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Why Doesn't Anyone in PUGs do Heals?

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  • futurepastnowfuturepastnow Member Posts: 3,660 Arc User
    edited November 2014
    I heal up a storm in Crystalline Catastrophe, which outside of the MI event is basically the only thing I'm willing to pug. Of course, there's a reason for that healing.
  • breadandcircusesbreadandcircuses Member Posts: 2,355 Arc User
    edited November 2014
    I tend to pug almost exclusively. Then they diminished the queue rewards. Increased hitpoints made the missions take longer, while added timers made it necessary to run them quickly. Mandatory optionals made for both a contradiction in terms and pug insta-fails. All in all... the queues weren't fun or worthwhile, much less both. That means there are probably less folks bothering. I tend to provide cross-healing when I'm in a team-based mission, for example, but I don't bother with the queues that much anymore... which means that I'm probably not cross-healing you, right?

    At the same time, PvP imbalances have been exacerbated by the Upgrade System, vertical over-level progression, and new mechanics. That has led to some PvPers wandering off to greener pastures and others creating the player-driven VPvP movement; the former means they aren't here at all, and the latter means they have to grind less to get into the fight. This means that there are less PvPers stuck wandering the queues just so that they can do what they really want... fight each other. PvP is where many players pick up habits like cross-healing. Sure, a PvP premade may have folks built as pure-DPS or a pure-healer.. but those that learned PvP in the queues or those that have played more than one role are far more likely to understand the value of keeping teammates alive and helpful.

    So yeah, if you want cross-healing, it's more of a gamble these days that it ever was before.

    Actually... exactly how did you rebuild your Akira? I mean everything, use the Skill Planner and list your doffs in the Notes. That alone could be a more useful frame of reference than most anything else... after all, you have a captain with offensive innate abilities, a ship that unlocks offensive Mastery bonuses, and seating that favors offensive powers. Have you done anything to introduce healing or defensive bonuses to that mix? Is it possible that they are watching you drop ridiculously fast and assume you are the weak link when in fact you are simply built for damage?

    Need more relevant info.
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  • daqheghdaqhegh Member Posts: 1,490 Arc User
    edited November 2014
    woodwhity wrote: »
    You proved with your post that playing time isnt proportional to game knowledge. Just because you are a "veteran" doesnt mean you know mechanics. And in your post were some misinformations. You might think you know much, but in the end by reading your post it becomes obvious you dont.

    I preordered my lifetime sub in BETA. And you think "Veterans" don't know the mechanics of this game? It isn't like the actual game mechanics have changed much since launch. Come on, man.
    My Old Blog about things that could and should have been added when I wrote it. Not sure what I want to do with it now. I'll just keep it available now that most of it is outdated.
  • pwecangetlostpwecangetlost Member Posts: 538 Arc User
    edited November 2014
    Even with heavy healing I draw aggro and just end up having to heal myself. Why aren't the tacs pulling aggro in PUGs? Oh wait, I'm out doing their damage with my grav wells. :rolleyes:
  • woodwhitywoodwhity Member Posts: 2,636 Arc User
    edited November 2014
    daqhegh wrote: »
    I preordered my lifetime sub in BETA. And you think "Veterans" don't know the mechanics of this game? It isn't like the actual game mechanics have changed much since launch. Come on, man.

    That makes it only more amusing (or disappointing, depending on pov). Fact is, that time playing doesnt mean anything about how much knowledge one gained from it. One can learn more in one month than others in four years.
    I didnt say all veterans dont know them, but there is a not so little part of this playergroup who neglected to learn a bit while playing.
  • skyranger1414skyranger1414 Member Posts: 1,785 Arc User
    edited November 2014
    Its funny to think about, but quite often my escorts end up healing other people´s cruisers. That should never happen lol.
  • hyperionx09hyperionx09 Member Posts: 1,709 Arc User
    edited November 2014
    I always thought it was supposed to be the Engs that do the tanking and healing, with Sci debuffing and support healing.

