There has been a lot of confusion expressed about some of the recent updates made specifically to PvE queues. Weve been monitoring your posts and would like to respond to the requests made by many of you for more information about why these changes (and those that came before) are being made.
Our recent updates have focused on PvE queues because we have the most data on them and because they are one of the only sources for reputation marks. As a result, they are a more closed system. The intent of these updates is to have all PvE queues reward at similar rates that take into account their individual makeups including (but not limited to) time investment, risk of failure, and number of players required. As the PvE queues exist right now there are outliers queues that reward a lot more for less time and less effort than other queues (optimal choices) and queues that reward a lot less for more time and more effort than other queues (sub-optimal choices). In fixing these discrepancies we are trying to remove the feeling of making a bad choice as a player for playing what you want to play instead of feeling forced to play something based on how much it rewards you for playing it.
We understand the sentiment expressed that there are a lot of places outside of PvE queues that either feel like they are rewarding too much for too little effort or rewarding too little for too much effort. These rewards are typically of Skill Points, Expertise, or Dilithium, all of which touch many more parts of the game and therefore need extra due diligence before any changes are made. That being said, these changes are being discussed and planned and while the details are still being hammered out, we are willing to commit to the following updates taking place in the next couple of months:
Increase the Skill Point and Expertise rewards in PvE queues.
Reward more Dilithium at lower levels and throughout the game by adding Dilithium to mission rewards.
Increase all rewards for sector patrols that are taking significantly longer than their counterparts so that they all have similar rewards per play time.
Add Skill Point and Expertise rewards to all Adventure and Battle Zones.
Add ways to earn Elite Reputation Marks (i.e. Borg Neural Processors, Voth Cybernetic Implants, etc.) from single-player content.
We thank you for your continuing patience as we get these updates through the development process and out to the players.
Now "THIS" is what I was hoping to see, information on what's going on. This really helps ease my conscience. I was not bashing the "rewards nerfs" as some call them, but rather expressing concern about timers and the rate of mission failure jumping to near 100%.
Let me be clear in that I am all for ways to earn fleet marks, rep marks and elite rep marks, and especially dilithium from single player content. I'd like to see these be automatic rewards, rather than "choice" rewards, where you gotta pick what you want. Over time, that'll help players build up their stuff to be able to start getting higher end gear once they reach level 50+ when the rep system unlocks. I believe these additions will be good for players, especially those who are already at endgame and have issues earning dilithium or rep marks due to being challenged in terms of their gear.
May I make a suggestion. Since many people are in fleets, make fleet marks and dilithium be automatic rewards for ALL missions, and rep marks available as optional rewards for all missions and automatic for their respective arcs. Let me see if I can give you an idea of what I mean.
Automatic mission rewards for ALL missions include 500+ energy credits, 10-60 fleet marks, and 480-1,440 dilithium, (depending on mission length and difficulty setting) ALL missions have a 50 reputation marks choice box with an embedded 5 elite reputation marks choice box as an optional reward along with the gear choices. The embedded elite reputation box is tied to the choice of the reputation marks chosen, ie Omega marks chosen = Borg Neural Processors, 8472 marks chosen = Isomorphic Injections, Dyson marks chosen = Voth Cybernetics, Delta marks = Ancient Power Cells, etc.
Romulan Mystery missions give you like 10-30 Romulan Marks, along with that daily bonus thing in effect, as well as the Romulan tutorial, automatically.
Borg story content gives you 10-30 Omega marks + 1-2 Borg Neural Processors per mission, including in the Federation tutorial automatically.
Solonae missions earn 10-30 Dyson marks + 1-2 Voth cybernetic things in addition to the Voth Battlezone.
Undine missions earn 10-30 8472 marks + 1-2 Isomorphic Injections in addition to the Undine Battlezone
Delta Quadrant missions would award 10-30 Delta marks + 1-2 Ancient Power Cells
Boost queue rewards to highlight the additional challenges that these missions provide.
These are some ideas I have. The fleet mark and dilithium automatic rewards is an idea to help those who are in less active fleets, as well as help players in crafting and equipment upgrades later on.
The choice boxes for the rep marks will help with the reputation system later on, and folks can jump right into it and be leveling away. The daily bonus of 55 rep marks would still remain in effect, and help players to be able to get improved gear much more easily.
Wasn't there a big hullabaloo among the devs awhile back about power creep? About the gap between new players at cap and old players at cap being too great and potentially getting greater? About not being able to effectively tailor content for end game because the gap between the haves and have-nots was so great? And that was over a few traits from the Reputation System. As such they revamped the Rep System and limited the number of traits we could slot at any one time. So... tell me, did they fix the power creep? Are people at the "height" of the level cap now closer in line with "newbies" than they were then?
I mean, is it just me or has that gotten exponentially worse? There are now Starship Traits, mostly locked behind $30 purchases (one each). All of these little perks throughout the Specialization system, including more Starship Traits tossed at the end of them. Several new marks of items locked behind dilithium and R&D. New levels of T5U ships and T6 ships with "Mastery" levels to knock out and none of these are available for free through leveling as ships at different levels have been previously. Tonnes of new must have gear locked behind Fleets and Reputation grinds with yet more dilithium and mark requirements.
So... how have things not gotten worse? While endless Reputation trait additions had the potential to be worse over, uh, maybe decades Cryptic have made things much worse now with DR than the old Reputation system had the potential to make things over years and years at the speed of development and Reputation releases.
So now we have Cryptic trying to tailor content to the problems they've created. Instead of solving power creep they made it worse, seemingly intentionally, and put it in the CStore. So now they're trying to make things harder for the people at the far end of the scale all while forgetting how huge and broken they've made that scale. And if this is the case... how much sense does it make to not only make things harder to appease the haves, but to lower rewards to make the climb for the havenots take even longer.
How do they make content for that gap? Obviously based on the fact that they're making things harder while the many PUGs are failing things now shows, well... they can't.
Now, lets say for a moment that Cryptic does follow through with the "buffs" put forward in Mr. Gray's post (which is, based on their history, a large leap of faith on it's own)... is that really likely to help? Is that going to turn the have-nots into the haves any faster so that Cryptic can make reasonable, balanced content that your average PUG can complete? I'm not so sure based on his own post. He flat out tells us that they want to drag everything into the same range, that there should be not better or worse choices. Generally though... that range seems to be lower than where most would want it. It seems to be increasing that "grind" we all love, or in other words lengthening the road the have-nots need to travel to join the haves thanks to the power creep they created... directly after saying they were trying to combat power creep.
Which begs the question; Do Cryptic really have a plan? Do they have any idea what they're doing?
They suggest they want to combat power creep then they introduce power creep unlike any that we've seen before. Then they start making things harder, presumably in response to what they did, and start lessening rewards making getting from A to B somewhere between tedious and impossible, and this in a game where everyone was already fairly resource strapped. How is any of this helping them design content or tailor it to players?
As far as I can see? It isn't. They keep having to tinker with rewards and revisit old content. They're just repeatedly shooting everyone in the foot... players and themselves and they don't even seem to notice. They're making the game worse to play, and harder to design for. They keep doing this. Repeatedly. All while telling us to take it on faith that they know what they're doing, that things will get better, that there is a design plan that... well, isn't entirely addled.
