I am sorry but really...the minute it is revealed to not be a Faction ship or even a Kobali ship...the majority of you are hating on it without even waiting for a blog to see what it even looks like on the outside?
Why?
Is it because you view the Kobali badly due to them taking the dead of other species?
Don't like pink?
Don't like it is not a Faction-exclusive ship?
I mean really, I would of liked something more too but to quote Kirk when Scotty called the Excelsior a "bucket of bolts"...."A ship is a ship."
So yeah, it's a Kobali ship. Yeah, I get many of you don't really like the Kobali for various reasons.
How about you put up and stay quiet a little longer till we see the OUTSIDE of the dang thing please as well as it's stats? Than if you still don't like it, I will not be against you complaining but until we see it...hold your horses!
As for me...I'm taking my own advice and holding out judgement till I see the exterior.
Let me try and answer that for you from a perspective of a primarily KDF and a long term player, at least in my opinion since I was amongst the first to post "RIP factions in STO" in this thread:
In 2013, which is amongst many considered the best KDF year in STO yet, Cryptic created 2 new ships for our faction.
One was made after the former EP Stahl publically promissed it for 2013 and still had to be after a complete s**tstorm and forum meltdown that followed Rivera's interview stating that they could push it for the next year because of Voth ships, while at the same time releasing the Avenger nobody asked for. You're probably guessing it by now - that ship was the Mogh.
You know what the other ship was? The Anniversary Kamarag. Without it, it would have been just one. One we had to burn the forum down in order to get the promise fulfilled. Do you want to know the number of ships the blue and green factions got that same year in comparison?
Mind you, this was arguably our (KDF) best year so far.
So knowing that now, you'll forgive an odd KDF player's dissapointment in this after he had hoped for seeing something new for his TRIBBLE red-haired stepchild faction of this game, like that T6 BoP or a science ship we've been begging for. At least for an anniversary since it was the tradition to do so and since they don't seem very fond of making KDF ships. It may sound funny, but to some of us the anniversary was the best chance to get that new faction-specific ship for the forseable future given how often new KDF ships happen around here.
Secondly, it's about the principle and the general direction of things. I'll take the same year of 2013 to compare - we had the 3-rd anniversary and all we had to do is enjoy and play a great new mission featuring the VO work of Denise Crosby to get a new faction specific ship. And both were and still are great and admirable ships.
After that the 4-th anniversary came and I have to say, I was positively suprised that they had not only made 3 new ships for each faction, but 3 variations of each. Yeah, their hulls looked like TRIBBLE and plastic toddler's toys (which has now been rectified by allowing faction specific hull materials), but there was one for each faction nevertheless. I remember and still see many Romulan players enjoy and utilize their DSD as it probably is the only worthwile pure-Romulan sci.ship they've got. Out of 2. :rolleyes:
However, the 4-th anniversary had been turned into a grind where you had to play idiotic mini Q games daily for some 20 days in order to get the new ship and furthermore that ship had a set that was obtainable by playing the new mission with Tuvok. Multiple times. Per character. But not only that, these ships even had a second set tied to the mini Q grind - a set which you could not complete without the mini Q grind even though you bought a set of 3 or 9 from the C-Store for cold hard cash. That or 600 Lobi per character for what essentially is suposed to be a "Thank you for supporting STO all these years" ship.
The thing is - it set a precedent. What was "Thank you for supporting us and our game, please enjoy this new ship gift as a token of apreciation" before, had been turned into a pointless grind. Now winter/summer events or similar grinds I understand completely. But this was the anniversary, get it? So don't be suprised if this year the ship is also tied to somekind of a grind yet again.
Following that trail of thought, this Kobali ship sets a precedent for the future as well. Why bother making 3 faction specific ships for anniversaries when we can slap only one alien one? It's the easy way out, the Cryptic trademark for this game. Therefore we can't hope for nice faction specific ships even for anniversaries anymore and as STO history has it - for certain factions those anniversary ships are just about the only new ships they get in a certain year. So yeah, I'm completely dissapointed, just as I was last year when I found out that a nice and friendly milestone had been turned into a grind.
Lastly, I'll be honest and say that I don't fancy the Kobali. Not at all. I don't hate them with passion like some people around here obviously do for their reasons, but I also dislike that we're basically shoehorned into helpoing them, especially regardless of our faction choice. So this ship could have been Kobali, or Vaadwaur or APU....I'd still have the same reaction due to reasons stated above.
I also be honest and say that I don't like cross-faction ships and I believe that they in the context in which are intorduced take away the genuine setting of Star Trek in the game. I understand the people that want and like them though. And I don't hate or hold a grudge against people that enjoy them.....well except ones that try to justify idiotic stuff like the Tholian and Undine ships or whine about Borg cubes.
But this, as already I mentioned, sets a precedent for anniversaries having cross-faction ships. And this is what I dislike, dissapoints me and makes me lose interest in the anniversary. It shouldn't really suprise us though, Cryptic has shown their incompetence to maintain a multi-faction game time and time again, with the mess that is "The bestest expansion evar!!!" being a shning beacon of their intent in terms of the factions in this game that are not Federation, and factions in general.
And no, sorry but I won't "put up and stay quiet" untill I see the ship's design, because seeing it changes nothing for me. It could look like a TRIBBLE or be worthy of drooling over, it makes no difference to people like me. Believe it or not, despite Cryptic's best attempts to chase us away, there are still quite a few of us fools and Star Trek fans that enjoyed playing Star Trek Online, not Generic Starship of the Month Online.
Sorry for the long rant, just my 2 cents on the issue.
While it is true we don't know what the ship looks like yet, what we can be certain of, given this obvious lead to it's lineage, it won't follow any familiar factional themes, to which I can only say, Oh yay, another friggin alien hybrid.
It's too soon to worry if it is going to be just one type of ship or whether they plan national variants like the last anniversary and given their overbearing need to monetize everything I fully expect some kind of improved variants available later in the c-store, Lobi market etc.
It is so disappointing that they could be so focused on DR that everything else in the game now has to be co-opted by such tunnel vision. This is what I've come to expect from these guys, they've made it pretty obvious that they simply dislike designing Star Trek ships and give the impression that creativity somehow translates into continually foisting some generic scifi abortion on the players.
I'm sure there will be droves of players that will fly the ship, but then we could throw anything into the game whether it made sense or not and people would fly it. But then this game isn't really Star Trek anymore so what the hell, let the weirdness roll out, it will be an amusing spectacle of wrongness if nothing else.
If something is not broken, don't fix it, if it is broken, don't leave it broken.
Y'know... I think I've figured out why so many people like the Vaadwaur, and despise the Kobali.
The Vaadwaur were never actually shown doing anything to justify their evil reputation. I mean, sure, they shot a Talaxian. To me, that's a heroic act worthy of praise. If the Kobali ground battlezone had the player run up on some Vaadwaur troops about to lazor-machine-gun a bunch of captive Kobali kneeling in front of the trench that would be their mass grave, or perhaps encounter a lab where the Vaadwaur were performing barbaric medical experiments in an attempt to restore former-Vaadwaur now-Kobali back to their original form, it would do more to portray them as "bad guys." This never happened. Instead, the most morally questionable thing in DR were the actions of the Kobali, with the Vaadwaur appearing almost... justified.
Did you miss the genocide bit? And did you miss the part where they laid waste to the entire motherf---ing quadrant?
Everyone keeps focusing on how "evil" and "reprehensible" the Kobali are for changing corpses into Kobali, but I just don't see it. For one thing, one can't obtain consent from the dead. And remember what that one Kobali said about changing people to Kobali. They view it as the highest honor to the dead person. What if there was a race that saw burial as reprehensible? To them, we would be monsters.
