Sounds like a better system. Cryptic can charge as much dilithium as they want, sounds way better than fiddling around with the boff trainer and exchange all the time.
I believe the point being emphasized is that this is showing a trend toward monetizing more systems, not the actual cost. Sure, 100 or even 1,000 dil isn't all that much. Keep monetizing more and more systems and this will eventually add up.
This.
It's still a dilithium sink even if it's a "nickel and dime to death" dilithium sink.
I'm of the opinion that nothing new will go into the game without a dilithium/zen cost attached to it, at this point.
Improving the Exchange Search difficult??? you've never programmed anything, have you? Search engines are the first thing you learn to code if you are a coder.
Hello World has stepped its game up from my day then.
This is my Risian Corvette. There are many like it, but this one is mine.
It's still a dilithium sink even if it's a "nickel and dime to death" dilithium sink.
I'm of the opinion that nothing new will go into the game without a dilithium/zen cost attached to it, at this point.
Yes, I agree - it does make sense that if Cryptic is going to spend dev time on a new system, they should have a way to recoup those costs. You are right - this is entirely reasonable and a rational thing for them to do.
Yes, I agree - it does make sense that if Cryptic is going to spend dev time on a new system, they should have a way to recoup those costs. You are right - this is entirely reasonable and a rational thing for them to do.
So... why are you acting like it's a bad thing?
I think they have enough ways to "recoup costs."
This is starting to remind me of the KDF. Circular fail logic.
Add monetization. Some people leave because of this. Others blindly throw money at it. A few tolerate it.
Add more monetization. More leave because of this. Some blindly throw money at it. A few grudgingly tolerate it.
Add more monetization. Even more leave because of it. Some blindly throw money at it. A few complain, and barely tolerate it.
More monetization---makes some people leave, which means they need---more monetization---makes some people leave, which means they need---more monetization....
I believe the point being emphasized is that this is showing a trend toward monetizing more systems, not the actual cost. Sure, 100 or even 1,000 dil isn't all that much. Keep monetizing more and more systems and this will eventually add up.
If monetization is an issue for you then don't craft pads. Simple as that. Even R+D and upgrades don't necessarily incur a dil cost if you work from the exchange for all your gear. It is however nice to spend resources to upgrade and build what you want to. That could work from the stock of some other resources besides dil but it is a handy way of translating playtime to currency that maintains some consistency across a player's experience with the game (see. what 1,000,000 ec means to a fresh 50 on their first playthrough verus a veteran with 10 alts.)
Its an unfortunate byproduct of adding more stuff to the game that you're less able to afford absolutely everything you may want but stating the matter as a problem is missing the point of the game by quite a bit. The status quo of income/expense isn't, by any stetch of the imagination, a concept worth maintaining for a video game (systems and content should evolve).
Bipedal mammal and senior Foundry author.
Notable missions: Apex [AEI], Gemini [SSF], Trident [AEI], Evolution's Smile [SSF], Transcendence
Looking for something new to play? I've started building Foundry missions again in visual novel form!
I believe the point being emphasized is that this is showing a trend toward monetizing more systems, not the actual cost. Sure, 100 or even 1,000 dil isn't all that much. Keep monetizing more and more systems and this will eventually add up.
Guess what, all idea in earning dilithium is for spending it later for something. Real problem which I see with some people here is fact that they want everything right now, instead earn it through time. And this is how good F2P works, have everything for free and "pay" with time, or get what you want right now but deal with fact that it will cost you $.
What is more as it was said here, you wan't have to pay even 1 dilithium if you don't want to. All needed items will be on exchange.
Supposing it is 200 dil per Padd. How much dil will you end up spending? If you consider just one ship and one set of officers for a T5-U that's 12 slots(this is if padds are the only way to train beyond one skill or if this is just limiting to class specific abilities) at 2400 dil, that's not cheap.
But only 4 of those are rank III abilities, which are the only ones you can't buy directly from the trainer and need to go through the crafting process.
All crafted manuals will require a PADD (Personal Access Display Device) which is a new crafting component. The cost of creating this component is several uncommon crafting materials and a small amount of Diltihium and Energy Credits. Once a PADD component is created players can use it to create their own manuals or they can be traded and sold to other players for assistance in creating manuals you might not have access to.
The primary method for obtaining Training Manuals is to purchase them from any of the current bridge officer training officers, who now will sell the manuals. Any ability that was previously trainable will have a Training Manual available for purchase. The other method in which players can obtain Training Manuals for the higher ranked abilities is to craft them in the new Officer Training crafting school.
Star Trek Online Advancement: You start with lowbie gear, you end with Lobi gear.
Well, why do you all hate this revamp? Let me point-out a few things:
- With more then 1 set of abilities for each Bridge-Officer you need less BOFF-Slots for the same amount of ships/loadouts - you save Zen,
- you can add specializations to your BOFFs, so they become even more versatile,
- you don't have to keep BOFF-Slots free for training-use,
- you don't need to buy so many Superior Infiltrators/Operatives anymore, since you can use them with different abilities in different BOFF-Stations or on multiple ships - You save a lot of ECs,
- If you own a special BOFF (Zen-Store Borg, Lobi-Store,...) that is untradeable (after unpacking) and you want a special ability (that would require Captains-Training from another character atm.) on it, this is your chance.
-> For each 2 BOFF-Slots that you don't need to buy, you save 250 Zen, converted to Dilithium that might be enough for a 1 or 2 new abilities.
Yes, Dilithium needs to be earned by someone, if you are selling your Dilithium for Zen, then an increased demand means that Dilithium is worth more, if you are buying Dilithium, then you get a little less Dilithium per Zen.
We need to see the final numbers on this revamp, then we can still say:"The game is doomed", but not before that time.
[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
If Star Trek Online was an Open-Source (GPL) Game, we would have a low-grind fork.
Hello World has stepped its game up from my day then.
It's not true. Hello WOrld is still the first thing you learn.
And you don't learn "Search Engines". You learn basic algorithms. Sorting of simple values (e.g. integers), and then searcing in sorted arrays and trees.
