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pwgroverclvlnd
Member Posts: 11 Cryptic Developer
There has been a lot of confusion expressed about some of the recent updates made specifically to PvE queues. Weve been monitoring your posts and would like to respond to the requests made by many of you for more information about why these changes (and those that came before) are being made.
Our recent updates have focused on PvE queues because we have the most data on them and because they are one of the only sources for reputation marks. As a result, they are a more closed system. The intent of these updates is to have all PvE queues reward at similar rates that take into account their individual makeups including (but not limited to) time investment, risk of failure, and number of players required. As the PvE queues exist right now there are outliers queues that reward a lot more for less time and less effort than other queues (optimal choices) and queues that reward a lot less for more time and more effort than other queues (sub-optimal choices). In fixing these discrepancies we are trying to remove the feeling of making a bad choice as a player for playing what you want to play instead of feeling forced to play something based on how much it rewards you for playing it.
We understand the sentiment expressed that there are a lot of places outside of PvE queues that either feel like they are rewarding too much for too little effort or rewarding too little for too much effort. These rewards are typically of Skill Points, Expertise, or Dilithium, all of which touch many more parts of the game and therefore need extra due diligence before any changes are made. That being said, these changes are being discussed and planned and while the details are still being hammered out, we are willing to commit to the following updates taking place in the next couple of months:
We thank you for your continuing patience as we get these updates through the development process and out to the players.
Charles Gray
Lead Content Designer
Star Trek Online
Our recent updates have focused on PvE queues because we have the most data on them and because they are one of the only sources for reputation marks. As a result, they are a more closed system. The intent of these updates is to have all PvE queues reward at similar rates that take into account their individual makeups including (but not limited to) time investment, risk of failure, and number of players required. As the PvE queues exist right now there are outliers queues that reward a lot more for less time and less effort than other queues (optimal choices) and queues that reward a lot less for more time and more effort than other queues (sub-optimal choices). In fixing these discrepancies we are trying to remove the feeling of making a bad choice as a player for playing what you want to play instead of feeling forced to play something based on how much it rewards you for playing it.
We understand the sentiment expressed that there are a lot of places outside of PvE queues that either feel like they are rewarding too much for too little effort or rewarding too little for too much effort. These rewards are typically of Skill Points, Expertise, or Dilithium, all of which touch many more parts of the game and therefore need extra due diligence before any changes are made. That being said, these changes are being discussed and planned and while the details are still being hammered out, we are willing to commit to the following updates taking place in the next couple of months:
- Increase the Skill Point and Expertise rewards in PvE queues.
- Reward more Dilithium at lower levels and throughout the game by adding Dilithium to mission rewards.
- Increase all rewards for sector patrols that are taking significantly longer than their counterparts so that they all have similar rewards per play time.
- Add Skill Point and Expertise rewards to all Adventure and Battle Zones.
- Add ways to earn Elite Reputation Marks (i.e. Borg Neural Processors, Voth Cybernetic Implants, etc.) from single-player content.
We thank you for your continuing patience as we get these updates through the development process and out to the players.
Charles Gray
Lead Content Designer
Star Trek Online
Cryptic Studios Team Member
Post edited by pwgroverclvlnd on
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Please have a look through and let us know your feedback here. I will monitor for TOS adherence.
Thanks again everyone!
~CaptainSmirk
This is good. Thank you for communicating this to us. /sinceritymode
— Sabaton, "Great War"
Check out https://unitedfederationofpla.net/s/
The contention over the recent changes is coming from the fact that the queues just don't seem to be paying out enough currently. The ones getting their rewards cut down feel closer to how the missions should be paying out compared to other sources. Pairing it when an increase in difficulty just seems like taking things too far too quick.
My feedback as you are contemplating these changes is to please be sure that there are non-queue sources for all of the special reputation items, such as Borg neural processors. The voth and undine battle zones are great in this sense. But defera, and kobali are not giving their rep-equivalent items.
Um.......480 for normal/960 for advanced. That's one of the biggest things keeping me from playing.
Define "Elite Marks"? Also, what can be done about fleetmarks?
Let us upgrade the Seleya Ceremonial Lirpa and Kri'stak Blade
Let me stop you there, slim. Only confusion is amongst the dev team. I think the consumerbase is pretty unconfused. In fact, what is the opposite of confusion, lucidity? Clarity? Yeah. As a userbase I think people are lucid and clear. Not confused. Please stop putting words and situations into people's mouths and minds. We are not confused. We clearly know these changes are to further tilt the incline on the treadmill, not a bookworm statistical flimflam that you guys are doing behind the scenes to try to help us have better content. That really isn't going to fly.
