or less an Abailardian Intentionalist with a liberal dose of pragmatism.
I don't think anything justifies temporal engineering, though. What happened to Romulus and Remus was horrifying. I doubt anyone can deny that.
But nonetheless, it happened. And no one, nor any organization, has the right to change the timeline.
Yeah I'll agree to disagree here. First that's a personal opinion above and not a unbiased one either, so you'd have no more or less right or authority to say someone shouldn't change the past no more then someone who says they do have the right.
Second there's no proof that Romulus and Remus were Destined to be destroyed so none of that fate hogwash for lack of better words passes.
Third there's no reason that the Republic can't be formed in an altered timeline where Romulus and Remus aren't destroyed. Temporal mechanics are a pain so no one can say for sure.
The basic argument that some seem to be making, is that the billions on Romulus and Remus are better off dead then living under the old RSE, and risk losing the Republic government with the Scattered Romulans and Remans. I'm sorry but that makes no sense, and it seems to come off as a bit cold and selfish. Some might call it pragmatic but it's still self centered
I'm sorry that you think killing billions of innocents is an acceptable price for a small increases in the quality of life for a fraction of that population.
Not only is it - in my view - a morally indefensible position, it's also one that spits in the face of Roddenberry's vision.
The needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few.
The main problem is that the whole Romulan civil war needs to end. This means a treaty of some sort, but it needs to be fair to both sides and presided over by a neutral party.
So the Republic has it's space respected and the RSE has it's space respected.
I also like the fact that's finally shown that the Star navy and the Tal'shiar are at odds. Not all in the Empire are like Hakeev.
and yet... the federation does it everytime something threatens/destroys/damages earth.
BIGASS alien probe? Go back in time, grab a couple whales, bring em forward and pray they mollify the damned thing.
And while they did go into the past to borrow part of what then was considered a renewable resource. they did not work to make a significant change in the past. They used an object from the past to create change in the present. In point this is the one time travel event where they go back and make changes but it all seems to be predestination in origin. As nothing was altered by giving information about transparent aluminium, the U.S. military having a communicator and phaser, And take a person right out of their life.
Originally Posted by pwlaughingtrendy
Network engineers are not ship designers.
Nor should they be. Their ships would look weird.
As any fan of Star Trek would know, changes to history still result in the same people being born. Witness the huge divergence when Cochrane shot the Vulcans.
Archer, Kirk, Spock, Scotty, Kira, none of them were erased.
So the romulans who were born would still be born, but they would live in a world unscarred by tragedy or war.
But the Romulan Republic would not exist. And the first purpose of any polity is to ensure its own existence.
Picking this post as an example of the "go back in time and fix Hobus!" crowd.
In addition to the other counterarguments posters made before I got back, there's the simple fact that if anybody in power on either side really wanted to restore Romulus, it wouldn't be hard to get to the relevant time period. The warp-powered gravitational slingshot method (c.f. Star Trek IV) is reasonably precise and doesn't require any special equipment.
So, since it's patently easy to time-travel, we're left with a burning question: since it would be easy enough to, for example, slingshot back to 2386 and drop a red matter bomb in the Hobus system to remove the star before it could be detonated, why has nobody done it already? Hell, not even Taris, the only person in-universe who is known to have wanted Hobus to be reversed by time travel, tried going back in time with a warp slingshot. She certainly had access to starships with sufficient engine power, given Kirk pulled it off in a crappy little B'rel and she was able to outfit her Remans with T'varos, Mogais, and D'deridexes. So why didn't she just fix it herself instead of wasting time dicking around with trying to convince the Iconians to do it for her?
(Potential explanation that doesn't require any "time police" agencies monitoring things: any temporal incursion on such a massive scale would just spin the time-traveler off into an alternate timeline, a la ST2009. He would therefore not actually fix his original timeline, defeating the purpose of the exercise.)
Side note: this is precisely why making time travel too easy to do is a writing mistake. You punch too many holes in your plots.
"Great War! / And I cannot take more! / Great tour! / I keep on marching on / I play the great score / There will be no encore / Great War! / The War to End All Wars"
— Sabaton, "Great War"
Picking this post as an example of the "go back in time and fix Hobus!" crowd.