But you don't learn how to write a search engine for complex data structures. You may get a bit of this with Databases, but most of that is not the actual implementation, but how to tell a database what item you want.
Once you get your own complex data structures and "entity relationships", you'll have some tools to model them, but to build it all in one awesome superior system of fast accessing and finding...
Well, Google isn't succesful and market leader because Search Engines are easy to make.
Star Trek Online Advancement: You start with lowbie gear, you end with Lobi gear.
You've completely missed the point of what was said.
Your point was that there's a slippery of small monetizations that could build up to be a serious problem. But you missed the fact that its only a compound issue if you decide to let it become one. Plan, show restraint, and look for alternatives where necessary (and such are certainly available).
Bipedal mammal and senior Foundry author.
Notable missions: Apex [AEI], Gemini [SSF], Trident [AEI], Evolution's Smile [SSF], Transcendence
Looking for something new to play? I've started building Foundry missions again in visual novel form!
I for one am glad to see a new dil sink because in the absence of new wings ever being added to our fleets, almost everybody is tier 5 nowadays and the dil rate per zen has been souring for too long now ever since. Around LoR I was enjoying 109 dil per zen. You'd have to grind and save your dil 50% longer today to get the same c store ship you had your eye on now compared to back then.
"As a reminder the Bridge Officer Training system is still under development and is subject to change. We are still testing the system and will be looking for additional feedback from the STO community once released on the Tribble Test Server."
What's this? Cryptic is looking for input? I thought you had become utterly insular...
Well, this thread seems to have some general themes:
(1) We don't want more absurd dil sinks. Cut the TRIBBLE! You are monetizing the game to death.
(2) The players don't trust you to conduct your efforts to our benefit. Except for some scattered white knights, everyone is assuming the worst - about every single detail.
(3) Everyone is sick to death about Orangeitis's personal personality issues and would like to move on to something more productive.
There's your input. Can you take these into account, please?
Oh yeah... a good idea, unfortunately at the moment this will add more grinding. Stated the time and resources needed to skill and equiping a toon, I do not know how many people will like to start playing sto.
[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
Playing STO spamming FAW is like playing chess using always the computer's suggested moves
I haven't heard anyone justify - even in their own minds - the adding of a Dilithium cost to this new system.
It doesn't cost Cryptic anything at all for me to give my bridge officer a new skill. Why do they want cash for it?
Actually someone did post that. What do you expect to drive the value of the manuals on the exchange? If people could mass-produce them for 250 expertise each then they'd have no resale value.
If it was only a small amount of dilithium there'd be no reason for them to want that small amount of dilithium. Think about it, why would they want 200 dil per item? It wouldn't be worth it.
What's the smallest dil cost in the game? I'll give you a hint, less than 1000.
If people could mass-produce them for 250 expertise each then they'd have no resale value.
Why do they need a resale value? If they were mass produced with just the uncommon materials and put on the exchange for 100 EC each, how would that hurt anyone?
This is starting to remind me of the KDF. Circular fail logic.
Add monetization. Some people leave because of this. Others blindly throw money at it. A few tolerate it.
Add more monetization. More leave because of this. Some blindly throw money at it. A few grudgingly tolerate it.
Add more monetization. Even more leave because of it. Some blindly throw money at it. A few complain, and barely tolerate it.
More monetization---makes some people leave, which means they need---more monetization---makes some people leave, which means they need---more monetization....
Except I don't accept the premise that people leave because of monetization. I think people complain about it, and I think people make ridiculous pronouncements about it, and I think people attempt to rationalize their (essentially selfish) belief that they are "owed" all of the shiny cool things in the game right away for free, but I don't think that there is any significant problem with monetization actually driving people away. I think what drives people away is simply being bored. If there is nothing meaningful to do in the game, people quit - it's that simple.
To combat that, Cryptic needs to roll out new content, but to roll out new content, Cryptic needs to have a way to recoup those costs. Thus, they need to demonstrate that the new content they create will increase revenue, or else from a business perspective it's not worth doing. Even if you were right, and monetization was driving people away, it should be obvious that a lack of new content and things to do does the same thing, right? And new content costs money, right? So, what are we to do?
Interestingly, you've used both of the primary responses posters seem to have to the cognitive dissonance between "I want more content" and "I hate paying money". I say interestingly, because if you bothered to think about them, you would realize they are mutually exclusive, yet so many spout them off together as if they were gospel truth. Sigh.
The first response is the "They are already making enough money, so it's greedy for them to take more..." you used at the start of your post. First, you have to realize that on face, for a publicly traded company, there can never be such a thing as "making enough money". As long as stock holders are involved, they have a right to seek maximum returns on their money, which means PWE (and by extension Cryptic) legally have no right to say "You know what, we're good - we don't need to make more money now". You might hate that system (I personally find it abhorrent), but that is the system as it exists, and if you expect to change it, this is not the place to start.
Moreover, this position overlooks the fact that there has to be some limit to how much free stuff Cryptic can give away, even if they are "making enough money". I contend that we can see that limit pretty well when you consider the stuff Cryptic does do for free - like the winter/anniversary/summer events. There's a lot of work that goes into those events, even considering the recycled content from previous years, and while there's the potential monetary hook of buying tokens with Lobi, that method is so clearly inefficient that its obvious that their intent has always been for people to get the stuff the "right way" by participating in the event. You might not like that free content - that's fine. Maybe there is a discussion to be had over whether the free content would be better targeted elsewhere, but at the very least you have to concede that Cryptic does give away (at least) 3 ships a year, with a hypothetical C-store value of 70-80 dollars total. That's not nothing.
Finally, the "they're doing fine, this is just greed" idea is clearly mutually exclusive with the idea that "Monetization is killing the game!". If they are continuing to improve their profit margins (or even simply maintaining the one they have), then it must be false that monetization is killing the game. Likewise, if the game is in trouble and Cryptic is trapped in your vicious cycle of desperate attempts to salvage things, it is manifestly impossible that the game is "earning enough".
