I think my other rep torps and also regular torps shouldn't be made irrelevant by this new torp, its not fair, they all cost the same. The neutronic torp shouldn't be more powerful then the undine rep or dyson rep torps.
if you had polarize hull up (even just polarize 1 ensign level power) and a brace for impact up (free power) with just the average amount of resistance consoles in engineering, while moving at a good clip, should have just neutered the torps damage down to nothing
He had his shields up, that is supposed to be enough to counter getting killed by a torp. BIF and PH is for giving hull resistance to kinetic damage when your shields are weak or down, you shouldn't have to use it at full shields.
(Yeah, I had to fudge the last one to include the 170% - it shows 169%, but it's a +30%, +30% sort of scenario.)
So the Corrosive basically matches up with what one would expect, eh?
Well, depends on the torp - cause not all torps benefit the same, meh.
TS3 Elachi is ~205%
TS3 E-Bio is ~232%
TS3 Plasma is ~231%
TS3 Particle Plasma is ~228%
TS3 Grav is ~232%
The Elachi, Chronitons, Transphasics do not benefit the same from TS (even HY) as other torps do. It's been bug reported for years and been ignored for years.
But anyway, TS3 is generally ~230%.
Okay then, a TS3 of Neutronic. And this is a bit curious...first what the info tells us should be happening, k?
Standard: 5738.3.. 852.6 rad
TS3: 6886.9x4 (~480%), 922.2 rad
TS2: 6886.9x3 (~360%), 922.2 rad
TS1: 6886.9x2 (~240%), 922.2 rad
That's from the Available Skills info. What about the hover over the torp in the Weapons Window?
Standard: 6111.9, 911.7 rad
TS3: 7353.9x4 (~481%), 988.6 rad
TS2: 7353.9x3 (~361%), 988.6 rad
TS1: 7353.9x2 (~241%), 988.6 rad
Which of course is not what happens...course not...would be too easy if that were the case. :P
TS3 drops out x3, TS2 drops out x2, and TS1 drops out x1 to multiple targets.
With the x3 from the TS3, the log reports the hits with a 0.3s interval - while the TS2 reported a 0.2s interval between the torps.
Each torp hit records four lines, Rad vs. Shield, Rad vs. Hull, Kin vs. Shield, and Kin vs. Hull.
If the targets are in range of one another (clumped), then they will take multiple Rad hits (from each torp that hits - say you've got three guys clumped together and are using TS3, then you're looking at 3x Rad per guy for a total of 9x Rad hits).
But anyway, the damage amounts appear to match the parse - just not the number of torpedoes. So let's say we take a look at it with the actual number of torps fired...
Going from Standard to TS1 vs. single target: +20%
Going from TS1 to TS2 vs. single target: +100%
Going from TS2 to TS3 vs. single target: +50%
And that's just all sorts of jacked up.
Normal TS3 benefits vs. single target is +130% damage over a standard shot.
Neutronic TS3 benefits vs. single target is +260% damage over a standard shot.
And that's before you get into the 3x Rad, multiple targets stacking even more Rad, etc, etc, etc. And don't forget it's a Quant based torp, so it's got the higher base damage (it's somewhere around 1830 compared to say 1503 for a Quant or 1352 for a Photon). So any boosts will boost that much more.
Also of note (and I'm going to need to hunt down groups of mobs for this), is what the hover says for each. TS3 x5 targets, TS2 x4 targets, and TS1 x2 targets.
(Yeah, I had to fudge the last one to include the 170% - it shows 169%, but it's a +30%, +30% sort of scenario.)
So the Corrosive basically matches up with what one would expect, eh?
Well, depends on the torp - cause not all torps benefit the same, meh.
TS3 Elachi is ~205%
TS3 E-Bio is ~232%
TS3 Plasma is ~231%
TS3 Particle Plasma is ~228%
TS3 Grav is ~232%
The Elachi, Chronitons, Transphasics do not benefit the same from TS (even HY) as other torps do. It's been bug reported for years and been ignored for years.
But anyway, TS3 is generally ~230%.
Okay then, a TS3 of Neutronic. And this is a bit curious...first what the info tells us should be happening, k?
Standard: 5738.3.. 852.6 rad
TS3: 6886.9x4 (~480%), 922.2 rad
TS2: 6886.9x3 (~360%), 922.2 rad
TS1: 6886.9x2 (~240%), 922.2 rad
That's from the Available Skills info. What about the hover over the torp in the Weapons Window?
Standard: 6111.9, 911.7 rad
TS3: 7353.9x4 (~481%), 988.6 rad
TS2: 7353.9x3 (~361%), 988.6 rad
TS1: 7353.9x2 (~241%), 988.6 rad
Which of course is not what happens...course not...would be too easy if that were the case. :P
TS3 drops out x3, TS2 drops out x2, and TS1 drops out x1 to multiple targets.
With the x3 from the TS3, the log reports the hits with a 0.3s interval - while the TS2 reported a 0.2s interval between the torps.
Each torp hit records four lines, Rad vs. Shield, Rad vs. Hull, Kin vs. Shield, and Kin vs. Hull.
If the targets are in range of one another (clumped), then they will take multiple Rad hits (from each torp that hits - say you've got three guys clumped together and are using TS3, then you're looking at 3x Rad per guy for a total of 9x Rad hits).
But anyway, the damage amounts appear to match the parse - just not the number of torpedoes. So let's say we take a look at it with the actual number of torps fired...
Going from Standard to TS1 vs. single target: +20%
Going from TS1 to TS2 vs. single target: +100%
Going from TS2 to TS3 vs. single target: +50%
And that's just all sorts of jacked up.
Normal TS3 benefits vs. single target is +130% damage over a standard shot.
Neutronic TS3 benefits vs. single target is +260% damage over a standard shot.
And that's before you get into the 3x Rad, multiple targets stacking even more Rad, etc, etc, etc. And don't forget it's a Quant based torp, so it's got the higher base damage (it's somewhere around 1830 compared to say 1503 for a Quant or 1352 for a Photon). So any boosts will boost that much more.
Also of note (and I'm going to need to hunt down groups of mobs for this), is what the hover says for each. TS3 x5 targets, TS2 x4 targets, and TS1 x2 targets.
:eek:
Nice,.. thx for that information.
[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
T'lilu SCI./Dxxdavid TAK./STO Inner Circle *** R.I.P. ***
4513.5 listed (Standard)
1352 base
99 Starship Weapons Training (+49.5%): +669.24 = 2021.24
99 Starship Projectile Weapon Training (+49.5%): +669.24 = 2690.48
Very Rare (+7.5%): +101.4 = 2791.88
Mk XII (+120%): +1622.4 = 4414.28
Accolade (+2%): +27.04 = 4441.32
The Mk XII's probably giving more than +120% - never been happy with those calculations. I've got a spreadsheet somewhere with the actual values, but I'm too lazy to go looking for it right now.
So yeah, both are off...hrmm...doh, forgot the Hierarchy BOFF. Heh, would have accounted for Pirate if I were on a KDF toon - keep forgetting about it on this guy.
But yeah, that's just another example of how the ratio stuff I complain about works.
Same stuff...
1352 torp becomes 4513.5
1830 torp becomes 6111.9
Each being ~334% because of skills/accolade/BOFF/etc...
But the Grav gained 3161.5 damage.
And the Neut grained 4281.9 damage.
Still, it's odd that it's got a Tric timer being a Quant...that 15s thing.
Oh, lolriffic...
So uh, that +5% CD reduction from Opportunistic that's supposed only to affect Captain abilities? It's affecting Weapon CDs...lol...yeah, the CD on the torp is 14.3s instead of 15s...it's being affected by Opportunistic from the Captain Specialization...lmfao. So are the other torps, so it's not anything special in that sense with the Neut Torp...but ugh, I hate this game - Delta Rising is the most bugridden/buginfested/bugalicious nonsense ever.
Okay then, now I'll go try to put Geist back together again...
(Yeah, I had to fudge the last one to include the 170% - it shows 169%, but it's a +30%, +30% sort of scenario.)
So the Corrosive basically matches up with what one would expect, eh?
Well, depends on the torp - cause not all torps benefit the same, meh.
TS3 Elachi is ~205%
TS3 E-Bio is ~232%
TS3 Plasma is ~231%
TS3 Particle Plasma is ~228%
TS3 Grav is ~232%
The Elachi, Chronitons, Transphasics do not benefit the same from TS (even HY) as other torps do. It's been bug reported for years and been ignored for years.
But anyway, TS3 is generally ~230%.