In addition to the other counterarguments posters made before I got back, there's the simple fact that if anybody in power on either side really wanted to restore Romulus, it wouldn't be hard to get to the relevant time period. The warp-powered gravitational slingshot method (c.f. Star Trek IV) is reasonably precise and doesn't require any special equipment.
So, since it's patently easy to time-travel, we're left with a burning question: since it would be easy enough to, for example, slingshot back to 2386 and drop a red matter bomb in the Hobus system to remove the star before it could be detonated, why has nobody done it already? Hell, not even Taris, the only person in-universe who is known to have wanted Hobus to be reversed by time travel, tried going back in time with a warp slingshot. She certainly had access to starships with sufficient engine power, given Kirk pulled it off in a crappy little B'rel and she was able to outfit her Remans with T'varos, Mogais, and D'deridexes. So why didn't she just fix it herself instead of wasting time dicking around with trying to convince the Iconians to do it for her?
(Potential explanation that doesn't require any "time police" agencies monitoring things: any temporal incursion on such a massive scale would just spin the time-traveler off into an alternate timeline, a la ST2009. He would therefore not actually fix his original timeline, defeating the purpose of the exercise.)
Side note: this is precisely why making time travel too easy to do is a writing mistake. You punch too many holes in your plots.
To the first point, Cryptics writers.
To the last point. Only if Jar Jar Abrams got his hands on the script. :P
Picking this post as an example of the "go back in time and fix Hobus!" crowd.
In addition to the other counterarguments posters made before I got back, there's the simple fact that if anybody in power on either side really wanted to restore Romulus, it wouldn't be hard to get to the relevant time period. The warp-powered gravitational slingshot method (c.f. Star Trek IV) is reasonably precise and doesn't require any special equipment.
So, since it's patently easy to time-travel, we're left with a burning question: since it would be easy enough to, for example, slingshot back to 2386 and drop a red matter bomb in the Hobus system to remove the star before it could be detonated, why has nobody done it already? Hell, not even Taris, the only person in-universe who is known to have wanted Hobus to be reversed by time travel, tried going back in time with a warp slingshot. She certainly had access to starships with sufficient engine power, given Kirk pulled it off in a crappy little B'rel and she was able to outfit her Remans with T'varos, Mogais, and D'deridexes. So why didn't she just fix it herself instead of wasting time dicking around with trying to convince the Iconians to do it for her?
(Potential explanation that doesn't require any "time police" agencies monitoring things: any temporal incursion on such a massive scale would just spin the time-traveler off into an alternate timeline, a la ST2009. He would therefore not actually fix his original timeline, defeating the purpose of the exercise.)
Side note: this is precisely why making time travel too easy to do is a writing mistake. You punch too many holes in your plots.
Theory has that the slingshot maneuver is classified and not shared. This is supported during the Devidian arc where you are shown a perfect star for the slingshot and had an intelligence officer explain how it is kept secret. So it is fair to assume that because of how damaging it could be. The data was never widely spread and be the reason Taris knows nothing about it. The reason we can't simply use it again is because the calculations are already done and the course put into our computers. The return is done with a one shot borg time travel device to bring us out again. So we lose our chance to learn either method.
Originally Posted by pwlaughingtrendy
Network engineers are not ship designers.
Nor should they be. Their ships would look weird.
and yet... the federation does it everytime something threatens/destroys/damages earth.
And that's where the Federation's 'core values' often collapse on themselves. The Prime Directive and the Temporal Prime Directive are only applicable when they see fit.
Yeah I'll agree to disagree here. First that's a personal opinion above and not a unbiased one either, so you'd have no more or less right or authority to say someone shouldn't change the past no more then someone who says they do have the right.
Second there's no proof that Romulus and Remus were Destined to be destroyed so none of that fate hogwash for lack of better words passes.
Third there's no reason that the Republic can't be formed in an altered timeline where Romulus and Remus aren't destroyed. Temporal mechanics are a pain so no one can say for sure.
Very true, I'll admit that it's a personal opinion. Though in general, time travel as a means of 'fixing' things seems to be generally met with a "hmmm... you sure about that?" remark, I'd say.
And yes, I'd say with how things were going post-Shinzon there was definitely going to be a successful opposition state to the RSE at some point. Donatra formed a short-lived one fairly early on, and that was just the beginning.
