Couple of things I forgot to ask, and well - no, I'm not bothering reading any replies so if somebody else asked, cool - my bad - but since the feedback was merged to this thread, it's where I'm going to ask...
The PADD, Training Manual, Specialization Qualification, and Specialization Manuals...will those be able to crit or will they just be one-shots?
Will there be any special DOFFs required for crafting any of them?
how they handle this will be a real indicator if this game can ever be salvaged, and if those behind it have any sense of decency still.
acording to the blog there's no crafting school or RNG or any obvious pay or time gates here. its my hope that they know something as basic as giving your boff skills needs to remain as easy and 'free' as possible, if you cant train skills your just a boat without a paddle in game. look forward to seeing this go up on tribble, so we can feedback the HELL out of things like basic cost.
It would have been easier and more user friendly had they just updated the skill trainer npcs with all the skills, but of course they had to add yet another dilithium sink. Hopefully, the cost isn't as astronomical as the upgrade system. If the cost is kept low enough then I think overall it will be a good change. I have my fingers crossed.
True, they also covered the career skills trainable by Captains. They just left out the skills that were only trainable by another Boff, unless I missed that in the blog.
Geko talked about his desire to monetise boff abilities and sell new ones even back in 2011(?) during a podcast and mentioned that the only thing preventing this at the time was the lack of technology to do it. Now they obviously have implemented the tech and will probably start selling new boff abilities. I wouldn't be surprised if we also see new boff abilites as part of lockboxes, just like traits.
I for one am excited at the prospect of getting Boff versions of the special lock box kit modules. Or Cryo grenade? ooohhhh,,,, WANT!
You never know, I predict since it will take tiem to get all tier III abilities, prices will rise, people will want those abilities, right now boffs are really cheap, so this feels like a low risk high reward operation..
Unless we log in one day with boffs with no skills. That's rather unexpected and probably very doom doomy, but...
Seriously, that's the only way getting boffs now will be thwarted. A) they lose all their skills or you can no longer train a boff with a boff.
I rather expect but if A) happens, I will actually be rather shocked.
Couldn't have said it better myself. The only advantage of the system is that you can now get skills from your other characters easily, the downside is the utterly moronic addition of a Dil cost. EC cost would be fine, but Dil, get your heads out of your TRIBBLE Cryptic. Seems like the smell of TRIBBLE is overpowering your collective sense of logic.
Chris Robert's on SC:
"You don't have to do something again and again and again repetitive that doesn't have much challange, that's just a general good gameplay thing."
It's Cryptic. Revamping stuff that is working just fine and making it worse in the process is what they do.
It would have been a trivial change to remove the issues with the current system regarding captain-trainable abilities and untradeable boffs by simply adding all the relevant abilities to the skill trainers. There was no need to monetise yet another part of the game.
Sure there is a reason pay to win bul****, and pure naked greed. Idoits pay millions to gem system pay to win games on cell phones and cryptic clearly thinks all its players are idiots.
Wow... this thread is huge. We don't even know anything. Parts for omni beams are pretty steep in Dilithium and we are making them. Add up your dilithium for them and it's not free just for the Mk XII without even a consideration of upgrading it yet. You also need a high millions in EC or opening lockboxes or getting damn lucky at 1000 a pop R&D assistance to get the doff and we are still making them.
I doubt that a training book is going to be remotely that high.
LOL This is coming from someone placed in the doom doom camp.
This is ridiculously complicated & completely unnecessary for BOFF training. These options should have just been added to the BOFF trainer officer as dil options.
I may poke at the interface with a stick once or twice, but I highly doubt I'll ever use it. I don't want the skills that badly.
Oh, and if you are going to claim that your insanity is from developer quotes, please actually provide links (or at least the full quote with context).
Well, if he's still going on about the same Copy-Paste that he usually is, it is from a P1 Podcast interview. The transcript I posted a while ago is here.
In case you don't care to follow the link, they expressly say it isn't copy-paste. V's continued insistance that it is points to them being.... well it points to them being things that would break the TOS if I actually accused them of such things.
"Logic is a little tweeting bird chirping in a meadow. Logic is a wreath of pretty flowers which smell BAD." - Spock
I just want to point out a few things to all those Cryptic White Knights Defenders. You know who you are... i don't want to point to anyone.
