Strongly disagree with the need to Nerf carrier pets. My Xindi Frigs are perfect as is, they function as ideal support craft. The whole idea of having pets is to give an advantage over the mobs, and that's what they do right now -- they work perfectly.
If you make them any weaker there is no use for them. That's where we were prior to DR, we've finally gotten what we want even if if is not an intentional change.
Ideal Pets:
1) Enough HP to survive an environmental explosion
2) Enough DPS to make them worth investing in. No one is going to put down resources on Elite level carrier pets if they make less DPS than MK II gear.
3) Better AI: The AI they have now is ok but it could be better. For example: Explosion avoidance could use a look-at.
The first two are fine as-is. You should be looking at ways to make us want to play with them more, not looking at reasons to punish us for using them.
This is a bad idea, pets are the last thing that need to be scaled back, they are not the problem.
People aren't using pets to do 50k-100k dps, they are using bfaw builds with overcap, beta stacking, crit stacking, and fully upgraded gear. That is overpowered, not pets. In pvp pets are not the problem, new abilities like surgical strikes and ionic turbulence, and new rep items like the neutronic torps are causing problems.
Queues are slower then ever, and short-sighted decisions like nerfing pets won't help, please think things over carefuly instead of making drastic descisions like this.
this guy has it spot on as well
the only alphas pets have is if they are sitting in your launch bay (a massive pain to get them there) and you release them during an attack
otherwise they just fly around and you are lucky to get 50% on-target time from them
Strongly disagree with the need to Nerf carrier pets. My Xindi Frigs are perfect as is, they function as ideal support craft. The whole idea of having pets is to give an advantage over the mobs, and that's what they do right now -- they work perfectly.
If you make them any weaker there is no use for them. That's where we were prior to DR, we've finally gotten what we want even if if is not an intentional change.
Ideal Pets:
1) Enough HP to survive an environmental explosion
2) Enough DPS to make them worth investing in. No one is going to put down resources on Elite level carrier pets if they make less DPS than MK II gear.
3) Better AI: The AI they have now is ok but it could be better. For example: Explosion avoidance could use a look-at.
The first two are fine as-is. You should be looking at ways to make us want to play with them more, not looking at reasons to punish us for using them.
Agreed, and if this is some kind of back door way of getting at all the Scimitar drivers, remember that many of us carrier pilots are *not* flying the Scimitar at all, but other ships like the Vesta. I happen to like my little flying tractor mines (Advanced Danubes) to actually survive. Not saying they need to be invincible but all of the above here would constitute *reasonable* changes.
Because contrary to what you may think, my Danubes still do blow up--a lot--because like other NPC's they do not heal themselves or make any attempt to get out of the way of...anything.
Now, if they automatically responded in some fashion when I hit my defensive powers--such as polarizing their hulls when I do mine, having a science team heal shields when I hit mine, that could also be an avenue to explore as it would mean carrier drivers do have to pay attention to their pets to keep them alive long enough for their 5 stars, but that they might actually have a shot at doing so.
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I wondered why my pets were not dying off like they normally do. Pets have never really been good at anything except map spam to distract weapons fire but lately they have been doing far more than in the past and surviving longer without heals. I can see why this needs to be adjusted to keep the balance with all the ships that don't have pet spam.
I'll wait and see the changes before getting my panties in knots. I will say with all the new spec & rep skills and things, there are a lot of ways to have widespread heals for your pets and teams now that did not exist before which should also be taken into account.
Gold Sub since March 2010
Lifetime Sub since June 2010
Well, im going to put my two cents in, even though I have learned that you really don't listen to us Cryptic. I only have 2 carriers between my 5 toons, an obelisk on a fed tactical, and a mirror Vo'Quv on a Klingon engineer. On my fed, I went through the effort to get the advanced swarmers, and to be totally honest, I have been disappointed ever since I got them. There have only been a few times where I felt they were actually effective, but overall I have had to learn to spam whatever I have setup as the launch button, as I loose entire wings of swarmers to enemy fire, warp core breaches, and enemies apparently throwing spit wads at them. The obelisk itself is decent enough I suppose, but the swarmers, to put it plainly, suck. When it comes to my Vo'quv, one the one hand I love it. It tanks like no other Klingon ship I have (TRIBBLE, might have just given you something else to nerf) even if its handling is so sluggish, its.... well I cant think of an analogy to describe how painful it is to turn the vo'quv around. The pets, I have used to To'Duj fighters, and I hate them, they don't seem to do any meaningful damage, and they die just as easily as the obelisk swarmers. I almost always use the B'Rel frigates, as they seem to be the only pet that I have personally used that can stay alive long enough to be of any real use, and even they aren't that good.
