OP is assuming that Cryptic don't control the market no matter what they say they would be fools not to make sure there's enough dilithium in circulation, if dilithium is worth too much then they lose zen sales, if dilithium is not worth enough then players don't buy zen with it until it's worth more which means zen sellers see the value of their RL purchase drop. My guess is Cryptic keep it around 120-170 as ideal, with the occasional player driven spike when there's a sudden demand.
Key prices falling, this is probably because for a long time there are a few hundred key traders that have stock piled thousands and thousands of keys, now they have realised that the players are struggling to gain and keep EC so they are cutting their losses and selling at lower rates undercutting each other all the time.
In fact your opinion that there is no indication that people are spending less is deeply flawed, STO has been around a long time and those traders that enjoy playing the exchange, those companies that play the exchange to sell on their websites have massive reserves of stuff they can't shift, so what you see is them undercutting the market to get back something before it's too late.
Supporting evidence:
Massive costs of upgrades in both dil and EC - less EC in circulation which therefore directly counters your argument.
Massive EC loot nerfs - Same reasoning as above.
The fact that many whales such as myself have publicly stated they are no longer spending on the game.
The fact that since DR more players have left than ever before and the only reason it's still going is the die hards and noobs still arriving.
None of the above would support mass spending in game.
Just my opinion, could all be bollocks, but I don't really care anyway any more. Right I hear Tamriel calling, ttfn.
Pay to win my right eye. You can still build a ship for little to nothing and compete. The new T-6 carrier is a pain in the argula. You all need to quite your crying. Would anyone pay for nothing no. So of course it is an advantage such as life. Get over it. I often wonder what you people do in real life. Do you complain when the neighbor gets a new car? Pvp has more things one must learn and your to lazy to figure the new stuff out so you rage quit. That is why the ques are dead. Truth hurts I know but someone had to tell you.
And at the rate things are going, by the time you build that ship the sun will have entered it's red giant phase and all life on Earth will be gone.
There is absolutely NOTHING you can do in game to create zen.
Incorrect. Absolutely wrong. EC and Dilithium can be used to acquire Zen. You completely ignore that while zen can be traded down to dilithium and EC, the reverse is also true.
In fact, depending on the time of day and the value of ZEN, EC to Zen can be profitable.
You can create in game currency like dil or ec and trade it to someone else who has paid money for zen, but there is no in-game way to get zen. It only ever originates with real money, something that is outside and seperate from the game.
You're wrong. Your base assumptions are wrong because you don't understand the game mechanics..
Making assumption about the economy in an MMO is ridiculous to start with. Too many factors are at play:
1.) Cryptic can salt the process at any time and we'd never know about it. Most MMO's do, and Cryptic has with other titles in Asia. If I have to explain the context of 'salting' to you, you have no business talking about an economy - fictional or real.
2.) Cryptic can arbitrarily adjust ANY transaction element in the system. The player cannot.
3.) Key pricing is relative to demand. The last major incentive to buy a box was the R&D drop for the Sheshar. No keys needed.
4.) Key prices drop before they announce a new box. I've been playing since before F2P. Keys have ranged from 500K to 3.5 Million during that time.
MMO economies are fun to postulate about. But without concise data, basing an agrument on assumptions just makes an TRIBBLE out of U and ME.
Heh, after you endlessly grinded months to, buy & upgrade it. And until then, smart as their metric$ are, Cryptic throws out new OP stuff and you end up being out-dps-ed, all this game is now about.
LOL, because P2W killed PvP and made competition a no go.
Before P2W i was PvP'ing every day ;P
Hey...if you can't control yourself and you find you can't compete unless you have the new shiny that's not my fault or Cryptic's.
Which is funny because they newest stuff isn't even always the best...the Scimitar and Benthan Cruiser are calling.
Can't have a honest conversation because of a white knight with power
Incorrect. Absolutely wrong. EC and Dilithium can be used to acquire Zen. You completely ignore that while zen can be traded down to dilithium and EC, the reverse is also true.
In fact, depending on the time of day and the value of ZEN, EC to Zen can be profitable.
You quoted someone talking about creating zen, not acquiring.
This is my Risian Corvette. There are many like it, but this one is mine.
Contraband, master keys, and/or buying what you wanted to spend zen on for EC.