Was it too difficult to add the new stuff to the old system? You know, without dilithium costs, materials, time gates (craft?)... that the new system brings? Let's say... i go to the boff trainer and buy the skill, not a manual... why the added process? Just to add dilithium costs and timegates (again, crafting)?
The old system wasn't perfect, of course. But if the main problem most people had was finding the right officer with the right skill on Exchange... wouldn't it be better to just improve the Exchange search function?
When Cryptic starts putting OP boff skills into lockboxes... are you going to play the lottery or will you buy the skills at 100M+ EC from Exchange?
As of now i have 10 toons and i can train most of the top tier skills for free just switching toons... and i do it for others for free. In case i can't... well, i can ask in one of the public services channels and usually someone will do it for me pretty fast... and for free. The only "problem" with this system is finding the desired skill on Exchange if it's one of the non-trainable skills and that is easily corrected with an improved search on Exchange, no need to go through all this revamp.
Why can't Cryptic just add the new skills & specializations to the old system and improve the Exchange Search???
With the actual state of the game, with so many people quiting the game and all the rage we see since DR launch, with deserted fleets and dead queues, with all the bugs and lag and server stability issues, do you think it is reasonable to add another dilithium, r&d resources and time sink and expect the people to take it with a smile?
Unfortunately, some of us have a long time experience with STO & Cryptic, probably more than the White Knights. And Cryptic's past record give us all the reasons needed and then some more to complain about this revamp even if it has not been implemented yet.
GREED, that's what all this is about. Cryptic wants more money, there is no reason and no way to justify adding dilithium cost to boff training. The only reason is greed... and the opportunity for cryptic to add OP skills to lockboxes. If you don't want to see it... well, i can't help you and i don't want to, i believe it is clear enough.
If they add all the new skills & specializations to the old system and improve the Exchange Search (it's about time i'd say), i'd be really happy and this thread would be completely different. But they are not doing that exactly, are they?
So what's so great about the new system over my proposal of adding to the old one and improving the Exchange Search???
But, of course, Delta Rising is the best expansion ever and the players love it. Right, that must be "what i'm missing".
All they really had to do was just put everything in the skill trainer, and give us one, actual, improvement without requiring Dil for it. Looks like all they are doing is revamping all of the old systems that still work, just to make them require more Dil.
Sorry to be negative, but this is a lot of extra work that was not needed, just to get players to spend more Dil. All that was needed was to put ALL skills in the skill trainer, and forget about needing skill points in your skill tree.
Why even make STO free to play if they are trying to make our entire time in the game nothing but a grind, or pay? The more they revamp, the less fun there is. Now, the only fun is just spending time with friends, not doing game content.
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All they really had to do was just put everything in the skill trainer, and give us one, actual, improvement without requiring Dil for it. Looks like all they are doing is revamping all of the old systems that still work, just to make them require more Dil.
Sorry to be negative, but this is a lot of extra work that was not needed, just to get players to spend more Dil. All that was needed was to put ALL skills in the skill trainer, and forget about needing skill points in your skill tree.
Why even make STO free to play if they are trying to make our entire time in the game nothing but a grind, or pay? The more they revamp, the less fun there is. Now, the only fun is just spending time with friends, not doing game content.
I completely agree. The last two days i "played" the game... i just chatted and spent the time inviting people to our fleet holdings so they can buy what they need... before cryptic takes away that option too :P
I just want to point out a few things to all those Cryptic White Knights Defenders. You know who you are... i don't want to point to anyone.
Was it too difficult to add the new stuff to the old system? You know, without dilithium costs, materials, time gates (craft?)... that the new system brings? Let's say... i go to the boff trainer and buy the skill, not a manual... why the added process? Just to add dilithium costs and timegates (again, crafting)?
The old system wasn't perfect, of course. But if the main problem most people had was finding the right officer with the right skill on Exchange... wouldn't it be better to just improve the Exchange search function?
When Cryptic starts putting OP boff skills into lockboxes... are you going to play the lottery or will you buy the skills at 100M+ EC from Exchange?
As of now i have 10 toons and i can train most of the top tier skills for free just switching toons... and i do it for others for free. In case i can't... well, i can ask in one of the public services channels and usually someone will do it for me pretty fast... and for free. The only "problem" with this system is finding the desired skill on Exchange if it's one of the non-trainable skills and that is easily corrected with an improved search on Exchange, no need to go through all this revamp.