Either way, the past has happened, and the future is what we can shape. Going back to shape the past is a dangerous approach, that can undoubtedly have unintended consequences. There's no telling what having Romulus back in the picture would do to galactic politics.
For all we know, the RSE and Tal Shiar might have won, might never have split from each other, and we could have the scariest police state in galactic history, with the TS picking random tributes to their Elachi masters. Romulus itself might was well on its way to becoming the next Iconian servitor state. Not saying that's the only possible course - just saying that even a noble ideal of saving Romulus could have horrifying side-effects.
The main problem is that the whole Romulan civil war needs to end. This means a treaty of some sort, but it needs to be fair to both sides and presided over by a neutral party.
So the Republic has it's space respected and the RSE has it's space respected.
I also like the fact that's finally shown that the Star navy and the Tal'shiar are at odds. Not all in the Empire are like Hakeev.
It makes it a little difficult with 3 'factions' vying for the same space. And it also makes it difficult when the Tal Shiar, as we've seen, refuses to make an open, formal ask for peace - we've only seen a secret meeting in D'Tan's office, where a power-maker agreement was offered.
Peace can't happen until the Tal Shiar troops leave Mol'Rihan. Right now, they're still in active engagement on Republic soil. I'm all for peace within Romulan space, but it has to actually be peace - not more false flags or attempts at deception.
Yeah I'll agree to disagree here. First that's a personal opinion above and not a unbiased one either, so you'd have no more or less right or authority to say someone shouldn't change the past no more then someone who says they do have the right.
Second there's no proof that Romulus and Remus were Destined to be destroyed so none of that fate hogwash for lack of better words passes.
Third there's no reason that the Republic can't be formed in an altered timeline where Romulus and Remus aren't destroyed. Temporal mechanics are a pain so no one can say for sure.
The basic argument that some seem to be making, is that the billions on Romulus and Remus are better off dead then living under the old RSE, and risk losing the Republic government with the Scattered Romulans and Remans. I'm sorry but that makes no sense, and it seems to come off as a bit cold and selfish. Some might call it pragmatic but it's still self centered
IThere is no guarantee at all as to what would happen. Some people seem to act as if its a simple matter of sending someone back in time to blow up Arranhu's ship, and then hunt down Hakeev and Taris, and BOOM....Romulus and Remus don't blow up, the Star Empire never falls, we all go to the lives that could have been and the few dozen Republic haters can dance for joy. But I would like to raise several issues.
1. How would you get there? Slingshot? Like a previous poster pointed out, the knowledge of it is classified. So is knowledge of the right stars to perform the feat. The Guardian of Forever? Also classified. If you could find out about it, would it even let you? And isn't it under quarantine? Why would Starfleet let you through? That would be in violation of the Temporal Prime Directive.
2. How could you take back enough resources to get the job done? Sure, you have the slingshot method, but how precise is that? If you take back multiple ships, couldn't a few degrees off course, or a few seconds difference in the lap send you to different times? How would you corner all of the conspirators, espe ially Hakeev, who is a notoriously slippery TRIBBLE who already escaped the destruction of his flagship, and only allowed himself to be cornered when he thought the Ikkonnsu were coming to save him.
3. Why would the outcome change? The Iconians have been plotting against us for thousands of years. Its entirely likely that they could easily put together another group. Or already had one, but didn't need it. The same goes for going back and killing or arresting Hakeev or Taris ala Minority Report. Additionally, Star Trek has shown us that changes to events in the past create alternate timelines. Who's to say that if you stop Hakeev and Taris, that the prime universe will change at all? You could easily create an alternate timeline, or be shunted into one that already exsists, where Romulus wasn't destroyed.
Finally, I will remind you that everyone is allowed their own opinion. Do I agree with the one Kali expresses? No. Does he have the right to say it? Yes, because the Republic doesnt have Thought Police running around. I will also note that no one here has said they agree with it. We've simply pointed out the flaws in responding to Hobus by saying "Temporal Shenanigans. Apply directly to the disaster."
Theory has that the slingshot maneuver is classified and not shared. This is supported during the Devidian arc where you are shown a perfect star for the slingshot and had an intelligence officer explain how it is kept secret. So it is fair to assume that because of how damaging it could be. The data was never widely spread and be the reason Taris knows nothing about it. The reason we can't simply use it again is because the calculations are already done and the course put into our computers. The return is done with a one shot borg time travel device to bring us out again. So we lose our chance to learn either method.
