You can get BNPs from Defera.
You can get APCs from Kobali.
You can get Isos from the Dyson Battlezone.
You can get Implants from the Dyson Adventure zone.
Neither Rom nor Nukara require Elite Marks.
I know you can get the tokens for Dyson and 8472 Rep at good amounts in their respective adventure zones.
But the APCs at Kobali BZ are a daily thing with a whopping amount of 1, from what I read on the patch notes. Not sure about BNPs at Defera. I haven't been there in more than a year
You don't start raiding in order to gear up for raids.
Advanced can hardly be compared to raiding, it is more like doing instances above basic difficulty (which is generally how MMO improves gear before doing raids which would be elite).
A test server is supposed to be used to properly test patches before patching anything....
I know you can get the tokens for Dyson and 8472 Rep at good amounts in their respective adventure zones.
But the APCs at Kobali BZ are a daily thing with a whopping amount of 1, from what I read on the patch notes. Not sure about BNPs at Defera. I haven't been there in more than a year
It's one per mission, two missions - so you can get two APCs a day from those missions. 3 days for 6 and one piece, 5 days for 10 and two pieces.
Take the advice or ignore it kid, I don't particularly care. But when your entire position hinges on people accepting your word about data. Than it works out better when you avoid throwing temper tantrums or insulting anywhere from 25 to 90% of the people reading your posts.
No, I just chalked the adjusted standard up to being the result of trying to make your position look stronger than it is. You see, by creating a lower standard of acceptable DPS than the one you have used in every other instance of this thread, you can make the number of people that are not performing acceptably in STF look significantly smaller and thus much less of a problem. Or in other words, the kind of disregard for facts and honest discourse that I've come to expect from people who think calling others 'lazy liberals' will score him points.
Now, if we actually look at your data set objectively, and apply 5k as a minimum dps. Despite your posts indicating that 7.5k as a fairer minimum, it being the average for the 5-10k dps that you keep quoting. Despite the community standard of 10k dps. And despite Ridcully's standard of 7k DPS based on a ballpark amount of damage that needs to be inflicted to stop probes. This, by the way, is a gift to you. It's liberal generosity in order to make you look better. Because by using 5K DPS as a hard minimum, you're only calling 28% of the people in your own, cherry picked data set, leechers.
I'm interested in honesty and transparency, so I'll inform you that I reached this figure by removing your redundant data and just replacing the 69 individual entries of your personal DPS with a single tick in the 'above 5k' column. This if ofcourse under the assumption that the origin of this data was from personal experience, or runs that you individually participated in, and that you routinely get more than 5k dps. If either of these are untrue, you can present providence for your data set and I'll adjust accordingly. I also removed the two DNC's as anomolies, rather than count them as sub-5k performances. That left us with 275 valid data points, 77 of them are below 5K.
Now, the topic at hand, just like I don't care when you feel it's acceptable to call someone a "lazy liberal" I also don't care when you think it's okay to call someone a "leecher." Both situations out you as an obnoxious child but add no clarity to the debate. Some people have low DPS, some people have high DPS, all of them are Cryptic's customers and all of them, apparently, are trying to do ISA.
So regarding the topic of the thread. According to Viral Dancer's data set, 1 in 4 people participating in ISA are pulling in less than 5k DPS. That's a significant portion of the in game population. Now, is this enough to justify changes being made to advanced STF's to accomodate that quarter of the customer base? Should Cryptic focus their directions on other changes, like adding BNP's to the Deferra Adventure zone, so that players unable to perform adequately, for whatever reason, do not feel like their own character advancement has been blocked? Or should cryptic focus their attentions away from the reputation system entirely?
This is like saying, we should lower the standards of 1st place so, that everyone who usually comes in 3rd and lower, should be granted 1st place also!
So STFs are not meant to be for casual players?
This would mean that the entire reputation system is not for casual players... just like the R&D system.... all item upgrades... all R&D items.... ...
Without playing the STFs you barely have a chance to get the resouces to take part in nearly everything that cryptic has introcuded to the players over the past months and years.
STF's are designed for pretty much anybody but, those anybody's need actually put in some effort and, actually use common sense.
Otherwise, they might as well let their cat/dog/hamster/etc., play for them.
I've played them before and finally got a Ancient power cell. However, lately it seems that you fight, kill all 15 Borg, and just as it cuts to bringing in the last big ship, it brings up "Thank You" and shows failed the mission in red letters and starts the count down of leaving the map...this has happened over and over and over.
Is it bugged or do I know understand how it's supposed to be played?
I can go in just about any other map and get all the processors, etc. I want but not Ancient Power Cells. Does Omega want us to be able to have their stuff of are they going to discontinue their line of produces since there is no other place or game you can get them in...that I know of.
Thanks for any help on this since I am still fairly new and learning the ropes.
I've played them before and finally got a Ancient power cell. However, lately it seems that you fight, kill all 15 Borg, and just as it cuts to bringing in the last big ship, it brings up "Thank You" and shows failed the mission in red letters and starts the count down of leaving the map...this has happened over and over and over.
Is it bugged or do I know understand how it's supposed to be played?
I can go in just about any other map and get all the processors, etc. I want but not Ancient Power Cells. Does Omega want us to be able to have their stuff of are they going to discontinue their line of produces since there is no other place or game you can get them in...that I know of.
Thanks for any help on this since I am still fairly new and learning the ropes.
If you are referring to borg disconnected, than you do not kill the 15 borg vessels, you are supposed to save the 15 disconnected borg vessels trying to reach the huge glowing re-assimilation area.
Most often, this fails because people do not make an active attempt to rescue them and, instead just spend the whole mission shooting every thing that flies.
But, there has been and, may still be an issue where not all 15 disconnected vessels, show up in a correct timely fashion and, this can lead to a failure as well.
Something I was thinking about in regard to that discussion of minimum DPS, gets into looking more at the Trans DPS vs. Overall DPS. The following is an example - it's not meant to be representative of players as a whole - it's just a single example.
Overall DPS - Left Trans DPS - Right Trans DPS
Player A) 12142.754 - 20411.34 - 20099.215
Player 11701.541 - 8787.844 - 18575.732
Player C) 9805.057 - 9100.508 - 10291.818
Player D) 8592.62 - 16667.377 - 11904.269
Player E) 2104.917 - 1575.5 - 0.0
Now, we can't just add those numbers up to see the Group DPS for each situation - can, and Hell, I've done it in the past; but it's not quite right - it is, but it isn't - kind of.
Something to look at would be the engagement time with the Trans, say Left / Right, eh?
Player A) 53s / 51s
Player 32s / 30s
Player C) 67s / 55s
Player D) 53s / 41s
Player E) 16s / 0s
If everybody had attacked around the same time, give or take somebody taking the time to toss out the GW, what would have been the actual DPS of each person sort of thing, eh? Gets into buff/debuff cycling/duration and the like.
The general gist, though, is that in looking at the DPS required to bring down a Trans is going to be single target DPS (maybe working in some breaches from Spheres to help things along) without travel time.
But it gets a bit complicated with that single target thing when one is doing a comparison to the overall, even factoring in the travel time and the rest - because you get into how much of that overall DPS came from multiple target DPS that wouldn't factor in versus that single target. Somebody doing FAW vs. 2, CSV vs. 3, etc...might show nifty DPS during that period of time; but how much of that DPS was actually being done to the target that needs to get popped sort of thing, eh?
Let me grab another example (again, just an example - not meant to be representative - grabbed via the RNG from random.org)...
Player A) 17337.602 - 23615.471 - 23937.428
Player 10521.102 - 1637.125 - 17945.574
Player C) 8732.059 - 8711.212 - 13889.229
Player D) 8489.575 - 15353.887 - 16540.072
Player E) 2593.976 - 0.0 - 0.0
And again just looking at the engagement time on the two Trans, with Left / Right...
Player A) 68s / 42s
Player 24s / 40s
Player C) 52s / 35s
Player D) 44s / 28s
Player E) 0s / 0s
Where all in all, this kind of leads to the competing goals that exist in ISA:
1) Burn the Transformers to avoid the Fail.
2) Burn everything to get the Optional.
I say that, because say one considers 10s of FAW from somebody firing at two targets vs. a single target. Their DPS is double vs. two and half vs. one; depending on how you look at it. Course, folks reach a certain point and just obliterate everything...but in looking at pugs, eh?