Now for what really raises my ire. I have the odyssey pack on all of my fed characters. When I first got them, which I paid real world money to get them, I absolutely LOVED them. Then you introduced Delta Rising, and told us, the players, that a ship that is supposed to be the flagship of the federation fleet (for gods sake, the Enterprise is an Odyssey!) required a starship upgrade token, that we have to buy, and the Odyssey is still outclassed in several regards when compared to a tier 6... That made me feel like you intentionally told me that you are going to take my money, and then turn around and devalue the ship. Now I see that you are looking to nerf both my saucer separation, and my aquarius. Yes, I have used both, sometimes to great effect, as they should be. The ability to separate my saucer, or deploy my aquarius is supposed to be powerful. Its called a "force multiplier" in the military, I STRONGLY suggest you look up what that is if you don't know. On the other hand, I have separated my saucer, or deployed my aquarius, only to have them destroyed in under 20 seconds... And that wasn't in an elite queue, that was in normal queues, and locations such as the undine space battlezone... So, as I see it Cryptic, you have slapped me in the face once already, and it looks like you are thinking of doing it again....
I am not going to rant about priorities, other posters have brought up legitimate bugs, such as the toolbar messing up any time someone goes to ground and back to space (which I have personally experienced) which, when one thinks about it, are truly GAME BREAKING. Though I do have to wonder what it would take for you to actually start listening to us. Cryptic, I am going to leave you with something to ponder. A few years ago I was an avid player of Eve Online, and one day CCP (the development company behind Eve, in case you didn't know) decided that they didn't need to listen to the player base. They decided to start implementing changes that the player base strongly asked them not to, and made it clear that they didn't care about the players. Well, we responded with a protest. Over 15 thousand players unsubscribed, AND a protest was held ingame that was later called "Burn Jita",there are youtube videos of it, where we demonstrated the players ability to crash the game they produced. No, I am not threatening you with a protest cryptic, I just want to give you a warning as to the consequences of not listening to the players. You may have produced Star Trek online, and without you there would be no game, which many people have enjoyed over the years, but we are the customers, and without us, the game would have died years ago. Anyway, I have said what I wanted, and the past and other games have taught me not to expect any kind of response or even acknowledgement from you Cryptic, though I always hold out hope for some stupid reason.
We will be making some changes to Carrier Pets (e.g. Peregrine Fighters, To'Duj Fighter, Klingon Bird of Prey Pets, etc.), separation pets (like a Galaxy separated saucer, MVAM Pets, and Tal’Kyr Support craft, etc.), as well as similarly related pets (like the Odyssey Work Bees, consumable device Scorpion Fighters, Gorn Healing Platform Drones, etc.). All these items are leveless items and all these pets were using incorrect data that was causing their HP, shields, damage and healing to be too high. In some cases, the sum of the players pets were far outperforming the player’s ship itself. The HP, shields, damage, healing and related values for these pets are all being reduced to scale more consistently with other player gear.
Pets that are not affected are those that deal damage based on the player, instead of independent data. Changing these pets would have no affect since they are already using player data (e.g. Andorian Wing Cannons, Avenger VATA torpedo, Bio-neural Warhead, etc.).
This change only affects pets, and not the playable versions of any of these ships (e.g. the playable Jem Hadar Attack Ship and Danube Runabout are not affected).
Here is a complete list of all pets that are affected. If a pet is missed, it is probably a mistake. Please let us know, and we will look into it.
No 'Gold' pets, please. (Part of me still thinks this is precisely yet another monetizing scheme. Maybe I jumped the gun a bit on that; but, by the goddess, don't give em any ideas! :P)
Somehow I have a deep suspicion that this is lurking just over the horizon, Cryptic has been pretty blatant lately with their obvious cash grabs and this would not surprise me in the least and before anyone says it, no I don't expect the game to be free, but give me things I want to spend money on please.
The problem with nerfing these pets doesn't fix their main failing and that is the horrific pet AI, it wasn't bad enough that these things were already stupidly suicidal, now they get to die even faster. That may be the crux of the problem, the developers are at the limit of what they can do with the games AI structure, they can't make it any smarter, so they are forced to make adjustments peripherally to that fundamental limitation. That limitation however shouldn't preclude giving us more control over these pets, especially separated pets which we have no control over whatsoever at this point.