Or alternatively, everybody in the Star Trek universe, even Section 31, the guys whose job is explicitly to break all the rules, knows that the results of time travel are so unpredictable that it's something you just don't do, period. Hell, even the freaking Borg only ever used it as an option of last resort!
"Great War! / And I cannot take more! / Great tour! / I keep on marching on / I play the great score / There will be no encore / Great War! / The War to End All Wars"
— Sabaton, "Great War"
Comments
Sorry for my bad grammar. But i hope, you understood me. Not everyone is english native speaker.
In our country we appreciate if a foreigner tries to talk to our difficult language and we do not offended him. But in some other countries, the people are much more arrogant. How many foreign languages do you know ? I know three (ok, any perfectly).
You're reminded me of Homer Simpson when he was on holiday in Brazil and complained why local people can not speak American language.
I've been away a while. So I'm back :cool:
What I said there isn't propaganda. It's not made up. What I said there is directly from the Rom Republic temporal agent at the Flotilla standing next to D'Tan. That's as official as you can get
I'm not here to RP/ERP.
I came here stating facts ingame that your own temporal agent spews out. Let me cut & paste it again as a friendly reminder:
"There are many points in the past some Romulans want to change. The destruction of Romulus and Remus being just one of them. Of course, changing these events could erase everything we have earned!"
Heavens forbid that someway, somehow, that Romulus and Remus are not destroyed with countless billions saved! Far fetched to even occur, oh yes. But a worthy goal to save home and all those lives. Of course, the Republic can't have that
Nope. The real thing is that I see too many native English speakers who don't bother to use proper grammar online, and far more non-native speakers who do, that I've become jaded to the possibility of the opposite.
Also, i'm sorry, but how is the number of languages you speak relevant? I'd like to point out that not everyone learns in the same way, and whatever you may think, the number of languages you speak is not indicative of superior intelligence.
Of course, that is also only one man, and his opinion. Assuming that he reflects even a small minority of Republic citizens opinions is the height of foolishness when lacking evidence.
This is a morality and philosophical debate. Stand among the newborn on New Romulus and say you will be sacrificing all of those to restore a dead world and her people. Morally you are killing those that came for those that were. Statistically you can maybe count the lives created versus those that were lost and compare the needs of the many versus the needs of the few. But that sounds a little too Vulcan for the RSE.
The only way we can keep our timeline and restore Romulus and Remus is if someone were to use say the guardian of forever and the jump tech from a dyson sphere to swap a pair of dead moons from today with the living worlds of then. But who would endeavor to do such a grand plan? Not the Federation for it violates too many of the prime directive shields they hide behind. Not the Klingons for there is nothing in it for them to restore a destroyed enemy. The current RSE factions? They seem to be squabbling and scavenging what power they can find for themselves to undertake such a bold operation. Sadly only the RR is in a position to undertake such a vast scheme. Now they just need to have a good reason to do so.
Originally Posted by pwlaughingtrendy
Network engineers are not ship designers.
Nor should they be. Their ships would look weird.
It's all in good fun, guys
It doesn't matter what that one person's opinion is, when his objectives as a temporal agent for the Republic is an official mission. People do things all the time because it's their job. It's their duty to do so, regardless of what they think.
He's standing a few feet away from D'Tan when he's openly telling you this. He's not telling you this in whispers in an isolated room. He's not sending an encrypted message. He's not beaming in to your office or whatever like the Tal Shiar did with D'Tan with their "offers." He's not handing you a secret, folded note like you would in class.
He's right there openly telling you this with D'Tan nearby.
It's state policy. This isn't Section31 we're talking about.
Anyways...
Remember, the Republic had zero chance of even starting if the RSE did not face the cataclysm of Hobus with Romulus, Remus going up in smoke. If Romulus survived that meant the seat and base of power of the Empire remained intact. Now, don't get me wrong, Shinzon's killing of the Senate in Nemesis did untold damage to stability. The Romulan Senate was far more stable than relying on the subsequent dictators, but the base of power and seat of government was always there. Romulus' destruction was the final push needed to irrevocably shatter unified Romulan power.