And what is that plan? This "explanation" doesn't explain that. Not really. It doesn't tell us how much we should fail in their eyes. It doesn't tell us how wide the power gap should be. It doesn't tell us how long they think it should take have-nots to become haves. It doesn't tell us anything. What we know is that they're nerfing this content's rewards and making this content harder. What they suggest is they'd like to maybe add rewards elsewhere but not how much, and also that there should be "no bad choices"... as such all things should be equal. So, is them adding rewards elsewhere really a good thing when they're telling us that they're fixing this content by making it worse and they want all choices to be equally viable as, well... this?
So if they start adding Skill Point rewards elsewhere or Dilithium rewards elsewhere do you really think they're going to add them in the amounts anyone wants? In amounts that matter? The goal seems to be to slow down progression,so does anyone really think everything is going to suddenly become Argala? Does anyone believe that everything will payout better when things are taken into account across the board or will rewards simply be wider spread and underwhelming everywhere? Because the changes to the Queues certainly don't seem to be hinting at them making things more appealing or bringing things into check.
So I suppose what I'm saying is... I don't trust Cryptic to make this work. I don't think they know how. I don't think they know what they're doing. I don't think they have a plan, or at least not one that is actually thought out. They even seem to admit this. They flatly say that they need to take "extra due diligence" for the buffs in other areas... meaning they need to look closer and harder because, by their own admission, they don't know. So they don't know where to put those rewards, but if they don't know where to put those rewards how can they know where to put these rewards? How can they know if this content if paying out properly when they don't know what content should be paying out? If what they're saying is true, there should be no bad choices, everything should pay off equally and if that's the case then if they know what this should reward then they should know what everything should reward, and yet they don't. Either that or... they don't know what the actual rewards they're giving us are worth... which may be an even scarier thought. Essentially the alternative is that they don't understand the basic systems and values of the currencies they've created... they've just haphazardly thrown all this together while shrugging and scratching their heads.
Which brings us back to what I sit here wondering...
Does anyone trust Cryptic in this regard and think they should start implementing this plan in phases, starting here with this and if so... why? What has given you this faith because I think you must have seen something I've missed entirely.
This is why I do not believe a single word of Mr. Gray's post. Because they have done nothing but lie to us for at least the past year, if not longer. They think we don't remember. But we do. They think we're stupid. But we're not. They think we're going to swallow their placating BS month after month, year after year. Sorry, but no.
Every single change in the game in the past year has been specifically driven to increase monetization at the expense of an enjoyable gameplay experience. Any Cryptic or PWE employee that tries to tell you otherwise is flat out LYING to you. The only metrics they bother with are the ones that tell them what to do to make more money. Once you understand that, and ignore all the double-speak posts, then everything that's happened since the last anniversary event all makes a lot more sense. It's not about making a game that's fun to play anymore. It's about making a game that's going to bring in as much money as possible, no matter how horrible they have to make the gameplay in order to do it.
And because we are loyal Star Trek fans, and have no other Star Trek MMO to go to, we suck it up and accept it. But at some point even the camel's back breaks. Don't say we didn't warn you Cryptic.
IMO, these are the same excuses we have heard before. If Cryptic were so serious about fixing STFs, they wouldn't continually cherry-pick what parts of the STFs to fix and leave everything else as-is. This is the same run-around that we have heard before when the issue of "fixing" or standardizing" the rewards to time/effort ratios in the past for STFs and other areas of "content".
They were supposed to convert the old Elite queues to the new Advanced ones. That went over well didn't it?
The new Elites were supposed to be for the hard-core people. I don't know if those STFs are working properly or not (I'm only partially hard-core). I'm willing to venture a guess and say no, since I don't really see those STFs being filled anymore than Normal or Advanced is. It might be my time zone and the in-game population is "light" during my game time?
-AoP- Warrior's Blood (KDF Armada) / -AoP- Qu' raD qulbo'Degh / -AoP- ProjectPhoenix Join Date: Tuesday, February 2, 2010
Adding Elite Reputation Marks to SP content?
WTF?!?!
1. this clearly removes every need to play PVEs any longer
play easy stupid SP content to get elite rewards... yes... great idea...
this will clearly push this game even more into a sinpleplayer direction where players dont have to work together anymore
2. this does clearly kill the entire purpose behind the reputation system
3. you really want to add such items to missions that were designed for players which mostly dont even have access to the reputation system at that point?
Yeah... it certainly makes sense if a lvl10 player gets his neural processors to buy MK12 maco shields while this lvl10 player does not even meet the level requirements for this kind of equipment nor do such players have enough reputation marks
You can not be serious to move end game items into the beginners section of the game.
WTF are you guys smoking when you come up with such stupid ideas?
Right, you know what all the playerbase wants because you have inside information to every other player by way of telepathy. Here's an idea for you: Don't try to act as though you speak for anyone aside from yourself.
Also, calling the dev team idiots invalidates your post, since whenever you throw that statement at them, your opinion automatically becomes worthless.
On the point of having the Elite mark currencies put in content with the single player mentality is a good thing. Not everyone is either interested or desiring to do "group STF content" or similar stuff. And you are saying that it "will kill the very purpose of the reputation system"? Your proof of this is where exactly? In case you were unaware, this particular change wouldn't even be available until Level 50... so the part about a Level 10 player getting something is moot, since it won't happen that way.
There has been a lot of confusion expressed about some of the recent updates made specifically to PvE queues.
There is no "confusion" at all. We all know this is a flat-out nerf, and you are just making very long-winded nonsensical attempts to justify it as some sort of rebalancing. You did the same thing before you systematically annihilated skill point rewards and progress across the board.
You mean Dyson and Argala? I did a couple of Argala runs with the weekend bonus - and let me tell you - it didn't feel rewarding, took ages for a single point. I then decided to stop caring about spec points. I didn't do Dyson apart from the story missions, but I will try that one. From what I heard its 8k/h which seems adequat to me.
Nah, Argala actually rewards you for doing something. I was thinking Gerren. A thing to keep in mind about those DQ patrols is that regardless of the length or difficulty setting of them, they reward the same fixed completion amount. It's NPC + Completion for the reward. I've seen some folks mention they were doing Elite Argala, but with it taking them 5 times or more longer to do that; they're really killing their gains. Cause they're getting nowhere near the SP they would have from running a bunch of the Normal instead. With Gerren, even if one got their Argala runs down below 3 minutes to match the SP gain - Gerren would still stand out as over-rewarding to me, outside of rewarding the ability one might have to suffer through the tedium of watching the loading screen to get the reward.
It's one of those...easier rewards better...hrmm, that's...odd...sort of things, imho.
As for Dil, 8k/h? That would be brutal. I was thinking Contraband - Prisoners - Colonists where it is closer to 7-8k/<9 minutes split into AM/PM sessions. And well, during Dil events there is that mix of Contraband - Claims to build up a surplus that's even faster.