Gets into that looking at which DPS when looking at DPS, right? Cause woodwhity did a pretty nifty post here...
We could always stop the time it take for the spheres (the first nanite sphere to be exact) to travel from the gate to the transformer. Lets call that travel time.
Now we take the HP of the Transformer. And by that we are very, very courteous, as we assume all Gens are taken down within the same second. But obviously if we wouldnt assume that, the minimum DPS required would rise.
So the minimum Team-DPS would be HP_Transformer/Travel_Time= Team_DPS_Min.
Obviously we have to assume that a team is composed of 5 players, so the Minimum player dps is DPS_MIN=Team_DPS_Min/5.
Now, obviously I assumed nobody has CC. That is a valid assumption, as you cant assume anyone in your pugteam has CC with them. Of course you can always ensure you have CC with you, but we are talking about a minimum dps for any given pug.
If we would go for optional, obviously this minimum dps would be (HP_Sum_Enemies/(15*60))/5, or to bring it in line HP_Sum_Enemies/4500.
...where imho, the two wouldn't necessarily have to be the same.
A group could have the DPS to burn the Transformers without CC while failing the Optional.
A group could have the DPS that would suggest nailing the Optional but fail on burning a Transformer.
I've commented a few times here and there about fails taking place when the log suggested there was plenty of DPS because folks were "chasing butterflies"...basically the DPS the group had wasn't being focused to burn down either that first or second Transformer.
So would the focus on the discussion in regard to ISA...focus on avoiding the Fail rather than getting the Optional? Can't get the Optional if it Fails, right?
Which also gets into some of the discussion about that "1v1" of a Sphere or a "1v10" with Spheres/Nanites/etc...if somebody's grabbing all sorts of aggro and dying, well - then they're contributing 0 DPS to trying to get that Transformer down or 0 DPS toward getting the Optional.
Which gets into the dangers of copying some of the builds out there - where those builds are being used by certain pilots in certain groups...not necessarily by other pilots in random groups. They used to put that warning on some of the builds (not sure if they still do), but people got their panties bunched up thinking those guys were being egotistical by doing so...nah, it was just a straightforward warning that folks should have paid attention to, imho.
The whole process...could be pretty intimidating for folks that aren't gamers, don't have experience in other MMOs with any dungeondelving with concepts like trash mobs, trashspawn, single target, AoE spam, and the rest...
...and with folks going at it at different levels in the same "level" of content, it can cause all sorts of folks all sorts of issues, eh?
...where imho, the two wouldn't necessarily have to be the same.
A group could have the DPS to burn the Transformers without CC while failing the Optional.
A group could have the DPS that would suggest nailing the Optional but fail on burning a Transformer.
Yeah of course, thats why I said there are underlying assumptions. I am with you on this, but the guy you were arguing with wanted something... more "solid", and so I just tried to make a calculation.
Not to mention 10k dps and 10k dps on the transformer (basically BFAW vs SS) would also lead to totally different results
Yeah of course, thats why I said there are underlying assumptions. I am with you on this, but the guy you were arguing with wanted something... more "solid", and so I just tried to make a calculation.
Not to mention 10k dps and 10k dps on the transformer (basically BFAW vs SS) would also lead to totally different results
Heh, I liked that you did that, appreciated it...it's just not something I could do...I was all over the place with my ranges, with amounts that might look lower than anybody would expect...and just wanted to try to explain where I was coming from with that while tying it into some of the problems folks might experience. Lol, folks used to complain I couldn't give a straight answer...and I guess I've still got that going for me - the number of times I answered something with, "Depends..."
I can see both sids of the arguement... what needs to happen imo is advanced needs to cut out the stupid arbritray timed optionals as mandatory that are optionals in normal... else make the optionals mandatory in both normal and advanced...
Normal needs to prepare people better for Advanced just as Advanced needs to prepare people better for elite... and elite needs a huge boost to difficulty.
If normal prepared people better for advanced you could then raise advanced difficulty. As it stands now you can steamrol normal with mediocre gear the get steamrolled in advanced because you have no idea what is going on.
exactly. This has been the issue for YEARS.
The thing is before all the changes, only, well, lets call them subpar players ever bothered with Normal. Then when they felt like they could handle it they would move up to advanced.
99% of the time, these were the people who caused the optionals to fail. Simply because they were unaware that the missions were completely different. They more or less learned to play it wrong. And many of us carried bad players for years. And it wasn't really a big deal if you failed optionals. A few marks. Big Deal.
Now you have experienced players who struggle in these. Newer players HAVE to do Normal. And therefore don't have any clue what to do in the other versions.
The other thing is that many of the early STFs are just poorly designed from the get go. Vorn ground for instance was very unforgiving before all the changes.
And if you don't have someone who has run In Stasis before, would anyone actually be able to figure out how that all works. I know years ago I probably ran it 50X before I even knew where the room was with controls. Even before the changes you always had someone who just didn't get WTF B2 meant, (or someone who aggroed the entire room)
I see this discussion of missions being completely different, but it's something I guess I just can't see from where I'm at. Could somebody give an example of a Normal queue that doesn't prepare somebody for an Advanced queue that doesn't prepare somebody for an Elite queue?
I see this discussion of missions being completely different, but it's something I guess I just can't see from where I'm at. Could somebody give an example of a Normal queue that doesn't prepare somebody for an Advanced queue that doesn't prepare somebody for an Elite queue?
I will first use The Vortex space as an example.
In normal, it can be steamrolled by almost all fresh level 50 players in MK X gear, and with a free level 40 ship. They are actually easier than they were before the changes to difficulty, but are now locked to level 50, instead of level 45.
Now, you take those same players that may have just gone in, and shot everything till it dies, with no actual strategy, and put them in advanced, and they will not be able to do it. Yet, both difficulty levels are open to them.
Another example is The Cure space.
Before DR, and we only had the old normal, and elite, it was easy on normal. Now, again, it is extremely easier than before.
However, there are strategies that can be used on normal, that even the best vets will never try on advanced. But, you go into Advanced because you just beat normal 25 times, and you have no idea what just happened.
Same as going from normal to elite. There are tactics that will work in normal that will never work in elite, unless it is a vet team that is able to push out high DPS.
The only thing that you get from normal, to advanced, to elite is you know where certain gates, ships, transformers, etc are located before going into the next higher difficulty. Aside from that, there are differences in hp pools that will keep one tactic from working, whereas it was not a problem in a lower difficulty.
So, they don't really train you for the next difficulty. It is still trial and error, someone tells them what to do, or they need to find out where to go for the answers.
However, the gap between normal an advanced is not the only problem. The nerfs from high DPS players steamrolling advanced queues are a problem. Not really the players themselves, but the response that is made by the developers making decisions. They try to make the advanced queues even harder, thereby making it harder for new players to level 50+ to learn to play them.
Also, you have players that are D-Bags to ones that may not know what to do in them, therefore encouraging them to close, or ignore chat. Whereas I have found that a lot of times it is someone that didn't know what they were doing wrong, and needed help.
I have helped a lot of players with learning how to do the STFs and PVEs that I actually met in them. Many times, they were the ones that caused the failure. But they were not helped by other players, but were treated like TRIBBLE, and were getting frustrated for hearing how horrible of a person they are from others.
With the game being focused more towards DPS after DR, it has increased the abuse from those that see themselves as perfect.
Leader of Elite Guardian Academy.Would you like to learn how to run a fleet? Would you like to know how to do ship builds (true budget as well as high end)?The join the Academy today!
Elite players should have their stfs and the difficulty in advanced could be lowered; 30k dps players shouldn't be in ISA, this is a nonsense. they shoud have elite infected the conduit, elite khitomer vortex etc.
Clearly they have jacked up the difficulty several times over. I can't even solo a sphere in my monster fleet patrol escort refit. Trip XIV Dual Heavy's up front, Elite regen turrets in back... The people are playing the parts right... it's just they literally overwhelm you.
I have been able to succeed once in about my last 20 tries... last few making sure to hook with quality players. This is getting crazy. I need one Damn Borg Neural Processor and of course will eventually need others and they have nearly destroyed the possibility of getting them.
I can never think of enough ways to say how much I hate Cryptic.
Welcome back to STO.
DR saw a major shift in difficulty and abilities as part of a repositioning of the STF's. Advanced STF's while difficult, are not impossible. They require planning and the understanding that players work together. where before a single player could 'carry' an elite match, the new advanced require that all of the players be active participants.