It's no secret that the Federation and Klingon Empire would stand to gain from a fractured, non-unified Romulan base of power. Both powers did not come to D'Tan's aid for the sake of being nice guys. Before the Iconian War, did the alliance actively help in the war against what remained of the fractured RSE? Don't you think that a push by the allies to finish off the RSE was feasible? Or to further the war on the RSE by the Allies to force the Empire to come to peace terms with the Republic and accept it as an independent state and not a collection of rebels? They were without Sela and the Tal Shiar was irrevocably wasted due to Hakeev's awful attempts at comic villain. Typically in an alliance, the highest form of a diplomatic agreement you can make between sovereign powers, "The enemy of my friend is my enemy." But that hasn't held so even before the strains of the Iconian War.
Why do you think the Federation, Klingon Empire didn't push hard against the RSE to remove a mortal enemy to the Romulan Republic for good? The alliance pushed far, FAR harder fighting stupid Kazon, Hirogen in the Delta Quadrant than they did fighting the mortal enemy of their ally that sat at their doorstep.
I'll tell you why. Because despite their malevolence, for all practical purposes by 2409 the RSE and Tal'Shiar are the Star Trek universe's North Korea. Big noise, little substance, therefore largely ignorable by everybody except the locals.
The Alliance doesn't need to push hard because they know that between them Sela and Hakeev did an excellent job of destroying the Empire by themselves, by a combination of narcissistic incompetence and psychopathy (Sela) and selling out his own country (Hakeev). The Empire is a non-entity by its own hand. Get used to it.
— Sabaton, "Great War"
Check out https://unitedfederationofpla.net/s/
Yet it's a continued source of aggression between the RSE, Tal Shiar, Romulan Republic. The conflict hasn't stopped. The RSE and Tal Shiar hate each other but they both still view the Republic as rebels. An enemy.
So I say again... The mortal enemy of the Romulan Republic is literally at the doorstep of the Republic. The RSE and Tal Shiar threats are exactly that: A clear, immediate threat to the Republic.
The RSE & Tal Shiar are not a bunch of nobodies in the far away Delta Quadrant. They aren't the True Way who can barely have 2 pieces of latinum to rub together. They aren't a defeated military machine such as the Cardassian Union that never recovered from the Dominion War and can't even begin to rebuild the military now that Uncle Federation is watching their every move and holding all the food.
The RSE & Tal Shiar, though fragments of the once unified RSE, is still a military power and threat to the region. And they share a nice, long border with the Romulan Republic.
Again, despite the combined might of the alliance, it never pushed to finish off the RSE / Tal Shiar for good and let the Republic "take over" all the old RSE space. It didn't even make a push to force the RSE / Tal Shiar to come to the Peace Table and make them formally recognize the independence of the Romulan Republic as a truly separate entity and to stop the war. The alliance didn't even do that!
Two things:
1. I sometimes get a bit of flak for having the Tal'Shiar as the only named foe in the Tal'Diann Oath. They are still a threat (albeit not to the extent they were when Virinat was attacked) and they are close. I have stated that the symbolism must remain, even once the Tal'Shiar are no more than an unpleasant chapter in the history books.
2. You really don't understand the concep;t of Res Publica, do you?
I shall elucidate.
You have stated:
Because Republics who fight Empires have no greater desire than to become Empires themselves, I'm guessing? Oh, wait. Yeah, no they don't.
You have also stated:
Because foes of tyranny always resort to tyranny in order to defeat tyranny, right? Oh, wait. Yeah, no they don't.
*turning to the audience* I say "Enough of this imperialist drivel! Contact your local Tal Diann recruiting office today!
They may be a regional threat (just like the North Koreans. How bout that), and they share a border with the Republic, but its a long border only from our point of view now. They barely control one and a half sectors on the map.
As any fan of Star Trek would know, changes to history still result in the same people being born. Witness the huge divergence when Cochrane shot the Vulcans.
Archer, Kirk, Spock, Scotty, Kira, none of them were erased.
So the romulans who were born would still be born, but they would live in a world unscarred by tragedy or war.
But the Romulan Republic would not exist. And the first purpose of any polity is to ensure its own existence.
Oh really? Republics who fight Empires have no greater desire than to become Empires themselves? This is going to be a fun one.