Why can't Cryptic just add the new skills & specializations to the old system and improve the Exchange Search???
With the actual state of the game, with so many people quiting the game and all the rage we see since DR launch, with deserted fleets and dead queues, with all the bugs and lag and server stability issues, do you think it is reasonable to add another dilithium, r&d resources and time sink and expect the people to take it with a smile?
Unfortunately, some of us have a long time experience with STO & Cryptic, probably more than the White Knights. And Cryptic's past record give us all the reasons needed and then some more to complain about this revamp even if it has not been implemented yet.
GREED, that's what all this is about. Cryptic wants more money, there is no reason and no way to justify adding dilithium cost to boff training. The only reason is greed... and the opportunity for cryptic to add OP skills to lockboxes. If you don't want to see it... well, i can't help you and i don't want to, i believe it is clear enough.
If they add all the new skills & specializations to the old system and improve the Exchange Search (it's about time i'd say), i'd be really happy and this thread would be completely different. But they are not doing that exactly, are they?
So what's so great about the new system over my proposal of adding to the old one and improving the Exchange Search???
But, of course, Delta Rising is the best expansion ever and the players love it. Right, that must be "what i'm missing".
hammer, nail, head
it's all being written down here, clear as day, by people with better communication skills than I
as for white knights saying it won't be that bad, unfortunately the idea of a "micro-transaction" isn't really in the mind of the people making decisions about this game
I don't want to invite any abuse. ;_; I want to get along with everyone...
That's never going to happen...
If it was possible, we would not have goverments, police or military... There is always someone who does not want to join in, and want to force you to see things their way.
Don't look silly... Don't call it the "Z-Store/Zen Store"...
Well, we haven't seen the exact cost yet. What does Cryptic see as a small amount of dilithium? 20? 200? 2,000? 20,000?
But if I see things correctly, one fo the nice things will be that your BOFF will not "unlearn" skills. That means you don't need to own as many BOs as you used to, since you can simply reconfigure your BOFF active skills and keep using the same one. Pick your BOFF with the favorite traits and train him all the skills he need.
Of course, One has to wonder how much that will wreak havoc with loadouts... And how it will affect the BOs on the Exchange and all those BOs still sitting in my Officers Tab...
It's Cryptic. Revamping stuff that is working just fine and making it worse in the process is what they do.
It would have been a trivial change to remove the issues with the current system regarding captain-trainable abilities and untradeable boffs by simply adding all the relevant abilities to the skill trainers. There was no need to monetise yet another part of the game.
They could always give us everything for free and for no effort.
But only until they run out of money.
But the new system is actually easier for us players - because we don't have to run back to the Trainer all the time to retrain skills. We just reslot the skills we already have. NO longer worrying about accidentally deleting a good skill (maybe a skill that only becomes good 2 years later because of a random DOFF ability or whatever). Instead of needing to have always one BO slot free and use the Trade menu and personally meet* people on Bridges and whatever to cross-train BOs - just exchange ability PADDs.
*) Urks... meeting people in an MMO - who'd want that?
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After the experiences I had with DR and a once awesome game I liked with no restrictions I have reach a point where I cant bring much optimism anymore to a new dev blog informing about game changes.
Nevertheless I think one needs to see these changes implemented b4 one can judge it properly.
The good for me:
- Boffs learn skills permanently meaning when I switch to another build I can reselect the skills ad hoc without the need of retrain or to obtain multiple boffs.
The bad for me:
- Unnecessary time gate to cope with in a perhaps overcomplicated and cost intense new system
As far as lock box skills are concerned Im not too much worried. Do I think they use it as money grab? Sure. Do I think I miss much when I dont go for it? No! About a dozen new intel skills in contradiction with good PvE endgame performance made sure of that.
As if they would manage to release something better than tac team, fire at will, attack pattern beta or grav wells
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The new system sounds great and truly is something people proposed and asked for, for quite a while now but there are a few thing that worry me greatly.
First of all the freaking dil cost. Really? REALLY?! Training boffs was one of the few things left we could do without speding dil. Just get it over with and cut EC from the game 'cause by now it has completly lost it's purpose as currency thanks to cryptic's cash grab tactics.