I average 10-20 successful ISA's across 8 alts every day. I have a method that works. It's not a big secret - it has three simple rules:
1.) Ensure your team knows what they are doing.
2.) Improve your baseline skills in Normals first
3.) Join a chat channel with 'rules' as to how to pug.
This isn't just an issue about dps. It's about player skill, and the willingness to adapt tactics as the mission evolves. As a baseline having at least 10K dps makes these mission doable IF you follow a plan.
Yes, you're going to play with people who can do less than 5K dps when you pug. It's inevitable. Yes, you're going to player with people who will ignore protocol, becasue they 'know better'. That's a given. But if you can get at least 10K dps, then there are channels which you can be assured of a 99.9% success rate because they do follow plans, they do follow protocols, and they adapt if theres an issue.
Theres close to 3000 of use active there. More than 500 on every hour of the day.
In normal, it can be steamrolled by almost all fresh level 50 players in MK X gear, and with a free level 40 ship. They are actually easier than they were before the changes to difficulty, but are now locked to level 50, instead of level 45.
Now, you take those same players that may have just gone in, and shot everything till it dies, with no actual strategy, and put them in advanced, and they will not be able to do it. Yet, both difficulty levels are open to them.
Another example is The Cure space.
Before DR, and we only had the old normal, and elite, it was easy on normal. Now, again, it is extremely easier than before.
However, there are strategies that can be used on normal, that even the best vets will never try on advanced. But, you go into Advanced because you just beat normal 25 times, and you have no idea what just happened.
Same as going from normal to elite. There are tactics that will work in normal that will never work in elite, unless it is a vet team that is able to push out high DPS.
The only thing that you get from normal, to advanced, to elite is you know where certain gates, ships, transformers, etc are located before going into the next higher difficulty. Aside from that, there are differences in hp pools that will keep one tactic from working, whereas it was not a problem in a lower difficulty.
So, they don't really train you for the next difficulty. It is still trial and error, someone tells them what to do, or they need to find out where to go for the answers.
However, the gap between normal an advanced is not the only problem. The nerfs from high DPS players steamrolling advanced queues are a problem. Not really the players themselves, but the response that is made by the developers making decisions. They try to make the advanced queues even harder, thereby making it harder for new players to level 50+ to learn to play them.
Also, you have players that are D-Bags to ones that may not know what to do in them, therefore encouraging them to close, or ignore chat. Whereas I have found that a lot of times it is someone that didn't know what they were doing wrong, and needed help.
I have helped a lot of players with learning how to do the STFs and PVEs that I actually met in them. Many times, they were the ones that caused the failure. But they were not helped by other players, but were treated like TRIBBLE, and were getting frustrated for hearing how horrible of a person they are from others.
With the game being focused more towards DPS after DR, it has increased the abuse from those that see themselves as perfect.
You can pretty much hand all of these, as you called them carried inexperienced for adv - elite player(s), all of the dps in the world and, they would still fail miserably most often simply because they refuse to strategize! Coordinate with their allies! Actually think beyond kill all that flies!
Elite players should have their stfs and the difficulty in advanced could be lowered; 30k dps players shouldn't be in ISA, this is a nonsense. they shoud have elite infected the conduit, elite khitomer vortex etc.
They have a few elites but, not enough yes and, no advanced should not be lowered in difficulty, player(s) need get off their arses and, put some actual real effort into doing them instead!
Advanced can hardly be compared to raiding, it is more like doing instances above basic difficulty (which is generally how MMO improves gear before doing raids which would be elite).
Eh, missions provide sufficient gear to take on Advanced, anyway.
need get off their arses and, put some actual real effort into doing them instead!
this is the current mentality of elite players stuck in advanced stfs. what do you mean by REAL? spend 8 hours a day in game, just for skill points, dil, ec etc? Spend real money in game for having all the needed lobi for the lobi store console?
each time, when i see a recommended build given by a 30k players, there are always 2 consoles from the lobi store.
in fact "REAL" means for you. damn' dumbass why you don't play at this game like we do; me and my dpsers friends.
i don't understand why we should all follow the same path: same consoles, same weapons (with the same procs), same gears (warp core etc) and same tactics.
OP deserve a bit of respect even if he isn't in your elitist club
this is the current mentality of elite players stuck in advanced stfs. what do you mean by REAL? spend 8 hours a day in game, just for skill points, dil, ec etc? Spend real money in game for having all the needed lobi for the lobi store console?
each time, when i see a recommended build given by a 30k players, there are always 2 consoles from the lobi store.
in fact "REAL" means for you. damn' dumbass why you don't play at this game like we do; me and my dpsers friends.
i don't understand why we should all follow the same path: same consoles, same weapons (with the same procs), same gears (warp core etc) and same tactics.
OP deserve a bit of respect even if he isn't in your elitist club
I get everything thru grinding, I don't spend $ on this game because, well I just don't have it to spend. [So I always give kudos to those who do, as they keep this game alive for myself and, other's so, TY as always btw]
Now, I don't have any of those fancy smancy lobi consoles at all, none, zip, zero, notta.
I in fact don't require them to play at all and, neither does anyone else really.
I don't even have anything other than rep gear, freebie event gear + ships, grinded dilithium - zen store bought ships, exchange bought traits, R&D traits, exchange bought & earned doffs & boffs at best.
The only recently obtained fleet gear thxn to my own hard work soloing my own fleet and, the fine folks from nop public service, I was able to obtain a fleet core and shield array for 3 of my 5 characters thus far, otherwise I make due with what else I can get easily in the mean time.
I am not a part of any dps channel, I PUG everything, I solo my own fleet, my dps is nothing great 8k-20k on average depending on which toon I use and, yet I still do what needs be done thru experience.
And, what I lack in experience, I make up for by learning quickly thru observation and, even ask the experienced player(s) for quick advise at the start.
When I PUG, I fulfill my part anywhere and everywhere, yet I still depend on my allies to do the same, as my lowly dps isn't sufficient enough to carry maybe more than 1 person at best in most cases.
Yet, I find most PUG groups not willing to do the same.
They most often don't bother to learn, don't bother with advise, don't bother to communicate ANYTHING, don't bother to upgrade anything, don't bother to read the mission specifics, don't bother to put in hardly any effort, don't bother to research anything, etc.
The list can go on for a long time and, this doesn't even hit upon those potential trolls & leechers, who would sit and ruin EVERYONE's gaming experience but their own.
Heck, for the longest time I even used freebie ships and mirror vessels for a very long time.
So, call me elitist if you want but, truth be told I am pretyyyyyyyyyy far from being just that!
this is the current mentality of elite players stuck in advanced stfs. what do you mean by REAL? spend 8 hours a day in game, just for skill points, dil, ec etc? Spend real money in game for having all the needed lobi for the lobi store console?
each time, when i see a recommended build given by a 30k players, there are always 2 consoles from the lobi store.
That's because it's the optimal/ideal build.
We'd also recommend Epic [CrtD]x4 arrays, but nobody actually expects you to grind your arrays to that level. I certainly don't have a full load of those.
Personally, when I make recommendations I start with the optimal/ideal builds, then more attainable alternatives. The amount of alternatives I'm willing to suggest depends on how much effort I'm willing to put into a post at that time.
In normal, it can be steamrolled by almost all fresh level 50 players in MK X gear, and with a free level 40 ship. They are actually easier than they were before the changes to difficulty, but are now locked to level 50, instead of level 45.
Now, you take those same players that may have just gone in, and shot everything till it dies, with no actual strategy, and put them in advanced, and they will not be able to do it. Yet, both difficulty levels are open to them.
But that doesn't point to why folks going from Normal to Advanced would suddenly find themselves failing, eh?
Is there an additional Optional from Normal that becomes a Fail condition in Advanced?
Cause, the way I would take what you've said there is that Normal is too easy - not that Advanced is too hard...so that the jump between Normal to Advanced is inordinate. There's no sense of challenge to the Normal leading to one feeling ready for an additional challenge at some point and thus moving to the Advanced. It reads as if the difficulty of Normal needs to be increased to provide something there for players to measure themselves against before heading to Advanced, eh?
I haven't run Khitomer since DR, so I honestly couldn't say and really don't remember there being much of a difference back with KSE since it was pretty much as you described for Normal there.