Now, you might try to reconcile those two positions by trying to craft a sort of "goldilocks" or "invisible threshold" argument - it would sound something like this:
"Sure, the game is profitable right now, but it's not AS profitable as it could have been if Cryptic wasn't mismanaging it so much, and this is creating a trend where at some point people are just going to throw their hands up and give up!"
That sounds pretty convincing, right? Maybe - but the fact is you lack both the data and the expertise to actually come to that conclusion. You might feel that way all you like, but you should realize that it's far from a proven thing. It's not even particularly likely, unless you buy into the mythology that Cryptic is especially incompetently run (despite the demonstrated fact that the company has three operating games of varying levels of success).
Except I don't accept the premise that people leave because of monetization. I think people complain about it, and I think people make ridiculous pronouncements about it, and I think people attempt to rationalize their (essentially selfish) belief that they are "owed" all of the shiny cool things in the game right away for free, but I don't think that there is any significant problem with monetization actually driving people away. I think what drives people away is simply being bored. If there is nothing meaningful to do in the game, people quit - it's that simple.
Except I don't accept the premise that people leave because of monetization. I think people complain about it, and I think people make ridiculous pronouncements about it, and I think people attempt to rationalize their (essentially selfish) belief that they are "owed" all of the shiny cool things in the game right away for free, but I don't think that there is any significant problem with monetization actually driving people away. I think what drives people away is simply being bored. If there is nothing meaningful to do in the game, people quit - it's that simple.
So...people who left, before playing through the entire new expansion were....bored? That makes zero logical sense. And, there are people who have left due to the "New Direction." I've seen it myself. And those people tend to say nasty things about the game all over the internet.
To combat that, Cryptic needs to roll out new content, but to roll out new content, Cryptic needs to have a way to recoup those costs. Thus, they need to demonstrate that the new content they create will increase revenue, or else from a business perspective it's not worth doing. Even if you were right, and monetization was driving people away, it should be obvious that a lack of new content and things to do does the same thing, right? And new content costs money, right? So, what are we to do?
The problem is, the "content" that is being rolled out isn't really "content." It involves changing systems to add monetization/grind, where before there was none. A timegate is artificial content. A repeatable, boring grind is artificial content. A paygate is artificial content.
I'm not saying it's wrong to have some of this, but, there is a threshold of artificial content that is acceptable to most.
Interestingly, you've used both of the primary responses posters seem to have to the cognitive dissonance between "I want more content" and "I hate paying money". I say interestingly, because if you bothered to think about them, you would realize they are mutually exclusive, yet so many spout them off together as if they were gospel truth. Sigh.
While some may say that, I think the majority are saying that making money is one thing, but attaching it to more and more aspects of the game is becoming tiresome. "Making money" is not the same as "changing every system possible to try and get you to pay."
The first response is the "They are already making enough money, so it's greedy for them to take more..." you used at the start of your post. First, you have to realize that on face, for a publicly traded company, there can never be such a thing as "making enough money". As long as stock holders are involved, they have a right to seek maximum returns on their money, which means PWE (and by extension Cryptic) legally have no right to say "You know what, we're good - we don't need to make more money now". You might hate that system (I personally find it abhorrent), but that is the system as it exists, and if you expect to change it, this is not the place to start.
Moreover, this position overlooks the fact that there has to be some limit to how much free stuff Cryptic can give away, even if they are "making enough money". I contend that we can see that limit pretty well when you consider the stuff Cryptic does do for free - like the winter/anniversary/summer events. There's a lot of work that goes into those events, even considering the recycled content from previous years, and while there's the potential monetary hook of buying tokens with Lobi, that method is so clearly inefficient that its obvious that their intent has always been for people to get the stuff the "right way" by participating in the event. You might not like that free content - that's fine. Maybe there is a discussion to be had over whether the free content would be better targeted elsewhere, but at the very least you have to concede that Cryptic does give away (at least) 3 ships a year, with a hypothetical C-store value of 70-80 dollars total. That's not nothing.
I never once said that they are making enough money. Not once. I said they already have enough WAYS to make money. Completely different.
Finally, the "they're doing fine, this is just greed" idea is clearly mutually exclusive with the idea that "Monetization is killing the game!". If they are continuing to improve their profit margins (or even simply maintaining the one they have), then it must be false that monetization is killing the game. Likewise, if the game is in trouble and Cryptic is trapped in your vicious cycle of desperate attempts to salvage things, it is manifestly impossible that the game is "earning enough".
"Killing the game" is not the same as "Earning more money."
Would this game be far better with 500 people blindly throwing money at anything possible- while it was changed to Nintendo level graphics? It would still be profitable, but it would be a garbage game. And only the blind followers would be playing. Are there even enough of those to completely sustain it?
Now, you might try to reconcile those two positions by trying to craft a sort of "goldilocks" or "invisible threshold" argument - it would sound something like this:
"Sure, the game is profitable right now, but it's not AS profitable as it could have been if Cryptic wasn't mismanaging it so much, and this is creating a trend where at some point people are just going to throw their hands up and give up!"
The thing is, I'm looking at it as a game I would like to play, vs a game that I would not like to play. Can it be monetized without a popup box every 5 seconds asking for dil/zen? If that box existed, would it make it a better game, because they would likely get dil/zen from it?
That sounds pretty convincing, right? Maybe - but the fact is you lack both the data and the expertise to actually come to that conclusion. You might feel that way all you like, but you should realize that it's far from a proven thing. It's not even particularly likely, unless you buy into the mythology that Cryptic is especially incompetently run (despite the demonstrated fact that the company has three operating games of varying levels of success).
And you lack both the data and the expertise to predict how many people are "one more cash grab!" away from packing it up. And having "three operating games of varying levels of success" is no argument for or against anything, other than "they know how to, at least at a rudimentary level, code pixels to represent some kind of video game."
Honestly, all of this sounds like "They're making money, so the game is great!" All that means, is it's great for Cryptic. It has nothing to do with player quality, as there are people with more money than sense, and will just throw it at the screen, given any opportunity.