The Roman Empire didn't make itself an Empire. The Roman Empire inherited it's empire from the Roman Republic
The Roman Republic before it became big and was still isolated to Italy itself, had to contend with incursions from the outside (i.e. Gallic incursions; Greek colonies on Italy calling on Phyrrus to smash the Romans). The Republic had to conquer and expand or be relentlessly set upon by foes. When it finally did consolidate Italy itself, then that left it toe-to-toe with the other great Western Mediterranean Power. Carthage. Rome and Carthage fought a war of elimination. Defeat the other and the Western Mediterranean was theirs. After that, then the REAL expansion began. The Roman Republic then goes on to deal with the previous Empires east of it that were created from the fracturing of the Hellenic world after Alexander the Great's death. The rest is history.
What's another Republic that fought wars of expansion... Yes! I got one! The French Republic from the late 1700s that later became the French Empire under Napoleon. You could go lots of different ways about this. Like the many coalitions that have been raised against France. Coalitions raised from various Empires.
A Republic is just as apt for expansion and conquest as any type of government.
Remember, the conflict between the Romulan Republic, the RSE, and the loose Tal Shiar is not at an end. There was never a cease fire. There was never an armistice. There was never a cessation of hostilities. There was never a suing for peace. It is still a war.
This is not like the very recent Federation-Klingon War where it was actually agreed upon by both parties to stop the fighting and even come together.
For STO, the Romulan Republic by its birth is an enemy of the state to the RSE and the Tal Shiar. Until that is sorted out one way or another, they will always be treated as rebels to be crushed.
And again as I said before, the Federation-Klingon-Romulan Republic Alliance had done nothing to force a finalization of the issue. It did not finally defeat the RSE to stop the threat to their ally for good. It did not even force the RSE/Tal Shiar by diplomacy or inflict a massive defeat to have them finally leave their Republic alone and recognize them as an independent entity. To be left in peace.
The alliance just left a huge, ambiguous, unsettled future when it could have settled it altogether. Securing some sort of peace, one way or another, between it's Republic ally and the RSE / Tal Shiar, did not occur. It didn't even TRY.
Whereas Cryptic's authorial intent is pretty clear in that the Romulan Republic is supposed to be a representative democracy.
And yes, of course democracies want to expand their sphere of influence just as much as empires do. That's in the nature of life itself, to want to get more for you and yours. Doesn't matter if you're talking about governments or single-celled organisms, it all has an imperative to expand. The only difference between an empire and a democracy in that regard is in how they go about expanding: empires tend to go for military conquest, democracies prefer soft power because they're beholden to constituents who could give a damn about the glories of empire. The ordinary Romulan off the street just wants decent treatment and enough to eat, which a democratic government is inherently better at providing than a fascist police state.
Yeah, it did. It did back in "Empress Sela".
So yes, North Korea is an apt comparison. Big noise, little substance, and likely to self-destruct by itself with nothing more than a soft power propaganda nudge. There's no need for a military campaign because the incompetent leadership on the other side makes them more of a threat to themselves than the Alliance is.
— Sabaton, "Great War"
Check out https://unitedfederationofpla.net/s/
As any fan of the show will point out the mirror universe is not an alternate timeline it acts like an antimatter version of the main timeline.
In the City on the Edge of Forever one change altered history to the point that the federation and all that they knew was gone. That was time travel.
As past tense showed later going to the past and altering things altered the future significantly and only temporally shielded vessels and apparently organizations as temporal investigations asked why Sisko was 'now' the image of Curtis Bell.
So time travel alteration is proven.
Originally Posted by pwlaughingtrendy
Network engineers are not ship designers.
Nor should they be. Their ships would look weird.
"A world unscarred by tragedy or war"? Pretty sure you're not talking about the actual Star Empire there, but some naive and nostalgic view of something imaginary.
"But the Romulan Republic would not exist." And Romulans and Remans would still be subjects of the decadent and the insane, instead of free.
The current timeline looks so much better in perspective.
Agreed.
What we need to remember is that, even before the Hobus incident, there was already a split developing in the RSE. Tal'Aura, Donatra, Taris... it was a mess, all left over from the Shinzon rebellion. And we already know that some of the more questionable experiments conducted by the Tal Shiar, such as the Borg adaptations at the Vault, were being conducted before the Hobus Incident.
History was already on a course - and the old RSE was already walking down very dangerous paths.