    However, I find it's better to just rely solely on yourself in most PUGs. Even if it means sacrificing a console or two for some defensive capability. Granted, Feds can almost tank with impunity thanks to the Guardian, Eclipse, Dauntless, and Pathfinder Mastery traits (with Dauntless being the easiest to drop in favor of the Phantom trait).

    Still, if you choose to go full DPS, don't expect heals.
  • odisseusrhodisseusrh Member Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited November 2014
    depending on the character I am on, if its my trill or my Vulcans I have enough survivability abilities that yea if a teammate is near me and dying I will throw out heals to them. Hell I have a kit for my sci op that is solely for healing so if I run into a ground PvE and there arnt really any healing abilities on the team ill put on that kit and go.
  • giveroffacialsgiveroffacials Member Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited November 2014
    leemwatson wrote: »
    Okay, I know this is going to generate flack, but what the hell. I'm a Sci and I can hold my own aggro'ing ships and being able to heal and kill at the same time. What I don't appreciate is the comment I got yesterday of 'fkin low DPS'er!' whilst in Hive Onslaught ADV. I mean come on! Everyone knows that to do the Borg missions YOU NEED A SCI! I keep my privacy set so people can't see my builds, but basically it's alot of BFW, TSpread, Grav Wells, on top of alot of AoE damage abilities! What also gets my goat is that these 'Parsers' are so inaccurate. I can get place regularly 3rd place upward in CE Adv in an Intrepid or Mobius Sci for God' sake and even proven a 'Parser' wrong when they claimed they had 1st place according to their 'Parser', when I actually had it!

    But I digress. I'll heal if I'm not inundated with holding back aload of spheres or picking up aggro myself. What I won't do is heal an Uber-DPS nut that decides everyone should be following him as he has highest DPS and believe me, one guy actually said that. I've been in a few where these guys wreck the mission because of their own over-inflated realisation of self-importance. What Uber-DPS guys have to realise is that Sci and Eng Captains actually have to use tactics rather than try to kill something in 1 shot. The NPC ship update, which I really like as it's now a really good scrap, makes tactics far more important, although Cryptic are caving to make things too easy and too quick again (especially levelling).

    I also think a major redesign is needed on all ships to include proper weapon arcs and realisitic weapon loadouts as in 'SFC'! The power drain in this game is superficial also and needs to be properly representative when someone is firing all their 8 Beams/Cannons. In SFC that would be a MASSIVE drain.

    In all. All you guys that think us Sci's are a waste of space in this game just remember this, we are the magicians that make things easier for you, not the other way around. If I can kill off Borg Cubes and Tac cubes in area RA's and almost kill off the gunship without getting killed once in a Sci Vessel (and I'm talking SOLO), then just imagine what havoc a skilled Sci Captain is causing in STF's!

    Hey, I agree with you. In my opinion a ship that can't defend itself can't really attack either.
    Space the final frontier. These are the voyages of [your name here] on a five year mission to gain one level after the delta rising xp nerf.
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  • sennahcheribsennahcherib Member Posts: 2,823 Arc User
    edited November 2014
    my fed sci captain WAS a healer; but with DR and the need of dps; now she uses the avenger or the nebula but with a dps build (even if i don't like that). Because in infected the conduit advanced (for example), this is "kill or die" and when you have 3 or 4 spheres on your back; this is almost impossible to help others. + when she was still a healer; never she have had a thank you (or ty, thx etc).
  • battykoda0battykoda0 Member Posts: 959 Arc User
    edited November 2014
    I can't even begin to count the number of times as a sci that I have "taken one for the team" and gone down in a fireball because I used my last CD to heal the tank or the highest dps - which I am neither of - rather than myself. This is in pugs and premades.

    It's a different subject matter but the same holds true with getting aggro from CC. I have died just as much stopping the nanite spheres and gaining massive aggro without outside heals helping me and, at times, respawned and rushed back to die again extending that CC.