Okay then, a TS3 of Neutronic. And this is a bit curious...first what the info tells us should be happening, k?
Standard: 5738.3.. 852.6 rad
TS3: 6886.9x4 (~480%), 922.2 rad
TS2: 6886.9x3 (~360%), 922.2 rad
TS1: 6886.9x2 (~240%), 922.2 rad
That's from the Available Skills info. What about the hover over the torp in the Weapons Window?
Standard: 6111.9, 911.7 rad
TS3: 7353.9x4 (~481%), 988.6 rad
TS2: 7353.9x3 (~361%), 988.6 rad
TS1: 7353.9x2 (~241%), 988.6 rad
Which of course is not what happens...course not...would be too easy if that were the case. :P
TS3 drops out x3, TS2 drops out x2, and TS1 drops out x1 to multiple targets.
With the x3 from the TS3, the log reports the hits with a 0.3s interval - while the TS2 reported a 0.2s interval between the torps.
Each torp hit records four lines, Rad vs. Shield, Rad vs. Hull, Kin vs. Shield, and Kin vs. Hull.
If the targets are in range of one another (clumped), then they will take multiple Rad hits (from each torp that hits - say you've got three guys clumped together and are using TS3, then you're looking at 3x Rad per guy for a total of 9x Rad hits).
But anyway, the damage amounts appear to match the parse - just not the number of torpedoes. So let's say we take a look at it with the actual number of torps fired...
Going from Standard to TS1 vs. single target: +20%
Going from TS1 to TS2 vs. single target: +100%
Going from TS2 to TS3 vs. single target: +50%
And that's just all sorts of jacked up.
Normal TS3 benefits vs. single target is +130% damage over a standard shot.
Neutronic TS3 benefits vs. single target is +260% damage over a standard shot.
And that's before you get into the 3x Rad, multiple targets stacking even more Rad, etc, etc, etc. And don't forget it's a Quant based torp, so it's got the higher base damage (it's somewhere around 1830 compared to say 1503 for a Quant or 1352 for a Photon). So any boosts will boost that much more.
Also of note (and I'm going to need to hunt down groups of mobs for this), is what the hover says for each. TS3 x5 targets, TS2 x4 targets, and TS1 x2 targets.
Not to ? your math at all virus but, I usually use the bio-matter torp & the grav torp and, it seems every time I sue TS1 it hits up to 3 targets, instead of the listed 2.
I tend to notice variances between the tool tip listed in the P description section, vs the scroll over icon tool tips and, even sometime different reaction in actual practical use via eyeballing dmg indicators + combat logs.
Now granted, I cannot really base everything tested with eyeballing + combat log, unless it is a closed door test using no form of buffs/dmg boosting vs target's no buffing/DR boosts so, I usually base my observation between the 2 tool tips as, being controversial to each other the most than anything else.
Otherwise, I always enjoy seeing some testing from your posts.
Not to ? your math at all virus but, I usually use the bio-matter torp & the grav torp and, it seems every time I sue TS1 it hits up to 3 targets, instead of the listed 2.
I tend to notice variances between the tool tip listed in the P description section, vs the scroll over icon tool tips and, even sometime different reaction in actual practical use via eyeballing dmg indicators + combat logs.
Now granted, I cannot really base everything tested with eyeballing + combat log, unless it is a closed door test using no form of buffs/dmg boosting vs target's no buffing/DR boosts so, I usually base my observation between the 2 tool tips as, being controversial to each other the most than anything else.
Otherwise, I always enjoy seeing some testing from your posts.
The x2, etc in that post were the number of torps - not targets.
The general "way" of things...
TS3: x4 Torps per Target vs. x5 Targets
TS2: x3 Torps per Target vs. x4 Targets
TS1: x2 Torps per Target vs. x3 Targets
There are "special" torps that don't follow that - Hyper, Tricobalt, Temporal, etc.
32nd vipers here, we have made premade teams, fought many fleets, won a good few, on hilbert boards and so on, enough to be proud of- we are casual- most our members, but ya, have my fair share of blood on my hands,
I played against 32vipers premades many many times, i saw their first premade from around s6, i still remember their setup of 2 vesta drainers in the time that drain wasn't that popular, an original layout in those times. Funny fact, never saw you in a 32 vipers premade lol
see the difference between you and me is, I have 10 characters, I have sunk BILLIONS of ec into builds, I have bought 3 part sets from the lobi store just to test them out (I still have buyers remorse over the tet set:( ) and I do testing, I do testing of gear all the time, and I am not afraid to test out for a eng, tac, sci, or cruiser, escort, sci, cause I have like 80% of the ships in the game from all factions,
the biggest difference I would say between you and me is, im not rooting for just one build to succeed in sto pvp, I want all weapons to have a purpose in pvp, I want all ships to have a possible build on it that can win, and I am also willing to slit my own throat to do it,
All my characters are (or were, since i don't have time for delta grindind in each of them) gear up for pvp, and each one of them have at least 2 o 3 posible loadouts/ships for pvp. Standar escort, a2b crusier, proton vaper, transphasic bomber, energy drain, cc/disable , healer, snopper, are just a few of the builds i have. I have 5 lockbox ships, lobi consoles in each one of them, TONS of accx3 sets, and even MK XII purple tact consoles from the time they were about 40millons each lol. And don't even worth mentions fleet ships and gear. Do you still think im stuck in one build?
The big diference beetwen you and me, is that i play pvp, you only fly around in kerrat kiling farmers/noobs.
neutronic simply works different with spread. biggest difference is that using spread increases the base damage of each torp, instead of nerfing the TRIBBLE out of it, which has NEVER made any sense, especially with HY.
that was balance by the reduction of actual torps fired, but we all know that doesn't break even at all. its my hope that all future torps work with spread the same way, and do the same to HY, make it not miss, make it single target, but let it fire 4 instead of the 3. even unbuffed torp launches should launch several torps not just 1, maybe make it based on ship type. cruiser/battlecrusiers/dreadnaughts 4, sci ships/carriers/destroyers/warships 3, traditional escorts 2. this wouldn't effect how many launch when torp skills are used.
it would also be nice if they went back and updated the grav and bio to work with spread that way to, but i doubt they feel like upgrading something you already have, when they couldn't instead put a new carrot on a stick in the reputations to follow.
The following does not belong in the this thread, but it's something I've reported and even PM'd about. Taking a look at the Neut - seeing the stuff with Opportunistic as well...well, I'm ticked - so here it is for the public rather than just as a private bug report.
The 3pc Strength in Numbers set bonus from the Contractual Agreement set, the new Lobi set that arrived with the Delta lock box...
It's supposed to be a -5s CD reduction on shield heals when you use a shield heal.
So, say you use EPtS - it will reduce the CD of EPtS, TSS, ST, etc by 5s. Use TSS, reduces the CD for the others, etc, etc, etc. If you've got a boat wtih EPtS, TSS, and ST - each can provide a 5s CD reduction on shield heals.
Nifty, right?
The 5s CD reduction applies to everything but Reputation Abilities.
Yep.
Let it sink in.
With the 3pc equipped, using a shield heal on yourself provides a 5s CD reduction to:
BOFF abilities (including the new Intel abilities)
Captain abilities
Console clickies
Heh, even the CD when you switch consoles can be reduced through the use of shield heals when you have the 3pc equipped. I haven't tested it to see if there is a minimum amount - just saw it with the basic testing to make the report about it.
Weapons
Yeah, that 15s CD of the Neutronic can be reduced by shield heals as well.
So yeah, I know some folks out there have been running the 3pc to speed up their partigen builds - you play long enough, you know how often somebody should or should not be able to do something (and lol, some of them are even firing the torps and dropping the mines - /facepalm)...
...but yeah, maybe some public awareness will create the outcry needed to get this fixed since my feeble attempts have gotten nowhere.
EPtS...-5s to CDs - TSS...-5s to CDs - ST...-5s to CDs...you can do a 15-25+ CD reduction every 31s or so.
And yeah, I'm going to slap that Mine back on for a little 3pc action myself...
Cause maybe I'm just really ticked off about that spreadsheet and notepad comment that was made recently in another thread...because maybe I just happen to be one of those guys that has a few spreadsheets, reads parses in Notepad++, and happens to pay attention to the numbers flying around on the screen...yeah, maybe I'm one of those guys and the comment really ticked me off.
Well, I'm still waiting that Neutronic torp comes out of Beta ( ) to try it out, but spreads killing("vaping") few people is not unheard of.
I did it vs experienced SCI, escorts and tanks with quantum, bio and gravimetric.