But what I want to spend Zen on is stuff you can't buy on the Exchange - the TOS Bundle, for instance. You're not showing me how to get Zen for EC - you're showing me how to get some of the stuff Zen can buy for EC. And I've already done that, which is why my main owns the Mirror Universe deep-space science recon vessel ISS Mengele.
You're assuming lockbox key prices are going down because there's too high of a supply (i.e., people are spending too much RL money). Could be that's true. Could also simply mean lockbox ships have lost some of their appeal, as the only available T6 lockbox ships are the Benthan and Hazari one, and peeps are simply less interested in the old T5 ones now. Aka, less demand.
Agreed. Keys may be going down, but Fleet Modules are going up.
But what I want to spend Zen on is stuff you can't buy on the Exchange - the TOS Bundle, for instance. You're not showing me how to get Zen for EC - you're showing me how to get some of the stuff Zen can buy for EC. And I've already done that, which is why my main owns the Mirror Universe deep-space science recon vessel ISS Mengele.
You run the turn in contraband Doff mission from a security officer. You turn in 5 contraband to get 2,000 unrefined Dil.
This is my Risian Corvette. There are many like it, but this one is mine.
Okay, fine. Given the amount of Zen I'd need to get the C-Store stuff I want, I think I'd still rather pay cash. (And yes, that falls under the heading of "impatience". Doing it via Dil just takes so bloody long!)
On the gripping hand, none of the C-Store stuff is necessary to my enjoyment of the game. For personal reasons, it would amuse me to dress Capt. Church in TOS command gold...
There has been a lot of ballyhoo on the forums about the game being wrecked, and people abandoning it, but I don't think there is good evidence that this is true.
Unless we have the actual figures, I don't think anything can be definitively determined. Cryptic is the only entity in which has the actual projections. Before I decided to take a leave of absence, the stf-ground queues were barely triggering. Some of the problems were due to bad game mechanics, low reward systems, and high difficulty settings.
After spending several months arguing against "Delta Rising+", I have decided to take a 'wait and see' approach. I have spent way-way too much money to just walk away. $600, across two accounts, is allot of money.
I love my characters. I love my fleet-mates. I love the majority of the episode missions. I love the socializing. I love dancing. I love Bajor. I love Risa. I love Defera. I love role-playing. I love Starfleet Academy. I love the patrol missions. I love the ground missions. I love the ground reputation items. I love my ships. I love the character customization options. I love the ship customization options.
I want "Star Trek: Online" to feel 'live' again. When the hourly calender events existed, I felt as though they made everyday a "Star Trek" episode. Everything felt 'live' and 'alive. Once they removed the hourly calender events, the game lost that 'now playing' mentality. Even though the endless grinding is an issue, I think the removal of the hourly calender events made everything static. I think the problem started with the removal of the Omega office.
I loved how 'everyone' congregated at: the Omega Office, Quark's bar, Drozana, Earth Space Dock, etc... Once the fleetbases were added to the game, while certain events were removed, the player base ended up becoming too thinned out. People still congregate in certain locations; however, the feeling of everything was drastically different.
"Star Trek: Online" has become too much about 'the grind', and it has become less about casual role-playing, PvP, and socializing.
Everyone in the game is thinking about 'the grind' rather than 'let us do something different'.
--- Added ---
I will always see Bajor, Andoria, and Vulcan as missed opportunities.
It's because the forums think they they are the only people who count and smeg everyone else who doesn't agree with them. I will not have anyone on these forums dictate to me that if I spend my 5 bucks amonth I support a broken game. it's not broken. The forums are for telling me how to spend my money.
Defending The Galaxy By Breaking One Starfleet Regulation After The Next.
But what I want to spend Zen on is stuff you can't buy on the Exchange - the TOS Bundle, for instance. You're not showing me how to get Zen for EC - you're showing me how to get some of the stuff Zen can buy for EC. And I've already done that, which is why my main owns the Mirror Universe deep-space science recon vessel ISS Mengele.
Keys open lockboxes. Lockboxes have rich mining claims. Contraband can be turned in to a security officer.
Both require an alt army to effectively operate. But if you have such an army millions of purple rocks can be yours for less than 30 minutes a day. Which can then become thousands of zen.
It's because the forums think they they are the only people who count and smeg everyone else who doesn't agree with them. I will not have anyone on these forums dictate to me that if I spend my 5 bucks amonth I support a broken game. it's not broken. The forums are for telling me how to spend my money.