Problem is, a lot of people want to play a game that's fun, not just a game that is successful at grabbing money.
It's true that I can't "prove" my belief that it's content (or lack thereof) that drives the loss of players, but I'm not really trying to, so I don't really understand what your point is. I'm saying that the narrative being told about how this is all a big greedy terrible disaster is not the only possible narrative, and that on balance other narratives make as least as much (if not more) sense. Thus, it is illogical to jump to the worst possible conclusions at every step when there are much more reasonable alternatives.
Put another way - if the best substantive response to "What you are saying about the economics of the game isn't necessarily true, nor even necessarily likely" is "Well, you can't prove your opinions either", then I've already won my point that these opinions are subjective, irrational, and pointless - and that choosing to get outraged over them is not only a choice, but a poor choice at that.
As long as it doesn't "wipe the slate clean" with bridge officers, and forces me to grind to get those abilities back, I won't raise a fuss. In other words, the new system relates to training for new skills, and that alone.
Call me cautiously optimistic. Although I do expect "technical" issues when it goes live on Holodeck.
So...people who left, before playing through the entire new expansion were....bored? That makes zero logical sense. And, there are people who have left due to the "New Direction." I've seen it myself. And those people tend to say nasty things about the game all over the internet.
Again, this is YOUR experience, not mine. Most of the people I know who have left have done so during the "droughts" between major releases - and some of those people only come back for the events or major patches. My fleet has actually seen an uptick in activity since before DR, so certainly your experience is not the only possible one.
And I agree that people will spread around their angry rants, but that doesn't mean those rants are actually harmful to the game.
The problem is, the "content" that is being rolled out isn't really "content." It involves changing systems to add monetization/grind, where before there was none. A timegate is artificial content. A repeatable, boring grind is artificial content. A paygate is artificial content.
Funtastic fact - some people actually enjoy finding the hooks and efficiencies within new systems - it's not artificial content at all. For me, the intellectual challenge of figuring out how to maximize my gains from the new systems is the primary draw of the entire game. You probably don't feel the same way, but that doesn't mean that the new content simply doesn't count as content - nor does your disdain for it mean that it was somehow "cheap" or a "cop-out" that doesn't incur costs that need to be recouped.
I'm not saying it's wrong to have some of this, but, there is a threshold of artificial content that is acceptable to most.
A threshold that neither you nor I are remotely qualified to judge. The difference is, I'm not trying to, while you are continuing to insist that in the absence of evidence you should make up whatever narrative best rationalizes your feelings, instead of asking if there is any reason for you to feel upset in the first place.
While some may say that, I think the majority are saying that making money is one thing, but attaching it to more and more aspects of the game is becoming tiresome. "Making money" is not the same as "changing every system possible to try and get you to pay."
"Some may say that"? You. You are saying that. Again - literally, legally, publicly traded companies don't really have a right to NOT try to maximize profits in any way they can. It's a TRIBBLE system probably, but it's also the fundamental basis of modern capitalism, and expecting Cryptic to buck the trend because you don't like being asked to pay more than you want to give for the things you want to have doesn't make much sense.
I never once said that they are making enough money. Not once. I said they already have enough WAYS to make money. Completely different.
I see - so they have enough ways to make money, but somehow they aren't making enough money. That actually doesn't make more sense, you realize that. Fundamentally, your argument has to devolve to what I said it would at the end of my last post - you have to assert some kind of goldilocks scenario that you frankly have no business pretending to have evidence to support.
"Killing the game" is not the same as "Earning more money."
Would this game be far better with 500 people blindly throwing money at anything possible- while it was changed to Nintendo level graphics? It would still be profitable, but it would be a garbage game. And only the blind followers would be playing. Are there even enough of those to completely sustain it?
The thing is, I'm looking at it as a game I would like to play, vs a game that I would not like to play. Can it be monetized without a popup box every 5 seconds asking for dil/zen? If that box existed, would it make it a better game, because they would likely get dil/zen from it?
And you lack both the data and the expertise to predict how many people are "one more cash grab!" away from packing it up. And having "three operating games of varying levels of success" is no argument for or against anything, other than "they know how to, at least at a rudimentary level, code pixels to represent some kind of video game."
Honestly, all of this sounds like "They're making money, so the game is great!" All that means, is it's great for Cryptic. It has nothing to do with player quality, as there are people with more money than sense, and will just throw it at the screen, given any opportunity.
Problem is, a lot of people want to play a game that's fun, not just a game that is successful at grabbing money.
First, you are right - neither of us has any basis for grand pronouncements about the state of the game. This is, at best, not a reason why you are right - it is only ever a reason why we are both wrong. I'm fine with that, because I'm not really interested in asserting a particular narrative so much as I am in attempting to silence the pernicious one you are spreading.
Second, again, your position about who whats what from the game, and what "quality" actually means is entirely specious, and even self defeating. If Cryptic can support the game from the people who aren't bothered by the things that bother you, and if the judge the gain from doing so to be greater than the potential lost by you spending less/not playing, why shouldn't they do that? They are under no moral obligation to provide you (or anyone else) their ideal game experience. They are under an obligation to seek to maximize profits for shareholders. If this works (and neither of us has any evidence to suggest it does or doesn't, remember), then that's all that matters. If that concept makes you mad, I suggest you go cheerlead for PWE to go back private and hope that the private ownership refocuses the company in a way you like more.
The fuss is actually about it wiping the slate clean and starting over. It's about having a new zen cost and dilithium cost for skills you might have otherwise had access to without having to respec multple times to "unlock" them, it's about yet another dilithium sink when there's entirely too many already. That's what the fuss is about. Quit spending money on it and quit being apologists about it otherwise this game will go the way of Archeage, poor and illfated.
Call me when they do fix it, I'll be in my Garrison in Draenor.
After a STF if your ships hull takes damage you have to spend Dilithium to repair it at the shipyard and the ship is out of action for days
So the player has to use another ship for those days.......he buys another ship
Then its damaged and out of action for a few days....... He needs another ship !
make all weapons consoles deteroiate over time requiring dilithium to maintain them
Having higher dps than normal should put more strain on equipment and cause weapons to need more maintiance and risk burnout even !