Before DR, and we only had the old normal, and elite, it was easy on normal. Now, again, it is extremely easier than before.
However, there are strategies that can be used on normal, that even the best vets will never try on advanced. But, you go into Advanced because you just beat normal 25 times, and you have no idea what just happened.
Same as going from normal to elite. There are tactics that will work in normal that will never work in elite, unless it is a vet team that is able to push out high DPS.
Again, well, you even said it there - " it was easy on normal. Now, again, it is extremely easier than before." - and it would appear that's creating too much of a gap between it and Advanced there.
Even with those certain strats that folks might go for - are those just because of the extreme ease...so they'd be tough for that jump to Advanced, where if Normal offered a smidgen of a challenge so those strats weren't viable for the average player they might play with strats that would better suit them when they moved on to Advanced?
The only thing that you get from normal, to advanced, to elite is you know where certain gates, ships, transformers, etc are located before going into the next higher difficulty. Aside from that, there are differences in hp pools that will keep one tactic from working, whereas it was not a problem in a lower difficulty.
So, they don't really train you for the next difficulty. It is still trial and error, someone tells them what to do, or they need to find out where to go for the answers.
With some of that, is it something that Cryptic should do some sort of out of the queue cutscene talking about the queue at various difficulties? There has been some negative feedback given on "informative cutscenes" actually during the queues - folks that have seen it a hundred times really aren't all that interested in seeing it again (heh, some folks don't want to see it the second time). But if that stuff was available outside of the queue itself, providing that kind of information for the player looking to hit up Normal, Advanced, or Elite - would that be something helpful?
I kind of take it for granted to go look for information - that there's this game, that it likely has forums, that there are folks that probably ran the content already and have some pointers and the like...or even just hitting up Google to see what info is out there. Course, things like STOwiki took a brutal hit with the S9.5/DR stuff and how things were barely being kept up to date...they've just fallen woefully behind. So it could get into somebody hunting down "bad" information and leading to a sour experience, eh?
However, the gap between normal an advanced is not the only problem. The nerfs from high DPS players steamrolling advanced queues are a problem. Not really the players themselves, but the response that is made by the developers making decisions. They try to make the advanced queues even harder, thereby making it harder for new players to level 50+ to learn to play them.
I disagree with that. If they had increased the requirements based on those high DPS players, I'd be completely screwed and unable to do anything. Cryptic didn't go to town with things because of what that small group of higher DPS folks are doing - they did it because even the average folks were just totally slaughtering things in Elite. That's where they went overboard initially with DR and put it just out of reach of their average players. Instead of tweaking it down some, though, they just nerfed stuff into the ground.
And again, why would new players to level 50+ be jumping in Advanced, eh? That gets back to where that gap between Normal and Advanced would appear to be the issue...with the issue being Normal is just way too easy and doesn't prepare the player for what's coming with Advanced and Elite, yeah?
Also, you have players that are D-Bags to ones that may not know what to do in them, therefore encouraging them to close, or ignore chat. Whereas I have found that a lot of times it is someone that didn't know what they were doing wrong, and needed help.
I guess I'm lucky, both since DR and since before DR - where I don't recall seeing anything since DR and only rarely before DR. Hell, I rarely ever see anybody saying anything at all. The vast majority of the time, even my "Cheers, all..." at the end of a run isn't met with any response. Every now and again, once in a blue moon sort of thing, there might be a couple of folks that drop out a gg in reply or even a gg while I'm typing my little thing out. They're more like Silent Task Forces than Special Task Forces.
Still, it's a single server for an international community - so much of the time, outside of the "gg" thing - folks might simply have no clue what the Hell anybody else is talking about anyway, heh.
But no doubt, some folks are likely eliciting /facepalms all over the place as they go off in team. I remember some of the folks from back before DR, where it didn't happen often in the least - but when it did, kind of just wanted to slap them on the back of the head to knock it off...their lil' nerdrage wasn't going to help those folks that might have made a mistake in the future, eh? Yeah, some folks out there...meh.
I have helped a lot of players with learning how to do the STFs and PVEs that I actually met in them. Many times, they were the ones that caused the failure. But they were not helped by other players, but were treated like TRIBBLE, and were getting frustrated for hearing how horrible of a person they are from others.
With the game being focused more towards DPS after DR, it has increased the abuse from those that see themselves as perfect.
Like I said, even though I haven't seen it since DR (I'm not there in every queue every second of the day watching, so obviously my experiences are just my own); but I just really have a difficult time with some of the complaints about the focus moving toward DPS with DR. Oh, no doubt - that would have been a massive complaint to make right there at the launch of DR...but uh, that was the massive complaint made right there and something Cryptic had addressed early on and then some.
* * * * *
So I guess in a roundabout fashion, perhaps if something like the following was done:
1) Create cutscenes that have to be watched before being able to queue for any group content covering the basics of what will be required for that content (along the lines of the grumbled about cutscenes added to some - but outside the queue). Where the Advanced cutscene would mention changes compared to Normal. Where the Elite cutscene would mention changes compared to Advanced. With the cutscenes being something a player could watch again at any time. This sort of thing would provide them with a better idea of what they're getting themselves into without having to hunt down external information that might be out of date.
2) Increase the general difficulty of Normal so there is not such a huge gap between it and Advanced. Something I didn't mention previously, but in increasing that general difficulty - while I'd do that, I'd also remove all fail conditions from Normal. Have the things clearly labeled as Optional (tied to the cutscenes from #1, this would make it easier to point out what Optional has become Mandatory to avoid a Fail condition and what is still Optional). With this, then, players would get a better feel for how their performance was in Normal - getting the multiple Optionals with an element of ease...and thus feeling ready to hit up Advanced.
I know there's all sorts of suggestions folks might have out there, but it seems to come down to a combination of knowledge about what will be expected and having a test of some sort built into each level of difficulty that one could feel out when they're ready for the next level of difficulty.
this is the current mentality of elite players stuck in advanced stfs. what do you mean by REAL? spend 8 hours a day in game, just for skill points, dil, ec etc? Spend real money in game for having all the needed lobi for the lobi store console?
each time, when i see a recommended build given by a 30k players, there are always 2 consoles from the lobi store.
That's because it's the optimal/ideal build.
We'd also recommend Epic [CrtD]x4 arrays, but nobody actually expects you to grind your arrays to that level. I certainly don't have a full load of those.
Personally, when I make recommendations I start with the optimal/ideal builds, then more attainable alternatives. The amount of alternatives I'm willing to suggest depends on how much effort I'm willing to put into a post at that time.
It's kind of a tough one, for me personally. It gets into different groups out there.
From most of the folks that I would consider the DPS folks...when they're dropping out builds or talking about builds, they make it pretty damn clear they're not talking about everyman builds. They're not the builds for Joe Average dorking around, having some fun, and just wanting to make a decent contribution to a run. Like you said, they're "optimal/ideal" builds.
But I've seen folks that come off as pretty new to the game, just trying to get a little more - not feel like a burden - they're just trying to do the Joe Average thing...
...and folks are telling them to go all crazy with the stuff that the DPS folks are using.
The DPS folks aren't telling them that. There's this third party group out there telling them that. And it just reflects poorly on those DPS folks that these other folks are doing that.
There's no consideration from that third group about what the folks are interested in doing, what their level of play is, who they're flying with, etc, etc, etc...
...they're just being shovel fed parroted versions of DPS builds without all the disclaimers that the DPS folks usually attach to the builds.
DPS Folks: "If you're looking to do this..." and then the build advice follows.
Those Folks: Do this!
Yet it comes back on the DPS folks that never would have told them to do that without knowing that the person was trying to do this...meh.
I often look at builds somebody posts looking for some help down at the lower range of things, where folks have them going G14 cookie cutter in reply, and I just wouldn't have advice - I'd have questions. What power levels are you running? How far are you attacking from? What speed do you move at between engagements? How are you handling your buffs/debuffs? What kind of debuffing are folks around you doing? Etc, etc, etc...cause they might be able to get to where they want to get without having to change a thing on their builds or only changing little things. Then if it's a case of them wanting to do "this"...then ship them off to the DPS folks to help them out...heh.
But I'm lazy, don't want to get into arguments with folks (no, really - sure, I argued out the wahzoo in this thread; but I honestly don't go looking for arguments...I prefer discussing mechanics, theorycrafting, and that stuff - arguing generally goes nowhere)...