Even transphasics but in combination with trans cluster torp/mine.
Thing about torpedos is that people overestimate their shields, think of TT as a "my shields are up" button, but mostly overestimate their defense value. Defense is the key part of surviving or dying from alpha torp attack. Shield facing droping to red for just half second is enough to squeeze a torp attack through. You can't see that in actual play and it looks like your shields are buttoned up, but no, in slow-mo you see they are not that stable even with TT on.
If neutronic indeed works as "spam spread and kill people" with no actual timing or buff/debuffs involved 90% of the time, then yes, it's probably broken, OR if it is like that but it's "working as intended" then some major adjustments in usual ship/combat setup must be made now.
What i gathered from seeing many builds people linked in chats and seeing same builds exploding is that many, many people don't have any points in armor skill, use only neutronium and/or RCS in ENG slots(if not all universals) and don't have sufficient defense value, or are very easy to bring into low/negative defense.
Resists help. but not by much if you are easy to bring into negative defense with enemy pumping uber ACC as a direct consequence.
How did I know that virus was going to come up in here and try to say the thing is op? Oh well, it's not a based photon or quantum so I say nerf it. Here's to you vapers, you had another great week or two before sci reclaimed the top spot.
How did I know that virus was going to come up in here and try to say the thing is op?
Heh, if you knew that - you knew it before I did. :P
I hadn't really looked at it until this thread came up. I've mainly been running it with TS2 rather than TS3 because of the ships I've been flying.
"Standard" TS Action
TS3: 230%
TS2: 200%
TS1: 170%
Neutronic TS Action
TS3: 360%
TS2: 240%
TS1: 120%
That +40% difference wouldn't really stand out with any sort of casual use with TS2. The +130% at TS3 would stand out like a sore thumb with continual use. The TS1 would probably lead to folks ditching the torp pretty fast with the -50%.
Even the +130% of the TS3 is nothing compared to what the TS3 E-Bio was doing which would have been around +172.5%. And if all seven of the buggers crit - lol - yeah, you noticed that...
...well, unless you were firing them at somebody in a Sci Vessel with 16-20k shields or at anybody with AtD - where they'd just laugh at you throwing cottonballs at them.
Lots of folks make torps out to be useless - that they still do, in this day and age of all sorts of bleed and debuff stacking is a might bit peculiar.
Even if the Neutronic is corrected to be 230% with a TS3 instead of 360%...it's got a base of ~1830 vs. the 1503 of Quants. That's ignoring the fun to be had from the Rad stacking. Cause as noted, the torps from a spread hit at an interval and while the shields will have the innate Kinetic resistance - you're going to be having the Rad hits as well (they hit both shields and hull) working down the shields some as well.
You'll get back into the Sci Vessel insane shields (then again, my Cruiser has almost 16k shields) and anybody running AtD, which they're likely running anyway for a variety of reasons with all the kinetic damage out there and PH/BFI/etc being chewed away - options are good and all that...
...but again, there's just so much one can do to get their torps to the hull and then doing all sorts of fun damage there.
They're not going to be DPS juggernauts - but spike...do a TS of Neuts/HY of Quants stack after timing the EWO'd BO with some Kinetic Precision, Armor Penetration, Intelligence Fleet, having dropped out some debuffs - having others stacked some debuffs - maybe coming in with an Improved Ambush supplemented by Sub in a boat with Flanking while also working in some Space Flanking...and the list just goes on and on and on...
Folks have a tendency of not putting the least bit of effort into their torps and expecting them to perform anywhere near their Energy Weapons where they've put all sorts of massive effort...and I've never understood that.
With all the bugs that are years old - with all the new bugs they introduce with some of the torps but not others they introduce at the same time (the initial comparison there was with the Corrosive Plasma which was introduced at the same time)...they seriously just need to a torp revamp and decide where they want them to be - and then take it from there.
Still ticks me off that the Elachi/Chrons/Trans have TRIBBLE TS/HY bonuses compared to the other torps.
They just need to say, "This is what we want torps to be like..." and get it all straightened out.
Not going to happen...but hey, whatever...I'm just a guy with spreadsheets and notepad.
i say sever its ties with qunatum tac consoles, only edge cases built entirely to buff this thing's damage present any sort of balance problem imo. some blanket nerf is just going to ruin a good thing, thats just being abused by say someone with 5 gold crtD spire quantum tac consoles
i say sever its ties with qunatum tac consoles, only edge cases built entirely to buff this thing's damage present any sort of balance problem imo. some blanket nerf is just going to ruin a good thing, thats just being abused by say someone with 5 gold crtD spire quantum tac consoles
How is that abusing it though... I ask honestly.
The real issue with torps in general... is that every other weapon in the game is balanced on the assumption that everyone runs 3-5 dmg consoles on it.
For torps this is a massive issue... as most people want things to look like trek and have all there energy weapons and 1-2 torps plinking away...and they plan to never back them up with proper gear. So, should the devs create and balance a weapon for this player... the player that loves torps and runs something like a torp boat ends up being an "edge" case.
Don't ask me how to best fix that issue... but its always going to exist. Those of us that love torps run torpedo consoles yes... even torps that don't have a type like harpang can easily be bumped by standard +torp dmg consoles with the proper spire ones.
IMO the best fix (which will never happen) for torps in general... would be to reduce the dmg on ALL of them by around 30% and also increase the shield pen on all of them by around 30%... and double the bonus from ALL torpedo consoles. This way anyone running a torp is going to want to run at least 1-2 consoles... and full on torp boats will sure get a buff but the base dmg reduction should mostly even out there dmg... with the massive 200k stupid hits not being as likely, and in trade have a more uniform dmg to hull from them.
Anyway not sure why I bother theory crafting solutions... Cryptic isn't doing anything but adding more and more over powered weapons to the game from here out anyway. lol
i say sever its ties with qunatum tac consoles, only edge cases built entirely to buff this thing's damage present any sort of balance problem imo. some blanket nerf is just going to ruin a good thing, thats just being abused by say someone with 5 gold crtD spire quantum tac consoles
VR Mk XII Neutronic vs. VR Mk XII Quantum...w/ TS3...minimal buffs otherwise.
The TS3 Neutronic w/0 consoles does 3741.354 more damage than the TS3 Quantums w/5x Gold consoles.
The TS1 Neutronic w/5x Gold consoles does 1845.774 less damage than the TS1 Quantums w/5x Gold Consoles.
Cause the TS1 buff for Neutronics is ~50% less than it should be. It's not just the TS3 being ~130% too much or the TS2 being ~40% too much...the TS1 is ~50% too little.
Also, if the Neutronic were 230% at TS3...then with the 5x consoles for each, you'd be looking at:
Neut 21634.26
Quant 17768.466
The Neut would still 3865.794 more damage than the Quantums...because the Neut still has ~21.76% more base damage. Which is "balanced" by it having the 15s base CD on the recharge vs. the 8s of the Quantum...when you add in the "specials" the Neutronic also has, etc, etc, etc.
It's still going to be the better torpedo in that instance, and it's also going to be why it's a special item where only one can be equipped.
But it's not going to be the "The TS3 Neutronic w/0 consoles does 3741.354 more damage than the TS3 Quantums w/5x Gold consoles." torpedo that it is now. Heck, with it at 360% with 5x Gold, it would be doing 33862.32 compared to that 17768.466 of the Quants...a 16093.854 difference.
And those numbers are low - work in the rest of the buffs, debuffs, having it crit - yadda, yadda, yadda.
The current TS3 of Neutronics is doing ~191% the damage of a TS3 of Quants - that's just working off the base damage and the damage boosts from the TS3, no other buffs. The way it works with the various ratios, that percentage would remain the same - just the amount reflected by that percentage will change - work in all the buffs, debuffs, crits, etc - the Neutronics would still be ~191% of whatever value you came up for with the Quantums.
And at the same time, the TS1 of Neutronics will always end up doing ~86% the damage of a TS1 of Quantums...
i say sever its ties with qunatum tac consoles, only edge cases built entirely to buff this thing's damage present any sort of balance problem imo. some blanket nerf is just going to ruin a good thing, thats just being abused by say someone with 5 gold crtD spire quantum tac consoles
Oh it's a quantum? Well I still hope they nerf it because it looks dumb.
Heh, if you knew that - you knew it before I did. :P
I hadn't really looked at it until this thread came up. I've mainly been running it with TS2 rather than TS3 because of the ships I've been flying.