Characters get wounded and need to spend a few days in the medical ward...For a slight dilithium fee
And where is the docking fee for ESD at ... I mean like really all those alien ships should be paying out the nose to dock at esd
As Count Douku said
shurley you can do better
Jellico....Engineer ground.....Da'val Romulan space Sci
Saphire.. Science ground......Ko'el Romulan space Tac
Leva........Tactical ground.....Koj Romulan space Eng
JJ-Verse will never be Canon or considered Lore...It will always be JJ-Verse
The fuss is actually about it wiping the slate clean and starting over. It's about having a new zen cost and dilithium cost for skills you might have otherwise had access to without having to respec multple times to "unlock" them
*snip*,
I think the fuss is a lot about not knowing or understanding enough about how the system will actually work, and only seeing the negatives.
I don't know why you suddenly bring up needing to respec for something here.
The new system will allow people to give their BOFFs alll the BOFF related skills they could possibly know. You no longer need to hold several BOFFs for the same position just because you want a few particular powers swapped around or changed to another. (But you can still do that).
The new system will allow us to unlock Intel (and other Specializations) abilities on BOFFs that didn't orginally have that power.
The new system will allow us to trade powers between players, without needing to reserve empty BOFF slots. I still often hear in my fleet chats a question like "Can someone here train EPtW3?" - this question is no longer needed, you just head to the Exchange or the fleet inventory and can get what you want.
Some of that will cost Dilithium, but most of it will not, and most of what we could already easily do doesn't, and some of the features that make handling BOFF and BOFF abilities itself could turn out to be much more convenient and still cheap to do.
The only thing missing really is the ability to retrait BOFFs!
Star Trek Online Advancement: You start with lowbie gear, you end with Lobi gear.
Again, this is YOUR experience, not mine. Most of the people I know who have left have done so during the "droughts" between major releases - and some of those people only come back for the events or major patches. My fleet has actually seen an uptick in activity since before DR, so certainly your experience is not the only possible one.
I'm not basing it solely on my experience, but common sense. If someone leaves the game, after not completing the new content, it is ridiculous to assume it is because of boredom.
Many people left very shortly after Delta Rising. Many explained why, on these very forums, and have not been heard from since.
I'm not sure where you're getting your logic from.
And I agree that people will spread around their angry rants, but that doesn't mean those rants are actually harmful to the game.
Funtastic fact - some people actually enjoy finding the hooks and efficiencies within new systems - it's not artificial content at all. For me, the intellectual challenge of figuring out how to maximize my gains from the new systems is the primary draw of the entire game. You probably don't feel the same way, but that doesn't mean that the new content simply doesn't count as content - nor does your disdain for it mean that it was somehow "cheap" or a "cop-out" that doesn't incur costs that need to be recouped.
There are systems known in the gaming industry to be, as you put it, "cheap" or a "cop-out."
One of these things is putting in excessive travel time, to try and stretch out weak content. Another is a time gate. Another is a pay gate. Another is a repeatable grind to unlock something. This is not something I am fabricating. Read reviews of some games, or google "lazy game content."
I'm not even calling it lazy...but I will not call it "content."
Spending developer time to monetize a working system- to pay for developer time to monetize a working system. Brilliant.
A threshold that neither you nor I are remotely qualified to judge. The difference is, I'm not trying to, while you are continuing to insist that in the absence of evidence you should make up whatever narrative best rationalizes your feelings, instead of asking if there is any reason for you to feel upset in the first place.
I am absolutely qualified to judge any threshold of tolerance I have for anything. And there is a generally accepted threshold for garbage content, which can be seen on any game review. If something is excessively grindy, it doesn't take long for people to let it be known. Again, use Google. Type in "Star Trek Online +grind" and look at the results.
And I have evidence, you just choose to dismiss it. My feelings are irrelevant, since I've no problem playing something else. I'm just making my concerns known, which I believe I have a right to do.
"Some may say that"? You. You are saying that. Again - literally, legally, publicly traded companies don't really have a right to NOT try to maximize profits in any way they can. It's a TRIBBLE system probably, but it's also the fundamental basis of modern capitalism, and expecting Cryptic to buck the trend because you don't like being asked to pay more than you want to give for the things you want to have doesn't make much sense.
Please show me where, as you seem to like changing what I've said to something that better suits whatever it is you're trying to say.
I see - so they have enough ways to make money, but somehow they aren't making enough money. That actually doesn't make more sense, you realize that. Fundamentally, your argument has to devolve to what I said it would at the end of my last post - you have to assert some kind of goldilocks scenario that you frankly have no business pretending to have evidence to support.
I'm not sure how you are drawing lines in your head to make it seem like I'm saying completely different things.
Should Chevrolet make Viagra? No, I'm pretty sure they have enough ways of making money without doing that. Let's hope they stick to cars because I don't trust a car maker giving old men super happy fun hooker times.
First, you are right - neither of us has any basis for grand pronouncements about the state of the game. This is, at best, not a reason why you are right - it is only ever a reason why we are both wrong. I'm fine with that, because I'm not really interested in asserting a particular narrative so much as I am in attempting to silence the pernicious one you are spreading.
By ignoring common sense, logic, and what I'm actually saying. For one thing, I never once, in any of my posts, EVER, claimed that Cryptic was "killing the game" or "not making enough money." Yet, you write paragraphs detailing how I'm wrong when I say these things. Good job?
I state that people are leaving (of which I have proof), I state that I don't like it (of which I have proof) and I state that this is monetization (which it is). You're talking like I'm running around saying "FFS STOP UR RUINING TEH GAME N IT SUX I QUIT FU CRYPTIC" which I'm clearly not.