The other 2 lowest player's, had pretty similar dps #'s and, only their pets out dpsed them.
In fact, the pets had more dps on their own, than almost 2 of the player's combined could dish out!
Needless to say, this is not un-common to run into at all and, why people need up their game or, keep failing.
Unless of course they were intentionally trying to troll the mission but, all 3 were not from the same fleet so, not sure as they could possible be friends out to cause grief or, as usual really bad player's!!!
Let's call our example player's X, Y, and Z.
Player X's total dps=2785
Player Y's total dps=2021
Player Z's total dps=1469
This is with their pets included from the higher 2 player's, X & Y.
The other 2 lowest player's, had pretty similar dps #'s and, only their pets out dpsed them.
In fact, the pets had more dps on their own, than almost 2 of the player's combined could dish out!
Needless to say, this is not un-common to run into at all and, why people need up their game or, keep failing.
Unless of course they were intentionally trying to troll the mission but, all 3 were not from the same fleet so, not sure as they could possible be friends out to cause grief or, as usual really bad player's!!!
Let's call our example player's X, Y, and Z.
Player X's total dps=2785
Player Y's total dps=2021
Player Z's total dps=1469
This is with their pets included from the higher 2 player's, X & Y.
Just by glancing at it I can see one of the problems...
They're using the same exact lay out that Cryptic gives them when they give a new ship, just enhanced a bit with rep gear... so you're mixing beams and cannon for one and spreading out too thin.. .I'm going to assume they're using the disruptor version of the bio-molecular too and not the phaser version...
But again look at the layout in white gear you get a new ship and you'll quickly realize it's rubbish. But a lot of players are going to assume that Cryptic knows something they don't and that they general lay out you're given when you get a new ship is optimal... you just need better gear to make it work.
They do the exact same thing with cannon and DHC's... mixing and matching... and often Cryptic does the exact same thing on the initial white gear lay out... probably had a bio-molecular torp on the back end too taking up a spot that didn't do jack but take up space... because Cryptic told them too...
Actually for an Advanced the gear doesn't look too bad if they mixed and matched it a bit better... added some consoles (which probably they're using the consoles given to them on whatever ship they got plus the consoles they could scrounged from the Undine Rep which don't always synergize).
So yeah... horrible lay out... but it's almost a mirror to the white gear new ship layout that Cryptic gives you...
So it's not that things need to be easier... Cryptic needs to figure out a way to train people better even in this case sub-consciously.
Just by glancing at it I can see one of the problems...
They're using the same exact lay out that Cryptic gives them when they give a new ship, just enhanced a bit with rep gear... so you're mixing beams and cannon for one and spreading out too thin.. .I'm going to assume they're using the disruptor version of the bio-molecular too and not the phaser version...
But again look at the layout in white gear you get a new ship and you'll quickly realize it's rubbish. But a lot of players are going to assume that Cryptic knows something they don't and that they general lay out you're given when you get a new ship is optimal... you just need better gear to make it work.
They do the exact same thing with cannon and DHC's... mixing and matching... and often Cryptic does the exact same thing on the initial white gear lay out... probably had a bio-molecular torp on the back end too taking up a spot that didn't do jack but take up space... because Cryptic told them too...
Actually for an Advanced the gear doesn't look too bad if they mixed and matched it a bit better... added some consoles (which probably they're using the consoles given to them on whatever ship they got plus the consoles they could scrounged from the Undine Rep which don't always synergize).
So yeah... horrible lay out... but it's almost a mirror to the white gear new ship layout that Cryptic gives you...
So it's not that things need to be easier... Cryptic needs to figure out a way to train people better even in this case sub-consciously.
The so called training, is something player(s) should be learning on their own or, asking for advise on, not Cryptic's responsibility.
I mean, what do these people think when they pop into an advanced mission and, take 5mins to kill a probe? That this is normal when they just watched someone else do it in mere secs.? Do these people never wonder how they can do that kind of destruction? Never experiment with other build types, different boff skill layouts, different weapon choices, different power settings, different skill point layouts, read what ANYTHING does, etc.?
I mean heck, you got player(s) running around, that don't even know there is a map for Christ sakes or, even how to bring up their map!
Do not know how to tinker with their game options, do not interact with npc's, etc.
It's like all they know and do, involves wasd, space bar, mouse and, that's about it.
The so called training, is something player(s) should be learning on their own or, asking for advise on, not Cryptic's responsibility.
I mean, what do these people think when they pop into an advanced mission and, take 5mins to kill a probe? That this is normal when they just watched someone else do it in mere secs.? Do these people never wonder how they can do that kind of destruction? Never experiment with other build types, different boff skill layouts, different weapon choices, different power settings, different skill point layouts, read what ANYTHING does, etc.?
But it is Cryptic's responsibility for better tutorials, giving better gear lay outs on new ships, and making normal and advanced synergize better.
That said the rest is the players fault as well, but as you and others have said asking for help, especially on these boards and reddit can be toxic, with all the conflicting, erroneous, and trollish remarks you can get, not to mention when two people are both correct but have different opinions.
I mean heck, you got player(s) running around, that don't even know there is a map for Christ sakes or, even how to bring up their map!
Do not know how to tinker with their game options, do not interact with npc's, etc.
It's like all they know and do, involves wasd, space bar, mouse and, that's about it.
Wasd, the space bar and the mouse? That's called a faw build
But it is Cryptic's responsibility for better tutorials, giving better gear lay outs on new ships, and making normal and advanced synergize better.
Layouts. no. How to use equipment yes.
Problems with layouts is this. On an escort: 4 dbb, 4 dhc, 3 dhc + 1 Torp, 3 dhc + 1 dbb, ect.
These are playstyle issues even with established builds.
How about this? Let the player know at a lower level that they can stack tac consoles and boost damage output. Things like this. Cryptic has done little to teach a player how to use what they have. It is more or less, Plop, "Here you go in your inventory".
So far I think PvP Boot camp did the best job at teach people the basics. I think there should be a PvE Boot Camp.
How about this? Let the player know at a lower level that they can stack tac consoles and boost damage output. Things like this. Cryptic has done little to teach a player how to use what they have. It is more or less, Plop, "Here you go in your inventory".
I think there should be a PvE Boot Camp.
Well, it certainly speaks for itself if you are sent to the tailor and the ship-tailer, but not the BO-Trainer, eh.
As for the Bootcamp, yes, but then they should ask us DPSers, and not some... I dont know how to exactly put it... "very average" players like last time. If I wasnt about to shed tears by seeing what they teach, I would have had a good laugh.
Well, it certainly speaks for itself if you are sent to the tailor and the ship-tailer, but not the BO-Trainer, eh.
As for the Bootcamp, yes, but then they should ask us DPSers, and not some... I dont know how to exactly put it... "very average" players like last time. If I wasnt about to shed tears by seeing what they teach, I would have had a good laugh.
Even at this point, very average player's could probably help improve the worst of the worst, that keep popping into Advanced missions ruining more experienced player(s) victory chances.
But, than again some of these bad player's, I am beginning to believe they are deliberate sabotage trolls, instead of really horrid player's.
I mean, how else can one explain the vast # of them, that keep showing up?
Comments
I know you can get the tokens for Dyson and 8472 Rep at good amounts in their respective adventure zones.
But the APCs at Kobali BZ are a daily thing with a whopping amount of 1, from what I read on the patch notes. Not sure about BNPs at Defera. I haven't been there in more than a year
Not dieing do wonder for comparative DPS when others spend time respawning. :P
Advanced can hardly be compared to raiding, it is more like doing instances above basic difficulty (which is generally how MMO improves gear before doing raids which would be elite).
A test server is supposed to be used to properly test patches before patching anything....
It's one per mission, two missions - so you can get two APCs a day from those missions. 3 days for 6 and one piece, 5 days for 10 and two pieces.
This is like saying, we should lower the standards of 1st place so, that everyone who usually comes in 3rd and lower, should be granted 1st place also!
STF's are designed for pretty much anybody but, those anybody's need actually put in some effort and, actually use common sense.
Otherwise, they might as well let their cat/dog/hamster/etc., play for them.
Praetor of the -RTS- Romulan Tal Shiar fleet!