"Standard" TS Action
TS3: 230%
TS2: 200%
TS1: 170%
Neutronic TS Action
TS3: 360%
TS2: 240%
TS1: 120%
That +40% difference wouldn't really stand out with any sort of casual use with TS2. The +130% at TS3 would stand out like a sore thumb with continual use. The TS1 would probably lead to folks ditching the torp pretty fast with the -50%.
Even the +130% of the TS3 is nothing compared to what the TS3 E-Bio was doing which would have been around +172.5%. And if all seven of the buggers crit - lol - yeah, you noticed that...
...well, unless you were firing them at somebody in a Sci Vessel with 16-20k shields or at anybody with AtD - where they'd just laugh at you throwing cottonballs at them.
Lots of folks make torps out to be useless - that they still do, in this day and age of all sorts of bleed and debuff stacking is a might bit peculiar.
Even if the Neutronic is corrected to be 230% with a TS3 instead of 360%...it's got a base of ~1830 vs. the 1503 of Quants. That's ignoring the fun to be had from the Rad stacking. Cause as noted, the torps from a spread hit at an interval and while the shields will have the innate Kinetic resistance - you're going to be having the Rad hits as well (they hit both shields and hull) working down the shields some as well.
You'll get back into the Sci Vessel insane shields (then again, my Cruiser has almost 16k shields) and anybody running AtD, which they're likely running anyway for a variety of reasons with all the kinetic damage out there and PH/BFI/etc being chewed away - options are good and all that...
...but again, there's just so much one can do to get their torps to the hull and then doing all sorts of fun damage there.
They're not going to be DPS juggernauts - but spike...do a TS of Neuts/HY of Quants stack after timing the EWO'd BO with some Kinetic Precision, Armor Penetration, Intelligence Fleet, having dropped out some debuffs - having others stacked some debuffs - maybe coming in with an Improved Ambush supplemented by Sub in a boat with Flanking while also working in some Space Flanking...and the list just goes on and on and on...
Folks have a tendency of not putting the least bit of effort into their torps and expecting them to perform anywhere near their Energy Weapons where they've put all sorts of massive effort...and I've never understood that.
With all the bugs that are years old - with all the new bugs they introduce with some of the torps but not others they introduce at the same time (the initial comparison there was with the Corrosive Plasma which was introduced at the same time)...they seriously just need to a torp revamp and decide where they want them to be - and then take it from there.
Still ticks me off that the Elachi/Chrons/Trans have TRIBBLE TS/HY bonuses compared to the other torps.
They just need to say, "This is what we want torps to be like..." and get it all straightened out.
Not going to happen...but hey, whatever...I'm just a guy with spreadsheets and notepad.
Maybe I was mistaken and you just hate torp spread. :P
I wish they would straighten out torps too, but I think we might still differ in position. People expect torps to perform like energy weapons because torps are physically denied from standing on their own. At the very most you can do a hybrid torp mine boat which can be pretty killer in PVP but falls way short on the games total damage measure(plus those new elite difficulty shields that tank FAW gods). I personally wish we would get the same or better performance if you spec into torps because that's a huge opportunity cost often wasted in pve or decent in pvp if you're not using the latest shiny which might get nerfed because of a certain poster who just might be in this thread right now. Since we can both agree Cryptic probably isn't going to address torpedo inferiority can we just let the next canon looking super torpedo fly?
IMO the best fix (which will never happen) for torps in general... would be to reduce the dmg on ALL of them by around 30% and also increase the shield pen on all of them by around 30%... and double the bonus from ALL torpedo consoles. This way anyone running a torp is going to want to run at least 1-2 consoles... and full on torp boats will sure get a buff but the base dmg reduction should mostly even out there dmg... with the massive 200k stupid hits not being as likely, and in trade have a more uniform dmg to hull from them.
I don't agree with this "balancing" solution, even though I do agree with your opinion that someone that makes a ship around a weapon type should do damage with that weapon and shouldn't be considered an exploiter(be it cannons, beams or torpedos).
All my ships have torpedo of sort, but shield penetration on them should be low to 0%
The moment you start adding high shield penetration to torpedoes you completely break the
shield-hull mechanic, as in that you are able to do damage with torps without need for even one tactical console or even uni-torp boosting console. timing or effort.
If it were so you could make a full-on SCI/Intel AoE debuffer with all cheese clickies you could fit and without any DMG consoles and just using Spread as only attacking tactical ability, minimum weapon power and still kill/damage everything in sight just by cycling TS.
That way you would make full/only torp builds dangerous and it is just as stupid, as it not only breaks shield/hul mechanic, you break Buff/debuff timing mechanic because you always do some kind of damage no matter what with always-penetrating always-damaging torpedos in always-cloaked torp-spamming ships with minimum effort.
Also, chroniton/rad sci spammers are only viable because torps have shield penetration higher then 0%.
Perfect mechanic for killing with torps is fine as it is(was), drop shield facing- shoot hull with torp - boom.
For that you need energy weapons, timing, buffs, debuffs, consoles, whole setup.
Everything else is easy mode for the PvE masses.(and we all are in PvE now until leveling is done)
Only way i could approve of penetrating torps is if penetration was a BOFF skill.
Perhaps the better fix would be to not add shield pen but rather shield dmg.
Right now shields resist almost completely torpedo dmg. (I seem to remember in the shows when they would get slammed by torps they still reported shields down to X% all the time.)
Perhaps the fix is more
30% less base dmg on all torps.
50% less resistance on all shields.
And a doubling of the numbers on Torpedo consoles.
(the exact numbers would likely have to be played around with) I think the idea is solid though. make torpedos dmg shields... still in a much less effective way then energy weapons.
I think that would make them much more viable on almost every ship. (not just to proc stupid things like VM torp and Rep torp debuffs). By making the console attractive you also promote more balanced ship designs.
The torp boat min max... would end up being very much on par with min maxed energy if done right.
A few of the main issues would be some of the rep torps that still have some really crazy 100% proc chance debuffs on them... I guess that wouldn't change though its already in game.
Regardless not sure the conversation matters at this point... pvp wise the game is pretty much unplayable anyway sadly.
*shnip*
Regardless not sure the conversation matters at this point... pvp wise the game is pretty much unplayable anyway sadly.*shnip*
QFT. Left the game late last spring after having played on/off since Feb 2010 and, other than occasionally trolling the forums, am dun dun dun. Serious question though - been looking around: WoT (meh imo). MW (nah). SW just a space on the rails shooter last I heard, so nah. SC is still a fair ways off it seems. SO any good space combat sims to be had? Not necessarily MMO, even single person? Any of the old ST titles worth picking up? Thanks in advance.
The moment you start adding high shield penetration to torpedoes you completely break the
shield-hull mechanic, as in that you are able to do damage with torps without need for even one tactical console or even uni-torp boosting console. timing or effort.
Projectiles benefit from the increased Shield Penetration offered by the EWO BO Pen DOFFs - each VR has a 30% chance for 35% bleed. Can be a BO1 with min Weapon Power, no Energy Weapon buffs, and even a Mk II VR [Acc]x3 to make sure it hits...
Nanite Disruptors can proc a 2% bleed and a -5 DRR hull debuff.
There is a R&D trait from the Projectiles School, Kinetic Precision, that gives 10% bleed.
Intelligence Fleet 2 provides not only provides 15% bleed but also 15% armor penetration.
Heck, speaking of Projectiles and Shields - Destabilized Emitters from the Intel Specialization tree can proc shield drains on the rear arc when using Projectiles. Elite Fleet Disruptors can weaken a shield's damage reduction. The Neutronic torps include a power drain, which in turn will reduce shield damage reduction from Shield Power.
And well, I'm not awake yet and don't have enough caffeine in me to reply in as coherent manner or with a pseudo complete list...
...but uh, we're well past your concern there - well, outside of the effort. Most folks go loltorps and don't even give them a second thought. There was all sorts of "fun" things you could do with them even before the R&D stuff and everything dropped out since then...it's just gotten more "fun" since then.
Bleed doesn't care if somebody's got 15-20k shields. SNB stripping AtD's been joined by Gather Intel and stripping Eng buffs.
You mix that in with some Exotic...and voila, where things have been going for well over a year.
But Cryptic hasn't been all one-sided about it...look at all the escapes they've added so folks can try to get away from that mix of TS/HY torps, some mines, some R-TBR, with a coating of EWP/Theta, while the GW's pounding away, the Spatial Charges are being dropped, and all the rest...got escapes out the wahzoo - they're not for getting away from cannons, lol...plink-plink doesn't warrant that compared to the nightmare one can bring otherwise.