Second, again, your position about who whats what from the game, and what "quality" actually means is entirely specious, and even self defeating. If Cryptic can support the game from the people who aren't bothered by the things that bother you, and if the judge the gain from doing so to be greater than the potential lost by you spending less/not playing, why shouldn't they do that? They are under no moral obligation to provide you (or anyone else) their ideal game experience. They are under an obligation to seek to maximize profits for shareholders. If this works (and neither of us has any evidence to suggest it does or doesn't, remember), then that's all that matters. If that concept makes you mad, I suggest you go cheerlead for PWE to go back private and hope that the private ownership refocuses the company in a way you like more.
This entire paragraph is beyond ridiculous. I sincerely hope it's supposed to be a joke. If not, then, um, good for you, Sparky.
Comments
This.
It's still a dilithium sink even if it's a "nickel and dime to death" dilithium sink.
I'm of the opinion that nothing new will go into the game without a dilithium/zen cost attached to it, at this point.
Hello World has stepped its game up from my day then.
Yes, I agree - it does make sense that if Cryptic is going to spend dev time on a new system, they should have a way to recoup those costs. You are right - this is entirely reasonable and a rational thing for them to do.
So... why are you acting like it's a bad thing?
I think they have enough ways to "recoup costs."
This is starting to remind me of the KDF. Circular fail logic.
Add monetization. Some people leave because of this. Others blindly throw money at it. A few tolerate it.
Add more monetization. More leave because of this. Some blindly throw money at it. A few grudgingly tolerate it.
Add more monetization. Even more leave because of it. Some blindly throw money at it. A few complain, and barely tolerate it.
More monetization---makes some people leave, which means they need---more monetization---makes some people leave, which means they need---more monetization....
If monetization is an issue for you then don't craft pads. Simple as that. Even R+D and upgrades don't necessarily incur a dil cost if you work from the exchange for all your gear. It is however nice to spend resources to upgrade and build what you want to. That could work from the stock of some other resources besides dil but it is a handy way of translating playtime to currency that maintains some consistency across a player's experience with the game (see. what 1,000,000 ec means to a fresh 50 on their first playthrough verus a veteran with 10 alts.)
Its an unfortunate byproduct of adding more stuff to the game that you're less able to afford absolutely everything you may want but stating the matter as a problem is missing the point of the game by quite a bit. The status quo of income/expense isn't, by any stetch of the imagination, a concept worth maintaining for a video game (systems and content should evolve).
Notable missions: Apex [AEI], Gemini [SSF], Trident [AEI], Evolution's Smile [SSF], Transcendence
Looking for something new to play? I've started building Foundry missions again in visual novel form!
Guess what, all idea in earning dilithium is for spending it later for something. Real problem which I see with some people here is fact that they want everything right now, instead earn it through time. And this is how good F2P works, have everything for free and "pay" with time, or get what you want right now but deal with fact that it will cost you $.
What is more as it was said here, you wan't have to pay even 1 dilithium if you don't want to. All needed items will be on exchange.
- With more then 1 set of abilities for each Bridge-Officer you need less BOFF-Slots for the same amount of ships/loadouts - you save Zen,
- you can add specializations to your BOFFs, so they become even more versatile,
- you don't have to keep BOFF-Slots free for training-use,
- you don't need to buy so many Superior Infiltrators/Operatives anymore, since you can use them with different abilities in different BOFF-Stations or on multiple ships - You save a lot of ECs,
- If you own a special BOFF (Zen-Store Borg, Lobi-Store,...) that is untradeable (after unpacking) and you want a special ability (that would require Captains-Training from another character atm.) on it, this is your chance.
-> For each 2 BOFF-Slots that you don't need to buy, you save 250 Zen, converted to Dilithium that might be enough for a 1 or 2 new abilities.
Yes, Dilithium needs to be earned by someone, if you are selling your Dilithium for Zen, then an increased demand means that Dilithium is worth more, if you are buying Dilithium, then you get a little less Dilithium per Zen.
We need to see the final numbers on this revamp, then we can still say:"The game is doomed", but not before that time.
If Star Trek Online was an Open-Source (GPL) Game, we would have a low-grind fork.
It's not true. Hello WOrld is still the first thing you learn.
And you don't learn "Search Engines". You learn basic algorithms. Sorting of simple values (e.g. integers), and then searcing in sorted arrays and trees.
But you don't learn how to write a search engine for complex data structures. You may get a bit of this with Databases, but most of that is not the actual implementation, but how to tell a database what item you want.
Once you get your own complex data structures and "entity relationships", you'll have some tools to model them, but to build it all in one awesome superior system of fast accessing and finding...
Well, Google isn't succesful and market leader because Search Engines are easy to make.
Your point was that there's a slippery of small monetizations that could build up to be a serious problem. But you missed the fact that its only a compound issue if you decide to let it become one. Plan, show restraint, and look for alternatives where necessary (and such are certainly available).
Notable missions: Apex [AEI], Gemini [SSF], Trident [AEI], Evolution's Smile [SSF], Transcendence
Looking for something new to play? I've started building Foundry missions again in visual novel form!
What's this? Cryptic is looking for input? I thought you had become utterly insular...
Well, this thread seems to have some general themes:
(1) We don't want more absurd dil sinks. Cut the TRIBBLE! You are monetizing the game to death.
(2) The players don't trust you to conduct your efforts to our benefit. Except for some scattered white knights, everyone is assuming the worst - about every single detail.
(3) Everyone is sick to death about Orangeitis's personal personality issues and would like to move on to something more productive.
There's your input. Can you take these into account, please?
Playing STO spamming FAW is like playing chess using always the computer's suggested moves
My character Tsin'xing
Why do they need a resale value? If they were mass produced with just the uncommon materials and put on the exchange for 100 EC each, how would that hurt anyone?
Free Tibet!
Except I don't accept the premise that people leave because of monetization. I think people complain about it, and I think people make ridiculous pronouncements about it, and I think people attempt to rationalize their (essentially selfish) belief that they are "owed" all of the shiny cool things in the game right away for free, but I don't think that there is any significant problem with monetization actually driving people away. I think what drives people away is simply being bored. If there is nothing meaningful to do in the game, people quit - it's that simple.