I've played them before and finally got a Ancient power cell. However, lately it seems that you fight, kill all 15 Borg, and just as it cuts to bringing in the last big ship, it brings up "Thank You" and shows failed the mission in red letters and starts the count down of leaving the map...this has happened over and over and over.
Is it bugged or do I know understand how it's supposed to be played?
I can go in just about any other map and get all the processors, etc. I want but not Ancient Power Cells. Does Omega want us to be able to have their stuff of are they going to discontinue their line of produces since there is no other place or game you can get them in...that I know of.
Thanks for any help on this since I am still fairly new and learning the ropes.
If you are referring to borg disconnected, than you do not kill the 15 borg vessels, you are supposed to save the 15 disconnected borg vessels trying to reach the huge glowing re-assimilation area.
Most often, this fails because people do not make an active attempt to rescue them and, instead just spend the whole mission shooting every thing that flies.
But, there has been and, may still be an issue where not all 15 disconnected vessels, show up in a correct timely fashion and, this can lead to a failure as well.
Praetor of the -RTS- Romulan Tal Shiar fleet!
Overall DPS - Left Trans DPS - Right Trans DPS
Player A) 12142.754 - 20411.34 - 20099.215
Player
Player C) 9805.057 - 9100.508 - 10291.818
Player D) 8592.62 - 16667.377 - 11904.269
Player E) 2104.917 - 1575.5 - 0.0
Now, we can't just add those numbers up to see the Group DPS for each situation - can, and Hell, I've done it in the past; but it's not quite right - it is, but it isn't - kind of.
Something to look at would be the engagement time with the Trans, say Left / Right, eh?
Player A) 53s / 51s
Player
Player C) 67s / 55s
Player D) 53s / 41s
Player E) 16s / 0s
If everybody had attacked around the same time, give or take somebody taking the time to toss out the GW, what would have been the actual DPS of each person sort of thing, eh? Gets into buff/debuff cycling/duration and the like.
The general gist, though, is that in looking at the DPS required to bring down a Trans is going to be single target DPS (maybe working in some breaches from Spheres to help things along) without travel time.
But it gets a bit complicated with that single target thing when one is doing a comparison to the overall, even factoring in the travel time and the rest - because you get into how much of that overall DPS came from multiple target DPS that wouldn't factor in versus that single target. Somebody doing FAW vs. 2, CSV vs. 3, etc...might show nifty DPS during that period of time; but how much of that DPS was actually being done to the target that needs to get popped sort of thing, eh?
Let me grab another example (again, just an example - not meant to be representative - grabbed via the RNG from random.org)...
Player A) 17337.602 - 23615.471 - 23937.428
Player
Player C) 8732.059 - 8711.212 - 13889.229
Player D) 8489.575 - 15353.887 - 16540.072
Player E) 2593.976 - 0.0 - 0.0
And again just looking at the engagement time on the two Trans, with Left / Right...
Player A) 68s / 42s
Player
Player C) 52s / 35s
Player D) 44s / 28s
Player E) 0s / 0s
Where all in all, this kind of leads to the competing goals that exist in ISA:
1) Burn the Transformers to avoid the Fail.
2) Burn everything to get the Optional.
I say that, because say one considers 10s of FAW from somebody firing at two targets vs. a single target. Their DPS is double vs. two and half vs. one; depending on how you look at it. Course, folks reach a certain point and just obliterate everything...but in looking at pugs, eh?
Gets into that looking at which DPS when looking at DPS, right? Cause woodwhity did a pretty nifty post here...
...where imho, the two wouldn't necessarily have to be the same.
A group could have the DPS to burn the Transformers without CC while failing the Optional.
A group could have the DPS that would suggest nailing the Optional but fail on burning a Transformer.
I've commented a few times here and there about fails taking place when the log suggested there was plenty of DPS because folks were "chasing butterflies"...basically the DPS the group had wasn't being focused to burn down either that first or second Transformer.
So would the focus on the discussion in regard to ISA...focus on avoiding the Fail rather than getting the Optional? Can't get the Optional if it Fails, right?
Which also gets into some of the discussion about that "1v1" of a Sphere or a "1v10" with Spheres/Nanites/etc...if somebody's grabbing all sorts of aggro and dying, well - then they're contributing 0 DPS to trying to get that Transformer down or 0 DPS toward getting the Optional.
Which gets into the dangers of copying some of the builds out there - where those builds are being used by certain pilots in certain groups...not necessarily by other pilots in random groups. They used to put that warning on some of the builds (not sure if they still do), but people got their panties bunched up thinking those guys were being egotistical by doing so...nah, it was just a straightforward warning that folks should have paid attention to, imho.
The whole process...could be pretty intimidating for folks that aren't gamers, don't have experience in other MMOs with any dungeondelving with concepts like trash mobs, trashspawn, single target, AoE spam, and the rest...
...and with folks going at it at different levels in the same "level" of content, it can cause all sorts of folks all sorts of issues, eh?
Yeah of course, thats why I said there are underlying assumptions. I am with you on this, but the guy you were arguing with wanted something... more "solid", and so I just tried to make a calculation.
Not to mention 10k dps and 10k dps on the transformer (basically BFAW vs SS) would also lead to totally different results
Heh, I liked that you did that, appreciated it...it's just not something I could do...I was all over the place with my ranges, with amounts that might look lower than anybody would expect...and just wanted to try to explain where I was coming from with that while tying it into some of the problems folks might experience. Lol, folks used to complain I couldn't give a straight answer...and I guess I've still got that going for me - the number of times I answered something with, "Depends..."
exactly. This has been the issue for YEARS.
The thing is before all the changes, only, well, lets call them subpar players ever bothered with Normal. Then when they felt like they could handle it they would move up to advanced.
99% of the time, these were the people who caused the optionals to fail. Simply because they were unaware that the missions were completely different. They more or less learned to play it wrong. And many of us carried bad players for years. And it wasn't really a big deal if you failed optionals. A few marks. Big Deal.
Now you have experienced players who struggle in these. Newer players HAVE to do Normal. And therefore don't have any clue what to do in the other versions.
The other thing is that many of the early STFs are just poorly designed from the get go. Vorn ground for instance was very unforgiving before all the changes.
And if you don't have someone who has run In Stasis before, would anyone actually be able to figure out how that all works. I know years ago I probably ran it 50X before I even knew where the room was with controls. Even before the changes you always had someone who just didn't get WTF B2 meant, (or someone who aggroed the entire room)
I will first use The Vortex space as an example.
In normal, it can be steamrolled by almost all fresh level 50 players in MK X gear, and with a free level 40 ship. They are actually easier than they were before the changes to difficulty, but are now locked to level 50, instead of level 45.
Now, you take those same players that may have just gone in, and shot everything till it dies, with no actual strategy, and put them in advanced, and they will not be able to do it. Yet, both difficulty levels are open to them.
Another example is The Cure space.
Before DR, and we only had the old normal, and elite, it was easy on normal. Now, again, it is extremely easier than before.
However, there are strategies that can be used on normal, that even the best vets will never try on advanced. But, you go into Advanced because you just beat normal 25 times, and you have no idea what just happened.
Same as going from normal to elite. There are tactics that will work in normal that will never work in elite, unless it is a vet team that is able to push out high DPS.
The only thing that you get from normal, to advanced, to elite is you know where certain gates, ships, transformers, etc are located before going into the next higher difficulty. Aside from that, there are differences in hp pools that will keep one tactic from working, whereas it was not a problem in a lower difficulty.
So, they don't really train you for the next difficulty. It is still trial and error, someone tells them what to do, or they need to find out where to go for the answers.
However, the gap between normal an advanced is not the only problem. The nerfs from high DPS players steamrolling advanced queues are a problem. Not really the players themselves, but the response that is made by the developers making decisions. They try to make the advanced queues even harder, thereby making it harder for new players to level 50+ to learn to play them.
Also, you have players that are D-Bags to ones that may not know what to do in them, therefore encouraging them to close, or ignore chat. Whereas I have found that a lot of times it is someone that didn't know what they were doing wrong, and needed help.
I have helped a lot of players with learning how to do the STFs and PVEs that I actually met in them. Many times, they were the ones that caused the failure. But they were not helped by other players, but were treated like TRIBBLE, and were getting frustrated for hearing how horrible of a person they are from others.
With the game being focused more towards DPS after DR, it has increased the abuse from those that see themselves as perfect.