I don't agree with this "balancing" solution, even though I do agree with your opinion that someone that makes a ship around a weapon type should do damage with that weapon and shouldn't be considered an exploiter(be it cannons, beams or torpedos).
All my ships have torpedo of sort, but shield penetration on them should be low to 0%
The moment you start adding high shield penetration to torpedoes you completely break the
shield-hull mechanic, as in that you are able to do damage with torps without need for even one tactical console or even uni-torp boosting console. timing or effort.
Seriously. As if vapers weren't offensive enough?
But to actually contribute, changing the mechanics of torpedo damage is just homogenizing the damage types. No one would ever mix energy and kinetic.
I'm not saying that everyone that mixes them now does so to maximize kills outside of PVP. They are pretty strictly flavor only. Inside of PVP they should remain a niche build, not a spammed ability. I hope that made sense. I need coffee.
Comments
I think some of you must not have clicked the linky the first time around....
c'mon, we're living the freakin PWE dream here!
So then...ONE....MORE....TIME!!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=StTqXEQ2l-Y
Kill Feddie.
Waff
He had his shields up, that is supposed to be enough to counter getting killed by a torp. BIF and PH is for giving hull resistance to kinetic damage when your shields are weak or down, you shouldn't have to use it at full shields.
Each doing ~2k raw damage, ~400 to shields, ~180 to hull.
Not very impressive, eh? Poor lil' Corrosive Plasma Torp. Based on the info...
Standard: 3617.2
TS3: 2087.8x4 ~230%
TS2: 2405.8x3 ~200%
TS1: 3048.3x2 ~169-170%
(Yeah, I had to fudge the last one to include the 170% - it shows 169%, but it's a +30%, +30% sort of scenario.)
So the Corrosive basically matches up with what one would expect, eh?
Well, depends on the torp - cause not all torps benefit the same, meh.
TS3 Elachi is ~205%
TS3 E-Bio is ~232%
TS3 Plasma is ~231%
TS3 Particle Plasma is ~228%
TS3 Grav is ~232%
The Elachi, Chronitons, Transphasics do not benefit the same from TS (even HY) as other torps do. It's been bug reported for years and been ignored for years.
But anyway, TS3 is generally ~230%.
Okay then, a TS3 of Neutronic. And this is a bit curious...first what the info tells us should be happening, k?
Standard: 5738.3.. 852.6 rad
TS3: 6886.9x4 (~480%), 922.2 rad
TS2: 6886.9x3 (~360%), 922.2 rad
TS1: 6886.9x2 (~240%), 922.2 rad
That's from the Available Skills info. What about the hover over the torp in the Weapons Window?
Standard: 6111.9, 911.7 rad
TS3: 7353.9x4 (~481%), 988.6 rad
TS2: 7353.9x3 (~361%), 988.6 rad
TS1: 7353.9x2 (~241%), 988.6 rad
Which of course is not what happens...course not...would be too easy if that were the case. :P
TS3 drops out x3, TS2 drops out x2, and TS1 drops out x1 to multiple targets.
With the x3 from the TS3, the log reports the hits with a 0.3s interval - while the TS2 reported a 0.2s interval between the torps.
Each torp hit records four lines, Rad vs. Shield, Rad vs. Hull, Kin vs. Shield, and Kin vs. Hull.
If the targets are in range of one another (clumped), then they will take multiple Rad hits (from each torp that hits - say you've got three guys clumped together and are using TS3, then you're looking at 3x Rad per guy for a total of 9x Rad hits).
But anyway, the damage amounts appear to match the parse - just not the number of torpedoes. So let's say we take a look at it with the actual number of torps fired...
Standard: 6111.9
TS3: 7353.9x3 (~361%)
TS2: 7353.9x2 (~241%)
TS1: 7353.9x1 (~120%)
And we're just not looking at the expected 230%, 200%, 170%.
Say we keep that Standard, how could we get the expected amounts with the correct number of torpedoes fired?
Standard: 6111.9
TS3 (~230%): 4x ~3514.3
TS2 (~200%): 3x ~4074.6
TS1 (~170%): 2x ~5195.1
Because as it stands currently...
Going from Standard to TS1 vs. single target: +20%
Going from TS1 to TS2 vs. single target: +100%
Going from TS2 to TS3 vs. single target: +50%
And that's just all sorts of jacked up.
Normal TS3 benefits vs. single target is +130% damage over a standard shot.
Neutronic TS3 benefits vs. single target is +260% damage over a standard shot.
And that's before you get into the 3x Rad, multiple targets stacking even more Rad, etc, etc, etc. And don't forget it's a Quant based torp, so it's got the higher base damage (it's somewhere around 1830 compared to say 1503 for a Quant or 1352 for a Photon). So any boosts will boost that much more.
1352 * 1.3 = 1757.6 - 1352 = +405.6
1503 * 1.3 = 1953.9 - 1503 = +450.9
1830 * 1.3 = 2379.0 - 1830 = +549.0
(Yes, I had to work in my complaint about ratios, didn't I?)
But yeah, anyway...it's overperforming compared to other torps when used in conjunction to Torp Spread.
Ugh, now to try to put Geist back together again...I don't even know where to start with how I goofed him up trying to take a look at this, lol.
***TS3***
14:10:31:15:45:55.0::Geist,P[6114054@4209758 Geist@virusdancer],,*,Starbase 234,C[389 Starbase_Enemy_Fed_T2],Neutronic Torpedo - Spread III,Pn.R11ige,Shield,,-1348.87,-4855.64
14:10:31:15:45:55.0::Geist,P[6114054@4209758 Geist@virusdancer],,*,Starbase 234,C[389 Starbase_Enemy_Fed_T2],Neutronic Torpedo - Spread III,Pn.R11ige,Shield,,-860.824,-774.695
14:10:31:15:45:55.0::Geist,P[6114054@4209758 Geist@virusdancer],,*,Starbase 234,C[389 Starbase_Enemy_Fed_T2],Neutronic Torpedo - Spread III,Pn.R11ige,Kinetic,,539.516,6970.9
14:10:31:15:45:55.0::Geist,P[6114054@4209758 Geist@virusdancer],,*,Starbase 234,C[389 Starbase_Enemy_Fed_T2],Neutronic Torpedo - Spread III,Pn.R11ige,Radiation,,86.0772,1112.18
14:10:31:15:45:55.3::Geist,P[6114054@4209758 Geist@virusdancer],,*,Starbase 234,C[389 Starbase_Enemy_Fed_T2],Neutronic Torpedo - Spread III,Pn.R11ige,Shield,,-1605.15,-5628.39
14:10:31:15:45:55.3::Geist,P[6114054@4209758 Geist@virusdancer],,*,Starbase 234,C[389 Starbase_Enemy_Fed_T2],Neutronic Torpedo - Spread III,Pn.R11ige,Shield,,-871.316,-763.808
14:10:31:15:45:55.3::Geist,P[6114054@4209758 Geist@virusdancer],,*,Starbase 234,C[389 Starbase_Enemy_Fed_T2],Neutronic Torpedo - Spread III,Pn.R11ige,Kinetic,,731.373,8217.24
14:10:31:15:45:55.3::Geist,P[6114054@4209758 Geist@virusdancer],,*,Starbase 234,C[389 Starbase_Enemy_Fed_T2],Neutronic Torpedo - Spread III,Pn.R11ige,Radiation,,99.2518,1115.13
14:10:31:15:45:55.6::Geist,P[6114054@4209758 Geist@virusdancer],,*,Starbase 234,C[389 Starbase_Enemy_Fed_T2],Neutronic Torpedo - Spread III,Pn.R11ige,Shield,,-855.763,-750.174
14:10:31:15:45:55.6::Geist,P[6114054@4209758 Geist@virusdancer],,*,Starbase 234,C[389 Starbase_Enemy_Fed_T2],Neutronic Torpedo - Spread III,Pn.R11ige,Shield,,-1476.37,-5176.83
14:10:31:15:45:55.6::Geist,P[6114054@4209758 Geist@virusdancer],,*,Starbase 234,C[389 Starbase_Enemy_Fed_T2],Neutronic Torpedo - Spread III,Pn.R11ige,Radiation,,97.4802,1095.23