It's nothing hidden. It's been discussed out the wahzoo on the forums for years. There are various written guides, video guides, and heh, even debates about the most efficient runs and use of time while doing it. Contraband is 2k Dill, Prisoners vary 350, 500, 1000 - with the 1000 being able to crit for 2500, and Colonists are another 500 Dil. Plus any Dil yo pick up from the assignments where you're grabbing the Contraband, Prisoners, and Colonists - as well as maybe adding in some R&D Material collection along the way.
It takes less than an hour to make 30-40k Dil with ten toons.
Add ways to earn Elite Reputation Marks (i.e. Borg Neural Processors, Voth Cybernetic Implants, etc.) from single-player content.
Have to say, I've been trying to think of a polite way to respond to this part since seeing it; and I can't find one. I just don't get it. Why does the game even have public queues then?
Have to say, I've been trying to think of a polite way to respond to this part since seeing it; and I can't find one. I just don't get it. Why does the game even have public queues then?
Do it as a 20hr project with a marks cost. So getting them from queues is significantly faster.
This is why I do not believe a single word of Mr. Gray's post. Because they have done nothing but lie to us for at least the past year, if not longer. They think we don't remember. But we do. They think we're stupid. But we're not. They think we're going to swallow their placating BS month after month, year after year. Sorry, but no.
Every single change in the game in the past year has been specifically driven to increase monetization at the expense of an enjoyable gameplay experience. Any Cryptic or PWE employee that tries to tell you otherwise is flat out LYING to you. The only metrics they bother with are the ones that tell them what to do to make more money. Once you understand that, and ignore all the double-speak posts, then everything that's happened since the last anniversary event all makes a lot more sense. It's not about making a game that's fun to play anymore. It's about making a game that's going to bring in as much money as possible, no matter how horrible they have to make the gameplay in order to do it.
And because we are loyal Star Trek fans, and have no other Star Trek MMO to go to, we suck it up and accept it. But at some point even the camel's back breaks. Don't say we didn't warn you Cryptic.
Not if you legitly don't see all these actions as such - and I don't mean being ignorant or naive to the goings-on, but literally understanding and still thinking it's otherwise
The fact that some think they're only doing this to make money (which btw every company does in some form) does not make it a fact for everyone.
Was named Trek17.
Been playing STO since Open Beta, and have never regarded anything as worse than 'meh', if only due to personal standards.
Do it as a 20hr project with a marks cost. So getting them from queues is significantly faster.
One could go the Rep project way, but what about...
A DOFF assignment where one sends envoys to plead their case, along with a batch of standard related Rep Marks and a "small" Dilithium incentive.
New crafting school where the recipe is unlocked at T5 in the Rep, allowing one to craft Elite Marks out of the Rep's related standard Marks with a "small" Dilithium cost.
Right, you know what all the playerbase wants because you have inside information to every other player by way of telepathy. Here's an idea for you: Don't try to act as though you speak for anyone aside from yourself.
Also, calling the dev team idiots invalidates your post, since whenever you throw that statement at them, your opinion automatically becomes worthless.
On the point of having the Elite mark currencies put in content with the single player mentality is a good thing. Not everyone is either interested or desiring to do "group STF content" or similar stuff. And you are saying that it "will kill the very purpose of the reputation system"? Your proof of this is where exactly? In case you were unaware, this particular change wouldn't even be available until Level 50... so the part about a Level 10 player getting something is moot, since it won't happen that way.
no, i dont have any telepathic abilities but i can read what other players write
and i am able to think about consequences of such a decision.
but you are free to grind elite marks from story missions and waste 30mins there while the rest of the players is getting the that stuff from the PVEs within 10mins
and while you were complaining about my post I have to question where you take your information from... where in gods name is written that this particular change wouldnt be available before lvl 50? Nowhere anything about that was said.
So your comment is about as speculative as any other here.
Fact is that the reputation system was designed to be based on end game content in first place while story content to at least 85% is below end game. Therefore putting elite rep marks into story content is an idiotic decision.... and yes... i stick with this word... it is idiotic what the developers did in the past months and the result is a totally bugged and imbalanced game
Now, I don't disagree that the devs have broken the time/effort vs. reward ratio and I AM skeptical of whether it will get fixed although this communication at least raises the possibility above 0%.
However, please don't assume everyone's idea of fun is the same. I would rather redo several of the better story missions ("Surface Tension" is one of my favorites, for example)...different ones depending on what I happen to be interested in that day...than repeat one patrol over and over, or go into certain STF's that are just about a guaranteed loss. It's similar to why I would rather play the Foundry than these same repetitive tasks. The chance to get some rewards from other sources is attractive and it ALSO would make going into the less attractive missions and queues once in a while more palatable, because I won't be constantly repeating them, and if I have a failure that gets me locked out of the queues, there are other rewarding things I can be doing with that time. And reward is both marks, dil, EC, and enjoyment.
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I'd have said it, but happyhappyj0yj0y pretty much already did. Really, you could have brought the buffs first. I am eminently reminded of Season 7, when Dilithium was completely removed from STFs and the Foundry daily was completely deleted. We were promised more later, in other places. I do not recall seeing those places materialize since. This is only softened by the fact that Dilithium was re-added to STFs almost immediately... due to player outrage of a type similar to this. And j0y has another point: When is "soon"? I remember in a Priority One segment not long before Season 9.5, Geko himself said that the ability to choose item mods in Crafting was being built into the system, but was not ready for launch, but would be coming "soon." Now, six months later, devs have been quoted saying that the system was NOT designed for it and that it MIGHT happen in the future. We're JUST now getting Secondary Deflectors, and those have been "coming soon" for YEARS. Another fine example is the Galaxy Dreadnought Saucer Separation. A picture of it working internally was released a full two years and a month before it hit the game.
The "nerf now, fix later" model is a terrible one, especially when the playerbase of a game does not trust the developers. And I'll be direct: We don't trust you, Cryptic. Dilithium sink after Dilithium sink after Dilithium sink. Nerfs to XP given by patrols. Nerfs to the rewards of Foundry content (see Season 7). Bad design decisions regarding the level cap increase and how players got there. The massive Crafting grind. The debacle around the Upgrade system. The usually-steady power creep. The lack of transparency. And on top of it all, the fact that you expect us to grind out 7 crafting schools, 6 Reputations and contribute to Fleet Starbase projects, all on 8,000 Dilithium. The fact of the matter is, Cryptic... you've made some pretty terrible design decisions in the past, and have rarely given us a reason to trust you on these matters. We worry every time that the next update will harm us just that little more. You take, and you take, and you take. I love this game, and I love your enthusiasm for the IP... but your decisions are harming players.