Elite players should have their stfs and the difficulty in advanced could be lowered; 30k dps players shouldn't be in ISA, this is a nonsense. they shoud have elite infected the conduit, elite khitomer vortex etc.
Welcome back to STO.
DR saw a major shift in difficulty and abilities as part of a repositioning of the STF's. Advanced STF's while difficult, are not impossible. They require planning and the understanding that players work together. where before a single player could 'carry' an elite match, the new advanced require that all of the players be active participants.
I average 10-20 successful ISA's across 8 alts every day. I have a method that works. It's not a big secret - it has three simple rules:
1.) Ensure your team knows what they are doing.
2.) Improve your baseline skills in Normals first
3.) Join a chat channel with 'rules' as to how to pug.
This isn't just an issue about dps. It's about player skill, and the willingness to adapt tactics as the mission evolves. As a baseline having at least 10K dps makes these mission doable IF you follow a plan.
Yes, you're going to play with people who can do less than 5K dps when you pug. It's inevitable. Yes, you're going to player with people who will ignore protocol, becasue they 'know better'. That's a given. But if you can get at least 10K dps, then there are channels which you can be assured of a 99.9% success rate because they do follow plans, they do follow protocols, and they adapt if theres an issue.
Theres close to 3000 of use active there. More than 500 on every hour of the day.
You can pretty much hand all of these, as you called them carried inexperienced for adv - elite player(s), all of the dps in the world and, they would still fail miserably most often simply because they refuse to strategize! Coordinate with their allies! Actually think beyond kill all that flies!
They have a few elites but, not enough yes and, no advanced should not be lowered in difficulty, player(s) need get off their arses and, put some actual real effort into doing them instead!
Praetor of the -RTS- Romulan Tal Shiar fleet!
Eh, missions provide sufficient gear to take on Advanced, anyway.
No STFs are necessary to gear up for STFs.
this is the current mentality of elite players stuck in advanced stfs. what do you mean by REAL? spend 8 hours a day in game, just for skill points, dil, ec etc? Spend real money in game for having all the needed lobi for the lobi store console?
each time, when i see a recommended build given by a 30k players, there are always 2 consoles from the lobi store.
in fact "REAL" means for you. damn' dumbass why you don't play at this game like we do; me and my dpsers friends.
i don't understand why we should all follow the same path: same consoles, same weapons (with the same procs), same gears (warp core etc) and same tactics.
OP deserve a bit of respect even if he isn't in your elitist club
I get everything thru grinding, I don't spend $ on this game because, well I just don't have it to spend. [So I always give kudos to those who do, as they keep this game alive for myself and, other's so, TY as always btw]
Now, I don't have any of those fancy smancy lobi consoles at all, none, zip, zero, notta.
I in fact don't require them to play at all and, neither does anyone else really.
I don't even have anything other than rep gear, freebie event gear + ships, grinded dilithium - zen store bought ships, exchange bought traits, R&D traits, exchange bought & earned doffs & boffs at best.
The only recently obtained fleet gear thxn to my own hard work soloing my own fleet and, the fine folks from nop public service, I was able to obtain a fleet core and shield array for 3 of my 5 characters thus far, otherwise I make due with what else I can get easily in the mean time.
I am not a part of any dps channel, I PUG everything, I solo my own fleet, my dps is nothing great 8k-20k on average depending on which toon I use and, yet I still do what needs be done thru experience.
And, what I lack in experience, I make up for by learning quickly thru observation and, even ask the experienced player(s) for quick advise at the start.
When I PUG, I fulfill my part anywhere and everywhere, yet I still depend on my allies to do the same, as my lowly dps isn't sufficient enough to carry maybe more than 1 person at best in most cases.
Yet, I find most PUG groups not willing to do the same.
They most often don't bother to learn, don't bother with advise, don't bother to communicate ANYTHING, don't bother to upgrade anything, don't bother to read the mission specifics, don't bother to put in hardly any effort, don't bother to research anything, etc.
The list can go on for a long time and, this doesn't even hit upon those potential trolls & leechers, who would sit and ruin EVERYONE's gaming experience but their own.
Heck, for the longest time I even used freebie ships and mirror vessels for a very long time.
So, call me elitist if you want but, truth be told I am pretyyyyyyyyyy far from being just that!
Praetor of the -RTS- Romulan Tal Shiar fleet!
That's because it's the optimal/ideal build.
We'd also recommend Epic [CrtD]x4 arrays, but nobody actually expects you to grind your arrays to that level. I certainly don't have a full load of those.
Personally, when I make recommendations I start with the optimal/ideal builds, then more attainable alternatives. The amount of alternatives I'm willing to suggest depends on how much effort I'm willing to put into a post at that time.
But that doesn't point to why folks going from Normal to Advanced would suddenly find themselves failing, eh?
Is there an additional Optional from Normal that becomes a Fail condition in Advanced?
Cause, the way I would take what you've said there is that Normal is too easy - not that Advanced is too hard...so that the jump between Normal to Advanced is inordinate. There's no sense of challenge to the Normal leading to one feeling ready for an additional challenge at some point and thus moving to the Advanced. It reads as if the difficulty of Normal needs to be increased to provide something there for players to measure themselves against before heading to Advanced, eh?
I haven't run Khitomer since DR, so I honestly couldn't say and really don't remember there being much of a difference back with KSE since it was pretty much as you described for Normal there.
Again, well, you even said it there - " it was easy on normal. Now, again, it is extremely easier than before." - and it would appear that's creating too much of a gap between it and Advanced there.
Even with those certain strats that folks might go for - are those just because of the extreme ease...so they'd be tough for that jump to Advanced, where if Normal offered a smidgen of a challenge so those strats weren't viable for the average player they might play with strats that would better suit them when they moved on to Advanced?
With some of that, is it something that Cryptic should do some sort of out of the queue cutscene talking about the queue at various difficulties? There has been some negative feedback given on "informative cutscenes" actually during the queues - folks that have seen it a hundred times really aren't all that interested in seeing it again (heh, some folks don't want to see it the second time). But if that stuff was available outside of the queue itself, providing that kind of information for the player looking to hit up Normal, Advanced, or Elite - would that be something helpful?
I kind of take it for granted to go look for information - that there's this game, that it likely has forums, that there are folks that probably ran the content already and have some pointers and the like...or even just hitting up Google to see what info is out there. Course, things like STOwiki took a brutal hit with the S9.5/DR stuff and how things were barely being kept up to date...they've just fallen woefully behind. So it could get into somebody hunting down "bad" information and leading to a sour experience, eh?
I disagree with that. If they had increased the requirements based on those high DPS players, I'd be completely screwed and unable to do anything. Cryptic didn't go to town with things because of what that small group of higher DPS folks are doing - they did it because even the average folks were just totally slaughtering things in Elite. That's where they went overboard initially with DR and put it just out of reach of their average players. Instead of tweaking it down some, though, they just nerfed stuff into the ground.
And again, why would new players to level 50+ be jumping in Advanced, eh? That gets back to where that gap between Normal and Advanced would appear to be the issue...with the issue being Normal is just way too easy and doesn't prepare the player for what's coming with Advanced and Elite, yeah?
I guess I'm lucky, both since DR and since before DR - where I don't recall seeing anything since DR and only rarely before DR. Hell, I rarely ever see anybody saying anything at all. The vast majority of the time, even my "Cheers, all..." at the end of a run isn't met with any response. Every now and again, once in a blue moon sort of thing, there might be a couple of folks that drop out a gg in reply or even a gg while I'm typing my little thing out. They're more like Silent Task Forces than Special Task Forces.
Still, it's a single server for an international community - so much of the time, outside of the "gg" thing - folks might simply have no clue what the Hell anybody else is talking about anyway, heh.
But no doubt, some folks are likely eliciting /facepalms all over the place as they go off in team. I remember some of the folks from back before DR, where it didn't happen often in the least - but when it did, kind of just wanted to slap them on the back of the head to knock it off...their lil' nerdrage wasn't going to help those folks that might have made a mistake in the future, eh? Yeah, some folks out there...meh.
Like I said, even though I haven't seen it since DR (I'm not there in every queue every second of the day watching, so obviously my experiences are just my own); but I just really have a difficult time with some of the complaints about the focus moving toward DPS with DR. Oh, no doubt - that would have been a massive complaint to make right there at the launch of DR...but uh, that was the massive complaint made right there and something Cryptic had addressed early on and then some.