And if you think killing the Talaxians was a "heroic act worthy of praise," or feel that the Vaadwaur were justified in committing genocide, then you are in absolutely NO position to judge the Kobali for an act that was merely morally questionable AT WORST.
Your father was captain of a starship for twelve minutes. He saved 800 lives, including your mother's, and yours.
Did you miss the genocide bit? And did you miss the part where they laid waste to the entire motherf---ing quadrant?
Couple of trope pages you should read: Offstage Villainy and Show, Don't Tell. Don't tell us somebody's a bad guy, demonstrate it through their onscreen actions. All we've actually seen of their actions is that they're waging a war of conquest. That makes them a violent imperialist antagonist, sure, but it doesn't make them genocidal maniacs.
Everyone keeps focusing on how "evil" and "reprehensible" the Kobali are for changing corpses into Kobali, but I just don't see it. For one thing, one can't obtain consent from the dead. And remember what that one Kobali said about changing people to Kobali. They view it as the highest honor to the dead person. What if there was a race that saw burial as reprehensible? To them, we would be monsters.
I'll let one of my fanfics, "Last Rights", answer this one, referencing another trope, Culture Justifies Anything:
Tuvok: I do not disagree on any particular point, Captain. But Kobali culture does consider it a great honor to be specifically selected rather than merely scavenged.
LTJG. K'lak, son of Rokar: Yes, and my species’ dominant culture considers it honorable to attack unarmed passenger liners from cloak.
They may view it as the "highest honor" to the dead person, but as "Ashes to Ashes" showed they'll fight like mad to keep the resulting Kobali with them against their will. That is not something to be admired. The Kobali are no better than the Borg except for the fact that they're not trying to conquer the galaxy.
"Great War! / And I cannot take more! / Great tour! / I keep on marching on / I play the great score / There will be no encore / Great War! / The War to End All Wars"
— Sabaton, "Great War"
Couple of trope pages you should read: Offstage Villainy and Show, Don't Tell. Don't tell us somebody's a bad guy, demonstrate it through their onscreen actions. All we've actually seen of their actions is that they're waging a war of conquest. That makes them a violent imperialist antagonist, sure, but it doesn't make them genocidal maniacs.
I'll let one of my fanfics, "Last Rights", answer this one, referencing another trope, Culture Justifies Anything:
They may view it as the "highest honor" to the dead person, but as "Ashes to Ashes" showed they'll fight like mad to keep the resulting Kobali with them against their will. That is not something to be admired. The Kobali are no better than the Borg except for the fact that they're not trying to conquer the galaxy.
I took the time to read what you wrote Starsword and I have to say, interesting take on the whole thing.
I personally have no problem with what the Kobali are doing to survive beyond the fact they are not giving a choice to the Dead nor the races involved. I can see their point of view but it is not a POV I'd like to be looking at all the same.
In counter though...the Vaaduwar are kinda setting themselves up from the start as the hostile power and while they were responding to what the Kobali did...attempted Genocide is a bit out of proportion to what was done.
The Kobali are trying to survive best they can. Doesn't make it right just like the Vidiians and their method of surviving the Phage. Yes, trying to keep the Dead from their families may seem wrong but how would one react TO a dead family member returning like that? Especially if they've done their grieving? It comes down to a choice that stinks no matter what.
The Vaaduwar on the other hand...some of them are good but the leadership is making very poor choices with their new toys. Also, while they have the right to be angry with the Kobali doing what they did...they do not have the right to wipe out an entire species for the bad choices of a few.
In a sense...the whole situation is a huge mess with no easy answers to who is right or wrong.
In 2013, which is amongst many considered the best KDF year in STO yet, Cryptic created 2 new ships for our faction.....
I agree with shpoks historicizing. And if can vote for faction ships, I vote for faction ships. I would like some t6 ships that will run me less than 9,000 zen to get one for each of my main toons for each faction. Thanks developers. Here's to hoping 2015 is better for the player base than 2014.
Don't tell us somebody's a bad guy, demonstrate it through their onscreen actions. All we've actually seen of their actions is that they're waging a war of conquest. That makes them a violent imperialist antagonist, sure, but it doesn't make them genocidal maniacs.
We have seen the Vaadwaur perform a test of the bio-agent they were going to use. And again, everyone keeps forgetting the massacre of the Talaxians. I think we've seen plenty of the Vaadwaur Supremacy's evil actions. By the way, I'm not a huge Talaxian fan, and I positively hate Neelix's yammering, overenthusiastic guts. But that doesn't mean TRIBBLE. Hell, I would have even been mad if Gaul massacred a bunch of Kazon. Not as mad as I was at the Talaxian massacre, but still. A massacre is unjustifiable, no matter what race it is carried out on or by, and no matter what the reason.
On an unrelated note, why does every post I read always devolve to ****ting on the devs for one reason or another?
Your father was captain of a starship for twelve minutes. He saved 800 lives, including your mother's, and yours.
I am sorry but really...the minute it is revealed to not be a Faction ship or even a Kobali ship...the majority of you are hating on it without even waiting for a blog to see what it even looks like on the outside?
Why?
(Snipped for brevity)
So yeah, it's a Kobali ship. Yeah, I get many of you don't really like the Kobali for various reasons.
(Snipped for brevity)
A race of, ........... well, ........ leftovers, .................. who cannot fight for themselves, have to have our engineers show them how to fix their own equipment, and couldn't figure out that holding someone elses people who are on ice in suspended animation might cause the people who put them there to get a bit upset, just doesn't engender a vote of confidence for becoming premier ship builders the day after the war ends.
Add to it the planned addition of content to the ships mastery that leaves those without T6 Intel ships the only ones with skill points spent in the Intel slots that are now wasted as there's no complimentary reskill on those already Intel slotted points.
STO took the finest ships they had ever built, the Odyssey and the Bortasqu', made them a grind to reach unless you spend cash, and then made them nearly obsolete within months of their premier. Adding an upgrade to a T5U just didn't get it when they brought in the mastery format that carries it's basis on a T6 Intel. Two completely different ships with two completely different roles.
Everyone has room to complain on this one. It's fixable though and that's the part that gets me. No effort to make the fix. Just keep adding to the problem. Stop trying to make the T5U into a T6 in name only. One is an Engineers Cruiser. The other is science oriented.
What good is an Intel Bridge Officer to anything other than a T6? You can't even give Intel Officers trained ground skills to your away team when working with anything other than a T6! What's presented as a Tier leveling up isn't even a lateral movement. It's a betrayal of those who worked so hard to to get the latest and greatest in the T5. The T6 is not a leveling up. It's an additional science ship that was presented as a leveling up when it should have been a T5 science vessel with unique new features.
I am sorry but really...the minute it is revealed to not be a Faction ship or even a Kobali ship...the majority of you are hating on it without even waiting for a blog to see what it even looks like on the outside?
Why?
Is it because you view the Kobali badly due to them taking the dead of other species?
Don't like pink?
Don't like it is not a Faction-exclusive ship?
I mean really, I would of liked something more too but to quote Kirk when Scotty called the Excelsior a "bucket of bolts"...."A ship is a ship."
So yeah, it's a Kobali ship. Yeah, I get many of you don't really like the Kobali for various reasons.
How about you put up and stay quiet a little longer till we see the OUTSIDE of the dang thing please as well as it's stats? Than if you still don't like it, I will not be against you complaining but until we see it...hold your horses!
As for me...I'm taking my own advice and holding out judgement till I see the exterior.