14:10:31:15:45:55.6::Geist,P[6114054@4209758 Geist@virusdancer],,*,Starbase 234,C[389 Starbase_Enemy_Fed_T2],Neutronic Torpedo - Spread III,Pn.R11ige,Kinetic,,672.695,7557.98
***TS2***
14:10:31:15:46:23.6::Geist,P[6114054@4209758 Geist@virusdancer],,*,Starbase 234,C[389 Starbase_Enemy_Fed_T2],Neutronic Torpedo - Spread II,Pn.Jbbi6e,Shield,,-1382.47,-4976.58
14:10:31:15:46:23.6::Geist,P[6114054@4209758 Geist@virusdancer],,*,Starbase 234,C[389 Starbase_Enemy_Fed_T2],Neutronic Torpedo - Spread II,Pn.Jbbi6e,Shield,,-823.661,-741.25
14:10:31:15:46:23.6::Geist,P[6114054@4209758 Geist@virusdancer],,*,Starbase 234,C[389 Starbase_Enemy_Fed_T2],Neutronic Torpedo - Spread II,Pn.Jbbi6e,Kinetic,,552.953,7144.52
14:10:31:15:46:23.6::Geist,P[6114054@4209758 Geist@virusdancer],,*,Starbase 234,C[389 Starbase_Enemy_Fed_T2],Neutronic Torpedo - Spread II,Pn.Jbbi6e,Radiation,,82.3611,1064.16
14:10:31:15:46:23.8::Geist,P[6114054@4209758 Geist@virusdancer],,*,Starbase 234,C[389 Starbase_Enemy_Fed_T2],Neutronic Torpedo - Spread II,Pn.Jbbi6e,Shield,,-1525.16,-5347.9
14:10:31:15:46:23.8::Geist,P[6114054@4209758 Geist@virusdancer],,*,Starbase 234,C[389 Starbase_Enemy_Fed_T2],Neutronic Torpedo - Spread II,Pn.Jbbi6e,Shield,,-810.171,-710.207
14:10:31:15:46:23.8::Geist,P[6114054@4209758 Geist@virusdancer],,*,Starbase 234,C[389 Starbase_Enemy_Fed_T2],Neutronic Torpedo - Spread II,Pn.Jbbi6e,Kinetic,,694.925,7807.74
14:10:31:15:46:23.8::Geist,P[6114054@4209758 Geist@virusdancer],,*,Starbase 234,C[389 Starbase_Enemy_Fed_T2],Neutronic Torpedo - Spread II,Pn.Jbbi6e,Radiation,,92.2868,1036.88
***TS1***
14:10:31:15:46:44.8::Geist,P[6114054@4209758 Geist@virusdancer],,*,Starbase 234,C[389 Starbase_Enemy_Fed_T2],Neutronic Torpedo - Spread I,Pn.Blliwd,Shield,,-866.223,-779.554
14:10:31:15:46:44.8::Geist,P[6114054@4209758 Geist@virusdancer],,*,Starbase 234,C[389 Starbase_Enemy_Fed_T2],Neutronic Torpedo - Spread I,Pn.Blliwd,Shield,,-1566.76,-5639.98
14:10:31:15:46:44.8::Geist,P[6114054@4209758 Geist@virusdancer],,*,Starbase 234,C[389 Starbase_Enemy_Fed_T2],Neutronic Torpedo - Spread I,Pn.Blliwd,Radiation,,86.6171,1119.15
14:10:31:15:46:44.8::Geist,P[6114054@4209758 Geist@virusdancer],,*,Starbase 234,C[389 Starbase_Enemy_Fed_T2],Neutronic Torpedo - Spread I,Pn.Blliwd,Kinetic,,626.665,8096.93
***Standard***
14:10:31:16:07:12.1::Geist,P[6114054@4209758 Geist@virusdancer],,*,Starbase 234,C[462 Starbase_Enemy_Fed_T2],Neutronic Torpedo,Pn.2ugmy6,Shield,,-1228.48,-4422.27
14:10:31:16:07:12.1::Geist,P[6114054@4209758 Geist@virusdancer],,*,Starbase 234,C[462 Starbase_Enemy_Fed_T2],Neutronic Torpedo,Pn.2ugmy6,Shield,,-771.26,-694.092
14:10:31:16:07:12.1::Geist,P[6114054@4209758 Geist@virusdancer],,*,Starbase 234,C[462 Starbase_Enemy_Fed_T2],Neutronic Torpedo,Pn.2ugmy6,Kinetic,,491.363,6348.74
14:10:31:16:07:12.1::Geist,P[6114054@4209758 Geist@virusdancer],,*,Starbase 234,C[462 Starbase_Enemy_Fed_T2],Neutronic Torpedo,Pn.2ugmy6,Radiation,,77.1214,996.46
Also of note (and I'm going to need to hunt down groups of mobs for this), is what the hover says for each. TS3 x5 targets, TS2 x4 targets, and TS1 x2 targets.
:eek:
Nice,.. thx for that information.
*** R.I.P. ***
Grav Photon:
4513.5 listed (Standard)
1352 base
99 Starship Weapons Training (+49.5%): +669.24 = 2021.24
99 Starship Projectile Weapon Training (+49.5%): +669.24 = 2690.48
Very Rare (+7.5%): +101.4 = 2791.88
Mk XII (+120%): +1622.4 = 4414.28
Accolade (+2%): +27.04 = 4441.32
The Mk XII's probably giving more than +120% - never been happy with those calculations. I've got a spreadsheet somewhere with the actual values, but I'm too lazy to go looking for it right now.
Neutronic
6111.9 (Standard)
1830 base
99 SWT: +905.85 = 2735.85
99 SPWT: +905.85 = 3641.7
VR: +137.25 = 3778.95
Mk XII: +2196 = 5974.95
Accolade: +36.6 = 6011.55
So yeah, both are off...hrmm...doh, forgot the Hierarchy BOFF. Heh, would have accounted for Pirate if I were on a KDF toon - keep forgetting about it on this guy.
But yeah, that's just another example of how the ratio stuff I complain about works.
Same stuff...
1352 torp becomes 4513.5
1830 torp becomes 6111.9
Each being ~334% because of skills/accolade/BOFF/etc...
But the Grav gained 3161.5 damage.
And the Neut grained 4281.9 damage.
Still, it's odd that it's got a Tric timer being a Quant...that 15s thing.
Oh, lolriffic...
So uh, that +5% CD reduction from Opportunistic that's supposed only to affect Captain abilities? It's affecting Weapon CDs...lol...yeah, the CD on the torp is 14.3s instead of 15s...it's being affected by Opportunistic from the Captain Specialization...lmfao. So are the other torps, so it's not anything special in that sense with the Neut Torp...but ugh, I hate this game - Delta Rising is the most bugridden/buginfested/bugalicious nonsense ever.
Okay then, now I'll go try to put Geist back together again...
Not to ? your math at all virus but, I usually use the bio-matter torp & the grav torp and, it seems every time I sue TS1 it hits up to 3 targets, instead of the listed 2.
I tend to notice variances between the tool tip listed in the P description section, vs the scroll over icon tool tips and, even sometime different reaction in actual practical use via eyeballing dmg indicators + combat logs.
Now granted, I cannot really base everything tested with eyeballing + combat log, unless it is a closed door test using no form of buffs/dmg boosting vs target's no buffing/DR boosts so, I usually base my observation between the 2 tool tips as, being controversial to each other the most than anything else.
Otherwise, I always enjoy seeing some testing from your posts.
Praetor of the -RTS- Romulan Tal Shiar fleet!
The x2, etc in that post were the number of torps - not targets.
The general "way" of things...
TS3: x4 Torps per Target vs. x5 Targets
TS2: x3 Torps per Target vs. x4 Targets
TS1: x2 Torps per Target vs. x3 Targets
There are "special" torps that don't follow that - Hyper, Tricobalt, Temporal, etc.
I played against 32vipers premades many many times, i saw their first premade from around s6, i still remember their setup of 2 vesta drainers in the time that drain wasn't that popular, an original layout in those times. Funny fact, never saw you in a 32 vipers premade lol
All my characters are (or were, since i don't have time for delta grindind in each of them) gear up for pvp, and each one of them have at least 2 o 3 posible loadouts/ships for pvp. Standar escort, a2b crusier, proton vaper, transphasic bomber, energy drain, cc/disable , healer, snopper, are just a few of the builds i have. I have 5 lockbox ships, lobi consoles in each one of them, TONS of accx3 sets, and even MK XII purple tact consoles from the time they were about 40millons each lol. And don't even worth mentions fleet ships and gear. Do you still think im stuck in one build?
The big diference beetwen you and me, is that i play pvp, you only fly around in kerrat kiling farmers/noobs.
Vin Naftero@playhard88 - FED Sciencie
K'tan@playhard88 - KDF Tactical
Argento@playhard88 - RRF Tactical (FED)
Ah, ok that cleared up my confusion. ty!