The #1 thing about time travel, as we've seen, is that it has unintended long-term consequences. And once you go back thinking "hey, if I just fix this event..." what's to stop you from going back farther, and farther, and farther... Changing the timeline will not 'fix' anything. It'll break the course of events that were set in motion.
The RSE is gone, and Romulus and Remus... are sadly gone. All we can do now is bring those responsible to justice, and build as well as we can from here onwards.
Not only is it - in my view - a morally indefensible position, it's also one that spits in the face of Roddenberry's vision.
The needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few.
I don't think anything justifies temporal engineering, though. What happened to Romulus and Remus was horrifying. I doubt anyone can deny that.
But nonetheless, it happened. And no one, nor any organization, has the right to change the timeline.
and yet... the federation does it everytime something threatens/destroys/damages earth.
BIGASS alien probe? Go back in time, grab a couple whales, bring em forward and pray they mollify the damned thing.
I doubt Roddenberry's vision involved billions of sentient beings living in terrified subservience to an increasingly inbred collection of backstabbing spoiled rich brats for the sake of utilitarianism. Would you like to discuss utilitarianism, and why I dislike the script on the memorial of Spahkh at Hachae s'Temer, Vastam, ch'Mol'Rihan? Be advised that I'm more or less an Abailardian Intentionalist with a liberal dose of pragmatism.
Yeah I'll agree to disagree here. First that's a personal opinion above and not a unbiased one either, so you'd have no more or less right or authority to say someone shouldn't change the past no more then someone who says they do have the right.
Second there's no proof that Romulus and Remus were Destined to be destroyed so none of that fate hogwash for lack of better words passes.
Third there's no reason that the Republic can't be formed in an altered timeline where Romulus and Remus aren't destroyed. Temporal mechanics are a pain so no one can say for sure.
The basic argument that some seem to be making, is that the billions on Romulus and Remus are better off dead then living under the old RSE, and risk losing the Republic government with the Scattered Romulans and Remans. I'm sorry but that makes no sense, and it seems to come off as a bit cold and selfish. Some might call it pragmatic but it's still self centered
[/SIGPIC]
The main problem is that the whole Romulan civil war needs to end. This means a treaty of some sort, but it needs to be fair to both sides and presided over by a neutral party.
So the Republic has it's space respected and the RSE has it's space respected.
I also like the fact that's finally shown that the Star navy and the Tal'shiar are at odds. Not all in the Empire are like Hakeev.
And while they did go into the past to borrow part of what then was considered a renewable resource. they did not work to make a significant change in the past. They used an object from the past to create change in the present. In point this is the one time travel event where they go back and make changes but it all seems to be predestination in origin. As nothing was altered by giving information about transparent aluminium, the U.S. military having a communicator and phaser, And take a person right out of their life.
Originally Posted by pwlaughingtrendy
Network engineers are not ship designers.
Nor should they be. Their ships would look weird.
In addition to the other counterarguments posters made before I got back, there's the simple fact that if anybody in power on either side really wanted to restore Romulus, it wouldn't be hard to get to the relevant time period. The warp-powered gravitational slingshot method (c.f. Star Trek IV) is reasonably precise and doesn't require any special equipment.
So, since it's patently easy to time-travel, we're left with a burning question: since it would be easy enough to, for example, slingshot back to 2386 and drop a red matter bomb in the Hobus system to remove the star before it could be detonated, why has nobody done it already? Hell, not even Taris, the only person in-universe who is known to have wanted Hobus to be reversed by time travel, tried going back in time with a warp slingshot. She certainly had access to starships with sufficient engine power, given Kirk pulled it off in a crappy little B'rel and she was able to outfit her Remans with T'varos, Mogais, and D'deridexes. So why didn't she just fix it herself instead of wasting time dicking around with trying to convince the Iconians to do it for her?
(Potential explanation that doesn't require any "time police" agencies monitoring things: any temporal incursion on such a massive scale would just spin the time-traveler off into an alternate timeline, a la ST2009. He would therefore not actually fix his original timeline, defeating the purpose of the exercise.)
Side note: this is precisely why making time travel too easy to do is a writing mistake. You punch too many holes in your plots.
— Sabaton, "Great War"
Check out https://unitedfederationofpla.net/s/
To the first point, Cryptics writers.
To the last point. Only if Jar Jar Abrams got his hands on the script.