As some others pointed out, the loadout. It barely holds together as it is and now they add another layer of variables that will cause even more errors, bugs and whatnot.
looking at the content that has been released since LoR (not saying
I don't like it!) I feel no need for further changes to my boffs.. I
think I got more than 250 Boffs on all my toons, but most of the
time I play quered pve and a foundry mission once in a while..
for me there is no need to use the new sink..sorry..maybe if
cryptic would come up with single player versions of some of
the queres boffs would become interesting again :rolleyes:
If it was possible, we would not have goverments, police or military... There is always someone who does not want to join in, and want to force you to see things their way.
I'm not white knighting anything. I'm going to reserve my rant for when I see the cost. I find it funny I tossed a fit about crafting prices and was told to go grind and shut up or quit playing a game I don't like but I say at least wait and see here and I am a brown-nosing apologizer. Maybe from now on I will just wait for you to give me my opinion like I wait for Cryptic to tell me what I love and what I find great.
I haven't heard anyone justify - even in their own minds - the adding of a Dilithium cost to this new system.
It doesn't cost Cryptic anything at all for me to give my bridge officer a new skill. Why do they want cash for it?
oooh can i can i?
WOOOO skill training with dilithium! LOVE IT! now how to justify it hmmmmm......
Now they (cryptic) have worked oh so hard on this "NEW" system they have to make a little bit of monies from it? I fully respect this and i applaud them for keeping it to a small amount for all the effort that will have been put into this system.
Thank you Cryptic i will happily pay dil for this revamped system because as a player I LOVE IT!
There was that convincing enough?
Yep the dil sink SUCKS and does not need to be pinned to everything new they create from delta grinding onwards.
I do like the fact that what they consider a "small amount" and what we consider a "small amount" are two completely different things, they consider 1000 dil a small amount as where i consider 100 dil a small amount
I look forward to Geko explaining this on a podcast in the way he explained the upgrade system dil sink, that was entertaining!
we expect people to do a little bit a day but have accounted for those that want it now bla bla bla
First off, your "simple" solution doesn't help the fact that people with multiple ships they like to fly need to have either a lot of BoFFs (with extra slots costing zen) OR they need to constantly retrain the ones they have.
Secondly, your "simple" solution ain't that simple. Adding skills to BoFF trainer is pretty easy I would suspect...but considering how long it took them to just add in a bloody R&D tab, I suspect that the exchange code is a bit of a bear to modify. And that was JUST to add a tab and you want a search option that looks into the details of an item and you think that will be SIMPLE?!? Yeah...no. You seem to be under the rather mistaken impression that the systems in this game were well written and easy to modify instead of rushed together and pushed out to meet a due date.
And you want them to spend dev time with no monetary return. Sure, they could do that...till they run out of money and have to close. Seriously people, this is a COMPANY...not a charity. They don't make money, they close. Hell, they don't make ENOUGH money, they close. In this day and age, you don't have to be just profitable anymore to stay afloat. Trust me, the devs have WAY more vested intested in this game continuing then you do. For you it's just a game after all.
this is no "the company needs money to run" nonsense, operating costs are stripped to the bone, they are covered already
this is "the parent company demands that more profits be siphoned from sto"
and ya, if the profit margin isn't high enough? they shutter it.
but that has nothing to do with losing money, if sto is losing money right now it's because someone is embezzling
Because coding in a new system...one that some of us actually WANT costs THEM money. Sheesh, you all seem to think that cryptic should upgrade and code new thing for free or something.
they already get ample cash from people buying zen/dil for all manner of things
dilthium is 100% leveraged already
didn't you see the sheshar spam? don't you see the lockbox spam?
and when t6 fleet holdings come out, they are going to earn even more cash
Every time you see something being implemented by Cryptic i want you to instead think Perfect World Entertainment , becausce it is PWE who is calling the shots.
This blatant squeeze is just one among many as PWE does it's very best to remove money from you the player to their bank account... making sure that they have to do as little as possible to justify their actions.
Cryptic had a growing community and such a decent game but that is now out of their control as PWE milks it into the ground and once that is completed we will have, nothing.
Comments
how they handle this will be a real indicator if this game can ever be salvaged, and if those behind it have any sense of decency still.
acording to the blog there's no crafting school or RNG or any obvious pay or time gates here. its my hope that they know something as basic as giving your boff skills needs to remain as easy and 'free' as possible, if you cant train skills your just a boat without a paddle in game. look forward to seeing this go up on tribble, so we can feedback the HELL out of things like basic cost.