If something is not broken, don't fix it, if it is broken, don't leave it broken.
My main is a Lvl 60 Fed Science Captain flying a T5U Vesta with advanced delta flyers.
I get part of the concern as I can tell that my Vesta has a hull of 54K and my flyers have a hull value of 52k, where my playable flyer has a hull of 21k when I am in her. So I can see where maybe you can see nerfing pets as a possibility.
However, when I play, I try to do objectives and let my flyers generate threat to deal with other ships. Such as in Mirror Invasion, I put my flyers on intercept so that I can close the rifts, just as the game tells you to do. Obviously my Vesta isn't doing the damage because I'm closing the rift while my flyers keep flak off of my tail.
That scenario is going to throw off your data because if you are wondering why carriers aren't doing damage, its because there's more to do than just damage.
Hmm, guess my drone ships were performing too well after all...
lolz They should change the name from Hangar Pet to smoke screen! Rofl!!
Okay, I know this isn't as funny to carrier owners, but realize I also have a carrier on the Klingon side, my Slavers where nerfed into an unusable mess, they die upon launch and loot like a level 1 thief lolz. Then I purchased Purple Birds of Prey and they perform wonderfully, so they will be nerfed too. So I do feel your pain, but it's better to laugh it off instead of allowing it to hurt your feelings.
I shall just be more careful as to what I purchase in the future! Something my mom taught me as a young girl, "if it seems too good to be true, it usually is!" If the description for something sounds like a bargain, it will possibly be changed later so bide your time and let it be chewed on by the forumites for a while, after it's run through the wash then you can see if it's worthy of your money. I have my eye on that Tier 6 Romulan Warbird, by the time I'm leveled next year, it should have been whittled down enough to make a reasonable assessment if I still wish to purchase it.
New Lunar Republic
"Where monsters rampage, I'm there to take them down! Where treasure glitters, I'm there to claim it! Where an enemy rises to face me, victory will be mine!" -Lina Inverse
I worked my character and paid real cash to get dilithium for my carrier pets now your gonna nerf em.I want my dilithium back if your lessening their value
Players: "DR's level 60 scaling has buffed hostile NPC health and damage to completely unreasonable levels! This is ridiculous!"
Cryptic: "Working as intended."
A few weeks later...
Cryptic: "DR's level 60 scaling has buffed player-based NPC health and damage to completely unreasonable levels! Drop everything and pick up your nerf bats!"
Out of the 50+ pages of posts I've read in this topic, it seems just about everyone (at least those who own a carrier/flight deck/saucer sep/mva) is on the same page regarding:
- priorities of bug fixes, including game-breaking ones (mac users, ability tray resets, upgrade item-crippling, faulty gear-bioneural console, etc.) vs pets/saucers/mva/carriers/flight decks
- pressing concerns such as the state of the game post-DR (ex. empty stf queues)
- poor AI of pets/saucers, bugs with certain pets' abilities, bugs with carrier commands to effectively use pets, lack of any UI to separated saucer section, possibly as a game-engine AI design limitation
- for scaling challenge, NPC hulls are buffed instead of improving their AI & mission designs and team dynamics, yet for shields/hull/DPS of pets/saucers/mva it will all be reduced
- speculation of 'nerf what's already broken to begin with, sell it back all over again (to no end)'
- uncertainty about which pets/saucers under which conditions are increased beyond pre-DR levels, and whether this increase isn't actually desirable and necessary to begin with as a way to balance the aforementioned drawbacks
"In some cases, the sum of the players pets were far outperforming the players ship itself."
I can't ever see my Odyssey's saucer "far outperforming" my ship, that I purchased with zen and grinding and then upgraded to enhance it, yet this blanket "HP, shields, damage, healing and related values" also applies, for one, to Odyssey captains who already use up a console slot, lose hull, and already-useless crew on separation, nevermind be able to issue flight deck commands like on my vesta which there don't even work properly to begin with and have a cool-down to keep re-deploying.
Would it not make sense that T5 Upgraded ships actually have more "HP, shields, damage, healing and related values" given that pets/units are (supposed to be) integral parts of carriers/mva ships, and helpful (as opposed to useless and bugged and lacking UI) units for flight decks/saucers? If the "incorrect data" were caused by DR scaling up of NPCs, why should these be returned to pre-DR stats?