If you're going to buff things, buff them now. It won't hurt to let players have a little more income for a little while. Call it an anniversary gift to us, if you like. Give us the buffs now, and nerf gradually later, if you insist on nerfing anything. After all, the biggest complaint 99% of players have is that the game feels like a massive grind. Why not just buff? Give players more? I mean, after Delta Rising, the power gap between fully-geared players and new 50s (when they can access end-game content and gear) is so vast, and takes so long to bridge, that it is effectively impossible for a casual player to cross. And all of it is done to be able to perform well enough to play content... that gives you more stuff for your grind. Where is the fun? What are we grinding for? There's no "challenging, but fun, rewarding boss" at the end. It's just grind for more grind. Every large update adds more. And that has been a development trend for years. Let me break it down:
Season 6 added the Fleet System. Huge grind. Probably the biggest in the game. Season 7 added two reputations as well as the Reputation system itself. Each new Reputation takes over a month to complete and requires several days' worth of Dilithium to get gear from, not to mention the marks you need to grind out. It also added the Fleet Embassy Holding, which is a big Fleet Gind. Legacy of Romulus added the Romulan faction (so you can grind out new level 50 alts to grind out Fleet stuff and Reputations), the Dilithium Mine Fleet Holding (another big Fleet Grind) and another Reputation (now 3). Come Season 8, we get the Dyson Reputation (now 4) and the Fleet Spire (the third Fleet Holding and thus, the fourth huge Fleet Grind). Season 9 gave us the 8472 Counter-Command Reputation (now 5 different Reputations), with its mid-Season partner (season 9.5) giving us the massive time-consuming Crafting grind. Then we get to Delta Rising, adding the Delta Alliance Reputation (now SIX Reputations), Item Upgrading and the massive Dilithium and resource sink it is, the horribly-botched Level Cap increase, Captain Specializations, so we can XP grind past the Level Cap, and Tier 5-U/Tier 6 Ships we can grind to master. And this doesn't even begin to count the Dilithium Exchange. Now we're getting this update (what, Delta point five?) with another new Captain Specialization, Secondary Deflectors added to Crafting, and a revamped BOff training mechanic which.. eh, it's not that bad, but it's still a Dilithium tax, and we have well enough of those. And this is all before the three winter events and two summer events to grind out free ships. And last year's Anniversary ship, which (quite frankly) makes me uneasy about this year's.
Simply put, there is so much grinding, that the players are not grinding. They are being ground up. The playerbase is so much like a fine powder now, that any breeze of other games or new nerfs blows them away from this game. This, from player mattjohnsonva's signature, is the three-month trend since Delta Rising. You are bleeding players slowly, and no one is recommending people join this game. Now you are removing mark rewards from content that few people play and funneling them into content you seem to want them to play. This is to your detriment. We do not need reward removals. We need reward increases. The grind has become unbearable.
I say this because I love this game, and I want it to succeed. I want to see this game become huge. And I want to see people enjoy it. So in that vein, I say this: The trend... must... end. We do not need more grind. We do not want more grind. We want to enjoy this game. Updates like this, that you insist you will remedy later, make people not want to play the game. Give us more rewards. Give us less grinding. Give us fun things to do that are worth doing. Adding Dilithium and "Elite Marks" to single-payer content is a GREAT first step. Increasing XP rewards will be a massive boon. But it all needs to happen sooner, not later. Please, Cryptic... give us a break.
Could not have put it better, all very good points
"The meaning of victory is not to merely defeat your enemy but to destroy him, to completely eradicate him from living memory, to leave no remnant of his endeavours, to crush utterly his achievement and remove from all record his every trace of existence. From that defeat no enemy can ever recover. That is the meaning of victory."
-Lord Commander Solar Macharius
As for Dil, 8k/h? That would be brutal. I was thinking Contraband - Prisoners - Colonists where it is closer to 7-8k/<9 minutes split into AM/PM sessions. And well, during Dil events there is that mix of Contraband - Claims to build up a surplus that's even faster.
Well atleast you didn't publicize the dilthium mine doff missions for future nerf batting or fleet mark opportunities.
It's nothing hidden. It's been discussed out the wahzoo on the forums for years. There are various written guides, video guides, and heh, even debates about the most efficient runs and use of time while doing it.
Oh right I forgot it's been even more publicized then the 17x EXP issue and nothing has been done about it for years. No need to worry!
Now, I don't disagree that the devs have broken the time/effort vs. reward ratio and I AM skeptical of whether it will get fixed although this communication at least raises the possibility above 0%.
However, please don't assume everyone's idea of fun is the same. I would rather redo several of the better story missions ("Surface Tension" is one of my favorites, for example)...different ones depending on what I happen to be interested in that day...than repeat one patrol over and over, or go into certain STF's that are just about a guaranteed loss. It's similar to why I would rather play the Foundry than these same repetitive tasks. The chance to get some rewards from other sources is attractive and it ALSO would make going into the less attractive missions and queues once in a while more palatable, because I won't be constantly repeating them, and if I have a failure that gets me locked out of the queues, there are other rewarding things I can be doing with that time. And reward is both marks, dil, EC, and enjoyment.
certainly a valid point
playing "alternatives" should offer acceptable rewards just like STFs and patrols
i just dont think that specific rewards belong there
e.g. if its easier to get elite rewards from easy story missions then nobody will play PVEs anymore... that would in the end only make the problem with the PVEs worse and in the end we will have an online game where all the players play alone
*snip for brevity*
Which brings us back to what I sit here wondering...
Does anyone trust Cryptic in this regard and think they should start implementing this plan in phases, starting here with this and if so... why? What has given you this faith because I think you must have seen something I've missed entirely.
I certainly don't. And I know a lot of people that play this game that don't. Really, what Cryptic needs to do, is let the players tell them what needs to be fixed. It increasingly seems as if... yea, they play the game, but not in the same manner as we do, and thus don't understand why we have problems.
Shortly after typing up my essay response on page 3, I got a Skype call from a gamer friend. I will call him Zule, for that is what he is called. He read the post (I did try to get him into STO around the time Legacy of Romulus launched, he played for maybe a month), and told me a story. The story was of another game, with issues like this. That game released an expansion. That expansion had an ultimate end boss to fight and kill. But the boss was too difficult. Entire guilds would need to organize and use rotating shifts to fight for four days straight to have a hope of killing this boss. The battle was, to put it lightly, a massive cluster-eff. But the developers of this game did not understand it. It was only when they playtested with non-admin characters that they saw the issue. They had never playtested with non-admin characters, had never played the game as the players did. So they did not see the issue. On Zule's server, that boss was only ever killed three times throughout the course of the game's life, and eventually became arcane knowledge, as fewer people were willing to even try, to the point that most new players didn't even know it existed.
In many regards, this cautionary tale applies to STO. The devs do not seem to be playing the same way the players do. So they do not see the issues the players have. I believe what would benefit STO the most... is if there were a community of Let's Players on youtube at the higher end of the grind. To show devs what the issues actually are. Because the few STO LPs still around... kind of don't.
I can see where story missions should not reward as much in dil or elite marks as a queue (meaning if speed of earning or if you want a bigger challenge is your thing, you should queue), but if you are okay with a slower-but-more-fun progression, story missions can work.
Another idea is to set up the reward structure to encourage teaming on story missions (and not the really clunky way that happens with Argala). OK on your own--but very nice on a team.
Christian Gaming Community Fleets--Faith, Fun, and Fellowship! See the website and PM for more. :-) Proudly F2P.Signature image by gulberat. Avatar image by balsavor.deviantart.com.