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There is a vague reference to adding things.....
I for one am excited at the prospect of getting Boff versions of the special lock box kit modules. Or Cryo grenade? ooohhhh,,,, WANT!
My character Tsin'xing
Unless we log in one day with boffs with no skills. That's rather unexpected and probably very doom doomy, but...
Seriously, that's the only way getting boffs now will be thwarted. A) they lose all their skills or
I rather expect
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Couldn't have said it better myself. The only advantage of the system is that you can now get skills from your other characters easily, the downside is the utterly moronic addition of a Dil cost. EC cost would be fine, but Dil, get your heads out of your TRIBBLE Cryptic. Seems like the smell of TRIBBLE is overpowering your collective sense of logic.
"You don't have to do something again and again and again repetitive that doesn't have much challange, that's just a general good gameplay thing."
Sure there is a reason pay to win bul****, and pure naked greed. Idoits pay millions to gem system pay to win games on cell phones and cryptic clearly thinks all its players are idiots.
Your point being?
I doubt that a training book is going to be remotely that high.
LOL This is coming from someone placed in the doom doom camp.
I may poke at the interface with a stick once or twice, but I highly doubt I'll ever use it. I don't want the skills that badly.
In case you don't care to follow the link, they expressly say it isn't copy-paste. V's continued insistance that it is points to them being.... well it points to them being things that would break the TOS if I actually accused them of such things.
Was it too difficult to add the new stuff to the old system? You know, without dilithium costs, materials, time gates (craft?)... that the new system brings? Let's say... i go to the boff trainer and buy the skill, not a manual... why the added process? Just to add dilithium costs and timegates (again, crafting)?
The old system wasn't perfect, of course. But if the main problem most people had was finding the right officer with the right skill on Exchange... wouldn't it be better to just improve the Exchange search function?
When Cryptic starts putting OP boff skills into lockboxes... are you going to play the lottery or will you buy the skills at 100M+ EC from Exchange?
As of now i have 10 toons and i can train most of the top tier skills for free just switching toons... and i do it for others for free. In case i can't... well, i can ask in one of the public services channels and usually someone will do it for me pretty fast... and for free. The only "problem" with this system is finding the desired skill on Exchange if it's one of the non-trainable skills and that is easily corrected with an improved search on Exchange, no need to go through all this revamp.
Why can't Cryptic just add the new skills & specializations to the old system and improve the Exchange Search???
With the actual state of the game, with so many people quiting the game and all the rage we see since DR launch, with deserted fleets and dead queues, with all the bugs and lag and server stability issues, do you think it is reasonable to add another dilithium, r&d resources and time sink and expect the people to take it with a smile?
Unfortunately, some of us have a long time experience with STO & Cryptic, probably more than the White Knights. And Cryptic's past record give us all the reasons needed and then some more to complain about this revamp even if it has not been implemented yet.
GREED, that's what all this is about. Cryptic wants more money, there is no reason and no way to justify adding dilithium cost to boff training. The only reason is greed... and the opportunity for cryptic to add OP skills to lockboxes. If you don't want to see it... well, i can't help you and i don't want to, i believe it is clear enough.
If they add all the new skills & specializations to the old system and improve the Exchange Search (it's about time i'd say), i'd be really happy and this thread would be completely different. But they are not doing that exactly, are they?
So what's so great about the new system over my proposal of adding to the old one and improving the Exchange Search???
But, of course, Delta Rising is the best expansion ever and the players love it. Right, that must be "what i'm missing".
Sorry to be negative, but this is a lot of extra work that was not needed, just to get players to spend more Dil. All that was needed was to put ALL skills in the skill trainer, and forget about needing skill points in your skill tree.
Why even make STO free to play if they are trying to make our entire time in the game nothing but a grind, or pay? The more they revamp, the less fun there is. Now, the only fun is just spending time with friends, not doing game content.
I completely agree. The last two days i "played" the game... i just chatted and spent the time inviting people to our fleet holdings so they can buy what they need... before cryptic takes away that option too :P
hammer, nail, head
it's all being written down here, clear as day, by people with better communication skills than I
as for white knights saying it won't be that bad, unfortunately the idea of a "micro-transaction" isn't really in the mind of the people making decisions about this game
That's never going to happen...