Psychology 101: You are trying to own Cryptic's problems. Player do not have a problem with others, but they do have a problem with Cryptic. You have to stop taking the negative backlash personally, for it does not directly affect you on a personal level.
I think the time has come. I think I am done fighting. I think it is time to simply accept that I am not a member of their target audience, and that the game as it is, is simply all it is ever going to be.
Cryptic may never change direction. Since they are making enough money, I do not think Cryptic will have a change in heart. Its all about the money.
I agree with the OP.
I have realized it's a Yes, after seeing Sheshars everywhere some time ago.
No doubt some players are leaving and/or are on a break but we shouldn't forget new players coming
He's got a point. As has been explained, I can get Zen and keys without spending money - but somebody else had to buy them first, and then agree to sell them for in-game resources...
Actually not totally true. Cryptic have the power to add and delete stuff as needed, including Zen and Dil. It allows them to change the market mechanics if needed. The "purchase" is not always accountable to real money, especially if the market is close to extremes.
Just with any market it can be manipulated by the currencies directly.
Chris Robert's on SC:
"You don't have to do something again and again and again repetitive that doesn't have much challange, that's just a general good gameplay thing."
Which is, and not by coincidence, the whole point and thesis of the thread.
Because the only way to get these things is for someone to spend real money on them, the supply of them is absolutely and unbreakably tied to people spending money on the game.
All other game resources can be created just by playing, they are unlimited in the game, but zen and c-store items are strictly limited by the amount of money being spent on the game.
And when you have a ratio of something unlimited/something limited, the ratio will go up and up if there is a slowdown in the limited thing.
Not necessarily. You are only looking from a supply viewpoint and ignoring the demand aspect completely.
I have well over a million purple rocks plus I am expecting to get a stupid amount more on the purple rock weekend. My supply is, for all intents and purpose unlimited.
Yet I have no demand for ZEN. I already have more than I want considering I see nothing I want to purchase, nor do I expect to see anything for quite some time. You see my main is quite happy with the ship he is in and the alts haven't even finished the ship masteries I desire for the traits. This means regardless of what new ships are in the store for the anniversary patch I will probably not purchase them. This is not out of spite, simply lack of desire.
A vicious circle has been created by the current SP reward setup. My alts are progressing painfully slow because I don't bother grinding out patrols like a madman I'm lucky to average one a day instead I do a few queues or don't log it at all. No SP means no Mastery means no new ship.
Price is usually dependent upon both supply and demand. Supply is not limited by anything in this game beyond the value of time played VS money spent. The only true thing that matters is demand in the STO market.
Actually not totally true. Cryptic have the power to add and delete stuff as needed, including Zen and Dil. It allows them to change the market mechanics if needed. The "purchase" is not always accountable to real money, especially if the market is close to extremes.
Just with any market it can be manipulated by the currencies directly.
And we will never find out, how manipulated the Zen market is, like we never find out the real active player numbers.
Comments
I agree with my Fleet Admiral.
ADM Board, Whitehall, London - United Federation of Planets
http://www.srs-fleet.net/
And at the rate things are going, by the time you build that ship the sun will have entered it's red giant phase and all life on Earth will be gone.
That doesn't matter in the game of technically correct.
I never laughed so good, thank you.
Correct.
Incorrect. Absolutely wrong. EC and Dilithium can be used to acquire Zen. You completely ignore that while zen can be traded down to dilithium and EC, the reverse is also true.
In fact, depending on the time of day and the value of ZEN, EC to Zen can be profitable.
You're wrong. Your base assumptions are wrong because you don't understand the game mechanics..
Making assumption about the economy in an MMO is ridiculous to start with. Too many factors are at play:
1.) Cryptic can salt the process at any time and we'd never know about it. Most MMO's do, and Cryptic has with other titles in Asia. If I have to explain the context of 'salting' to you, you have no business talking about an economy - fictional or real.
2.) Cryptic can arbitrarily adjust ANY transaction element in the system. The player cannot.
3.) Key pricing is relative to demand. The last major incentive to buy a box was the R&D drop for the Sheshar. No keys needed.
4.) Key prices drop before they announce a new box. I've been playing since before F2P. Keys have ranged from 500K to 3.5 Million during that time.
MMO economies are fun to postulate about. But without concise data, basing an agrument on assumptions just makes an TRIBBLE out of U and ME.
My Two Bits,
Admiral Thrax
Well then don't complain when you spend money because it's a active choice it's not like it's the only option.