How about we let people voice there opinions if they change there minds when they see the exterior then so be it. I for one won't be grinding for the ship as I would have preferred a fed kdf or rom specific ship but this will be a blessing in disguise rather than do a mission x amount of time I can do it once and get it over with and not to have to play find the Q game over 14 days gives me time to play something else
NO TO ARC
Vice Admiral Volmack ISS Thundermole
Brigadier General Jokag IKS Gorkan
Centurion Kares RRW Tomalak
[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
Let me try and answer that for you from a perspective of a primarily KDF and a long term player, at least in my opinion since I was amongst the first to post "RIP factions in STO" in this thread:
In 2013, which is amongst many considered the best KDF year in STO yet, Cryptic created 2 new ships for our faction.
One was made after the former EP Stahl publically promissed it for 2013 and still had to be after a complete s**tstorm and forum meltdown that followed Rivera's interview stating that they could push it for the next year because of Voth ships, while at the same time releasing the Avenger nobody asked for. You're probably guessing it by now - that ship was the Mogh.
You know what the other ship was? The Anniversary Kamarag. Without it, it would have been just one. One we had to burn the forum down in order to get the promise fulfilled. Do you want to know the number of ships the blue and green factions got that same year in comparison?
Mind you, this was arguably our (KDF) best year so far.
So knowing that now, you'll forgive an odd KDF player's dissapointment in this after he had hoped for seeing something new for his TRIBBLE red-haired stepchild faction of this game, like that T6 BoP or a science ship we've been begging for. At least for an anniversary since it was the tradition to do so and since they don't seem very fond of making KDF ships. It may sound funny, but to some of us the anniversary was the best chance to get that new faction-specific ship for the forseable future given how often new KDF ships happen around here.
Secondly, it's about the principle and the general direction of things. I'll take the same year of 2013 to compare - we had the 3-rd anniversary and all we had to do is enjoy and play a great new mission featuring the VO work of Denise Crosby to get a new faction specific ship. And both were and still are great and admirable ships.
After that the 4-th anniversary came and I have to say, I was positively suprised that they had not only made 3 new ships for each faction, but 3 variations of each. Yeah, their hulls looked like TRIBBLE and plastic toddler's toys (which has now been rectified by allowing faction specific hull materials), but there was one for each faction nevertheless. I remember and still see many Romulan players enjoy and utilize their DSD as it probably is the only worthwile pure-Romulan sci.ship they've got. Out of 2. :rolleyes:
However, the 4-th anniversary had been turned into a grind where you had to play idiotic mini Q games daily for some 20 days in order to get the new ship and furthermore that ship had a set that was obtainable by playing the new mission with Tuvok. Multiple times. Per character. But not only that, these ships even had a second set tied to the mini Q grind - a set which you could not complete without the mini Q grind even though you bought a set of 3 or 9 from the C-Store for cold hard cash. That or 600 Lobi per character for what essentially is suposed to be a "Thank you for supporting STO all these years" ship.
The thing is - it set a precedent. What was "Thank you for supporting us and our game, please enjoy this new ship gift as a token of apreciation" before, had been turned into a pointless grind. Now winter/summer events or similar grinds I understand completely. But this was the anniversary, get it? So don't be suprised if this year the ship is also tied to somekind of a grind yet again.
Following that trail of thought, this Kobali ship sets a precedent for the future as well. Why bother making 3 faction specific ships for anniversaries when we can slap only one alien one? It's the easy way out, the Cryptic trademark for this game. Therefore we can't hope for nice faction specific ships even for anniversaries anymore and as STO history has it - for certain factions those anniversary ships are just about the only new ships they get in a certain year. So yeah, I'm completely dissapointed, just as I was last year when I found out that a nice and friendly milestone had been turned into a grind.
Lastly, I'll be honest and say that I don't fancy the Kobali. Not at all. I don't hate them with passion like some people around here obviously do for their reasons, but I also dislike that we're basically shoehorned into helpoing them, especially regardless of our faction choice. So this ship could have been Kobali, or Vaadwaur or APU....I'd still have the same reaction due to reasons stated above.
I also be honest and say that I don't like cross-faction ships and I believe that they in the context in which are intorduced take away the genuine setting of Star Trek in the game. I understand the people that want and like them though. And I don't hate or hold a grudge against people that enjoy them.....well except ones that try to justify idiotic stuff like the Tholian and Undine ships or whine about Borg cubes.
But this, as already I mentioned, sets a precedent for anniversaries having cross-faction ships. And this is what I dislike, dissapoints me and makes me lose interest in the anniversary. It shouldn't really suprise us though, Cryptic has shown their incompetence to maintain a multi-faction game time and time again, with the mess that is "The bestest expansion evar!!!" being a shning beacon of their intent in terms of the factions in this game that are not Federation, and factions in general.
And no, sorry but I won't "put up and stay quiet" untill I see the ship's design, because seeing it changes nothing for me. It could look like a TRIBBLE or be worthy of drooling over, it makes no difference to people like me. Believe it or not, despite Cryptic's best attempts to chase us away, there are still quite a few of us fools and Star Trek fans that enjoyed playing Star Trek Online, not Generic Starship of the Month Online.
Sorry for the long rant, just my 2 cents on the issue.
my sentiments exactly
NO TO ARC
Vice Admiral Volmack ISS Thundermole
Brigadier General Jokag IKS Gorkan
Centurion Kares RRW Tomalak
[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
I can see it now when the Kobali Hearse is fitted with a Kinetic cutting beam instead of killing the crew and leaving them they are beamed aboard the ship for reanimation.
Everytime I see complaints about the same thing
[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
The Kobali are trying to survive best they can. Doesn't make it right just like the Vidiians and their method of surviving the Phage. Yes, trying to keep the Dead from their families may seem wrong but how would one react TO a dead family member returning like that? Especially if they've done their grieving? It comes down to a choice that stinks no matter what.
I'll tell you how they'd react. Same way the families of the crew of the USS Rapier (from the "Cardassian Struggle" series) probably reacted after them being stuck in the Bajoran wormhole for six gorram years. In "Rapier"'s debriefing Captain Kurland said outright that they'd been declared legally dead. Does that mean the Rapier crew shouldn't be allowed to go home?
We have seen the Vaadwaur perform a test of the bio-agent they were going to use. And again, everyone keeps forgetting the massacre of the Talaxians. I think we've seen plenty of the Vaadwaur Supremacy's evil actions. By the way, I'm not a huge Talaxian fan, and I positively hate Neelix's yammering, overenthusiastic guts. But that doesn't mean TRIBBLE. Hell, I would have even been mad if Gaul massacred a bunch of Kazon. Not as mad as I was at the Talaxian massacre, but still. A massacre is unjustifiable, no matter what race it is carried out on or by, and no matter what the reason.
All of which happened well after the Kobali arc. You know that old saw that you only get one chance to make an impression? The impression players who haven't finished the storyline yet because of the level-gating get is that the Vaads are imperialists at worst, whereas the Kobali come off like the love-child of Jiro Sugihara and the Borg: an entire species of irritatingly upbeat, dishonest ideologues who are committing systematic war crimes.
I'd take the Vaads over the Kobali for the same reason I prefer the Romulans to the Klingons. At least the Romulans are honest with themselves about why they're fighting you: no nebulous, self-serving concepts of "honor"; they're fighting you because it advances their national interests.
"Great War! / And I cannot take more! / Great tour! / I keep on marching on / I play the great score / There will be no encore / Great War! / The War to End All Wars"
— Sabaton, "Great War"
All of which happened well after the Kobali arc. You know that old saw that you only get one chance to make an impression? The impression players who haven't finished the storyline yet because of the level-gating get is that the Vaads are imperialists at worst, whereas the Kobali come off like the love-child of Jiro Sugihara and the Borg: an entire species of irritatingly upbeat, dishonest ideologues who are committing systematic war crimes.