If it was possible, we would not have goverments, police or military... There is always someone who does not want to join in, and want to force you to see things their way.
But if I see things correctly, one fo the nice things will be that your BOFF will not "unlearn" skills. That means you don't need to own as many BOs as you used to, since you can simply reconfigure your BOFF active skills and keep using the same one. Pick your BOFF with the favorite traits and train him all the skills he need.
Of course, One has to wonder how much that will wreak havoc with loadouts... And how it will affect the BOs on the Exchange and all those BOs still sitting in my Officers Tab...
They could always give us everything for free and for no effort.
But only until they run out of money.
But the new system is actually easier for us players - because we don't have to run back to the Trainer all the time to retrain skills. We just reslot the skills we already have. NO longer worrying about accidentally deleting a good skill (maybe a skill that only becomes good 2 years later because of a random DOFF ability or whatever). Instead of needing to have always one BO slot free and use the Trade menu and personally meet* people on Bridges and whatever to cross-train BOs - just exchange ability PADDs.
*) Urks... meeting people in an MMO - who'd want that?
Nevertheless I think one needs to see these changes implemented b4 one can judge it properly.
The good for me:
- Boffs learn skills permanently meaning when I switch to another build I can reselect the skills ad hoc without the need of retrain or to obtain multiple boffs.
The bad for me:
- Unnecessary time gate to cope with in a perhaps overcomplicated and cost intense new system
As far as lock box skills are concerned Im not too much worried. Do I think they use it as money grab? Sure. Do I think I miss much when I dont go for it? No! About a dozen new intel skills in contradiction with good PvE endgame performance made sure of that.
As if they would manage to release something better than tac team, fire at will, attack pattern beta or grav wells
Looking for a fun PvE fleet? Join us at Omega Combat Division today.
First of all the freaking dil cost. Really? REALLY?! Training boffs was one of the few things left we could do without speding dil. Just get it over with and cut EC from the game 'cause by now it has completly lost it's purpose as currency thanks to cryptic's cash grab tactics.
As some others pointed out, the loadout. It barely holds together as it is and now they add another layer of variables that will cause even more errors, bugs and whatnot.
I don't like it!) I feel no need for further changes to my boffs.. I
think I got more than 250 Boffs on all my toons, but most of the
time I play quered pve and a foundry mission once in a while..
for me there is no need to use the new sink..sorry..maybe if
cryptic would come up with single player versions of some of
the queres boffs would become interesting again :rolleyes:
Oh well.
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It doesn't cost Cryptic anything at all for me to give my bridge officer a new skill. Why do they want cash for it?
Free Tibet!
oooh can i can i?
WOOOO skill training with dilithium! LOVE IT! now how to justify it hmmmmm......
Now they (cryptic) have worked oh so hard on this "NEW" system they have to make a little bit of monies from it? I fully respect this and i applaud them for keeping it to a small amount for all the effort that will have been put into this system.
Thank you Cryptic i will happily pay dil for this revamped system because as a player I LOVE IT!
There was that convincing enough?
Yep the dil sink SUCKS and does not need to be pinned to everything new they create from delta grinding onwards.
I do like the fact that what they consider a "small amount" and what we consider a "small amount" are two completely different things, they consider 1000 dil a small amount as where i consider 100 dil a small amount
I look forward to Geko explaining this on a podcast in the way he explained the upgrade system dil sink, that was entertaining!
we expect people to do a little bit a day but have accounted for those that want it now bla bla bla
Still though we could be playing a Korean mmo
apparently, we are :-/
this is no "the company needs money to run" nonsense, operating costs are stripped to the bone, they are covered already
this is "the parent company demands that more profits be siphoned from sto"
and ya, if the profit margin isn't high enough? they shutter it.
but that has nothing to do with losing money, if sto is losing money right now it's because someone is embezzling
they already get ample cash from people buying zen/dil for all manner of things
dilthium is 100% leveraged already
didn't you see the sheshar spam? don't you see the lockbox spam?
and when t6 fleet holdings come out, they are going to earn even more cash
This blatant squeeze is just one among many as PWE does it's very best to remove money from you the player to their bank account... making sure that they have to do as little as possible to justify their actions.
Cryptic had a growing community and such a decent game but that is now out of their control as PWE milks it into the ground and once that is completed we will have, nothing.