For starters, NO CONTENT, let me repeat that with emphasis for you yellow people, NO CONTENT is awarding "TOO MUCH" of anything. That isn't a problem you have there guys, so...try again?
We're not confused, I know you guys think we are because you've uploaded these prompts for us to follow that it is literally the greatest DLC to come to a game since Tribunal and Bloodmoon, but it isn't. In fact, I'd say it is very similar to Bethesda's Horse Armor DLC.
Imagine the poor people that bought your 150 dollar Delta Rising pack? I bet they wish that came with a non-caloric silicone based lubricant huh?
Haha, you devs are like Minh Souphenousenphone trying to tell Connie she loves Chane Wassanasong.
"No no no, Chane Wassanasong is your boyfriend!"
Also, dilithium while leveling. Gee, that really helps those of us that have been here for five years and don't want to start a new character thanks to this grind a whole whole bunch. Thanks guys, these changes are so good! "How good are they, Zeke?" you might find yourself asking. Let me put it to you this way, they make Twilight look like Twilight part TWO.
Now, here's the problem (beyond the fact that people believe that payouts aren't what they should be and that you're adjusting the wrong things in the wrong direction)... you bring the nerfs now and promise the buffs in "the next couple of months". That's a problem because, well, you say a lot of nice things are coming and then they never materialize or take a year or more to come to fruition. Like, say, Secondary Deflectors. Remember those? How long were those coming soon for?
So how about instead of thanking us for our patience you show some by delaying the nerfs until they can coincide with the buffs so that people have some material proof that they will in fact materialize since, in case you haven't noticed, your consumer trust and confidence levels aren't at an all time high.
/2cents
I agree with this statement
Let us upgrade the Seleya Ceremonial Lirpa and Kri'stak Blade
The definition is right there:
Basically, they're gonna make BNP, VCI, etc. (those Rep project components usually only available in PVE queues) available via single player means. I would also like to see a way to earn some amount of Fleet Marks via single player options as well (outside of raising Exotic Birds and Epohhs), but I'm quite happy with this so far.
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Some questions that come to mind:
1. Did you separate private matches from PUGs? Not separating the two groups could lead to spurious conclusions. For example, suppose Cure Space Advanced has a high failure rate in PUGs, but a low failure rate in private matches. Bad experiences may lead to fewer PUG matches, so the distribution becomes more heavily weighted toward private matches. The overall success rate would then increase, but the high success rate does not imply low difficulty.
2. Over what period of time did you collect your data? In another thread, virusdancer pointed out that there have been several balance patches since the launch of Delta Rising. If you lumped together data across patches, then your data would not reflect the present state. Other considerations are
(a) For the first few weeks after the launch of Delta Rising, the data would be heavily weighted towards new content.
(b) During the winter event, there is a drop in all activity not related to the winter event.
3. How did you deal with missions that are hardly played at all? Do you have a large enough sample?
Note that low participation has other causes besides high difficulty and low rewards. Sometimes, the required number of players is too high. I think Klingon Scout Force and The Big Dig both fall into this category. Before Delta Rising, I remember seeing the number of players queued hover below the threshold for long periods of time---increasing and decreasing without the mission ever starting. Occasionally, the confirmation window with the "Engage" button would pop up, but it would time out because not enough players had accepted the mission. After Delta Rising, hardly anyone queues for these two missions anymore, even during the dailies. I suspect that many people have decided to stop queuing for them, because they never start.
4. How did you measure player participation? The number of times a mission was played during a fixed period of time is not necessarily the best measure of participation. You should also count the number of distinct players for each mission. Each account should be counted only once, even if the mission was played multiple times on the same account during the time period. Certain missions may be played over and over by a small group of players. Your statistics may say more about that group than the mission itself.
What really needs to be said its us the players that suffer every time you make a bad move.
When you run people off that means less people for us to play with.
We all want a good and challenging game that gives out fair rewards.
Doesn't mean we want less people playing because you decided now to balance your check book.
Leave the rewards alone so not to upset and loose more people.
It's time you take one on the chin Cryptic for game instead of us the players.
Thanks, it wasn't there when I first saw it
Let us upgrade the Seleya Ceremonial Lirpa and Kri'stak Blade
I think what you miss is that
1) some maps aren't necessarily "easier". its just that the same thing happens at the same time in the same spot every time. we don't so much play them as just repeat the same manuvers over and over like a high school drill team day after day. You tweak the dps and hit points but that same sphere will spawn in the same spot and do the exact same thing. its totally ground hogs day.