What do you mean "well after the Kobali arc?" That was all during the Kobali arc, and the massacre at Entaba was before. The Kobali are just trying to survive, and you can't compare them to the Viidians, because they do not kill anyone in the process.
Oh, and do you know anything about the Romulans? That mnesaihe or whatever it's called sounds suspiciously like a nebulous, self serving concept of honor to me.
Your father was captain of a starship for twelve minutes. He saved 800 lives, including your mother's, and yours.
What do you mean "well after the Kobali arc?" That was all during the Kobali arc, and the massacre at Entaba was before. The Kobali are just trying to survive, and you can't compare them to the Viidians, because they do not kill anyone in the process.
Actually, the Kobali arc is two missions before "All that Glitters". And the point is, the Kobali do their BS first, ergo the first impression that sticks around is the one of the Kobali as sanctimonious, dishonest war criminals. General Q'Nel says to my Fed Rom, "The Vaadwaur won't stop if they get their people back, you know they won't," and I'm like, "No, I don't. What besides plot is stopping me from lasering the roof off your precious temple and beaming your little concentration camp away?" Random Benzite goes, "We're not here to change the Kobalis' culture" and I go "Well, why not? I'm Romulan! What do I care about your f***ing Prime Directive?"
But no, because plot, you're not consulted despite being by far the seniormost officer, as well as the one with the most combat experience, in the entire theatre.
And yes, I can compare them to the Vidiians. A, the Vidiians use cadaver organs as well as living ones, and B, there's zero evidence the Kobali would have any qualms about using corpses they themselves made.
I should also point out, Gaul committed half the Vaads' war crimes himself and gave personal orders for the rest. Minus Gaul, they're little worse than the Klingons. With the Kobali it's systematic throughout their entire culture.
Oh, and do you know anything about the Romulans? That mnesaihe or whatever it's called sounds suspiciously like a nebulous, self serving concept of honor to me.
Not the last time I checked. It's pretty clearly defined and they also don't constantly bang on about it like the Klingons and use it as an excuse in their war planning. Whereas the Klingons use circular reasoning i.e. "It's honorable to kill random people because I'm a Klingon, and because I'm Klingon it's honorable to kill random people." Also, I'll point out, much as I like it it's not a canon concept and AFAIK never even referenced in-game except for a name-drop in The Path to 2409.
"Great War! / And I cannot take more! / Great tour! / I keep on marching on / I play the great score / There will be no encore / Great War! / The War to End All Wars"
— Sabaton, "Great War"
Having now replayed the mission relevant to the so-called chemical attacks, I'm calling BS. The Kobali ARE using the bodies of Vaad battlefield casualties to reproduce, and that isn't an offensive chemical weapon, it's a countermeasure against being turned into Kobali. That's not a war crime, it's a completely valid tactic for preventing the enemy from replacing its troops. Genocide, my TRIBBLE.
So no, the Kobali don't have a leg to stand on in morality and comparing them to the Vidiians is completely justified.
"Great War! / And I cannot take more! / Great tour! / I keep on marching on / I play the great score / There will be no encore / Great War! / The War to End All Wars"
— Sabaton, "Great War"
Having now replayed the mission relevant to the so-called chemical attacks, I'm calling BS. The Kobali ARE using the bodies of Vaad battlefield casualties to reproduce, and that isn't an offensive chemical weapon, it's a countermeasure against being turned into Kobali. That's not a war crime, it's a completely valid tactic for preventing the enemy from replacing its troops. Genocide, my TRIBBLE.
So no, the Kobali don't have a leg to stand on in morality and comparing them to the Vidiians is completely justified.
I thought I heard two or three different chemicals and pathogens referred to.
1) Anti-Kobali vaccine for Vaadwaur and other species to prevent conversion (cool)
2) Chemical/pathogen to kill all infected organisms, including living Kobali (NOT cool)
There may have been a third one but I am not so sure about that.
Christian Gaming Community Fleets--Faith, Fun, and Fellowship! See the website and PM for more. :-) Proudly F2P.Signature image by gulberat. Avatar image by balsavor.deviantart.com.
Yeah i'm all for stopping the Kobali turning your dead into their people via conversion, with the use of a chemical to stop it, that's ok.
But the Vaadawur were prepared to cross the line and commit genocide to kill all the Kobali, that's a little bit too far for any group of people to get away with.
The war was because the Kobali seriously pissed the Vaadwaur off, desecrating their dead and being unwilling to give up the remaining survivors in the stasis pods.
But to go and wipe out the whole race because of that seems rather excessive regardless of how offended you get by it all.
The Kobali are not exactly innocent as they should have considered how offended any races would be to find them stealing corpses of their loved ones and turning them into living Kobali. But there really is no evidence to suggest they would be some threat to the quadrant, going round starting wars to generate bodies for their needs. They lied to protect what they thought was the jackpot, something they were unwilling to give up despite it risking their entire planet's safety.
The Vaadwaur were beaten down centuries ago because of the other powers in the quadrant felt they were such a threat they had to bombard their homeworld from orbit. I think we can work out fairly easily they were not the nicest of people back then if everyone one else joined up to remove them from existence, they must have been some serious threat.
It's highly likely they would have gone back to their old ways, especially as they are now getting their power via the Iconians, clearly they are not just going to go about saying sorry for their past deeds.
We find the Kobali way of life offense based off our own beliefs and via of life & death, but there is no way they are as bad as a group willing to commit genocide.
Yeah i'm all for stopping the Kobali turning your dead into their people via conversion, with the use of a chemical to stop it, that's ok.
But the Vaadawur were prepared to cross the line and commit genocide to kill all the Kobali, that's a little bit too far for any group of people to get away with.
The war was because the Kobali seriously pissed the Vaadwaur off, desecrating their dead and being unwilling to give up the remaining survivors in the stasis pods.
But to go and wipe out the whole race because of that seems rather excessive regardless of how offended you get by it all.
The Kobali are not exactly innocent as they should have considered how offended any races would be to find them stealing corpses of their loved ones and turning them into living Kobali. But there really is no evidence to suggest they would be some threat to the quadrant, going round starting wars to generate bodies for their needs. They lied to protect what they thought was the jackpot, something they were unwilling to give up despite it risking their entire planet's safety.
The Vaadwaur were beaten down centuries ago because of the other powers in the quadrant felt they were such a threat they had to bombard their homeworld from orbit. I think we can work out fairly easily they were not the nicest of people back then if everyone one else joined up to remove them from existence, they must have been some serious threat.
It's highly likely they would have gone back to their old ways, especially as they are now getting their power via the Iconians, clearly they are not just going to go about saying sorry for their past deeds.
We find the Kobali way of life offense based off our own beliefs and via of life & death, but there is no way they are as bad as a group willing to commit genocide.
Oh, after Entaba I'm perfectly willing to concede that Gaul and his bluegill-infested compatriots were willing to commit genocide. But given Eldex I'm much less sure about the entire Vaadwaur nation. And it's quite possible the Turei bombed them into extinction the first time simply because they don't have the Federation's level of moral hangups and wanted to end the problem permanently.
The Kobali, on the other hand, have zero concept at all that they're doing anything wrong.
"Great War! / And I cannot take more! / Great tour! / I keep on marching on / I play the great score / There will be no encore / Great War! / The War to End All Wars"
— Sabaton, "Great War"
The Kobali, on the other hand, have zero concept at all that they're doing anything wrong.