Theory has that the slingshot maneuver is classified and not shared. This is supported during the Devidian arc where you are shown a perfect star for the slingshot and had an intelligence officer explain how it is kept secret. So it is fair to assume that because of how damaging it could be. The data was never widely spread and be the reason Taris knows nothing about it. The reason we can't simply use it again is because the calculations are already done and the course put into our computers. The return is done with a one shot borg time travel device to bring us out again. So we lose our chance to learn either method.
Originally Posted by pwlaughingtrendy
Network engineers are not ship designers.
Nor should they be. Their ships would look weird.
And that's where the Federation's 'core values' often collapse on themselves. The Prime Directive and the Temporal Prime Directive are only applicable when they see fit.
Very true, I'll admit that it's a personal opinion. Though in general, time travel as a means of 'fixing' things seems to be generally met with a "hmmm... you sure about that?" remark, I'd say.
And yes, I'd say with how things were going post-Shinzon there was definitely going to be a successful opposition state to the RSE at some point. Donatra formed a short-lived one fairly early on, and that was just the beginning.
Either way, the past has happened, and the future is what we can shape. Going back to shape the past is a dangerous approach, that can undoubtedly have unintended consequences. There's no telling what having Romulus back in the picture would do to galactic politics.
For all we know, the RSE and Tal Shiar might have won, might never have split from each other, and we could have the scariest police state in galactic history, with the TS picking random tributes to their Elachi masters. Romulus itself might was well on its way to becoming the next Iconian servitor state. Not saying that's the only possible course - just saying that even a noble ideal of saving Romulus could have horrifying side-effects.
It makes it a little difficult with 3 'factions' vying for the same space. And it also makes it difficult when the Tal Shiar, as we've seen, refuses to make an open, formal ask for peace - we've only seen a secret meeting in D'Tan's office, where a power-maker agreement was offered.
Peace can't happen until the Tal Shiar troops leave Mol'Rihan. Right now, they're still in active engagement on Republic soil. I'm all for peace within Romulan space, but it has to actually be peace - not more false flags or attempts at deception.
IThere is no guarantee at all as to what would happen. Some people seem to act as if its a simple matter of sending someone back in time to blow up Arranhu's ship, and then hunt down Hakeev and Taris, and BOOM....Romulus and Remus don't blow up, the Star Empire never falls, we all go to the lives that could have been and the few dozen Republic haters can dance for joy. But I would like to raise several issues.
1. How would you get there? Slingshot? Like a previous poster pointed out, the knowledge of it is classified. So is knowledge of the right stars to perform the feat. The Guardian of Forever? Also classified. If you could find out about it, would it even let you? And isn't it under quarantine? Why would Starfleet let you through? That would be in violation of the Temporal Prime Directive.
2. How could you take back enough resources to get the job done? Sure, you have the slingshot method, but how precise is that? If you take back multiple ships, couldn't a few degrees off course, or a few seconds difference in the lap send you to different times? How would you corner all of the conspirators, espe ially Hakeev, who is a notoriously slippery TRIBBLE who already escaped the destruction of his flagship, and only allowed himself to be cornered when he thought the Ikkonnsu were coming to save him.
3. Why would the outcome change? The Iconians have been plotting against us for thousands of years. Its entirely likely that they could easily put together another group. Or already had one, but didn't need it. The same goes for going back and killing or arresting Hakeev or Taris ala Minority Report. Additionally, Star Trek has shown us that changes to events in the past create alternate timelines. Who's to say that if you stop Hakeev and Taris, that the prime universe will change at all? You could easily create an alternate timeline, or be shunted into one that already exsists, where Romulus wasn't destroyed.
Finally, I will remind you that everyone is allowed their own opinion. Do I agree with the one Kali expresses? No. Does he have the right to say it? Yes, because the Republic doesnt have Thought Police running around. I will also note that no one here has said they agree with it. We've simply pointed out the flaws in responding to Hobus by saying "Temporal Shenanigans. Apply directly to the disaster."
Or alternatively, everybody in the Star Trek universe, even Section 31, the guys whose job is explicitly to break all the rules, knows that the results of time travel are so unpredictable that it's something you just don't do, period. Hell, even the freaking Borg only ever used it as an option of last resort!
— Sabaton, "Great War"
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