    There is a quote from a movie, I don't know which, but it goes, "What the hell were thinking, doc? You're the medic! Who's going to take care of you if you get hit?"
    Wow. There is a new KDF Science ship. I'll be!
  • rerednawrerednaw Member Posts: 159 Arc User
    edited November 2014
    battykoda0 wrote: »
    I can't even begin to count the number of times as a sci that I have "taken one for the team" and gone down in a fireball because I used my last CD to heal the tank or the highest dps - which I am neither of - rather than myself. This is in pugs and premades.

    It's a different subject matter but the same holds true with getting aggro from CC. I have died just as much stopping the nanite spheres and gaining massive aggro without outside heals helping me and, at times, respawned and rushed back to die again extending that CC.

    There is a quote from a movie, I don't know which, but it goes, "What the hell were thinking, doc? You're the medic! Who's going to take care of you if you get hit?"
    THIS^

    Regardless of whether I play Eng, Sci or Tac, I try to step in when I see a teammate in trouble.
    Even though what usually ends up happening is all the aggro gets transferred to me, the guy I healed runs away and I get to stare at the respawn timer for my trouble.

    I think really part of the issue is the jump in difficulty from PvE story missions to Advanced or Elite STFs. It's not even close. In PvE you can go in and fast-forward through all the briefings, not even read any walkthroughs, ad-lib and you'll succeed. In a STF that is the recipe for fail.

    I mean the majority of the PUGs I do in STFs don't even read the mission progress. If it says "Borg saved 0/15" and the entire team is just shooting...being healed is the least of your worries. I actually focus on mission goals and it gets me shouted down as a noob for not making top of the damage meters.

    It doesn't upset me, I just queue up for another STF...eventually I get on a decent PUG...the ways the STFs are set up, if about half the team knows what they are doing you'll get by. Well maybe not for Elite. :D

    I do wish though that STFs were more set up so that other classes could actually succeed in the missions without needing raw DPS. Even if you are the best healer and the best tank...you still need DPS in the end to win.
  • starfish1701starfish1701 Member Posts: 782 Arc User
    edited November 2014
    I use heals on my PUG in every match, both shield and hull heals.

    I'm not in a high DPS ship so I consider it to be a contribution that somewhat makes up for my lack of firepower.
  • neoakiraiineoakiraii Member Posts: 7,468 Arc User
    edited November 2014
    Give me money, and I'll heal you :D
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  • lored2deathlored2death Member Posts: 6 Arc User
    edited November 2014
    I heal with my KDF sci all the time as a method of play in pugs. Well, I did. When I pugged. before DR.
  • olivia211olivia211 Member Posts: 675 Arc User
    edited November 2014
    I do a ton of heals. In fact I would say my numbers account of probably 30-50% heals and the rest damage. A lot of my builds a re support / balance though so I am sure not many people play the way I do. It seems people are all about burst damage. I am not discounting damage. Obviously you need to deal it, but if you keep blowing up, all that damage means nothing.
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  • gardatgardat Member Posts: 280 Arc User
    edited November 2014
    In STFs you are expected to be able to manage both DPS and self-healing.

    If you are unable to keep yourself alive while doing reasonable damage then basically either your build or your play style is to blame. It's not really a gear thing, but it does help.
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  • donowickdonowick Member Posts: 269 Arc User
    edited November 2014
    Lets just say yes tac is great for dps but if he doesn't work on his defense in space is a waste to me. The eng and sci are not there to follow tac around and heal them because they are not smart enough to have decent defense. If you have a low defense don't tank it is simple. If I'm in a ship that has a low defense I do not tank at all. I do hit and runs seeing I know I won't last long if they start pounding me. The normal team should consist a eng, sci, and around 3 tac's in escorts. The tac's escort (hense the name of ship) group in and get the enemies attention (agro)and the rest hit enemy as hard as they can to take it out and heal tac if he needs it. But if that tac is not near group when he needs help it is his fault not the other players.