2) some maps we just don't like. it has nothing to do with rewards. they are just tedious. or there have always been design issues. Some more or less have to be done in a specific way to succeed. So we learn that way which then leads back to 1)
I find it hard to believe that they did. This is probably why ISA does not appear as an "outlier" since it is done in both pug and private, while CSA is done more private.
It might also explain the lack of acknowledgment that BDA is an outlier. I played it maybe 3 or 4 times in private and completed it. But in 50 or so pugs my success is 0.00% Is this the desired success rate? Who here has successfully pugged (really pugged) BDA? If above zero what is your success rate?
"With the first link, the chain is forged. The first speech censured, the first thought forbidden, the first freedom denied, chains us all irrevocably."
I'm going to agree wholeheartedly with this, you said it better than I could probably articulate it at this hour.
Charles, thank you for coming into the forums and braving the fires again. I don't want to be cynical about time frames - so I'm going to remain positive and say that you honestly believe buffs are incoming.
Please don't prove me wrong - we are used to "coming soons" that never show up - but I think something to improve rewards/the queues/etc is needed sooner than later.
Keep communicating though. Even though we get mad, seeing what's coming is better than no reply at all.
First off - thank you for touching base and providing some clarification. For those of us who live and breathe the game, it's easy for many of us to assume the worst in the absence of explanations.
I think the reverse can be true. You know whats going on, and without giving away too much about your long term goals for monetization and functional game changes, your understanding eclipses ours. If in future posts you could use the 2x4 method either in the preamble or the closing, it would go along way to prevent forum fires.
'2x4' method? Grab a 4 ft piece of timber, and make your comment so clear it's as if you're hitting us over the head.
Only YOU can Prevent Forum Fires.
Thanks for following up with us.
My Two Bits,
Admiral Thrax
Seriously, the decision making the past few months has been mind boggling.
I know you're trying to control leveling and keep players from blowing through content and end game, but I really feel like you're punishing them for doing so, and more so, punishing those who didn't just because others did. I've gone from having fun and building alts to giving up how i want to play just to keep up with the Jones'... The Space Jones'... All of the effort that was going to all of my characters pre-DR, is now stuck at just one character because there is so much to grind just to get back to high end, and frankly it's really killing the fun aspect. More so since It seems like DPS is king (officially now) and having generic non-genocide capable builds just puts you at an even bigger disadvantage than it did before DR.
I would greatly appreciate having better rewards for missions across the board, so it eases the feeling of overgrind, as well as making it easier to upgrade all of the things on all of my characters just so i can participate without being treated poorly for not having 20k dps.
Nerf the Grind, not the Fun.
Thank you for replying.
I like the idea of obtaining reputation rewards from single-player content. Whenever the general stf queues lack players, I can see myself relying upon the single-player content. I like that overall logic.
Some of my followup concerns are:
(1) I like to be substantially rewarded for my time and effort. Whenever I walk away with a handful of marks, I find myself reluctant to log into the game. I understand you are working on the reward versus effort issue. Obtaining anything less than fifty marks feels like a waste. How are you going to balance the reward system, so that players will walk away with a sense of fulfillment?
(2) I don't have allot of time to play "Star Trek: Online". Before I took my leave of absence, I found myself playing roughly three nights a week. I am a very casual player. How will the new reward system affect my casual game play? Will I see longer progression periods?
(3) After your first play through of a mission, the episode rewards are drastically reduced. Will the single-player reputation system rewards be reduced after each play through?
(4) Single-player and offline games reward players steadily. Within a good one to two hour period, players can walk away with some very useful gear. Whenever I complete a two hour session, while playing "Star Trek: Online", I don't feel as though I have obtained anything rewarding. I am usually stuck waiting to fill resource requirements and timegates. How will the new reward system compete with less expensive, more rewarding, single-player and offline games?
(5) Endlessly grinding content is not a rewarding experience. Since I like making steady progress, while also being substantially rewarded, I am finding the grinding mechanic to be too much like work. Will the new reward system attempt to reduce the sense of work?
(6) During my first three years on "Star Trek: Online", the anniversary ships were given away for free. Cryptic use to give anniversary ships away, so they can show their overall appreciation. Why did the free anniversary ship get replaced with a grinding ship? Have you thought about going back to the old way?
(7) Progress between level fifty and sixty is insanely slow. Upon reaching level fifty-eight, I ended up walking away from "Star Trek: Online. I needed to take a rest. Will the new reward system also speed up leveling?
Maybe PVE content is overrewarding MARKS, I dunno, but making everything LESS FUN so that things are all equally NOT FUN... yeah okay, in that case a player will feel equally ****ty playing boring elite content that takes an hour to complete... and they're getting less marks for it.