Devs: Provide the option to Turn OFF full screen flashes from enemy ship explosions
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When they are talking about pets far outperforming the launching ship, I have I think at some point they have lost touch with the whole point of having these things. A carrier needs it's fighters, they are the mobile extension of the carriers abilities, at least that is what they are supposed to be and full carriers have to suffer the loss of weapon mounts to accommodate two hangers being further weakened as a result. As for separated parts, I can only think how they are perceived outperforming can only be how they soak up damage for the limited time that they survive, for that I should certainly hope so, since the separated parts have next to no useful functionality other than that. Reducing the survivability of these pets without some other ability to compensate that loss make them even more of just an esthetic gimmick with even more limited functionality beyond that, from a gameplay standpoint that's bad enough but from a marketability standpoint it's just ridiculous. Is Cryptic trying to actively discourage future investment?
If something is not broken, don't fix it, if it is broken, don't leave it broken.
For a brief moment, I thought maybe hanger pets were finally going to be fixed. You know, the real issues they have. Like ignoring the Recall command. And because of this, if they get stuck behind a structure (it happens) they are simply lost to you. Or if they get too far away (because they are ignoring the recall command) they disappear from the hanger status window, are of no use to you, but still technically exist, so you can't launch more.
There's also becoming stuck while docked (Orion Slavers), requiring the hanger to be unequipped, then reequipped to fix. And yes, flying straight towards warpcore breaches, as if they don't want to live anymore.
Since you are addressing hanger/separation pets, can we at least fix them all the way?
Cryptic, has anyone over there in your posh offices ever understood the concept of Carriers at all? ever done any research? Carriers don't DO damage, they are support craft for other ships, the "pets" are supposed to be the mainstay of the ship, here's an example, and I really wish you take this seriously, at the very least do some RESEARCH!. In WWII, a carrier was designated as a fleet support, reconnisance, long range tactical, threat assessment and air defense for said fleet. frigates were mainstay anti aircraft support, battleships and cruisers would play a ship to ship/land tactical bombardment, destroyers played a anti-sub support role. the point here is carriers, maintained a small air defense for said fleet, their fighters played a reconnisance role and would partake in threat assessment at extreme range, soften targets etc. your changing one of the most important aspects of their role by taking away abilities, thereby making even using carriers a non optimal choice. I ask you reconsider before making such changes, not that I expect you to actually appreciate any input from your player base, sadly, that's how some other games went extinct.
Cryptic, has anyone over there in your posh offices ever understood the concept of Carriers at all? ever done any research? Carriers don't DO damage, they are support craft for other ships, the "pets" are supposed to be the mainstay of the ship, here's an example, and I really wish you take this seriously, at the very least do some RESEARCH!. In WWII, a carrier was designated as a fleet support, reconnisance, long range tactical, threat assessment and air defense for said fleet. frigates were mainstay anti aircraft support, battleships and cruisers would play a ship to ship/land tactical bombardment, destroyers played a anti-sub support role. the point here is carriers, maintained a small air defense for said fleet, their fighters played a reconnisance role and would partake in threat assessment at extreme range, soften targets etc. your changing one of the most important aspects of their role by taking away abilities, thereby making even using carriers a non optimal choice. I ask you reconsider before making such changes, not that I expect you to actually appreciate any input from your player base, sadly, that's how some other games went extinct.
You do realize that technology may have changed just a smidge over the course of 450+ years right?
Cryptic, has anyone over there in your posh offices ever understood the concept of Carriers at all? ever done any research? Carriers don't DO damage, they are support craft for other ships, the "pets" are supposed to be the mainstay of the ship, here's an example, and I really wish you take this seriously, at the very least do some RESEARCH!. In WWII, a carrier was designated as a fleet support, reconnisance, long range tactical, threat assessment and air defense for said fleet. frigates were mainstay anti aircraft support, battleships and cruisers would play a ship to ship/land tactical bombardment, destroyers played a anti-sub support role. the point here is carriers, maintained a small air defense for said fleet, their fighters played a reconnisance role and would partake in threat assessment at extreme range, soften targets etc. your changing one of the most important aspects of their role by taking away abilities, thereby making even using carriers a non optimal choice. I ask you reconsider before making such changes, not that I expect you to actually appreciate any input from your player base, sadly, that's how some other games went extinct.