Hey...if you can't control yourself and you find you can't compete unless you have the new shiny that's not my fault or Cryptic's.
Which is funny because they newest stuff isn't even always the best...the Scimitar and Benthan Cruiser are calling.
You quoted someone talking about creating zen, not acquiring.
Contraband is one example.
Contraband, master keys, and/or buying what you wanted to spend zen on for EC.
It's quite possible that keys are getting cheaper because people are sick of lockboxes, or the ones that usually buy keys with EC quit.
Agreed. Keys may be going down, but Fleet Modules are going up.
You run the turn in contraband Doff mission from a security officer. You turn in 5 contraband to get 2,000 unrefined Dil.
EC --> Contraband in Exchange -->Turn in Contraband --> Dil
On the gripping hand, none of the C-Store stuff is necessary to my enjoyment of the game. For personal reasons, it would amuse me to dress Capt. Church in TOS command gold...
After spending several months arguing against "Delta Rising+", I have decided to take a 'wait and see' approach. I have spent way-way too much money to just walk away. $600, across two accounts, is allot of money.
I love my characters. I love my fleet-mates. I love the majority of the episode missions. I love the socializing. I love dancing. I love Bajor. I love Risa. I love Defera. I love role-playing. I love Starfleet Academy. I love the patrol missions. I love the ground missions. I love the ground reputation items. I love my ships. I love the character customization options. I love the ship customization options.
I want "Star Trek: Online" to feel 'live' again. When the hourly calender events existed, I felt as though they made everyday a "Star Trek" episode. Everything felt 'live' and 'alive. Once they removed the hourly calender events, the game lost that 'now playing' mentality. Even though the endless grinding is an issue, I think the removal of the hourly calender events made everything static. I think the problem started with the removal of the Omega office.
I loved how 'everyone' congregated at: the Omega Office, Quark's bar, Drozana, Earth Space Dock, etc... Once the fleetbases were added to the game, while certain events were removed, the player base ended up becoming too thinned out. People still congregate in certain locations; however, the feeling of everything was drastically different.
"Star Trek: Online" has become too much about 'the grind', and it has become less about casual role-playing, PvP, and socializing.
Everyone in the game is thinking about 'the grind' rather than 'let us do something different'.
--- Added ---
I will always see Bajor, Andoria, and Vulcan as missed opportunities.
Defending The Galaxy By Breaking One Starfleet Regulation After The Next.
Keys open lockboxes. Lockboxes have rich mining claims. Contraband can be turned in to a security officer.
Both require an alt army to effectively operate. But if you have such an army millions of purple rocks can be yours for less than 30 minutes a day. Which can then become thousands of zen.
Cryptic may never change direction. Since they are making enough money, I do not think Cryptic will have a change in heart. Its all about the money.
I have realized it's a Yes, after seeing Sheshars everywhere some time ago.
No doubt some players are leaving and/or are on a break but we shouldn't forget new players coming
As long as we get content updates, the game is doing fine.
However: I think they could help the current queue problem by having each queue get a bonus on a daily basis.
Odan Brota (Science Officer): Captain of a 28k DPS Scryer Intel Science Vessel, U.S.S. Kepler
Patiently waiting for a Romulan Science Vessel
Just with any market it can be manipulated by the currencies directly.
"You don't have to do something again and again and again repetitive that doesn't have much challange, that's just a general good gameplay thing."
Not necessarily. You are only looking from a supply viewpoint and ignoring the demand aspect completely.
I have well over a million purple rocks plus I am expecting to get a stupid amount more on the purple rock weekend. My supply is, for all intents and purpose unlimited.
Yet I have no demand for ZEN. I already have more than I want considering I see nothing I want to purchase, nor do I expect to see anything for quite some time. You see my main is quite happy with the ship he is in and the alts haven't even finished the ship masteries I desire for the traits. This means regardless of what new ships are in the store for the anniversary patch I will probably not purchase them. This is not out of spite, simply lack of desire.
A vicious circle has been created by the current SP reward setup. My alts are progressing painfully slow because I don't bother grinding out patrols like a madman I'm lucky to average one a day instead I do a few queues or don't log it at all. No SP means no Mastery means no new ship.
Price is usually dependent upon both supply and demand. Supply is not limited by anything in this game beyond the value of time played VS money spent. The only true thing that matters is demand in the STO market.
And we will never find out, how manipulated the Zen market is, like we never find out the real active player numbers.
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