The missions you're nerfing and the specific way you're nerfing them- there's a disconnect. People don't play cure because it's easy. It's actually hard. On advanced or higher, the bird of preys have like a million HP (more than the raiders and the negh vars put together). The Kang already lights up like a piece of flash paper.
But you know why people play it? It's not because it's easy or because they get a lot of marks. They play it because it's fun. The lose condition is simple and it's a fairly straightforward game type. It's fun to play, to pit yourselves against that challenge. It's not super impossible like, say, Viscous Cycle, or god forbid the other Undine STF (with the defense lines) that takes three hours to run.
And you want to make every mission that unfun? Like is that your actual goal here?
I understand balance, but I really think you guys as developers need a wakeup call, because what you're doing might solve a problem insofar as 'players feel they need to choose the fun missions over the missions that aren't fun'- but the solution you SHOULD be taking is to make them ALL FUN. Not to make NONE OF THEM fun.
are you guys going to completely get rid of it?
If so, can we expect this to be a temporary change in order to buff, improve no win? or is it getting removed for a [REDACTED] reason involving [REDACTED] events?
are you only removing Normal and leaving Advanced - Elite?
Thank you in advanced...
Comrademoco
This all sounds good to me. What is important to keep in mind that these changes are implemented in a similar way of putting the horse in front of the cart, or the carrot in front of the stick.
If you are going to nerf Argala (for example), it should be done in such a way as to draw attention away from Argala first before hitting it with the nerf bat.
For example, putting more skill point rewards in more queued content and battlezones before balancing the payout in Argala.
This is where I see a lot of player dissatisfaction. I am sure that your processes work well on paper, but in practice the timing of particular nerfs while other things might have a higher priority will result in players instinctively looking at what there is now rather than the bigger picture over a broader period of time.
Players will ultimately always be short-sighted and see the now instead of a projected future, but for the sake of keeping the peace, it's easier to address the more pressing concerns now in such a way as to make the issues we had before seem like a distant memory. We live in the generation of Instant Gratification. You have buttons in game that let you instantly get what you want at a cost.
There are players on the forums who expect the same thing from a game development process, and while unrealistic, I think rising to the challenge and having better priorities would ultimately make for future nerfs easier to swallow.
And honestly your track record for following up on things after laying the 'foundation' blocks is pretty poor right now in my eyes. The SP change that indirectly reduced rewards from kills by 66% that was never addressed. Over a year for secondary deflectors. Nothing mentioned in relation to the PuG vs Premade issue.
This post truly offers no more real information than the original. Just a bunch of vague promises.
That's pretty much my reaction to it.
Do I think they might improve stuff down the line? Maybe, and that's a big maybe. Do I think it will happen in anything even approaching a reasonable time frame? No. They are really quick to whip out the nerf bat, but very slow to do just about everything else.
I think when faith in Cryptic is at an all time low, they might want to do some good things before they do the nerfs. But then again, Cryptic has always been abysmal at these kinds of things.
Two things:
1. Does this mean the 20-man queues will be in line for significant revamps to a) add in a lot of rewards and b) reduce or eliminate failure conditions? Because I *want* to play Mine Trap, but when it takes 20 people and failure is too easy, there's no incentive whatsoever to even bother to queue for it.
2. Why did you pick....President Grover Cleveland of all people for your user name?
The "nerf now, fix later" model is a terrible one, especially when the playerbase of a game does not trust the developers. And I'll be direct: We don't trust you, Cryptic. Dilithium sink after Dilithium sink after Dilithium sink. Nerfs to XP given by patrols. Nerfs to the rewards of Foundry content (see Season 7). Bad design decisions regarding the level cap increase and how players got there. The massive Crafting grind. The debacle around the Upgrade system. The usually-steady power creep. The lack of transparency. And on top of it all, the fact that you expect us to grind out 7 crafting schools, 6 Reputations and contribute to Fleet Starbase projects, all on 8,000 Dilithium. The fact of the matter is, Cryptic... you've made some pretty terrible design decisions in the past, and have rarely given us a reason to trust you on these matters. We worry every time that the next update will harm us just that little more. You take, and you take, and you take. I love this game, and I love your enthusiasm for the IP... but your decisions are harming players.