    The tac in escort has great burst dps but most cruisers and sci ships don't do burst dps they do constant dps. They are different in that one hits target in burst and the other constant. Cannons do burst dps and beams constant dps. The idea of a team is them working together and yes heal each other if they can but you should not depend on them to heal you to stay alive in battle. If you can't keep yourself alive. How do you think they can do that for you. To me your letting the team down. :)

    Had posted this in wrong post oops lol
  • priestofsin420priestofsin420 Member Posts: 419
    edited November 2014
    My science officer has conferred with both his past and future self, and has determined that it is not, nor has it ever been, nor will it ever be his job to heal you. If he can take care of himself in an STF and still dish out the DPS, then perhaps you should move to a build that can withstand more than a strong breeze when you get aggro.

    Seriously though, it's a pain to heal people in STO for some reason.
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  • tehbubbalootehbubbaloo Member Posts: 2,003 Arc User
    edited November 2014
    i think you may be shocked at the number of people playing that have no idea you can actually cast heals and the like. and how would they know? there is nothing in place to teach them.
    in the pve episodes where you are told revive somebody, so you use your cpr skill on them? no, you click a 'revive teammate' button that appears when you are near the teammate... a button that you never use outside the episode. its the same case for ship repair. you fly to a ship and click some one off button rather than a HE or ET or whatnot. its a complete wasted opportunity to teach people, but hey. its cryptic.
  • ghyudtghyudt Member Posts: 1,112 Arc User
    edited November 2014
    Most players are only interested in max dps. They couldn't care less about tank/heal setups. They leave their teammates to fend for themselves. Me, I like being the shield for my team. But i'm still only one ship. I can keep maybe 2 teammates alive, one if they have heavy agro on them. But there's only so much I can do. You heavy hitters need to understand that you need to have your own heals available as well, especially for when mine are on cooldown.
  • woodwhitywoodwhity Member Posts: 2,636 Arc User
    edited November 2014
    ghyudt wrote: »
    Most players are only interested in max dps. .

    Most players dont know what dps is. Unfortuanetly they also neither know of CC, heal or tanking.
  • littlesarbonnlittlesarbonn Member Posts: 486 Arc User
    edited November 2014
    To be honest, I think it has a lot more to do with how the developers have set up the way that someone would "heal" in space. It's really dystfunctional. I say this as someone who has tried to act as a "healer" in fights, and at some point I got so frustrated trying to do it that I just stopped trying. There are a couple of reasons I can think of right off the top of my head:

    1. They never created an easy way to target someone who needs heals while you're in the middle of a fight. Yeah, you can click that person on the team list, but then whatever you're fighting you completely stop fighting, and quite often it's hard to get back to fighting what you were fighting before as the targeting chooses whatever is closest rather than go right back to the thing you were shooting at earlier. Other times, it works great. Because it's not consistent, it's pretty crappy trying to keep up with it at the same time trying to keep someone alive.

    2. Healing abilities work on a cool down that is extremely crappy for continuous healing. You basically heal once (or twice if you have something else slotted like a shield heal and then a hull heal). Then you're basically out of the fight for an abusive amount of time until you can heal again. So then you're back to trying to shoot at something, and then have to target that individual that needed healing while still trying to maintain a dps rate on whatever you're fighting. Most people would give up here and never heal anyone again, except for a more random sort of thing.

    3. The healing range is way too short. I can't tell you how many times I tried to heal someone only to have that person slip out of range while I'm in the process of trying to heal him. You end up just giving up, as it's really hard to watch the entire team's hull bars, shield activity and also their range, AS WELL AS participate in a fight with other ships all over the screen.

    How could they fix this (which they won't)? Set up an alternative interface for healers that allows you to heal while maintaining your original target, like practically every other MMO out there does. That would increase the amount of healers MASSIVELY. Increase the range of healing. That would help. Make it a lot easier to heal people who aren't in your group because quite a few PUGs involve groups of ships fighting together but then doesn't actually group them, meaning you have to alternatively pay even more attention to people who are never on your group screen. Yes, I'm looking at you Crystalline Cataclysm with your ten people raid and only five people in your group scenario.