To combat that, Cryptic needs to roll out new content, but to roll out new content, Cryptic needs to have a way to recoup those costs. Thus, they need to demonstrate that the new content they create will increase revenue, or else from a business perspective it's not worth doing. Even if you were right, and monetization was driving people away, it should be obvious that a lack of new content and things to do does the same thing, right? And new content costs money, right? So, what are we to do?
Interestingly, you've used both of the primary responses posters seem to have to the cognitive dissonance between "I want more content" and "I hate paying money". I say interestingly, because if you bothered to think about them, you would realize they are mutually exclusive, yet so many spout them off together as if they were gospel truth. Sigh.
The first response is the "They are already making enough money, so it's greedy for them to take more..." you used at the start of your post. First, you have to realize that on face, for a publicly traded company, there can never be such a thing as "making enough money". As long as stock holders are involved, they have a right to seek maximum returns on their money, which means PWE (and by extension Cryptic) legally have no right to say "You know what, we're good - we don't need to make more money now". You might hate that system (I personally find it abhorrent), but that is the system as it exists, and if you expect to change it, this is not the place to start.
Moreover, this position overlooks the fact that there has to be some limit to how much free stuff Cryptic can give away, even if they are "making enough money". I contend that we can see that limit pretty well when you consider the stuff Cryptic does do for free - like the winter/anniversary/summer events. There's a lot of work that goes into those events, even considering the recycled content from previous years, and while there's the potential monetary hook of buying tokens with Lobi, that method is so clearly inefficient that its obvious that their intent has always been for people to get the stuff the "right way" by participating in the event. You might not like that free content - that's fine. Maybe there is a discussion to be had over whether the free content would be better targeted elsewhere, but at the very least you have to concede that Cryptic does give away (at least) 3 ships a year, with a hypothetical C-store value of 70-80 dollars total. That's not nothing.
Finally, the "they're doing fine, this is just greed" idea is clearly mutually exclusive with the idea that "Monetization is killing the game!". If they are continuing to improve their profit margins (or even simply maintaining the one they have), then it must be false that monetization is killing the game. Likewise, if the game is in trouble and Cryptic is trapped in your vicious cycle of desperate attempts to salvage things, it is manifestly impossible that the game is "earning enough".
Now, you might try to reconcile those two positions by trying to craft a sort of "goldilocks" or "invisible threshold" argument - it would sound something like this:
"Sure, the game is profitable right now, but it's not AS profitable as it could have been if Cryptic wasn't mismanaging it so much, and this is creating a trend where at some point people are just going to throw their hands up and give up!"
That sounds pretty convincing, right? Maybe - but the fact is you lack both the data and the expertise to actually come to that conclusion. You might feel that way all you like, but you should realize that it's far from a proven thing. It's not even particularly likely, unless you buy into the mythology that Cryptic is especially incompetently run (despite the demonstrated fact that the company has three operating games of varying levels of success).
I like your assumptions, but...
Just saying.
Free Tibet!
So...people who left, before playing through the entire new expansion were....bored? That makes zero logical sense. And, there are people who have left due to the "New Direction." I've seen it myself. And those people tend to say nasty things about the game all over the internet.
The problem is, the "content" that is being rolled out isn't really "content." It involves changing systems to add monetization/grind, where before there was none. A timegate is artificial content. A repeatable, boring grind is artificial content. A paygate is artificial content.
I'm not saying it's wrong to have some of this, but, there is a threshold of artificial content that is acceptable to most.
While some may say that, I think the majority are saying that making money is one thing, but attaching it to more and more aspects of the game is becoming tiresome. "Making money" is not the same as "changing every system possible to try and get you to pay."
I never once said that they are making enough money. Not once. I said they already have enough WAYS to make money. Completely different.
"Killing the game" is not the same as "Earning more money."
Would this game be far better with 500 people blindly throwing money at anything possible- while it was changed to Nintendo level graphics? It would still be profitable, but it would be a garbage game. And only the blind followers would be playing. Are there even enough of those to completely sustain it?
The thing is, I'm looking at it as a game I would like to play, vs a game that I would not like to play. Can it be monetized without a popup box every 5 seconds asking for dil/zen? If that box existed, would it make it a better game, because they would likely get dil/zen from it?
And you lack both the data and the expertise to predict how many people are "one more cash grab!" away from packing it up. And having "three operating games of varying levels of success" is no argument for or against anything, other than "they know how to, at least at a rudimentary level, code pixels to represent some kind of video game."
Honestly, all of this sounds like "They're making money, so the game is great!" All that means, is it's great for Cryptic. It has nothing to do with player quality, as there are people with more money than sense, and will just throw it at the screen, given any opportunity.
Problem is, a lot of people want to play a game that's fun, not just a game that is successful at grabbing money.
It's true that I can't "prove" my belief that it's content (or lack thereof) that drives the loss of players, but I'm not really trying to, so I don't really understand what your point is. I'm saying that the narrative being told about how this is all a big greedy terrible disaster is not the only possible narrative, and that on balance other narratives make as least as much (if not more) sense. Thus, it is illogical to jump to the worst possible conclusions at every step when there are much more reasonable alternatives.
Put another way - if the best substantive response to "What you are saying about the economics of the game isn't necessarily true, nor even necessarily likely" is "Well, you can't prove your opinions either", then I've already won my point that these opinions are subjective, irrational, and pointless - and that choosing to get outraged over them is not only a choice, but a poor choice at that.
Call me cautiously optimistic. Although I do expect "technical" issues when it goes live on Holodeck.
So long as these Training Manuals stay out of lockboxes and the lobi store, I don't really have a problem.
Again, this is YOUR experience, not mine. Most of the people I know who have left have done so during the "droughts" between major releases - and some of those people only come back for the events or major patches. My fleet has actually seen an uptick in activity since before DR, so certainly your experience is not the only possible one.
And I agree that people will spread around their angry rants, but that doesn't mean those rants are actually harmful to the game.