But that's because it is their whole culture and means of survival. It seems utterly alien and disturbing to us but to a race on the other side of the galaxy it probably is not too weird. They've lived with this way of life for so long they just accept it as what needs to be done.
Some alien races would probably look upon organ and blood transplants in the real world on earth as just as heinous a crime, but we think of them as an every day thing nowadays. I'd imagine the Kobali see their acts as no different.
Plus i'd say they do have some idea of how wrong it is, they aren't killing people to turn into their own, they only use dead bodies they find, so I think they at least realise it's maybe not going to be accepted by everyone else in the quadrant but they are doing their best in a bad situation.
Unlike the Vidians for example who have only really been exposed to the Phage in recent times and have no qualms with murder and organ harvesting from living beings to ensure their survival.
But that's because it is their whole culture and means of survival. It seems utterly alien and disturbing to us but to a race on the other side of the galaxy it probably is not too weird. They've lived with this way of life for so long they just accept it as what needs to be done.
Some alien races would probably look upon organ and blood transplants in the real world on earth as just as heinous a crime, but we think of them as an every day thing nowadays. I'd imagine the Kobali see their acts as no different.
You do know what the difference is between an organ transplant and the Kobali using somebody's corpse, right?
One word: "Consent". The person giving an organ transplant or donating their body to science, or hell, donating blood, has consented in writing to have their body used that way. I should know; I donate blood multiple times per year and I'm a registered bone marrow donor.
The Kobali don't bother to ask anyone; they just take. And if you, horror of horrors, don't like being Kobali, they retrieve you by force and indoctrinate you until you like it.
Plus i'd say they do have some idea of how wrong it is, they aren't killing people to turn into their own, they only use dead bodies they find, so I think they at least realise it's maybe not going to be accepted by everyone else in the quadrant but they are doing their best in a bad situation.
So you consider using Vaadwaur battlefield casualties that they themselves killed to be "finding" a dead body. Glad to know we're on the same page. :rolleyes:
No, the Kobali have no concept that they're doing anything wrong. By their own admission they consider it near-criminal not to revive somebody.
Unlike the Vidians for example who have only really been exposed to the Phage in recent times and have no qualms with murder and organ harvesting from living beings to ensure their survival.
Actually the Vidiians have been fighting the Phage for over 2,000 years (VOY: "Phage"). Yet another point of similarity.
ETA: Let me give you a comparison situation. Indian culture used to call for burning a dead man's widow alive on his funeral pyre, a practice called settee. This is what the British governor of India reputedly said of the practice in 1843:
Be it so. This burning of widows is your custom; prepare the funeral pile. But my nation has also a custom. When men burn women alive we hang them, and confiscate all their property. My carpenters shall therefore erect gibbets on which to hang all concerned when the widow is consumed. Let us all act according to national customs.
Just because it's "their culture" doesn't make it right.
"Great War! / And I cannot take more! / Great tour! / I keep on marching on / I play the great score / There will be no encore / Great War! / The War to End All Wars"
— Sabaton, "Great War"
Unlike with the Borg, you can actually sit down with the Kobali and have a pointed conversation with them about why it is wrong to do what they are doing without consent. It's similar to why I won't even advocate genocide against the Undine--because we have actually seen that the Undine are individuals who CAN be reasoned with, even if the majority refuse.
I am cool with those who wish to inoculate themselves with an anti-conversion vaccine. More reasonable Vaadwaur could even have made a hell of a financial conquest by collecting royalties on its production. (Just imagine the public hysteria they could whip up with their advertising campaign to drive sales...)
However, similar to the "mutant cure" from X-Men, the Kobali should be permitted to compete in the market of ideas. Not by force or by lack of consent, but I think they COULD find takers. I know I have proposed the Ferengi and any other species that would not find a moral objection to monetizing the dead. There might well be others with beliefs in reincarnation who would regard it as the chance to have a say in where they will be reincarnated, who might also accept the offer, especially if offered the benefit of being able to interview and select the family line into which they would be reborn, and other similar perks.
IMO I would also try to persuade the Kobali to be a little more open to outside ideas--to not fight so vehemently against the "kin'steya" memories. That might be a harder sell as it means cultural "dilution" and not just a change in supplier, but at least in the absence of that, you could probably at least convince them to exercise greater diligence in memory removal for consenting donors.
I think that the Kobali CAN be convinced, with difficulty (as it means accepting a higher degree of uncertainty about the future population pool) to accept this. In contrast, there is no way even slightly possible to find a morally acceptable "market" for suttee.
Christian Gaming Community Fleets--Faith, Fun, and Fellowship! See the website and PM for more. :-) Proudly F2P.Signature image by gulberat. Avatar image by balsavor.deviantart.com.
Gulberat, I never said that we should wipe out the Kobali. My point was, I don't see anything about them that makes them better people in any concrete way than the Vaadwaur after Gaul and the bluegill hosts are removed from the picture. The thing I've been driving at through all this is that the Vaads at least have enough integrity to be honest about their natures: they don't pretend to be a peaceful people, unlike the Kobali. Same reason I prefer the pragmatic TOS/DS9 Federation to the TNG Mary Sue-topia.
"Great War! / And I cannot take more! / Great tour! / I keep on marching on / I play the great score / There will be no encore / Great War! / The War to End All Wars"
— Sabaton, "Great War"
I'll be disappointed if we get a kobali ship shoved off on us. Almost anything would have been better. I would rather have kazon carriers than anything from the kobali.
The kobali don't just reanimate dead bodies. The hide away still living victims, preventing them from living on their own, until they "die of natural causes." They KNEW why the vaadwaur were attacking them. They kept holding the sleeping, refusing to return them. They literally gave the vaadwuar no choice in the matter but to go to war with them.
Now with the leadership at the time, that very very justified war was taken too far (IE we are gonna wipe your species from the universe, even if you give them back), but that leadership is gone, and the current leadership has proven to be both trustworthy, and a good ally.
I couldn't care less what the kobali do to corpses. Corpses are just meat. What they did to helpless victims when they weren't at war makes them the bad guys. The vaadwuar are at least at war with the people they are killing.
And as allies the kobali are worthless. The deferi are more valuable allies than the kobali.
What I would like to see, is to find out that the kobali were actually the first to contact the iconians, and they got their conversion techniques from basically the same source the elachi did. Then after we find this out the Kobali do what the sleeper programming the iconians implanted in their genes makes them do: turn on us. Then we can have fun killing them wholesale. I would enjoy that story arc. It could end with the kobali trying to retreat to an elachi subspace fortress and we chase them there and have to defeat combined elachi and kobali forces. We get aided by the turei and the new vaaduar in the space battle. At the end we manage to recover something from the fortress that lets us engage the iconians directly. Then next season we do.
Gulberat, I never said that we should wipe out the Kobali. My point was, I don't see anything about them that makes them better people in any concrete way than the Vaadwaur after Gaul and the bluegill hosts are removed from the picture. The thing I've been driving at through all this is that the Vaads at least have enough integrity to be honest about their natures: they don't pretend to be a peaceful people, unlike the Kobali. Same reason I prefer the pragmatic TOS/DS9 Federation to the TNG Mary Sue-topia.
It may not be what you said, but it's a logical continuation of it. If you force the Kobali to get a signed letter of consent for every individual then they won't reproduce fast enough to avoid extinction.
Anyways... the Vaadwaur want to conquer the universe. As has been pointed out many times they do so because they feel it is their right. Not because they "need" to. And no the Vaadwaur ARE dishonest about being aggressive. The first time you see them in person they lie about wanting a diplomatic negotiation and try to kill everyone at the negotiations. Then they lie about why they're attacking the Kobali. You know their statement about how they want their people back is a lie since they refuse to take their people back when the Kobali offer to give them back.