In many regards, this cautionary tale applies to STO. The devs do not seem to be playing the same way the players do. So they do not see the issues the players have. I believe what would benefit STO the most... is if there were a community of Let's Players on youtube at the higher end of the grind. To show devs what the issues actually are. Because the few STO LPs still around... kind of don't.
no, i dont have any telepathic abilities but i can read what other players write
and i am able to think about consequences of such a decision.
but you are free to grind elite marks from story missions and waste 30mins there while the rest of the players is getting the that stuff from the PVEs within 10mins
and while you were complaining about my post I have to question where you take your information from... where in gods name is written that this particular change wouldnt be available before lvl 50? Nowhere anything about that was said.
So your comment is about as speculative as any other here.
Fact is that the reputation system was designed to be based on end game content in first place while story content to at least 85% is below end game. Therefore putting elite rep marks into story content is an idiotic decision.... and yes... i stick with this word... it is idiotic what the developers did in the past months and the result is a totally bugged and imbalanced game
Okay, fine. Doesn't mean the devs will change their mind on your say so. Good luck trying to get them to do that.
Though of course, occasionally still doesn't equal full awareness
I know they do use non-dev accounts, but the thing to which I speak is perspective. They're used to dev characters, they're used to playing differently. It's almost analogous to a pro football player going to a high school game. He may be playing with lower-skill players, and he may be trying to play like them, but he is too used to playing in the NFL and has a hard time adjusting. It's not just a non-dev character they need... it's a non-dev perspective. Hence the LPs - so they can see how everyone else does it.
Well atleast you didn't publicize the dilthium mine doff missions for future nerf batting or fleet mark opportunities.
Oh right I forgot it's been even more publicized then the 17x EXP issue and nothing has been done about it for years. No need to worry!
They've already nerfed DOFFing...where do you think the 5s wait thing came from? That doubled the amount time it took to do the runs. Even with it doing three at a time, it's still slowed it down compared to what it was. It was wham, bam...kind of like the vendortrash nerf; the passive income one made from doing those assignments for Contraband/Prisoners was pretty healthy. That's gone.
Hell, there's what used to be just Omega Leonis to Eta Eradani that became Omega Leonis, Eta Eradani, and Tau Dewa or Omega Leonis, Eta Eradani, Pi Canis, and Tau Dewa and even times when that's just not doing it either.
Cryptic has been tweaking it...making it harder. Used to be able to run twice as many toons through it in less than half the time.
Now, I don't disagree that the devs have broken the time/effort vs. reward ratio and I AM skeptical of whether it will get fixed although this communication at least raises the possibility above 0%.
However, please don't assume everyone's idea of fun is the same. I would rather redo several of the better story missions ("Surface Tension" is one of my favorites, for example)...different ones depending on what I happen to be interested in that day...than repeat one patrol over and over, or go into certain STF's that are just about a guaranteed loss. It's similar to why I would rather play the Foundry than these same repetitive tasks. The chance to get some rewards from other sources is attractive and it ALSO would make going into the less attractive missions and queues once in a while more palatable, because I won't be constantly repeating them, and if I have a failure that gets me locked out of the queues, there are other rewarding things I can be doing with that time. And reward is both marks, dil, EC, and enjoyment.
It's a simple logic thing. I don't expect to do my grocery shopping at Toys 'R Us. I don't expect to get my oil changed at Best Buy. I don't expect that sending the house mortgage payment to the car finance company is going to pay the house mortgage. Etc, etc, etc...it's a simple logic thing to me. Why on Earth would doing single player content reward Elite Marks?
Play the game for one month, every day (recommended that you join a fleet or have a group of friends to play with, but make sure you PUG and solo too);
Assemble new reports;
Get the changes going based on the new reports.
Then you will see why the current metrics are pointing you guys in the wrong direction.
I know they do use non-dev accounts, but the thing to which I speak is perspective. They're used to dev characters, they're used to playing differently. It's almost analogous to a pro football player going to a high school game. He may be playing with lower-skill players, and he may be trying to play like them, but he is too used to playing in the NFL and has a hard time adjusting. It's not just a non-dev character they need... it's a non-dev perspective. Hence the LPs - so they can see how everyone else does it.
By the sound of it, the forum might just challenge all the devs to play the game for a week without using their dev accounts at all - work permitting, of course.
Was named Trek17.
Been playing STO since Open Beta, and have never regarded anything as worse than 'meh', if only due to personal standards.
Play the game for one month, every day (recommended that you join a fleet or have a group of friends to play with, but make sure you PUG and solo too);
Assemble new reports;
Get the changes going based on the new reports.
Then you will see why the current metrics are pointing you guys in the wrong direction.
You know, this could actually solve the disconnection between devs and players. My mind is blown.
The upcoming changes sound good, I am especially interested in the ability to earn ancient power cells, neural processors, etc.. outside of queues. This would be a boon for a player like myself that doesn't have time to sit in queues all day hoping for a decent group.
Optional: available to be chosen but not obligatory.
synonyms: voluntary, discretionary, not required, elective, non compulsory, non mandatory
It would seem there is only two possibilities for why these nerfs and changes to increase the chance of a PVE Queue fail:
1. The Developers/Cryptic Management are in a different Instance from the Players who have been providing feedback to why the Queues are dead, so they don't get to see it, or;
2. Do you remember the old Sci-Fi show call 'Sliders', where the heroes kept 'sliding' to different Parallel dimensions where things were slightly to majorly different from our world? Well, it is obvious that the Developers/Cryptic Management are in a Parallel dimension where Delta Rising is the best Expansion ever and the Players just love it. They develop code for those very happy players in that dimension, then a wormhole mysteriously opens up and the code is implemented in this dimension instead.
All kidding aside people have been saying to bring people back to the Queues changer need to be made. Here are some from those and some of my own:
1. See the top of the post and understand the meaning of OPTIONAL. When that is understood remove auto fail for missing OPTIONALS in Advances Queues. And don't try to get around this by changing the name from 'Optional'.
2. Don't up the failure reward for blown queues - get rid of them completely and remove the lockout for the failure, and allow an immediate re-queue.
3. Reduce all re-queue times for successful PVE Queue runs to 30 minutes.
4. Special Event PVE Queues (Shuttle, Mirror Invasion, Elachi, etc.) should have greatly reduced re-queue times like 5 to 10 minutes at most. Do you know why the first Shuttle Mirror Invasion was so much more successful than the 2nd? The first allowed immediate re-queues while the 2nd had a 30 minute timer. No loss in pacing and interest.
5. Stop putting ridiculous timers on stuff that only encourages very-high DPS ships to run them. Come on, really, 4 minutes, 5 minutes, 3 minutes to take care of THREE 'Dreadnought' class ships in Borg Disconnected. It has been done but really, what were you thinking?
6. CCA going to 60 Marks - ok, that is what is was before DR, but maybe successfully making the Optional provides a Bonus. Remember how the STF Elites were before, which is what the Advanced supposedly replaced? No failure for missing true Optionals, but if you made them then a Mark Bonus was awarded. Again, see 1 above.
7. Provide five Ancient Power Cells for the Tier 5 reward for the Delta rep, and likewise provide the five Isomorphic Injections for the 8472 Counter Command Tier 5 reward. And do you know what? Anyone who is Tier 5 should get them added to their Inventory when the change is implemented. You should really want people to buy Reputation items, they cost more to Upgrade than normal stuff, you know more Dilitium, etc.