I would like to expound on this a touch if I may, even though it seems cryptic is totally unaware that we are still talking about this. The WW2 example is great, but lets look at a modern aircraft carrier. Taking the Nimitz class "supercarrier" that is currently the flagship class vessel of the American Navy. Its onboard armaments include:
1624 × RIM-7 Sea Sparrow or NATO Sea Sparrow missiles
3 or 4 × Phalanx CIWSs or RIM-116 Rolling Airframe Missiles
and that's it. The Sea sparrow missiles are SHORT range missiles, the Phalanx is a CLOSE IN WEAPON SYSTEM, and the Rolling Airframe Missile is also a short range weapon. In short, all of the actual "weapons" that the most technologically advanced aircraft carrier in the world are equipped with are NOT designed to project firepower, they are meant as defensive systems to protect carriers. to quote Wikipedia directly, "In addition to the aircraft carried on board, the ships carry defensive equipment for use against missiles and hostile aircraft." As for the ability to project firepower, the carrier relies on its Carrier Air Wing, to do so. Another quote directly from Wikipedia, "In order for a carrier to deploy, it must embark one of ten Carrier Air Wings (CVW). The carriers can accommodate a maximum of 130 F/A-18 Hornets[27] or 8590 aircraft of different types, but current numbers are typically 64 aircraft." With all that said, yes, carrier pets SHOULD be doing the bulk of a carriers damage. THAT IS THE POINT OF A CARRIER.
The only change I would personally support (and im probably going to anger more than a few people by saying this) would be to have a range penalty to the actual weapons equipped to a carrier, BUT for that to work and be balanced, we would need to see VASTLY improved "pet" AI (not flying suicidally into a warp core breach, as an example) and control of our "pets". Though I do agree that some, SOME, need to be balanced better. 84k Hp on a Jem'Hadar fighter IS ridiculous, especially considering a T5U Odyssey, with rank 4 mastery has approximately 64k hp. Anyway, I'm done typing when I know what I have to say has absolutely NO impact on what Cryptic is going to do.
Yah you guys can probably circular file all your comparisons to IRL Navy ships
STO Carriers are a pet class...they are a pet class in a fictional sci-fi game. And i know that you guys probably hate hearing "because video game" to excuse things like this. But you know what? "because video game" thats what.
In most games pet classes have the pets doing their own thing, but also the player character gets in on the action too shooting arrows or shadowbolts or whatever. Building a STO Carrier to conform to IRL Carrier tactics, specifications, etc would probably be catering to a very small minority of players. Do you think anybody is going to want to play an STO Carrier where you micromanage your pets going out for attacks, coming back to the hangars and healing pet shields and pet health with zero contribution of their own in the actual attack? More importantly do you really think that the devs are going to change STO carriers to work like that? I've done a few suggestions of my own but if i have an idea in my head and it is so radical to the point where i know the devs wont do it, the idea stays in my head.
For the record this whole idea is a steaming pile of Equine Excrement.
They are when you spit the Haakona. You can choose to pilot one or the other thus making one of them a pet.
Though I agree with the whole idea thing. None of my hangar pets has more HP then my characters ship. If I look at the Scorps the wrong way they go bang, andI have to be nice to the Danubes or they just will not do as they are told and sulk off on the other side of the map.
The IRL carrier to STO carrier is not an accurate example, but not a bad one either overall. STO carriers do hold weapons slots primarily for firepower projection contrary to modern IRL Carrier; but at the same time their weapons slots are limited compared to similarly sized/maneuvering vessels in game. Trying to claim gimping their combat-pet wing is not an issue, is like trying to claim pulling an extra weapon slot from your cruiser or escort is not an issue.... I mean, this certainly has less of an impact on the hybrid type ships equipped with single hangars, such as the Gal-X, Vesta, Scimitar.... as they can fall back on their roles as cruisers, sci vessels and warbirds..... but this becomes problematic for the actual full carriers in this game, and I sympathize with them in this regard.
Carriers have point defence weapons and mainly rely on delivery method from its squadrons.
From Battlestar Galactica to current day real life ocean carriers but the star trek world is mostly void of any carrier platform, im guessing because of technological advances in warfare, proper carrier like ships would get popped in seconds after you render every fighter dead in the water with some kind of particle burst or venting nebula gas.
Then again, everyone seems to go for adaption in warfare just like the borg so i see no problem with galactica-trek hybrid carriers making an appearance in the star trek genre.
Comments
If you make them any weaker there is no use for them. That's where we were prior to DR, we've finally gotten what we want even if if is not an intentional change.
Ideal Pets:
1) Enough HP to survive an environmental explosion
2) Enough DPS to make them worth investing in. No one is going to put down resources on Elite level carrier pets if they make less DPS than MK II gear.