It would be possible to keep Kobali reproductive rates at replacement levels IF some large-scale deals were worked out (again, the Ferengi Alliance is at least one such possibility assuming sufficient ability to prove the worth of their services to the Ferengi and to afford the asking price), but IMO this is the only acceptable way to do so. But to be perfectly honest, until starswordc qualified it, I thought he would've considered it all right for the Vaadwaur to just gas them all to death or slag the planet from orbit or other such Vaadwaury final solutions. I see now that he does not hold such an extreme view but that was the impression I had been getting when I wrote that.
Christian Gaming Community Fleets--Faith, Fun, and Fellowship! See the website and PM for more. :-) Proudly F2P.Signature image by gulberat. Avatar image by balsavor.deviantart.com.
Ppl... what are you talking about?
Kobali are not living... they are walking dead, disgusting zombie... they can speak but dont have soul...
Zombie must be eliminated!
Ppl... what are you talking about?
Kobali are not living... they are walking dead, disgusting zombie... they can speak but dont have soul...
Zombie must be eliminated!
If i had a choice, id join Gaul & Vaadwaur...
Please use proper English.
I won't even bother responding to what you said. It would be easier to convince a deaf man.
Your father was captain of a starship for twelve minutes. He saved 800 lives, including your mother's, and yours.
Comments
Let me try and answer that for you from a perspective of a primarily KDF and a long term player, at least in my opinion since I was amongst the first to post "RIP factions in STO" in this thread:
In 2013, which is amongst many considered the best KDF year in STO yet, Cryptic created 2 new ships for our faction.
One was made after the former EP Stahl publically promissed it for 2013 and still had to be after a complete s**tstorm and forum meltdown that followed Rivera's interview stating that they could push it for the next year because of Voth ships, while at the same time releasing the Avenger nobody asked for. You're probably guessing it by now - that ship was the Mogh.
You know what the other ship was? The Anniversary Kamarag. Without it, it would have been just one. One we had to burn the forum down in order to get the promise fulfilled. Do you want to know the number of ships the blue and green factions got that same year in comparison?
Mind you, this was arguably our (KDF) best year so far.
So knowing that now, you'll forgive an odd KDF player's dissapointment in this after he had hoped for seeing something new for his TRIBBLE red-haired stepchild faction of this game, like that T6 BoP or a science ship we've been begging for. At least for an anniversary since it was the tradition to do so and since they don't seem very fond of making KDF ships. It may sound funny, but to some of us the anniversary was the best chance to get that new faction-specific ship for the forseable future given how often new KDF ships happen around here.
Secondly, it's about the principle and the general direction of things. I'll take the same year of 2013 to compare - we had the 3-rd anniversary and all we had to do is enjoy and play a great new mission featuring the VO work of Denise Crosby to get a new faction specific ship. And both were and still are great and admirable ships.
After that the 4-th anniversary came and I have to say, I was positively suprised that they had not only made 3 new ships for each faction, but 3 variations of each. Yeah, their hulls looked like TRIBBLE and plastic toddler's toys (which has now been rectified by allowing faction specific hull materials), but there was one for each faction nevertheless. I remember and still see many Romulan players enjoy and utilize their DSD as it probably is the only worthwile pure-Romulan sci.ship they've got. Out of 2. :rolleyes:
However, the 4-th anniversary had been turned into a grind where you had to play idiotic mini Q games daily for some 20 days in order to get the new ship and furthermore that ship had a set that was obtainable by playing the new mission with Tuvok. Multiple times. Per character. But not only that, these ships even had a second set tied to the mini Q grind - a set which you could not complete without the mini Q grind even though you bought a set of 3 or 9 from the C-Store for cold hard cash. That or 600 Lobi per character for what essentially is suposed to be a "Thank you for supporting STO all these years" ship.
The thing is - it set a precedent. What was "Thank you for supporting us and our game, please enjoy this new ship gift as a token of apreciation" before, had been turned into a pointless grind. Now winter/summer events or similar grinds I understand completely. But this was the anniversary, get it? So don't be suprised if this year the ship is also tied to somekind of a grind yet again.
Following that trail of thought, this Kobali ship sets a precedent for the future as well. Why bother making 3 faction specific ships for anniversaries when we can slap only one alien one? It's the easy way out, the Cryptic trademark for this game. Therefore we can't hope for nice faction specific ships even for anniversaries anymore and as STO history has it - for certain factions those anniversary ships are just about the only new ships they get in a certain year. So yeah, I'm completely dissapointed, just as I was last year when I found out that a nice and friendly milestone had been turned into a grind.
Lastly, I'll be honest and say that I don't fancy the Kobali. Not at all. I don't hate them with passion like some people around here obviously do for their reasons, but I also dislike that we're basically shoehorned into helpoing them, especially regardless of our faction choice. So this ship could have been Kobali, or Vaadwaur or APU....I'd still have the same reaction due to reasons stated above.
I also be honest and say that I don't like cross-faction ships and I believe that they in the context in which are intorduced take away the genuine setting of Star Trek in the game. I understand the people that want and like them though. And I don't hate or hold a grudge against people that enjoy them.....well except ones that try to justify idiotic stuff like the Tholian and Undine ships or whine about Borg cubes.
But this, as already I mentioned, sets a precedent for anniversaries having cross-faction ships. And this is what I dislike, dissapoints me and makes me lose interest in the anniversary. It shouldn't really suprise us though, Cryptic has shown their incompetence to maintain a multi-faction game time and time again, with the mess that is "The bestest expansion evar!!!" being a shning beacon of their intent in terms of the factions in this game that are not Federation, and factions in general.
And no, sorry but I won't "put up and stay quiet" untill I see the ship's design, because seeing it changes nothing for me. It could look like a TRIBBLE or be worthy of drooling over, it makes no difference to people like me. Believe it or not, despite Cryptic's best attempts to chase us away, there are still quite a few of us fools and Star Trek fans that enjoyed playing Star Trek Online, not Generic Starship of the Month Online.
Sorry for the long rant, just my 2 cents on the issue.
It's too soon to worry if it is going to be just one type of ship or whether they plan national variants like the last anniversary and given their overbearing need to monetize everything I fully expect some kind of improved variants available later in the c-store, Lobi market etc.
It is so disappointing that they could be so focused on DR that everything else in the game now has to be co-opted by such tunnel vision. This is what I've come to expect from these guys, they've made it pretty obvious that they simply dislike designing Star Trek ships and give the impression that creativity somehow translates into continually foisting some generic scifi abortion on the players.
I'm sure there will be droves of players that will fly the ship, but then we could throw anything into the game whether it made sense or not and people would fly it. But then this game isn't really Star Trek anymore so what the hell, let the weirdness roll out, it will be an amusing spectacle of wrongness if nothing else.
Did you miss the genocide bit? And did you miss the part where they laid waste to the entire motherf---ing quadrant?
Everyone keeps focusing on how "evil" and "reprehensible" the Kobali are for changing corpses into Kobali, but I just don't see it. For one thing, one can't obtain consent from the dead. And remember what that one Kobali said about changing people to Kobali. They view it as the highest honor to the dead person. What if there was a race that saw burial as reprehensible? To them, we would be monsters.
And if you think killing the Talaxians was a "heroic act worthy of praise," or feel that the Vaadwaur were justified in committing genocide, then you are in absolutely NO position to judge the Kobali for an act that was merely morally questionable AT WORST.