Praetor of the -RTS- Romulan Tal Shiar fleet!
that was balance by the reduction of actual torps fired, but we all know that doesn't break even at all. its my hope that all future torps work with spread the same way, and do the same to HY, make it not miss, make it single target, but let it fire 4 instead of the 3. even unbuffed torp launches should launch several torps not just 1, maybe make it based on ship type. cruiser/battlecrusiers/dreadnaughts 4, sci ships/carriers/destroyers/warships 3, traditional escorts 2. this wouldn't effect how many launch when torp skills are used.
it would also be nice if they went back and updated the grav and bio to work with spread that way to, but i doubt they feel like upgrading something you already have, when they couldn't instead put a new carrot on a stick in the reputations to follow.
The 3pc Strength in Numbers set bonus from the Contractual Agreement set, the new Lobi set that arrived with the Delta lock box...
It's supposed to be a -5s CD reduction on shield heals when you use a shield heal.
So, say you use EPtS - it will reduce the CD of EPtS, TSS, ST, etc by 5s. Use TSS, reduces the CD for the others, etc, etc, etc. If you've got a boat wtih EPtS, TSS, and ST - each can provide a 5s CD reduction on shield heals.
Nifty, right?
The 5s CD reduction applies to everything but Reputation Abilities.
Yep.
Let it sink in.
With the 3pc equipped, using a shield heal on yourself provides a 5s CD reduction to:
BOFF abilities (including the new Intel abilities)
Captain abilities
Console clickies
Heh, even the CD when you switch consoles can be reduced through the use of shield heals when you have the 3pc equipped. I haven't tested it to see if there is a minimum amount - just saw it with the basic testing to make the report about it.
Weapons
Yeah, that 15s CD of the Neutronic can be reduced by shield heals as well.
So yeah, I know some folks out there have been running the 3pc to speed up their partigen builds - you play long enough, you know how often somebody should or should not be able to do something (and lol, some of them are even firing the torps and dropping the mines - /facepalm)...
...but yeah, maybe some public awareness will create the outcry needed to get this fixed since my feeble attempts have gotten nowhere.
EPtS...-5s to CDs - TSS...-5s to CDs - ST...-5s to CDs...you can do a 15-25+ CD reduction every 31s or so.
And yeah, I'm going to slap that Mine back on for a little 3pc action myself...
Cause maybe I'm just really ticked off about that spreadsheet and notepad comment that was made recently in another thread...because maybe I just happen to be one of those guys that has a few spreadsheets, reads parses in Notepad++, and happens to pay attention to the numbers flying around on the screen...yeah, maybe I'm one of those guys and the comment really ticked me off.
I did it vs experienced SCI, escorts and tanks with quantum, bio and gravimetric.
Even transphasics but in combination with trans cluster torp/mine.
Thing about torpedos is that people overestimate their shields, think of TT as a "my shields are up" button, but mostly overestimate their defense value. Defense is the key part of surviving or dying from alpha torp attack. Shield facing droping to red for just half second is enough to squeeze a torp attack through. You can't see that in actual play and it looks like your shields are buttoned up, but no, in slow-mo you see they are not that stable even with TT on.
If neutronic indeed works as "spam spread and kill people" with no actual timing or buff/debuffs involved 90% of the time, then yes, it's probably broken, OR if it is like that but it's "working as intended" then some major adjustments in usual ship/combat setup must be made now.
What i gathered from seeing many builds people linked in chats and seeing same builds exploding is that many, many people don't have any points in armor skill, use only neutronium and/or RCS in ENG slots(if not all universals) and don't have sufficient defense value, or are very easy to bring into low/negative defense.
Resists help. but not by much if you are easy to bring into negative defense with enemy pumping uber ACC as a direct consequence.
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Heh, if you knew that - you knew it before I did. :P
I hadn't really looked at it until this thread came up. I've mainly been running it with TS2 rather than TS3 because of the ships I've been flying.
"Standard" TS Action
TS3: 230%
TS2: 200%
TS1: 170%
Neutronic TS Action
TS3: 360%
TS2: 240%
TS1: 120%
That +40% difference wouldn't really stand out with any sort of casual use with TS2. The +130% at TS3 would stand out like a sore thumb with continual use. The TS1 would probably lead to folks ditching the torp pretty fast with the -50%.
Even the +130% of the TS3 is nothing compared to what the TS3 E-Bio was doing which would have been around +172.5%. And if all seven of the buggers crit - lol - yeah, you noticed that...
...well, unless you were firing them at somebody in a Sci Vessel with 16-20k shields or at anybody with AtD - where they'd just laugh at you throwing cottonballs at them.
Lots of folks make torps out to be useless - that they still do, in this day and age of all sorts of bleed and debuff stacking is a might bit peculiar.
Even if the Neutronic is corrected to be 230% with a TS3 instead of 360%...it's got a base of ~1830 vs. the 1503 of Quants. That's ignoring the fun to be had from the Rad stacking. Cause as noted, the torps from a spread hit at an interval and while the shields will have the innate Kinetic resistance - you're going to be having the Rad hits as well (they hit both shields and hull) working down the shields some as well.
You'll get back into the Sci Vessel insane shields (then again, my Cruiser has almost 16k shields) and anybody running AtD, which they're likely running anyway for a variety of reasons with all the kinetic damage out there and PH/BFI/etc being chewed away - options are good and all that...
...but again, there's just so much one can do to get their torps to the hull and then doing all sorts of fun damage there.
They're not going to be DPS juggernauts - but spike...do a TS of Neuts/HY of Quants stack after timing the EWO'd BO with some Kinetic Precision, Armor Penetration, Intelligence Fleet, having dropped out some debuffs - having others stacked some debuffs - maybe coming in with an Improved Ambush supplemented by Sub in a boat with Flanking while also working in some Space Flanking...and the list just goes on and on and on...
Folks have a tendency of not putting the least bit of effort into their torps and expecting them to perform anywhere near their Energy Weapons where they've put all sorts of massive effort...and I've never understood that.
With all the bugs that are years old - with all the new bugs they introduce with some of the torps but not others they introduce at the same time (the initial comparison there was with the Corrosive Plasma which was introduced at the same time)...they seriously just need to a torp revamp and decide where they want them to be - and then take it from there.
Still ticks me off that the Elachi/Chrons/Trans have TRIBBLE TS/HY bonuses compared to the other torps.
They just need to say, "This is what we want torps to be like..." and get it all straightened out.
Not going to happen...but hey, whatever...I'm just a guy with spreadsheets and notepad.
How is that abusing it though... I ask honestly.
The real issue with torps in general... is that every other weapon in the game is balanced on the assumption that everyone runs 3-5 dmg consoles on it.
For torps this is a massive issue... as most people want things to look like trek and have all there energy weapons and 1-2 torps plinking away...and they plan to never back them up with proper gear. So, should the devs create and balance a weapon for this player... the player that loves torps and runs something like a torp boat ends up being an "edge" case.
Don't ask me how to best fix that issue... but its always going to exist. Those of us that love torps run torpedo consoles yes... even torps that don't have a type like harpang can easily be bumped by standard +torp dmg consoles with the proper spire ones.
IMO the best fix (which will never happen) for torps in general... would be to reduce the dmg on ALL of them by around 30% and also increase the shield pen on all of them by around 30%... and double the bonus from ALL torpedo consoles. This way anyone running a torp is going to want to run at least 1-2 consoles... and full on torp boats will sure get a buff but the base dmg reduction should mostly even out there dmg... with the massive 200k stupid hits not being as likely, and in trade have a more uniform dmg to hull from them.
Anyway not sure why I bother theory crafting solutions... Cryptic isn't doing anything but adding more and more over powered weapons to the game from here out anyway. lol
VR Mk XII Neutronic vs. VR Mk XII Quantum...w/ TS3...minimal buffs otherwise.
Neutronic
Base 1830
Mk XII: +2196 = 4026
VR: +137.25 = 4163.25
9 SWT: +905.85 = 5069.1
9 SWPT: +905.85 = 5974.95
TS3 (360%): *3.6 = 21509.82
Quantum
Base: 1503
Mk XII: +1803.6 = 3306.6
VR: +112.725 = 3419.325
9 SWT: +743.985 = 4163.31
9 SWPT: +743.985 = 4907.295
5x Gold Adv Tac: +2818.125 = 7725.42
TS3 (230%): *2.3 = 17768.466
You'd be better off running the Neutronic than the Quantum with 5x Gold Adv Tac consoles.
That should kind of stand out as a problem.
But then there's also this...