If you're going to buff things, buff them now. It won't hurt to let players have a little more income for a little while. Call it an anniversary gift to us, if you like. Give us the buffs now, and nerf gradually later, if you insist on nerfing anything. After all, the biggest complaint 99% of players have is that the game feels like a massive grind. Why not just buff? Give players more? I mean, after Delta Rising, the power gap between fully-geared players and new 50s (when they can access end-game content and gear) is so vast, and takes so long to bridge, that it is effectively impossible for a casual player to cross. And all of it is done to be able to perform well enough to play content... that gives you more stuff for your grind. Where is the fun? What are we grinding for? There's no "challenging, but fun, rewarding boss" at the end. It's just grind for more grind. Every large update adds more. And that has been a development trend for years. Let me break it down:
Season 6 added the Fleet System. Huge grind. Probably the biggest in the game. Season 7 added two reputations as well as the Reputation system itself. Each new Reputation takes over a month to complete and requires several days' worth of Dilithium to get gear from, not to mention the marks you need to grind out. It also added the Fleet Embassy Holding, which is a big Fleet Gind. Legacy of Romulus added the Romulan faction (so you can grind out new level 50 alts to grind out Fleet stuff and Reputations), the Dilithium Mine Fleet Holding (another big Fleet Grind) and another Reputation (now 3). Come Season 8, we get the Dyson Reputation (now 4) and the Fleet Spire (the third Fleet Holding and thus, the fourth huge Fleet Grind). Season 9 gave us the 8472 Counter-Command Reputation (now 5 different Reputations), with its mid-Season partner (season 9.5) giving us the massive time-consuming Crafting grind. Then we get to Delta Rising, adding the Delta Alliance Reputation (now SIX Reputations), Item Upgrading and the massive Dilithium and resource sink it is, the horribly-botched Level Cap increase, Captain Specializations, so we can XP grind past the Level Cap, and Tier 5-U/Tier 6 Ships we can grind to master. And this doesn't even begin to count the Dilithium Exchange. Now we're getting this update (what, Delta point five?) with another new Captain Specialization, Secondary Deflectors added to Crafting, and a revamped BOff training mechanic which.. eh, it's not that bad, but it's still a Dilithium tax, and we have well enough of those. And this is all before the three winter events and two summer events to grind out free ships. And last year's Anniversary ship, which (quite frankly) makes me uneasy about this year's.
Simply put, there is so much grinding, that the players are not grinding. They are being ground up. The playerbase is so much like a fine powder now, that any breeze of other games or new nerfs blows them away from this game. This, from player mattjohnsonva's signature, is the three-month trend since Delta Rising. You are bleeding players slowly, and no one is recommending people join this game. Now you are removing mark rewards from content that few people play and funneling them into content you seem to want them to play. This is to your detriment. We do not need reward removals. We need reward increases. The grind has become unbearable.
I say this because I love this game, and I want it to succeed. I want to see this game become huge. And I want to see people enjoy it. So in that vein, I say this: The trend... must... end. We do not need more grind. We do not want more grind. We want to enjoy this game. Updates like this, that you insist you will remedy later, make people not want to play the game. Give us more rewards. Give us less grinding. Give us fun things to do that are worth doing. Adding Dilithium and "Elite Marks" to single-payer content is a GREAT first step. Increasing XP rewards will be a massive boon. But it all needs to happen sooner, not later. Please, Cryptic... give us a break.
Cryptic is relying on their "metrics" to tell them what direction to go in, and are largely ignoring helpful, thoughtful, well-made and CIVIL feedback, right?
There's another company who did that, and their product ended up an EPIC failure.
The company? Microsoft. The product? Windows 8.
Microsoft ignored their TechNet boards when people said, "That's a HUGE mistake. Please reverse course before you release it." The result is that INDEPENDENT metrics showed that Windows 8 could only *squeak* past 10% usage. It was so bad, that not even Microsoft's own boasting about their sales could reverse the trend. It cost PC makers big time. They had to end up selling Windows 7 PC's again, because hardly anyone would buy Windows 8 PC's (those that did thought they didn't have any other options).
Keep in mind that Windows 8 usage was worse than Vista's usage by the time Windows 7 came out.
I write this as a warning to Cryptic: If you want to put your fingers in your ears and say that you know better than us and act like elitist snobs (calling people stupid OVERTLY is elitist, btw, Geko!), then go right ahead. If you're really dead set on ignoring the forums, bug reports and feedback, you do so at your own financial peril.
For the Record: Even though it's only a beta: Windows 10 is light years better than Windows 8 BECAUSE of user feedback!
That said, I *do* appreciate the explanation, and I intend on holding you to your word of buffs after you start balancing things out (nerf some fleet action rewards to get all fleet actions to reward the same amount now). Thank you.
We'll need to see concrete and sensible action to help change this perception.
As I told Gorngonzolla, what could really help all of you would be to do what he did and thoroughly explain the team thought process behind the decisions made and how our concerns were taken into account...and if they are not, why (and NOT just "we think you earn too much") it would be detrimental to the game not to.
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