Your father was captain of a starship for twelve minutes. He saved 800 lives, including your mother's, and yours.
I dare you to do better.
I'll let one of my fanfics, "Last Rights", answer this one, referencing another trope, Culture Justifies Anything:
They may view it as the "highest honor" to the dead person, but as "Ashes to Ashes" showed they'll fight like mad to keep the resulting Kobali with them against their will. That is not something to be admired. The Kobali are no better than the Borg except for the fact that they're not trying to conquer the galaxy.
— Sabaton, "Great War"
Check out https://unitedfederationofpla.net/s/
I took the time to read what you wrote Starsword and I have to say, interesting take on the whole thing.
I personally have no problem with what the Kobali are doing to survive beyond the fact they are not giving a choice to the Dead nor the races involved. I can see their point of view but it is not a POV I'd like to be looking at all the same.
In counter though...the Vaaduwar are kinda setting themselves up from the start as the hostile power and while they were responding to what the Kobali did...attempted Genocide is a bit out of proportion to what was done.
The Kobali are trying to survive best they can. Doesn't make it right just like the Vidiians and their method of surviving the Phage. Yes, trying to keep the Dead from their families may seem wrong but how would one react TO a dead family member returning like that? Especially if they've done their grieving? It comes down to a choice that stinks no matter what.
The Vaaduwar on the other hand...some of them are good but the leadership is making very poor choices with their new toys. Also, while they have the right to be angry with the Kobali doing what they did...they do not have the right to wipe out an entire species for the bad choices of a few.
In a sense...the whole situation is a huge mess with no easy answers to who is right or wrong.
I agree with shpoks historicizing. And if can vote for faction ships, I vote for faction ships. I would like some t6 ships that will run me less than 9,000 zen to get one for each of my main toons for each faction. Thanks developers. Here's to hoping 2015 is better for the player base than 2014.
We have seen the Vaadwaur perform a test of the bio-agent they were going to use. And again, everyone keeps forgetting the massacre of the Talaxians. I think we've seen plenty of the Vaadwaur Supremacy's evil actions. By the way, I'm not a huge Talaxian fan, and I positively hate Neelix's yammering, overenthusiastic guts. But that doesn't mean TRIBBLE. Hell, I would have even been mad if Gaul massacred a bunch of Kazon. Not as mad as I was at the Talaxian massacre, but still. A massacre is unjustifiable, no matter what race it is carried out on or by, and no matter what the reason.
On an unrelated note, why does every post I read always devolve to ****ting on the devs for one reason or another?
Your father was captain of a starship for twelve minutes. He saved 800 lives, including your mother's, and yours.
I dare you to do better.
A race of, ........... well, ........ leftovers, .................. who cannot fight for themselves, have to have our engineers show them how to fix their own equipment, and couldn't figure out that holding someone elses people who are on ice in suspended animation might cause the people who put them there to get a bit upset, just doesn't engender a vote of confidence for becoming premier ship builders the day after the war ends.
Add to it the planned addition of content to the ships mastery that leaves those without T6 Intel ships the only ones with skill points spent in the Intel slots that are now wasted as there's no complimentary reskill on those already Intel slotted points.
STO took the finest ships they had ever built, the Odyssey and the Bortasqu', made them a grind to reach unless you spend cash, and then made them nearly obsolete within months of their premier. Adding an upgrade to a T5U just didn't get it when they brought in the mastery format that carries it's basis on a T6 Intel. Two completely different ships with two completely different roles.
Everyone has room to complain on this one. It's fixable though and that's the part that gets me. No effort to make the fix. Just keep adding to the problem. Stop trying to make the T5U into a T6 in name only. One is an Engineers Cruiser. The other is science oriented.
What good is an Intel Bridge Officer to anything other than a T6? You can't even give Intel Officers trained ground skills to your away team when working with anything other than a T6! What's presented as a Tier leveling up isn't even a lateral movement. It's a betrayal of those who worked so hard to to get the latest and greatest in the T5. The T6 is not a leveling up. It's an additional science ship that was presented as a leveling up when it should have been a T5 science vessel with unique new features.
How about we let people voice there opinions if they change there minds when they see the exterior then so be it. I for one won't be grinding for the ship as I would have preferred a fed kdf or rom specific ship but this will be a blessing in disguise rather than do a mission x amount of time I can do it once and get it over with and not to have to play find the Q game over 14 days gives me time to play something else
Vice Admiral Volmack ISS Thundermole
Brigadier General Jokag IKS Gorkan
Centurion Kares RRW Tomalak
[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
my sentiments exactly
Vice Admiral Volmack ISS Thundermole
Brigadier General Jokag IKS Gorkan
Centurion Kares RRW Tomalak
[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
I'll tell you how they'd react. Same way the families of the crew of the USS Rapier (from the "Cardassian Struggle" series) probably reacted after them being stuck in the Bajoran wormhole for six gorram years. In "Rapier"'s debriefing Captain Kurland said outright that they'd been declared legally dead. Does that mean the Rapier crew shouldn't be allowed to go home?
All of which happened well after the Kobali arc. You know that old saw that you only get one chance to make an impression? The impression players who haven't finished the storyline yet because of the level-gating get is that the Vaads are imperialists at worst, whereas the Kobali come off like the love-child of Jiro Sugihara and the Borg: an entire species of irritatingly upbeat, dishonest ideologues who are committing systematic war crimes.
I'd take the Vaads over the Kobali for the same reason I prefer the Romulans to the Klingons. At least the Romulans are honest with themselves about why they're fighting you: no nebulous, self-serving concepts of "honor"; they're fighting you because it advances their national interests.
— Sabaton, "Great War"
Check out https://unitedfederationofpla.net/s/
What do you mean "well after the Kobali arc?" That was all during the Kobali arc, and the massacre at Entaba was before. The Kobali are just trying to survive, and you can't compare them to the Viidians, because they do not kill anyone in the process.
Oh, and do you know anything about the Romulans? That mnesaihe or whatever it's called sounds suspiciously like a nebulous, self serving concept of honor to me.
Your father was captain of a starship for twelve minutes. He saved 800 lives, including your mother's, and yours.
I dare you to do better.
But no, because plot, you're not consulted despite being by far the seniormost officer, as well as the one with the most combat experience, in the entire theatre.
And yes, I can compare them to the Vidiians. A, the Vidiians use cadaver organs as well as living ones, and B, there's zero evidence the Kobali would have any qualms about using corpses they themselves made.
I should also point out, Gaul committed half the Vaads' war crimes himself and gave personal orders for the rest. Minus Gaul, they're little worse than the Klingons. With the Kobali it's systematic throughout their entire culture.
Not the last time I checked. It's pretty clearly defined and they also don't constantly bang on about it like the Klingons and use it as an excuse in their war planning. Whereas the Klingons use circular reasoning i.e. "It's honorable to kill random people because I'm a Klingon, and because I'm Klingon it's honorable to kill random people." Also, I'll point out, much as I like it it's not a canon concept and AFAIK never even referenced in-game except for a name-drop in The Path to 2409.
— Sabaton, "Great War"
Check out https://unitedfederationofpla.net/s/
So no, the Kobali don't have a leg to stand on in morality and comparing them to the Vidiians is completely justified.
— Sabaton, "Great War"
Check out https://unitedfederationofpla.net/s/
I thought I heard two or three different chemicals and pathogens referred to.
1) Anti-Kobali vaccine for Vaadwaur and other species to prevent conversion (cool)
2) Chemical/pathogen to kill all infected organisms, including living Kobali (NOT cool)
There may have been a third one but I am not so sure about that.