Neutronic
Base 1830
Mk XII: +2196 = 4026
VR: +137.25 = 4163.25
9 SWT: +905.85 = 5069.1
9 SWPT: +905.85 = 5974.95
5x Gold Adv Tac: +3431.25 = 9406.2
TS1 (120%): *1.2 = 11287.44
Quantum
Base: 1503
Mk XII: +1803.6 = 3306.6
VR: +112.725 = 3419.325
9 SWT: +743.985 = 4163.31
9 SWPT: +743.985 = 4907.295
5x Gold Adv Tac: +2818.125 = 7725.42
TS1 (170%): *1.7 = 13133.214
The TS3 Neutronic w/0 consoles does 3741.354 more damage than the TS3 Quantums w/5x Gold consoles.
The TS1 Neutronic w/5x Gold consoles does 1845.774 less damage than the TS1 Quantums w/5x Gold Consoles.
Cause the TS1 buff for Neutronics is ~50% less than it should be. It's not just the TS3 being ~130% too much or the TS2 being ~40% too much...the TS1 is ~50% too little.
Also, if the Neutronic were 230% at TS3...then with the 5x consoles for each, you'd be looking at:
Neut 21634.26
Quant 17768.466
The Neut would still 3865.794 more damage than the Quantums...because the Neut still has ~21.76% more base damage. Which is "balanced" by it having the 15s base CD on the recharge vs. the 8s of the Quantum...when you add in the "specials" the Neutronic also has, etc, etc, etc.
It's still going to be the better torpedo in that instance, and it's also going to be why it's a special item where only one can be equipped.
But it's not going to be the "The TS3 Neutronic w/0 consoles does 3741.354 more damage than the TS3 Quantums w/5x Gold consoles." torpedo that it is now. Heck, with it at 360% with 5x Gold, it would be doing 33862.32 compared to that 17768.466 of the Quants...a 16093.854 difference.
And those numbers are low - work in the rest of the buffs, debuffs, having it crit - yadda, yadda, yadda.
The current TS3 of Neutronics is doing ~191% the damage of a TS3 of Quants - that's just working off the base damage and the damage boosts from the TS3, no other buffs. The way it works with the various ratios, that percentage would remain the same - just the amount reflected by that percentage will change - work in all the buffs, debuffs, crits, etc - the Neutronics would still be ~191% of whatever value you came up for with the Quantums.
And at the same time, the TS1 of Neutronics will always end up doing ~86% the damage of a TS1 of Quantums...
It's all sorts of jacked up from TS3 to TS1...
Oh it's a quantum? Well I still hope they nerf it because it looks dumb.
Maybe I was mistaken and you just hate torp spread. :P
I wish they would straighten out torps too, but I think we might still differ in position. People expect torps to perform like energy weapons because torps are physically denied from standing on their own. At the very most you can do a hybrid torp mine boat which can be pretty killer in PVP but falls way short on the games total damage measure(plus those new elite difficulty shields that tank FAW gods). I personally wish we would get the same or better performance if you spec into torps because that's a huge opportunity cost often wasted in pve or decent in pvp if you're not using the latest shiny which might get nerfed because of a certain poster who just might be in this thread right now. Since we can both agree Cryptic probably isn't going to address torpedo inferiority can we just let the next canon looking super torpedo fly?
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I don't agree with this "balancing" solution, even though I do agree with your opinion that someone that makes a ship around a weapon type should do damage with that weapon and shouldn't be considered an exploiter(be it cannons, beams or torpedos).
All my ships have torpedo of sort, but shield penetration on them should be low to 0%
The moment you start adding high shield penetration to torpedoes you completely break the
shield-hull mechanic, as in that you are able to do damage with torps without need for even one tactical console or even uni-torp boosting console. timing or effort.
If it were so you could make a full-on SCI/Intel AoE debuffer with all cheese clickies you could fit and without any DMG consoles and just using Spread as only attacking tactical ability, minimum weapon power and still kill/damage everything in sight just by cycling TS.
That way you would make full/only torp builds dangerous and it is just as stupid, as it not only breaks shield/hul mechanic, you break Buff/debuff timing mechanic because you always do some kind of damage no matter what with always-penetrating always-damaging torpedos in always-cloaked torp-spamming ships with minimum effort.
Also, chroniton/rad sci spammers are only viable because torps have shield penetration higher then 0%.
Perfect mechanic for killing with torps is fine as it is(was), drop shield facing- shoot hull with torp - boom.
For that you need energy weapons, timing, buffs, debuffs, consoles, whole setup.
Everything else is easy mode for the PvE masses.(and we all are in PvE now until leveling is done)
Only way i could approve of penetrating torps is if penetration was a BOFF skill.
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Perhaps the better fix would be to not add shield pen but rather shield dmg.
Right now shields resist almost completely torpedo dmg. (I seem to remember in the shows when they would get slammed by torps they still reported shields down to X% all the time.)
Perhaps the fix is more
30% less base dmg on all torps.
50% less resistance on all shields.
And a doubling of the numbers on Torpedo consoles.
(the exact numbers would likely have to be played around with) I think the idea is solid though. make torpedos dmg shields... still in a much less effective way then energy weapons.
I think that would make them much more viable on almost every ship. (not just to proc stupid things like VM torp and Rep torp debuffs). By making the console attractive you also promote more balanced ship designs.
The torp boat min max... would end up being very much on par with min maxed energy if done right.
A few of the main issues would be some of the rep torps that still have some really crazy 100% proc chance debuffs on them... I guess that wouldn't change though its already in game.
Regardless not sure the conversation matters at this point... pvp wise the game is pretty much unplayable anyway sadly.
QFT. Left the game late last spring after having played on/off since Feb 2010 and, other than occasionally trolling the forums, am dun dun dun. Serious question though - been looking around: WoT (meh imo). MW (nah). SW just a space on the rails shooter last I heard, so nah. SC is still a fair ways off it seems. SO any good space combat sims to be had? Not necessarily MMO, even single person? Any of the old ST titles worth picking up? Thanks in advance.
Kill Feddie.
Waff
Projectiles benefit from the increased Shield Penetration offered by the EWO BO Pen DOFFs - each VR has a 30% chance for 35% bleed. Can be a BO1 with min Weapon Power, no Energy Weapon buffs, and even a Mk II VR [Acc]x3 to make sure it hits...
Nanite Disruptors can proc a 2% bleed and a -5 DRR hull debuff.
There is a R&D trait from the Projectiles School, Kinetic Precision, that gives 10% bleed.
Intelligence Fleet 2 provides not only provides 15% bleed but also 15% armor penetration.
Heck, speaking of Projectiles and Shields - Destabilized Emitters from the Intel Specialization tree can proc shield drains on the rear arc when using Projectiles. Elite Fleet Disruptors can weaken a shield's damage reduction. The Neutronic torps include a power drain, which in turn will reduce shield damage reduction from Shield Power.
And well, I'm not awake yet and don't have enough caffeine in me to reply in as coherent manner or with a pseudo complete list...
...but uh, we're well past your concern there - well, outside of the effort. Most folks go loltorps and don't even give them a second thought. There was all sorts of "fun" things you could do with them even before the R&D stuff and everything dropped out since then...it's just gotten more "fun" since then.
Bleed doesn't care if somebody's got 15-20k shields. SNB stripping AtD's been joined by Gather Intel and stripping Eng buffs.
You mix that in with some Exotic...and voila, where things have been going for well over a year.
But Cryptic hasn't been all one-sided about it...look at all the escapes they've added so folks can try to get away from that mix of TS/HY torps, some mines, some R-TBR, with a coating of EWP/Theta, while the GW's pounding away, the Spatial Charges are being dropped, and all the rest...got escapes out the wahzoo - they're not for getting away from cannons, lol...plink-plink doesn't warrant that compared to the nightmare one can bring otherwise.
Naturally, I claim all credit.
Ladies and gents, there you have it.
Naturally, it takes Virus dropping some math to cut to the chase. The way to get things done.
How not to get things done: Ignorant hearsay, wishful thinking, gut feelings, L2P/noob mockery.
*stumbles across the room to find some Alka-Seltzer*
Seriously. As if vapers weren't offensive enough?
But to actually contribute, changing the mechanics of torpedo damage is just homogenizing the damage types. No one would ever mix energy and kinetic.
I'm not saying that everyone that mixes them now does so to maximize kills outside of PVP. They are pretty strictly flavor only. Inside of PVP they should remain a niche build, not a spammed ability. I hope that made sense. I need coffee.
EDIT: The blue stuff means "I agree 100%"
nothin new.