Funtastic fact - some people actually enjoy finding the hooks and efficiencies within new systems - it's not artificial content at all. For me, the intellectual challenge of figuring out how to maximize my gains from the new systems is the primary draw of the entire game. You probably don't feel the same way, but that doesn't mean that the new content simply doesn't count as content - nor does your disdain for it mean that it was somehow "cheap" or a "cop-out" that doesn't incur costs that need to be recouped.
A threshold that neither you nor I are remotely qualified to judge. The difference is, I'm not trying to, while you are continuing to insist that in the absence of evidence you should make up whatever narrative best rationalizes your feelings, instead of asking if there is any reason for you to feel upset in the first place.
"Some may say that"? You. You are saying that. Again - literally, legally, publicly traded companies don't really have a right to NOT try to maximize profits in any way they can. It's a TRIBBLE system probably, but it's also the fundamental basis of modern capitalism, and expecting Cryptic to buck the trend because you don't like being asked to pay more than you want to give for the things you want to have doesn't make much sense.
I see - so they have enough ways to make money, but somehow they aren't making enough money. That actually doesn't make more sense, you realize that. Fundamentally, your argument has to devolve to what I said it would at the end of my last post - you have to assert some kind of goldilocks scenario that you frankly have no business pretending to have evidence to support.
First, you are right - neither of us has any basis for grand pronouncements about the state of the game. This is, at best, not a reason why you are right - it is only ever a reason why we are both wrong. I'm fine with that, because I'm not really interested in asserting a particular narrative so much as I am in attempting to silence the pernicious one you are spreading.
Second, again, your position about who whats what from the game, and what "quality" actually means is entirely specious, and even self defeating. If Cryptic can support the game from the people who aren't bothered by the things that bother you, and if the judge the gain from doing so to be greater than the potential lost by you spending less/not playing, why shouldn't they do that? They are under no moral obligation to provide you (or anyone else) their ideal game experience. They are under an obligation to seek to maximize profits for shareholders. If this works (and neither of us has any evidence to suggest it does or doesn't, remember), then that's all that matters. If that concept makes you mad, I suggest you go cheerlead for PWE to go back private and hope that the private ownership refocuses the company in a way you like more.
Call me when they do fix it, I'll be in my Garrison in Draenor.
After a STF if your ships hull takes damage you have to spend Dilithium to repair it at the shipyard and the ship is out of action for days
So the player has to use another ship for those days.......he buys another ship
Then its damaged and out of action for a few days....... He needs another ship !
make all weapons consoles deteroiate over time requiring dilithium to maintain them
Having higher dps than normal should put more strain on equipment and cause weapons to need more maintiance and risk burnout even !
Characters get wounded and need to spend a few days in the medical ward...For a slight dilithium fee
And where is the docking fee for ESD at ... I mean like really all those alien ships should be paying out the nose to dock at esd
As Count Douku said
shurley you can do better
Saphire.. Science ground......Ko'el Romulan space Tac
Leva........Tactical ground.....Koj Romulan space Eng
JJ-Verse will never be Canon or considered Lore...It will always be JJ-Verse
I don't know why you suddenly bring up needing to respec for something here.
The new system will allow people to give their BOFFs alll the BOFF related skills they could possibly know. You no longer need to hold several BOFFs for the same position just because you want a few particular powers swapped around or changed to another. (But you can still do that).
The new system will allow us to unlock Intel (and other Specializations) abilities on BOFFs that didn't orginally have that power.
The new system will allow us to trade powers between players, without needing to reserve empty BOFF slots. I still often hear in my fleet chats a question like "Can someone here train EPtW3?" - this question is no longer needed, you just head to the Exchange or the fleet inventory and can get what you want.
Some of that will cost Dilithium, but most of it will not, and most of what we could already easily do doesn't, and some of the features that make handling BOFF and BOFF abilities itself could turn out to be much more convenient and still cheap to do.
The only thing missing really is the ability to retrait BOFFs!
I'm not basing it solely on my experience, but common sense. If someone leaves the game, after not completing the new content, it is ridiculous to assume it is because of boredom.
Many people left very shortly after Delta Rising. Many explained why, on these very forums, and have not been heard from since.
I'm not sure where you're getting your logic from.
There are systems known in the gaming industry to be, as you put it, "cheap" or a "cop-out."
One of these things is putting in excessive travel time, to try and stretch out weak content. Another is a time gate. Another is a pay gate. Another is a repeatable grind to unlock something. This is not something I am fabricating. Read reviews of some games, or google "lazy game content."
I'm not even calling it lazy...but I will not call it "content."
Spending developer time to monetize a working system- to pay for developer time to monetize a working system. Brilliant.
I am absolutely qualified to judge any threshold of tolerance I have for anything. And there is a generally accepted threshold for garbage content, which can be seen on any game review. If something is excessively grindy, it doesn't take long for people to let it be known. Again, use Google. Type in "Star Trek Online +grind" and look at the results.
And I have evidence, you just choose to dismiss it. My feelings are irrelevant, since I've no problem playing something else. I'm just making my concerns known, which I believe I have a right to do.
Please show me where, as you seem to like changing what I've said to something that better suits whatever it is you're trying to say.
I'm not sure how you are drawing lines in your head to make it seem like I'm saying completely different things.
Should Chevrolet make Viagra? No, I'm pretty sure they have enough ways of making money without doing that. Let's hope they stick to cars because I don't trust a car maker giving old men super happy fun hooker times.
By ignoring common sense, logic, and what I'm actually saying. For one thing, I never once, in any of my posts, EVER, claimed that Cryptic was "killing the game" or "not making enough money." Yet, you write paragraphs detailing how I'm wrong when I say these things. Good job?
I state that people are leaving (of which I have proof), I state that I don't like it (of which I have proof) and I state that this is monetization (which it is). You're talking like I'm running around saying "FFS STOP UR RUINING TEH GAME N IT SUX I QUIT FU CRYPTIC" which I'm clearly not.
This entire paragraph is beyond ridiculous. I sincerely hope it's supposed to be a joke. If not, then, um, good for you, Sparky.