    The point is: I've always played a healer in games I've played. It's too frustrating to do it in this game, so I gave up. Basically, you lost a dedicated healer because you made the interface stupid if you're a healer. So how likely do you think people who don't normally heal are going to end up suddenly adopting healing paradigms?
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  • alex284alex284 Member Posts: 366 Arc User
    edited November 2014
    I can't get people to spread out in pugs of borg disconnected; instead they always seem to pile onto 1 area so we're divided 0/1/4.

    I can't get people to save romulans in mine trap, so usually only 2 zones have any roms to save after the "protect the houses" phase.

    I can't get people to do tractor beams in azure advanced pugs, so it's now a super-fast queue, done in 3 minutes!

    And No Win Scenario in a pug? Good luck getting to wave 5.

    People in pugs generally have no idea how to play. Join a fleet or the publicstf channel. Even if those people are clueless (or just assume that you have your own heals since these people dont' know your build), you can talk to them about healing before the start of the mission and tell them to keep their team channel open.

    And, personally, I don't heal in pugs even if I have extra heals. I've tried, and people run away from them. There's no point. Pugging is an exercise in the futility of trying to accomplish anything at all.
  • littlesarbonnlittlesarbonn Member Posts: 486 Arc User
    edited November 2014
    alex284 wrote: »
    I can't get people to spread out in pugs of borg disconnected; instead they always seem to pile onto 1 area so we're divided 0/1/4.

    ll.

    While part of it is people don't generally listen in pugs, it's also the way the game is designed that makes this really difficult in Borg Disconnected. When it starts, people start moving towards a sector, but quite often you really can't see anyone else until the fight starts and you're already in a sector. Where it's worked for me is when someone says "we have too many people to the right. Some people need to move to a different area" and then I'll jump to the next area, realizing the others are probably going to stay where they were. So far, that has actually worked pretty well.

    A lot of the problem has to do with how little the interface shows you when you're in combat, and how you're focused on just staying alive that you often don't have that extra moment to take in the whole atmosphere of where everyone else is until you're way past the time of where it could have been beneficial to spread out.

    What often works in that scenario is to say BEFORE the fight: "I'm heading to far right. Make sure people hit middle and left." People generally listen to that before they take off and head to the place where they're going to focus for most of the fight.
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  • calaminthacalamintha Member Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited November 2014
    While part of it is people don't generally listen in pugs, it's also the way the game is designed that makes this really difficult in Borg Disconnected.

    Pugs understand it all right. Usually people spread out in the beginning but somewhere along the way (due to lack of tactics) notice that they can't actually manage to rescue anything and they promptly join another group. It doesn't even matter if I tell them that I can solo a location.
  • woodwhitywoodwhity Member Posts: 2,636 Arc User
    edited November 2014
    While part of it is people don't generally listen in pugs, it's also the way the game is designed that makes this really difficult in Borg Disconnected. When it starts, people start moving towards a sector, but quite often you really can't see anyone else until the fight starts and you're already in a sector.


    I thought that already at yuor previous post, but you have serious problems with the HUD, dont you?
  • leyvinleyvin Member Posts: 33 Arc User
    edited November 2014
    daqhegh wrote: »
    Just something I noticed after I rebuilt my Akira...It's an ultra tank destroyer now. And I have a way of getting too into my agro. Anyway, why is it I'm always on my own when I'm PUGging? Shouldn't teammates notice when others need a heal? I just assumed that was the main use for SCIs and such. My mian is a TAC, so my healing capacities are limited.

    You want a good place to put blame for the lack of 'Heals' look at the core game mechanics, especially as the game has "evolved to be better" ... which really just means it's far more DPS-focused now.