Christian Gaming Community Fleets--Faith, Fun, and Fellowship! See the website and PM for more. :-)
Proudly F2P. Signature image by gulberat. Avatar image by balsavor.deviantart.com.
But the Vaadawur were prepared to cross the line and commit genocide to kill all the Kobali, that's a little bit too far for any group of people to get away with.
The war was because the Kobali seriously pissed the Vaadwaur off, desecrating their dead and being unwilling to give up the remaining survivors in the stasis pods.
But to go and wipe out the whole race because of that seems rather excessive regardless of how offended you get by it all.
The Kobali are not exactly innocent as they should have considered how offended any races would be to find them stealing corpses of their loved ones and turning them into living Kobali. But there really is no evidence to suggest they would be some threat to the quadrant, going round starting wars to generate bodies for their needs. They lied to protect what they thought was the jackpot, something they were unwilling to give up despite it risking their entire planet's safety.
The Vaadwaur were beaten down centuries ago because of the other powers in the quadrant felt they were such a threat they had to bombard their homeworld from orbit. I think we can work out fairly easily they were not the nicest of people back then if everyone one else joined up to remove them from existence, they must have been some serious threat.
It's highly likely they would have gone back to their old ways, especially as they are now getting their power via the Iconians, clearly they are not just going to go about saying sorry for their past deeds.
We find the Kobali way of life offense based off our own beliefs and via of life & death, but there is no way they are as bad as a group willing to commit genocide.
Oh, after Entaba I'm perfectly willing to concede that Gaul and his bluegill-infested compatriots were willing to commit genocide. But given Eldex I'm much less sure about the entire Vaadwaur nation. And it's quite possible the Turei bombed them into extinction the first time simply because they don't have the Federation's level of moral hangups and wanted to end the problem permanently.
The Kobali, on the other hand, have zero concept at all that they're doing anything wrong.
— Sabaton, "Great War"
Check out https://unitedfederationofpla.net/s/
But that's because it is their whole culture and means of survival. It seems utterly alien and disturbing to us but to a race on the other side of the galaxy it probably is not too weird. They've lived with this way of life for so long they just accept it as what needs to be done.
Some alien races would probably look upon organ and blood transplants in the real world on earth as just as heinous a crime, but we think of them as an every day thing nowadays. I'd imagine the Kobali see their acts as no different.
Plus i'd say they do have some idea of how wrong it is, they aren't killing people to turn into their own, they only use dead bodies they find, so I think they at least realise it's maybe not going to be accepted by everyone else in the quadrant but they are doing their best in a bad situation.
Unlike the Vidians for example who have only really been exposed to the Phage in recent times and have no qualms with murder and organ harvesting from living beings to ensure their survival.
You do know what the difference is between an organ transplant and the Kobali using somebody's corpse, right?
One word: "Consent". The person giving an organ transplant or donating their body to science, or hell, donating blood, has consented in writing to have their body used that way. I should know; I donate blood multiple times per year and I'm a registered bone marrow donor.
The Kobali don't bother to ask anyone; they just take. And if you, horror of horrors, don't like being Kobali, they retrieve you by force and indoctrinate you until you like it.
So you consider using Vaadwaur battlefield casualties that they themselves killed to be "finding" a dead body. Glad to know we're on the same page. :rolleyes:
No, the Kobali have no concept that they're doing anything wrong. By their own admission they consider it near-criminal not to revive somebody.
Actually the Vidiians have been fighting the Phage for over 2,000 years (VOY: "Phage"). Yet another point of similarity.
ETA: Let me give you a comparison situation. Indian culture used to call for burning a dead man's widow alive on his funeral pyre, a practice called settee. This is what the British governor of India reputedly said of the practice in 1843:
Just because it's "their culture" doesn't make it right.
— Sabaton, "Great War"
Check out https://unitedfederationofpla.net/s/
I am cool with those who wish to inoculate themselves with an anti-conversion vaccine. More reasonable Vaadwaur could even have made a hell of a financial conquest by collecting royalties on its production. (Just imagine the public hysteria they could whip up with their advertising campaign to drive sales...)
However, similar to the "mutant cure" from X-Men, the Kobali should be permitted to compete in the market of ideas. Not by force or by lack of consent, but I think they COULD find takers. I know I have proposed the Ferengi and any other species that would not find a moral objection to monetizing the dead. There might well be others with beliefs in reincarnation who would regard it as the chance to have a say in where they will be reincarnated, who might also accept the offer, especially if offered the benefit of being able to interview and select the family line into which they would be reborn, and other similar perks.
IMO I would also try to persuade the Kobali to be a little more open to outside ideas--to not fight so vehemently against the "kin'steya" memories. That might be a harder sell as it means cultural "dilution" and not just a change in supplier, but at least in the absence of that, you could probably at least convince them to exercise greater diligence in memory removal for consenting donors.
I think that the Kobali CAN be convinced, with difficulty (as it means accepting a higher degree of uncertainty about the future population pool) to accept this. In contrast, there is no way even slightly possible to find a morally acceptable "market" for suttee.
Christian Gaming Community Fleets--Faith, Fun, and Fellowship! See the website and PM for more. :-)
Proudly F2P. Signature image by gulberat. Avatar image by balsavor.deviantart.com.
— Sabaton, "Great War"
Check out https://unitedfederationofpla.net/s/
The kobali don't just reanimate dead bodies. The hide away still living victims, preventing them from living on their own, until they "die of natural causes." They KNEW why the vaadwaur were attacking them. They kept holding the sleeping, refusing to return them. They literally gave the vaadwuar no choice in the matter but to go to war with them.
Now with the leadership at the time, that very very justified war was taken too far (IE we are gonna wipe your species from the universe, even if you give them back), but that leadership is gone, and the current leadership has proven to be both trustworthy, and a good ally.
I couldn't care less what the kobali do to corpses. Corpses are just meat. What they did to helpless victims when they weren't at war makes them the bad guys. The vaadwuar are at least at war with the people they are killing.
And as allies the kobali are worthless. The deferi are more valuable allies than the kobali.
What I would like to see, is to find out that the kobali were actually the first to contact the iconians, and they got their conversion techniques from basically the same source the elachi did. Then after we find this out the Kobali do what the sleeper programming the iconians implanted in their genes makes them do: turn on us. Then we can have fun killing them wholesale. I would enjoy that story arc. It could end with the kobali trying to retreat to an elachi subspace fortress and we chase them there and have to defeat combined elachi and kobali forces. We get aided by the turei and the new vaaduar in the space battle. At the end we manage to recover something from the fortress that lets us engage the iconians directly. Then next season we do.
Anyways... the Vaadwaur want to conquer the universe. As has been pointed out many times they do so because they feel it is their right. Not because they "need" to. And no the Vaadwaur ARE dishonest about being aggressive. The first time you see them in person they lie about wanting a diplomatic negotiation and try to kill everyone at the negotiations. Then they lie about why they're attacking the Kobali. You know their statement about how they want their people back is a lie since they refuse to take their people back when the Kobali offer to give them back.
My character Tsin'xing
Christian Gaming Community Fleets--Faith, Fun, and Fellowship! See the website and PM for more. :-)
Proudly F2P. Signature image by gulberat. Avatar image by balsavor.deviantart.com.
Kobali are not living... they are walking dead, disgusting zombie... they can speak but dont have soul...
Zombie must be eliminated!
If i had a choice, id join Gaul & Vaadwaur...
Please use proper English.
I won't even bother responding to what you said. It would be easier to convince a deaf man.
Your father was captain of a starship for twelve minutes. He saved 800 lives, including your mother's, and yours.
I dare you to do better.