8. Start thinking about a revamp of the Kobali Ground Battle Zone to also award the APCs, like the Dyson Ground or Udine Space Battle Zones. Maybe one a 20-hour day.
9. Since the revamp of old content to bring it up to current standards is all the rage, do the same with the Defera Ground Zone. Make it like the Dyson, or better yet the Kobali.
All these cumulative nerfs to Mark rewards and removing many of the Mark awards as eligible for the Bonus Weekend Event multiplier, and making it more difficult to get those special Reputation items (APCs, etc.), are you just afraid that the few who have gobs and gobs of that stuff will convert to Dilitium during the Dilitium Bonus Weekend? Well don't forget that there is still a cap of 8k to 9k refining per day so it is still a controlled entry of Refined to the Economy. Maybe people will have to do less grinding but what do you really care? You don't give out much or any for running the content you want people to run in the Delta Quadrant for your Metrics anyway. It is a win-win situation. Players can spend more time in doing the preferred content instead of other things to get the Unrefined.
"Herr Geko! Are we going to do this again?"
'But to be logical is not to be right', and 'nothing' on God's earth could ever 'make it' right!'
Judge Dan Haywood
'As l speak now, the words are forming in my head.
l don't know.
l really don't know what l'm about to say, except l have a feeling about it.
That l must repeat the words that come without my knowledge.'
I've mentioned before in a few podcasts, I play STO every day with a character that has no special "dev hacks." I've worked up tier 5 in all of the reputations, earned starship mastery traits on multiple ships, and I'm still earning specialization points. I have multiple alts as well, across all the different factions and careers. When I decided that I wanted to fly the Vesta, I earned dilithium and posted it on the d-Zen exchange and purchased the ship bundle. And I'm not the only one who plays.
The assumption that "devs don't actually play the game" is decidedly incorrect.
We do play the game -- some of us a little, some of us a lot.
May have been suggested, too lazy to go through 15 pages. How about awarding 1 Elite Mark for Normal queues, 3 Elite Marks for Advanced, and 5 Elite Marks for Elite?
does anyone remember back before delta rising when cryptic promised increased mark rewards from all queues? i vaguely remember all ground elites were going to reward 80+ marks for finishing.
they said they implemented it in one patch note, but nothing changed and any further questions were promptly ignored. several months later, apparently we're getting too many marks.
Now clowns, that's another story. They scare the crap out of me.
We fight them too. Entire armies spilling out of Volkswagens.
We do our best to fight them off, but they keep sending them in.
I've mentioned before in a few podcasts, I play STO every day with a character that has no special "dev hacks." I've worked up tier 5 in all of the reputations, earned starship mastery traits on multiple ships, and I'm still earning specialization points. I have multiple alts as well, across all the different factions and careers. When I decided that I wanted to fly the Vesta, I earned dilithium and posted it on the d-Zen exchange and purchased the ship bundle. And I'm not the only one who plays.
The assumption that "devs don't actually play the game" is decidedly incorrect.
We do play the game -- some of us a little, some of us a lot.
OK...I think I just found another dev who is not showing properly on the dev tracker...we really need to get a full list together of who's missing.
Sorry for my roundabout way of getting at this, but I have to ask you Vesta pilot to Vesta pilot, have you seen just how severely the pet nerf has hit us? And sadly with the costs on upgrades being so incredibly high, there is absolutely nothing I can feasibly do without making the game into second job or paying money I need to see better evidence will go to good use, to change ships. That and I genuinely love the Vesta and it burns to see it crippled this way.
JHeinig, this is a prime example what I mean when I refer to the need to look at all systems and how *everything* affects everything else, before imposing costs or nerfing things. It took both seemingly thoughtless nerfs (an NPC nerf that gutted carrier pilots without a buff or AI improvement to repair what was taken from us) AND exorbitant gear costs AND EC and dilithium nerfs to get here. Any one of these has consequences. Put together, it's a perfect storm.
I think some of the frustration comes about because of what seems to be lack of consideration of the consequences and the combination of consequences from throwing all of these changes at us. Can you see why this is frustrating?
For more discussion of DR as a comprehensive whole and more thoughts on how each thing affects the other and how it all degrades the player experience when brought together (oh...and what's good and what I would love to see salvaged or not buried under the painful parts of the game), please look at my DR review in my sig, and many other great feedback threads in this forum. We DO pull off detailed discussions without flames and personal insults.
Just be careful to start a new thread if you plan to answer the review. You DON'T want Smirk to ban you for a necro.
Christian Gaming Community Fleets--Faith, Fun, and Fellowship! See the website and PM for more. :-) Proudly F2P.Signature image by gulberat. Avatar image by balsavor.deviantart.com.
Comments
Now "THIS" is what I was hoping to see, information on what's going on. This really helps ease my conscience. I was not bashing the "rewards nerfs" as some call them, but rather expressing concern about timers and the rate of mission failure jumping to near 100%.
Let me be clear in that I am all for ways to earn fleet marks, rep marks and elite rep marks, and especially dilithium from single player content. I'd like to see these be automatic rewards, rather than "choice" rewards, where you gotta pick what you want. Over time, that'll help players build up their stuff to be able to start getting higher end gear once they reach level 50+ when the rep system unlocks. I believe these additions will be good for players, especially those who are already at endgame and have issues earning dilithium or rep marks due to being challenged in terms of their gear.
May I make a suggestion. Since many people are in fleets, make fleet marks and dilithium be automatic rewards for ALL missions, and rep marks available as optional rewards for all missions and automatic for their respective arcs. Let me see if I can give you an idea of what I mean.
These are some ideas I have. The fleet mark and dilithium automatic rewards is an idea to help those who are in less active fleets, as well as help players in crafting and equipment upgrades later on.
The choice boxes for the rep marks will help with the reputation system later on, and folks can jump right into it and be leveling away. The daily bonus of 55 rep marks would still remain in effect, and help players to be able to get improved gear much more easily.
This is why I do not believe a single word of Mr. Gray's post. Because they have done nothing but lie to us for at least the past year, if not longer. They think we don't remember. But we do. They think we're stupid. But we're not. They think we're going to swallow their placating BS month after month, year after year. Sorry, but no.
Every single change in the game in the past year has been specifically driven to increase monetization at the expense of an enjoyable gameplay experience. Any Cryptic or PWE employee that tries to tell you otherwise is flat out LYING to you. The only metrics they bother with are the ones that tell them what to do to make more money. Once you understand that, and ignore all the double-speak posts, then everything that's happened since the last anniversary event all makes a lot more sense. It's not about making a game that's fun to play anymore. It's about making a game that's going to bring in as much money as possible, no matter how horrible they have to make the gameplay in order to do it.
And because we are loyal Star Trek fans, and have no other Star Trek MMO to go to, we suck it up and accept it. But at some point even the camel's back breaks. Don't say we didn't warn you Cryptic.
They were supposed to convert the old Elite queues to the new Advanced ones. That went over well didn't it?
The new Elites were supposed to be for the hard-core people. I don't know if those STFs are working properly or not (I'm only partially hard-core). I'm willing to venture a guess and say no, since I don't really see those STFs being filled anymore than Normal or Advanced is. It might be my time zone and the in-game population is "light" during my game time?