    Hell almost all of the STF (End-Game Content) features Enemies, that have abilities you literally cannot Heal people through; or de-buff from them. I mean you can delay the inevitable but not keep them actively alive through it, even if you can there is no way to tell Aggression; Enemies barely telegraph, you can't sit outside their range and Heal because Cryptic in their infinite wisdom decided to go with 10 and 5km as set ranges for EVERYTHING.

    I could probably write an epic post to explain ALL the bull**** that Healers have to put up with,
    but instead what I'd recommend is spend a day in our shoes.

    For the most part I don't even bother running PUG STF unless I absolutely have to, but to actually bother healing those idiots too? It'd be more productive to throw £10 notes down the toilet for an hour!
  • darthpetersendarthpetersen Member Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited November 2014
    I love my cruisers like the Excelsior and the galaxy. Attract enemies attention, taking a lot of damage and resist through great hull and shields.

    I have also loadouts with more healing abbilities, because iam an engineer and thats my duty. Repair ships and to TRIBBLE out the best from technology.

    But i mentioned, that kill enemies taking longer with this loadouts and players not need me as a tank or healer in that game. Because all is about DPS. So i switch to loadouts with more damage.

    Actual i like to play an healer. In SWTOR for example i stand in the back with my Jedi and heal/debuf the team and i have the feeling, that i was a great help for the team as an healer. In STO i have not this feeling.

    There is also a lack of communication in that game. Everyone is fend for oneself. There is no tactic and communication in random groups. Like starbase incursion. No one talks about tactic and which sector is cleared.
    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
  • shadowwraith77shadowwraith77 Member Posts: 6,395 Arc User
    edited November 2014
    To be honest, I think it has a lot more to do with how the developers have set up the way that someone would "heal" in space. It's really dystfunctional. I say this as someone who has tried to act as a "healer" in fights, and at some point I got so frustrated trying to do it that I just stopped trying. There are a couple of reasons I can think of right off the top of my head:

    1. They never created an easy way to target someone who needs heals while you're in the middle of a fight. Yeah, you can click that person on the team list, but then whatever you're fighting you completely stop fighting, and quite often it's hard to get back to fighting what you were fighting before as the targeting chooses whatever is closest rather than go right back to the thing you were shooting at earlier. Other times, it works great. Because it's not consistent, it's pretty crappy trying to keep up with it at the same time trying to keep someone alive.

    2. Healing abilities work on a cool down that is extremely crappy for continuous healing. You basically heal once (or twice if you have something else slotted like a shield heal and then a hull heal). Then you're basically out of the fight for an abusive amount of time until you can heal again. So then you're back to trying to shoot at something, and then have to target that individual that needed healing while still trying to maintain a dps rate on whatever you're fighting. Most people would give up here and never heal anyone again, except for a more random sort of thing.

    3. The healing range is way too short. I can't tell you how many times I tried to heal someone only to have that person slip out of range while I'm in the process of trying to heal him. You end up just giving up, as it's really hard to watch the entire team's hull bars, shield activity and also their range, AS WELL AS participate in a fight with other ships all over the screen.

    How could they fix this (which they won't)? Set up an alternative interface for healers that allows you to heal while maintaining your original target, like practically every other MMO out there does. That would increase the amount of healers MASSIVELY. Increase the range of healing. That would help. Make it a lot easier to heal people who aren't in your group because quite a few PUGs involve groups of ships fighting together but then doesn't actually group them, meaning you have to alternatively pay even more attention to people who are never on your group screen. Yes, I'm looking at you Crystalline Cataclysm with your ten people raid and only five people in your group scenario.

    The point is: I've always played a healer in games I've played. It's too frustrating to do it in this game, so I gave up. Basically, you lost a dedicated healer because you made the interface stupid if you're a healer. So how likely do you think people who don't normally heal are going to end up suddenly adopting healing paradigms?

    This can be easily solved, as all it takes it setting up your keybinds in your options menu, as well as your auto targeting options.

    For me, I use f1-f4 for team mates, while one of my auto targeting options is attack attacker first and, if I am not being attacked, than target the target of my ally, etc.
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