3) Better AI: The AI they have now is ok but it could be better. For example: Explosion avoidance could use a look-at.
The first two are fine as-is. You should be looking at ways to make us want to play with them more, not looking at reasons to punish us for using them.
this guy has it spot on as well
the only alphas pets have is if they are sitting in your launch bay (a massive pain to get them there) and you release them during an attack
otherwise they just fly around and you are lucky to get 50% on-target time from them
Agreed, and if this is some kind of back door way of getting at all the Scimitar drivers, remember that many of us carrier pilots are *not* flying the Scimitar at all, but other ships like the Vesta. I happen to like my little flying tractor mines (Advanced Danubes) to actually survive. Not saying they need to be invincible but all of the above here would constitute *reasonable* changes.
Because contrary to what you may think, my Danubes still do blow up--a lot--because like other NPC's they do not heal themselves or make any attempt to get out of the way of...anything.
Now, if they automatically responded in some fashion when I hit my defensive powers--such as polarizing their hulls when I do mine, having a science team heal shields when I hit mine, that could also be an avenue to explore as it would mean carrier drivers do have to pay attention to their pets to keep them alive long enough for their 5 stars, but that they might actually have a shot at doing so.
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I'll wait and see the changes before getting my panties in knots. I will say with all the new spec & rep skills and things, there are a lot of ways to have widespread heals for your pets and teams now that did not exist before which should also be taken into account.
Lifetime Sub since June 2010
IF YOU ARE GOING TO MESS WITH PETS BE SURE TO FIX THEIR AI SO THEY STOP HANGING OUT AROUND DYING SHIPS AND GETTING BLOWN UP IN WARP CORE BREACHES.
that is all.
Now for what really raises my ire. I have the odyssey pack on all of my fed characters. When I first got them, which I paid real world money to get them, I absolutely LOVED them. Then you introduced Delta Rising, and told us, the players, that a ship that is supposed to be the flagship of the federation fleet (for gods sake, the Enterprise is an Odyssey!) required a starship upgrade token, that we have to buy, and the Odyssey is still outclassed in several regards when compared to a tier 6... That made me feel like you intentionally told me that you are going to take my money, and then turn around and devalue the ship. Now I see that you are looking to nerf both my saucer separation, and my aquarius. Yes, I have used both, sometimes to great effect, as they should be. The ability to separate my saucer, or deploy my aquarius is supposed to be powerful. Its called a "force multiplier" in the military, I STRONGLY suggest you look up what that is if you don't know. On the other hand, I have separated my saucer, or deployed my aquarius, only to have them destroyed in under 20 seconds... And that wasn't in an elite queue, that was in normal queues, and locations such as the undine space battlezone... So, as I see it Cryptic, you have slapped me in the face once already, and it looks like you are thinking of doing it again....
I am not going to rant about priorities, other posters have brought up legitimate bugs, such as the toolbar messing up any time someone goes to ground and back to space (which I have personally experienced) which, when one thinks about it, are truly GAME BREAKING. Though I do have to wonder what it would take for you to actually start listening to us. Cryptic, I am going to leave you with something to ponder. A few years ago I was an avid player of Eve Online, and one day CCP (the development company behind Eve, in case you didn't know) decided that they didn't need to listen to the player base. They decided to start implementing changes that the player base strongly asked them not to, and made it clear that they didn't care about the players. Well, we responded with a protest. Over 15 thousand players unsubscribed, AND a protest was held ingame that was later called "Burn Jita",there are youtube videos of it, where we demonstrated the players ability to crash the game they produced. No, I am not threatening you with a protest cryptic, I just want to give you a warning as to the consequences of not listening to the players. You may have produced Star Trek online, and without you there would be no game, which many people have enjoyed over the years, but we are the customers, and without us, the game would have died years ago. Anyway, I have said what I wanted, and the past and other games have taught me not to expect any kind of response or even acknowledgement from you Cryptic, though I always hold out hope for some stupid reason.
On a side note:
Will we be seeing any T6 Carriers or any type of upgrades for our current Hangar support options?
I'd like to see new T6 Carriers for the Klingons and Romulans has well as the Federation for that matter.