Join Date: Tuesday, February 2, 2010
Hey, remember when Cryptic wanted less currencies in the game too?
Seems like an eternity ago. How times change...
Also, calling the dev team idiots invalidates your post, since whenever you throw that statement at them, your opinion automatically becomes worthless.
On the point of having the Elite mark currencies put in content with the single player mentality is a good thing. Not everyone is either interested or desiring to do "group STF content" or similar stuff. And you are saying that it "will kill the very purpose of the reputation system"? Your proof of this is where exactly? In case you were unaware, this particular change wouldn't even be available until Level 50... so the part about a Level 10 player getting something is moot, since it won't happen that way.
There is no "confusion" at all. We all know this is a flat-out nerf, and you are just making very long-winded nonsensical attempts to justify it as some sort of rebalancing. You did the same thing before you systematically annihilated skill point rewards and progress across the board.
Nah, Argala actually rewards you for doing something. I was thinking Gerren. A thing to keep in mind about those DQ patrols is that regardless of the length or difficulty setting of them, they reward the same fixed completion amount. It's NPC + Completion for the reward. I've seen some folks mention they were doing Elite Argala, but with it taking them 5 times or more longer to do that; they're really killing their gains. Cause they're getting nowhere near the SP they would have from running a bunch of the Normal instead. With Gerren, even if one got their Argala runs down below 3 minutes to match the SP gain - Gerren would still stand out as over-rewarding to me, outside of rewarding the ability one might have to suffer through the tedium of watching the loading screen to get the reward.
It's one of those...easier rewards better...hrmm, that's...odd...sort of things, imho.
As for Dil, 8k/h? That would be brutal. I was thinking Contraband - Prisoners - Colonists where it is closer to 7-8k/<9 minutes split into AM/PM sessions. And well, during Dil events there is that mix of Contraband - Claims to build up a surplus that's even faster.
It's nothing hidden. It's been discussed out the wahzoo on the forums for years. There are various written guides, video guides, and heh, even debates about the most efficient runs and use of time while doing it. Contraband is 2k Dill, Prisoners vary 350, 500, 1000 - with the 1000 being able to crit for 2500, and Colonists are another 500 Dil. Plus any Dil yo pick up from the assignments where you're grabbing the Contraband, Prisoners, and Colonists - as well as maybe adding in some R&D Material collection along the way.
It takes less than an hour to make 30-40k Dil with ten toons.
Have to say, I've been trying to think of a polite way to respond to this part since seeing it; and I can't find one. I just don't get it. Why does the game even have public queues then?
Do it as a 20hr project with a marks cost. So getting them from queues is significantly faster.
The fact that some think they're only doing this to make money (which btw every company does in some form) does not make it a fact for everyone.
Been playing STO since Open Beta, and have never regarded anything as worse than 'meh', if only due to personal standards.
One could go the Rep project way, but what about...
A DOFF assignment where one sends envoys to plead their case, along with a batch of standard related Rep Marks and a "small" Dilithium incentive.
New crafting school where the recipe is unlocked at T5 in the Rep, allowing one to craft Elite Marks out of the Rep's related standard Marks with a "small" Dilithium cost.
no, i dont have any telepathic abilities but i can read what other players write
and i am able to think about consequences of such a decision.
but you are free to grind elite marks from story missions and waste 30mins there while the rest of the players is getting the that stuff from the PVEs within 10mins
and while you were complaining about my post I have to question where you take your information from... where in gods name is written that this particular change wouldnt be available before lvl 50? Nowhere anything about that was said.
So your comment is about as speculative as any other here.
Fact is that the reputation system was designed to be based on end game content in first place while story content to at least 85% is below end game. Therefore putting elite rep marks into story content is an idiotic decision.... and yes... i stick with this word... it is idiotic what the developers did in the past months and the result is a totally bugged and imbalanced game
However, please don't assume everyone's idea of fun is the same. I would rather redo several of the better story missions ("Surface Tension" is one of my favorites, for example)...different ones depending on what I happen to be interested in that day...than repeat one patrol over and over, or go into certain STF's that are just about a guaranteed loss. It's similar to why I would rather play the Foundry than these same repetitive tasks. The chance to get some rewards from other sources is attractive and it ALSO would make going into the less attractive missions and queues once in a while more palatable, because I won't be constantly repeating them, and if I have a failure that gets me locked out of the queues, there are other rewarding things I can be doing with that time. And reward is both marks, dil, EC, and enjoyment.
Christian Gaming Community Fleets--Faith, Fun, and Fellowship! See the website and PM for more. :-)
Proudly F2P. Signature image by gulberat. Avatar image by balsavor.deviantart.com.
Could not have put it better, all very good points
-Lord Commander Solar Macharius
Well atleast you didn't publicize the dilthium mine doff missions for future nerf batting or fleet mark opportunities.
Oh right I forgot it's been even more publicized then the 17x EXP issue and nothing has been done about it for years. No need to worry!
certainly a valid point
playing "alternatives" should offer acceptable rewards just like STFs and patrols
i just dont think that specific rewards belong there
e.g. if its easier to get elite rewards from easy story missions then nobody will play PVEs anymore... that would in the end only make the problem with the PVEs worse and in the end we will have an online game where all the players play alone
I certainly don't. And I know a lot of people that play this game that don't. Really, what Cryptic needs to do, is let the players tell them what needs to be fixed. It increasingly seems as if... yea, they play the game, but not in the same manner as we do, and thus don't understand why we have problems.
Shortly after typing up my essay response on page 3, I got a Skype call from a gamer friend. I will call him Zule, for that is what he is called. He read the post (I did try to get him into STO around the time Legacy of Romulus launched, he played for maybe a month), and told me a story. The story was of another game, with issues like this. That game released an expansion. That expansion had an ultimate end boss to fight and kill. But the boss was too difficult. Entire guilds would need to organize and use rotating shifts to fight for four days straight to have a hope of killing this boss. The battle was, to put it lightly, a massive cluster-eff. But the developers of this game did not understand it. It was only when they playtested with non-admin characters that they saw the issue. They had never playtested with non-admin characters, had never played the game as the players did. So they did not see the issue. On Zule's server, that boss was only ever killed three times throughout the course of the game's life, and eventually became arcane knowledge, as fewer people were willing to even try, to the point that most new players didn't even know it existed.
In many regards, this cautionary tale applies to STO. The devs do not seem to be playing the same way the players do. So they do not see the issues the players have. I believe what would benefit STO the most... is if there were a community of Let's Players on youtube at the higher end of the grind. To show devs what the issues actually are. Because the few STO LPs still around... kind of don't.
Another idea is to set up the reward structure to encourage teaming on story missions (and not the really clunky way that happens with Argala). OK on your own--but very nice on a team.
Christian Gaming Community Fleets--Faith, Fun, and Fellowship! See the website and PM for more. :-)
Proudly F2P. Signature image by gulberat. Avatar image by balsavor.deviantart.com.
Though of course, occasionally still doesn't equal full awareness
Been playing STO since Open Beta, and have never regarded anything as worse than 'meh', if only due to personal standards.