* * * * *
So I guess in a roundabout fashion, perhaps if something like the following was done:
1) Create cutscenes that have to be watched before being able to queue for any group content covering the basics of what will be required for that content (along the lines of the grumbled about cutscenes added to some - but outside the queue). Where the Advanced cutscene would mention changes compared to Normal. Where the Elite cutscene would mention changes compared to Advanced. With the cutscenes being something a player could watch again at any time. This sort of thing would provide them with a better idea of what they're getting themselves into without having to hunt down external information that might be out of date.
2) Increase the general difficulty of Normal so there is not such a huge gap between it and Advanced. Something I didn't mention previously, but in increasing that general difficulty - while I'd do that, I'd also remove all fail conditions from Normal. Have the things clearly labeled as Optional (tied to the cutscenes from #1, this would make it easier to point out what Optional has become Mandatory to avoid a Fail condition and what is still Optional). With this, then, players would get a better feel for how their performance was in Normal - getting the multiple Optionals with an element of ease...and thus feeling ready to hit up Advanced.
I know there's all sorts of suggestions folks might have out there, but it seems to come down to a combination of knowledge about what will be expected and having a test of some sort built into each level of difficulty that one could feel out when they're ready for the next level of difficulty.
It's kind of a tough one, for me personally. It gets into different groups out there.
From most of the folks that I would consider the DPS folks...when they're dropping out builds or talking about builds, they make it pretty damn clear they're not talking about everyman builds. They're not the builds for Joe Average dorking around, having some fun, and just wanting to make a decent contribution to a run. Like you said, they're "optimal/ideal" builds.
But I've seen folks that come off as pretty new to the game, just trying to get a little more - not feel like a burden - they're just trying to do the Joe Average thing...
...and folks are telling them to go all crazy with the stuff that the DPS folks are using.
The DPS folks aren't telling them that. There's this third party group out there telling them that. And it just reflects poorly on those DPS folks that these other folks are doing that.
There's no consideration from that third group about what the folks are interested in doing, what their level of play is, who they're flying with, etc, etc, etc...
...they're just being shovel fed parroted versions of DPS builds without all the disclaimers that the DPS folks usually attach to the builds.
DPS Folks: "If you're looking to do this..." and then the build advice follows.
Those Folks: Do this!
Yet it comes back on the DPS folks that never would have told them to do that without knowing that the person was trying to do this...meh.
I often look at builds somebody posts looking for some help down at the lower range of things, where folks have them going G14 cookie cutter in reply, and I just wouldn't have advice - I'd have questions. What power levels are you running? How far are you attacking from? What speed do you move at between engagements? How are you handling your buffs/debuffs? What kind of debuffing are folks around you doing? Etc, etc, etc...cause they might be able to get to where they want to get without having to change a thing on their builds or only changing little things. Then if it's a case of them wanting to do "this"...then ship them off to the DPS folks to help them out...heh.
But I'm lazy, don't want to get into arguments with folks (no, really - sure, I argued out the wahzoo in this thread; but I honestly don't go looking for arguments...I prefer discussing mechanics, theorycrafting, and that stuff - arguing generally goes nowhere)...
KASA:38mins.
lowest 3 people combined dps=6k
lowest 3 people combined deaths=16
lowest 3 people couldn't stop probes=fail
Example of 1 player's dps by each item, against a single enemy!
bio-molecular cannon=661 dps
bio-molecular cannon rapid fire=236 dps
bio-molecular cannon scatter volley=187 dps
bio-molecular DHC=266 dps
bio-molecular DHC rapid fire=325 dps
bio-molecular DHC scatter volley=187 dps
bio-molecular incubation=481 dps
bio-molecular torpedo salvo=729 dps
dual disruptor beam banks=681 dps
dual disruptor beam banks overload=208 dps
enhanced bio-molecular torpedo=1482 dps
high yield=483 dps
spread=467 dps
heavy bio-molecular turret=543 dps
rapid fire 3=441 dps
scatter volley=379 dps
turret barrage=397 dps
The other 2 lowest player's, had pretty similar dps #'s and, only their pets out dpsed them.
In fact, the pets had more dps on their own, than almost 2 of the player's combined could dish out!
Needless to say, this is not un-common to run into at all and, why people need up their game or, keep failing.
Unless of course they were intentionally trying to troll the mission but, all 3 were not from the same fleet so, not sure as they could possible be friends out to cause grief or, as usual really bad player's!!!
Let's call our example player's X, Y, and Z.
Player X's total dps=2785
Player Y's total dps=2021
Player Z's total dps=1469
This is with their pets included from the higher 2 player's, X & Y.
Praetor of the -RTS- Romulan Tal Shiar fleet!
Just by glancing at it I can see one of the problems...
They're using the same exact lay out that Cryptic gives them when they give a new ship, just enhanced a bit with rep gear... so you're mixing beams and cannon for one and spreading out too thin.. .I'm going to assume they're using the disruptor version of the bio-molecular too and not the phaser version...
But again look at the layout in white gear you get a new ship and you'll quickly realize it's rubbish. But a lot of players are going to assume that Cryptic knows something they don't and that they general lay out you're given when you get a new ship is optimal... you just need better gear to make it work.
They do the exact same thing with cannon and DHC's... mixing and matching... and often Cryptic does the exact same thing on the initial white gear lay out... probably had a bio-molecular torp on the back end too taking up a spot that didn't do jack but take up space... because Cryptic told them too...
Actually for an Advanced the gear doesn't look too bad if they mixed and matched it a bit better... added some consoles (which probably they're using the consoles given to them on whatever ship they got plus the consoles they could scrounged from the Undine Rep which don't always synergize).
So yeah... horrible lay out... but it's almost a mirror to the white gear new ship layout that Cryptic gives you...
So it's not that things need to be easier... Cryptic needs to figure out a way to train people better even in this case sub-consciously.
The so called training, is something player(s) should be learning on their own or, asking for advise on, not Cryptic's responsibility.
I mean, what do these people think when they pop into an advanced mission and, take 5mins to kill a probe? That this is normal when they just watched someone else do it in mere secs.? Do these people never wonder how they can do that kind of destruction? Never experiment with other build types, different boff skill layouts, different weapon choices, different power settings, different skill point layouts, read what ANYTHING does, etc.?
I mean heck, you got player(s) running around, that don't even know there is a map for Christ sakes or, even how to bring up their map!
Do not know how to tinker with their game options, do not interact with npc's, etc.
It's like all they know and do, involves wasd, space bar, mouse and, that's about it.
Praetor of the -RTS- Romulan Tal Shiar fleet!
But it is Cryptic's responsibility for better tutorials, giving better gear lay outs on new ships, and making normal and advanced synergize better.
That said the rest is the players fault as well, but as you and others have said asking for help, especially on these boards and reddit can be toxic, with all the conflicting, erroneous, and trollish remarks you can get, not to mention when two people are both correct but have different opinions.
Wasd, the space bar and the mouse? That's called a faw build
Layouts. no. How to use equipment yes.
Problems with layouts is this. On an escort: 4 dbb, 4 dhc, 3 dhc + 1 Torp, 3 dhc + 1 dbb, ect.
These are playstyle issues even with established builds.
How about this? Let the player know at a lower level that they can stack tac consoles and boost damage output. Things like this. Cryptic has done little to teach a player how to use what they have. It is more or less, Plop, "Here you go in your inventory".
So far I think PvP Boot camp did the best job at teach people the basics. I think there should be a PvE Boot Camp.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j9ocZfZAHJk&list=PLMuD-YI-u3TnphAERG7O1R4oeMivCnrTB
Pretty much everything you need to know
Well, it certainly speaks for itself if you are sent to the tailor and the ship-tailer, but not the BO-Trainer, eh.
As for the Bootcamp, yes, but then they should ask us DPSers, and not some... I dont know how to exactly put it... "very average" players like last time. If I wasnt about to shed tears by seeing what they teach, I would have had a good laugh.
Even at this point, very average player's could probably help improve the worst of the worst, that keep popping into Advanced missions ruining more experienced player(s) victory chances.
But, than again some of these bad player's, I am beginning to believe they are deliberate sabotage trolls, instead of really horrid player's.
I mean, how else can one explain the vast # of them, that keep showing up?
Praetor of the -RTS- Romulan Tal Shiar fleet!