If the Breen Command Ship Carrier turns out to be this years winter event reward, I hope it is T6 and not an upgradable T5
i guess all i can hope for is that cryptic will buff pets a few weeks after the nerf, realizing that was stupid.
carrier pets in general, except the drone ship, need buffs NOT NERFS! :mad:
Carrier Pets are not the problem!! I did post something that can maybe help... http://sto-forum.perfectworld.com/showpost.php?p=20482061&postcount=156
@nebulgamnezar aprox 444 days, 209 hours, 731 minutes, 780 seconds http://sto-forum.perfectworld.com/showpost.php?p=16715151&postcount=1
JOIN us in Star Citizen https://robertsspaceindustries.com/orgs/INQ <
The problem with nerfing these pets doesn't fix their main failing and that is the horrific pet AI, it wasn't bad enough that these things were already stupidly suicidal, now they get to die even faster. That may be the crux of the problem, the developers are at the limit of what they can do with the games AI structure, they can't make it any smarter, so they are forced to make adjustments peripherally to that fundamental limitation. That limitation however shouldn't preclude giving us more control over these pets, especially separated pets which we have no control over whatsoever at this point.
My main is a Lvl 60 Fed Science Captain flying a T5U Vesta with advanced delta flyers.
I get part of the concern as I can tell that my Vesta has a hull of 54K and my flyers have a hull value of 52k, where my playable flyer has a hull of 21k when I am in her. So I can see where maybe you can see nerfing pets as a possibility.
However, when I play, I try to do objectives and let my flyers generate threat to deal with other ships. Such as in Mirror Invasion, I put my flyers on intercept so that I can close the rifts, just as the game tells you to do. Obviously my Vesta isn't doing the damage because I'm closing the rift while my flyers keep flak off of my tail.
That scenario is going to throw off your data because if you are wondering why carriers aren't doing damage, its because there's more to do than just damage.
lolz They should change the name from Hangar Pet to smoke screen! Rofl!!
Okay, I know this isn't as funny to carrier owners, but realize I also have a carrier on the Klingon side, my Slavers where nerfed into an unusable mess, they die upon launch and loot like a level 1 thief lolz. Then I purchased Purple Birds of Prey and they perform wonderfully, so they will be nerfed too. So I do feel your pain, but it's better to laugh it off instead of allowing it to hurt your feelings.
I shall just be more careful as to what I purchase in the future! Something my mom taught me as a young girl, "if it seems too good to be true, it usually is!" If the description for something sounds like a bargain, it will possibly be changed later so bide your time and let it be chewed on by the forumites for a while, after it's run through the wash then you can see if it's worthy of your money. I have my eye on that Tier 6 Romulan Warbird, by the time I'm leveled next year, it should have been whittled down enough to make a reasonable assessment if I still wish to purchase it.
"Where monsters rampage, I'm there to take them down! Where treasure glitters, I'm there to claim it! Where an enemy rises to face me, victory will be mine!" -Lina Inverse
YEAH let's nerf that!:mad:
As if 1 beam hit didn't kill it already... let's make it so that a klingon TRIBBLE will kill it :eek:
this is just one example of many
Cryptic: "Working as intended."
A few weeks later...
Cryptic: "DR's level 60 scaling has buffed player-based NPC health and damage to completely unreasonable levels! Drop everything and pick up your nerf bats!"
Players: "Shoe, foot."
- priorities of bug fixes, including game-breaking ones (mac users, ability tray resets, upgrade item-crippling, faulty gear-bioneural console, etc.) vs pets/saucers/mva/carriers/flight decks
- pressing concerns such as the state of the game post-DR (ex. empty stf queues)
- poor AI of pets/saucers, bugs with certain pets' abilities, bugs with carrier commands to effectively use pets, lack of any UI to separated saucer section, possibly as a game-engine AI design limitation
- for scaling challenge, NPC hulls are buffed instead of improving their AI & mission designs and team dynamics, yet for shields/hull/DPS of pets/saucers/mva it will all be reduced
- speculation of 'nerf what's already broken to begin with, sell it back all over again (to no end)'
- uncertainty about which pets/saucers under which conditions are increased beyond pre-DR levels, and whether this increase isn't actually desirable and necessary to begin with as a way to balance the aforementioned drawbacks
"In some cases, the sum of the players pets were far outperforming the players ship itself."
I can't ever see my Odyssey's saucer "far outperforming" my ship, that I purchased with zen and grinding and then upgraded to enhance it, yet this blanket "HP, shields, damage, healing and related values" also applies, for one, to Odyssey captains who already use up a console slot, lose hull, and already-useless crew on separation, nevermind be able to issue flight deck commands like on my vesta which there don't even work properly to begin with and have a cool-down to keep re-deploying.