I know they do use non-dev accounts, but the thing to which I speak is perspective. They're used to dev characters, they're used to playing differently. It's almost analogous to a pro football player going to a high school game. He may be playing with lower-skill players, and he may be trying to play like them, but he is too used to playing in the NFL and has a hard time adjusting. It's not just a non-dev character they need... it's a non-dev perspective. Hence the LPs - so they can see how everyone else does it.
They've already nerfed DOFFing...where do you think the 5s wait thing came from? That doubled the amount time it took to do the runs. Even with it doing three at a time, it's still slowed it down compared to what it was. It was wham, bam...kind of like the vendortrash nerf; the passive income one made from doing those assignments for Contraband/Prisoners was pretty healthy. That's gone.
Hell, there's what used to be just Omega Leonis to Eta Eradani that became Omega Leonis, Eta Eradani, and Tau Dewa or Omega Leonis, Eta Eradani, Pi Canis, and Tau Dewa and even times when that's just not doing it either.
Cryptic has been tweaking it...making it harder. Used to be able to run twice as many toons through it in less than half the time.
It's a simple logic thing. I don't expect to do my grocery shopping at Toys 'R Us. I don't expect to get my oil changed at Best Buy. I don't expect that sending the house mortgage payment to the car finance company is going to pay the house mortgage. Etc, etc, etc...it's a simple logic thing to me. Why on Earth would doing single player content reward Elite Marks?
Then you will see why the current metrics are pointing you guys in the wrong direction.
STO Screenshot Archive
Been playing STO since Open Beta, and have never regarded anything as worse than 'meh', if only due to personal standards.
You know, this could actually solve the disconnection between devs and players. My mind is blown.
The upcoming changes sound good, I am especially interested in the ability to earn ancient power cells, neural processors, etc.. outside of queues. This would be a boon for a player like myself that doesn't have time to sit in queues all day hoping for a decent group.
synonyms: voluntary, discretionary, not required, elective, non compulsory, non mandatory
It would seem there is only two possibilities for why these nerfs and changes to increase the chance of a PVE Queue fail:
1. The Developers/Cryptic Management are in a different Instance from the Players who have been providing feedback to why the Queues are dead, so they don't get to see it, or;
2. Do you remember the old Sci-Fi show call 'Sliders', where the heroes kept 'sliding' to different Parallel dimensions where things were slightly to majorly different from our world? Well, it is obvious that the Developers/Cryptic Management are in a Parallel dimension where Delta Rising is the best Expansion ever and the Players just love it. They develop code for those very happy players in that dimension, then a wormhole mysteriously opens up and the code is implemented in this dimension instead.
All kidding aside people have been saying to bring people back to the Queues changer need to be made. Here are some from those and some of my own:
1. See the top of the post and understand the meaning of OPTIONAL. When that is understood remove auto fail for missing OPTIONALS in Advances Queues. And don't try to get around this by changing the name from 'Optional'.
2. Don't up the failure reward for blown queues - get rid of them completely and remove the lockout for the failure, and allow an immediate re-queue.
3. Reduce all re-queue times for successful PVE Queue runs to 30 minutes.
4. Special Event PVE Queues (Shuttle, Mirror Invasion, Elachi, etc.) should have greatly reduced re-queue times like 5 to 10 minutes at most. Do you know why the first Shuttle Mirror Invasion was so much more successful than the 2nd? The first allowed immediate re-queues while the 2nd had a 30 minute timer. No loss in pacing and interest.
5. Stop putting ridiculous timers on stuff that only encourages very-high DPS ships to run them. Come on, really, 4 minutes, 5 minutes, 3 minutes to take care of THREE 'Dreadnought' class ships in Borg Disconnected. It has been done but really, what were you thinking?
6. CCA going to 60 Marks - ok, that is what is was before DR, but maybe successfully making the Optional provides a Bonus. Remember how the STF Elites were before, which is what the Advanced supposedly replaced? No failure for missing true Optionals, but if you made them then a Mark Bonus was awarded. Again, see 1 above.
7. Provide five Ancient Power Cells for the Tier 5 reward for the Delta rep, and likewise provide the five Isomorphic Injections for the 8472 Counter Command Tier 5 reward. And do you know what? Anyone who is Tier 5 should get them added to their Inventory when the change is implemented. You should really want people to buy Reputation items, they cost more to Upgrade than normal stuff, you know more Dilitium, etc.
8. Start thinking about a revamp of the Kobali Ground Battle Zone to also award the APCs, like the Dyson Ground or Udine Space Battle Zones. Maybe one a 20-hour day.
9. Since the revamp of old content to bring it up to current standards is all the rage, do the same with the Defera Ground Zone. Make it like the Dyson, or better yet the Kobali.
All these cumulative nerfs to Mark rewards and removing many of the Mark awards as eligible for the Bonus Weekend Event multiplier, and making it more difficult to get those special Reputation items (APCs, etc.), are you just afraid that the few who have gobs and gobs of that stuff will convert to Dilitium during the Dilitium Bonus Weekend? Well don't forget that there is still a cap of 8k to 9k refining per day so it is still a controlled entry of Refined to the Economy. Maybe people will have to do less grinding but what do you really care? You don't give out much or any for running the content you want people to run in the Delta Quadrant for your Metrics anyway. It is a win-win situation. Players can spend more time in doing the preferred content instead of other things to get the Unrefined.
"Herr Geko! Are we going to do this again?"
l don't know.
l really don't know what l'm about to say, except l have a feeling about it.
That l must repeat the words that come without my knowledge.'
The assumption that "devs don't actually play the game" is decidedly incorrect.
We do play the game -- some of us a little, some of us a lot.
Centurion maximus92
12th Legion, Romulan Republic
12th Fleet
=\/= ================================ =\/=
they said they implemented it in one patch note, but nothing changed and any further questions were promptly ignored. several months later, apparently we're getting too many marks.
We fight them too. Entire armies spilling out of Volkswagens.
We do our best to fight them off, but they keep sending them in.
OK...I think I just found another dev who is not showing properly on the dev tracker...we really need to get a full list together of who's missing.
Sorry for my roundabout way of getting at this, but I have to ask you Vesta pilot to Vesta pilot, have you seen just how severely the pet nerf has hit us?
JHeinig, this is a prime example what I mean when I refer to the need to look at all systems and how *everything* affects everything else, before imposing costs or nerfing things. It took both seemingly thoughtless nerfs (an NPC nerf that gutted carrier pilots without a buff or AI improvement to repair what was taken from us) AND exorbitant gear costs AND EC and dilithium nerfs to get here. Any one of these has consequences. Put together, it's a perfect storm.
I think some of the frustration comes about because of what seems to be lack of consideration of the consequences and the combination of consequences from throwing all of these changes at us. Can you see why this is frustrating?
For more discussion of DR as a comprehensive whole and more thoughts on how each thing affects the other and how it all degrades the player experience when brought together (oh...and what's good and what I would love to see salvaged or not buried under the painful parts of the game), please look at my DR review in my sig, and many other great feedback threads in this forum. We DO pull off detailed discussions without flames and personal insults.
Just be careful to start a new thread if you plan to answer the review. You DON'T want Smirk to ban you for a necro.
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