Would it not make sense that T5 Upgraded ships actually have more "HP, shields, damage, healing and related values" given that pets/units are (supposed to be) integral parts of carriers/mva ships, and helpful (as opposed to useless and bugged and lacking UI) units for flight decks/saucers? If the "incorrect data" were caused by DR scaling up of NPCs, why should these be returned to pre-DR stats?
There's also becoming stuck while docked (Orion Slavers), requiring the hanger to be unequipped, then reequipped to fix. And yes, flying straight towards warpcore breaches, as if they don't want to live anymore.
Since you are addressing hanger/separation pets, can we at least fix them all the way?
You do realize that technology may have changed just a smidge over the course of 450+ years right?
Theres a popcorn machine and seats, so sit back and watch the crash
Get the Forums Enhancement Extension!
/emote pours butter on the popcorn and presses the cup against the soda fountain lever.
I would like to expound on this a touch if I may, even though it seems cryptic is totally unaware that we are still talking about this. The WW2 example is great, but lets look at a modern aircraft carrier. Taking the Nimitz class "supercarrier" that is currently the flagship class vessel of the American Navy. Its onboard armaments include:
1624 × RIM-7 Sea Sparrow or NATO Sea Sparrow missiles
3 or 4 × Phalanx CIWSs or RIM-116 Rolling Airframe Missiles
and that's it. The Sea sparrow missiles are SHORT range missiles, the Phalanx is a CLOSE IN WEAPON SYSTEM, and the Rolling Airframe Missile is also a short range weapon. In short, all of the actual "weapons" that the most technologically advanced aircraft carrier in the world are equipped with are NOT designed to project firepower, they are meant as defensive systems to protect carriers. to quote Wikipedia directly, "In addition to the aircraft carried on board, the ships carry defensive equipment for use against missiles and hostile aircraft." As for the ability to project firepower, the carrier relies on its Carrier Air Wing, to do so. Another quote directly from Wikipedia, "In order for a carrier to deploy, it must embark one of ten Carrier Air Wings (CVW). The carriers can accommodate a maximum of 130 F/A-18 Hornets[27] or 8590 aircraft of different types, but current numbers are typically 64 aircraft." With all that said, yes, carrier pets SHOULD be doing the bulk of a carriers damage. THAT IS THE POINT OF A CARRIER.
The only change I would personally support (and im probably going to anger more than a few people by saying this) would be to have a range penalty to the actual weapons equipped to a carrier, BUT for that to work and be balanced, we would need to see VASTLY improved "pet" AI (not flying suicidally into a warp core breach, as an example) and control of our "pets". Though I do agree that some, SOME, need to be balanced better. 84k Hp on a Jem'Hadar fighter IS ridiculous, especially considering a T5U Odyssey, with rank 4 mastery has approximately 64k hp. Anyway, I'm done typing when I know what I have to say has absolutely NO impact on what Cryptic is going to do.
STO Carriers are a pet class...they are a pet class in a fictional sci-fi game. And i know that you guys probably hate hearing "because video game" to excuse things like this. But you know what? "because video game" thats what.
In most games pet classes have the pets doing their own thing, but also the player character gets in on the action too shooting arrows or shadowbolts or whatever. Building a STO Carrier to conform to IRL Carrier tactics, specifications, etc would probably be catering to a very small minority of players. Do you think anybody is going to want to play an STO Carrier where you micromanage your pets going out for attacks, coming back to the hangars and healing pet shields and pet health with zero contribution of their own in the actual attack? More importantly do you really think that the devs are going to change STO carriers to work like that? I've done a few suggestions of my own but if i have an idea in my head and it is so radical to the point where i know the devs wont do it, the idea stays in my head.
WTF!! Those are NOT "Pets" :mad:
For the record this whole idea is a steaming pile of Equine Excrement.
They are when you spit the Haakona. You can choose to pilot one or the other thus making one of them a pet.
Though I agree with the whole idea thing. None of my hangar pets has more HP then my characters ship. If I look at the Scorps the wrong way they go bang, andI have to be nice to the Danubes or they just will not do as they are told and sulk off on the other side of the map.
From Battlestar Galactica to current day real life ocean carriers but the star trek world is mostly void of any carrier platform, im guessing because of technological advances in warfare, proper carrier like ships would get popped in seconds after you render every fighter dead in the water with some kind of particle burst or venting nebula gas.
Then again, everyone seems to go for adaption in warfare just like the borg so i see no problem with galactica-trek hybrid carriers making an appearance in the star trek genre.