And yet, as Captain Picard said in 'Symbosis', "it is not our job to impose Federation or Earth values on other cultures."
The fact that it is personally unacceptable is irrelevant, regardless of faction; we're helping them, and even if we weren't, we have no right to say their way of life is unacceptable, period. Personal discomfort, lines that can't be crossed with us, easily.
You seem to think that everybody in the Federation, and Starfleet, are some sort of utopian, collectivist hive mind.
Don't think for a moment that Starfleet won't go apes*** if the Kobali started harvesting UFP casualties. And you are naive to think that there are no member races of the Federation that would find the Kobali's practices disgusting and unacceptable. Member races that have reps on the Council, which is central to the Federation's central government. The same government that Starfleet takes it's marching orders from.
The fact of the matter is if the Kobali didn't fit in the Alliance's strategic aims in the Delta Quadrant, Starfleet wouldn't have people on the ground dying in their little war with the Vaadwaur.
It's 2410 in the STO timeline. There are, more than likely, people in Starfleet who don't give a damn about some high and mighty declaration made by a single captain over forty years earlier.
I know I wouldn't. And my personal head canon regarding my Starfleet characters has them doing the same.
You seem to think that everybody in the Federation, and Starfleet, are some sort of utopian, collectivist hive mind.
Don't think for a moment that Starfleet won't go apes*** if the Kobali started harvesting UFP casualties. And you are naive to think that there are no member races of the Federation that would find the Kobali's practices disgusting and unacceptable. Member races that have reps on the Council, which is central to the Federation's central government. The same government that Starfleet takes it's marching orders from.
The fact of the matter is if the Kobali didn't fit in the Alliance's strategic aims in the Delta Quadrant, Starfleet wouldn't have people on the ground dying in their little war with the Vaadwaur.
It's 2410 in the STO timeline. There are, more than likely, people in Starfleet who don't give a damn about some high and mighty declaration made by a single captain over forty years earlier.
I know I wouldn't. And my personal head canon regarding my Starfleet characters has them doing the same.
Exactly. My Character does not live for Picards beliefs. Hes spent the last 5 years in a state of war. Hes lost friends, loved ones and men/women who served under his command. To him and an extension me. Their bodies, soulless as they may be, are to be respected and treated with dignity.
And you hit the nail on the head. The only reason the Kobali are to be tolerated is their usefulness in the Vaadwuur Conflict. When Kim and Janeway came to realize what they had done to Ballard they were appalled. Even went as far as firing on the Kobali over the situation at hand. The Kobali are definitely not the bad guys. But the episode featuring the Kobali made it plain as day that what they were doing was not okay. If they didnt fall smack in the middle of this situation with the Vaadwuur the Federation would no doubt be butting heads with the Kobali.
I have to agree wholeheartedly. I hate the writing on these stories. It's poorly done. It's ramming this character story down our throats. We're helping, aiding, and actively reinforcing and supporting a hideous scare-the-TRIBBLE-out-of-kids-at-night monster from the movie era. They are worse than vampries and frankensteins put together. Just because they claim what they are doing honors the dead doesn't make it so. No, Star Trek has always been about morals and values. Whether there's a tug-of-war on how to deal with another society's gender roles (TNG) or how they try to leave a legacy after their society has died (ENT) or a number of other issues. However, this is all minor and in an area that is open to debate. The main common thread is the sanctity of life and personal choice and the way each species handles its own mortality. The Kobali? They're violating all of that. As a way of life. The stupid "prime directive" doesn't even come into play here. They're an advanced warp-travelling species.
And with the way they act? They're worse than the borg, which also use the dead of other species.
This is just poor cryptic writing on top of poor Voyager writing. It turns my stomach to even play this dren. Who would have thought NEELIX would be the highlight of DR so far? Two wrongs don't make a right.
They do, apparently, make a STO story. Two updates in a row, no less.
Seriously, the whole "Klingon value their dead" only goes so far as the soul in Sto-Vo-Kor. As far as the corpse, I seem to recall it said:
Doctor Beverly Crusher: Is there any special arrangement you would like for the body?
Captain Korris: It is only an empty shell now. Please treat it as such.
Meaning they don't appear to care what happens to their corpses.
Said 3 times during that episode no less.
Doesn't make your interpretation valid, as a Klingon would want the soul to remain in Sto-Vo-Kor - And we know at least something on some level gets brought back with the necromancy the Kobali do.
If only we as players were able to weigh in on that in the missions in question, in any meaningful way.
I was so railroaded in DR, I'm pretty sure the only answers available I had in the end was "Tchoo Tchoo". Maybe it was not the answer I had, but it really felt it was.
Doesn't make your interpretation valid, as a Klingon would want the soul to remain in Sto-Vo-Kor - And we know at least something on some level gets brought back with the necromancy the Kobali do.
Well... Kobali-Ballard demonstrated, that those resurrected by the Kobali have only part of the mamories of the original person. So, maybe not.
Lets all be thankful that we haven't met any real aliens in our "actual" galaxy just yet then.
based on these comments we'd likely end up getting ourselves killed due to judging "alien" races by our own races standards...quite silly really. yes lets impose "humanity" on people when we cant even impose it on ourselves yay
err have you guys seen the world recently? do we even have standards anymore?
Exactly. My Character does not live for Picards beliefs. Hes spent the last 5 years in a state of war. Hes lost friends, loved ones and men/women who served under his command. To him and an extension me. Their bodies, soulless as they may be, are to be respected and treated with dignity.
But it doesn't matter, does it? The Prime Directive is a thing, and you don't get to pass judgment on an entire species and its way of life because it's icky to you, because that's not how Starfleet works.
The artist formerly known as PlanetofHats.
Actual join date: Open beta, 2009ish.
But it doesn't matter, does it? The Prime Directive is a thing, and you don't get to pass judgment on an entire species and its way of life because it's icky to you, because that's not how Starfleet works.
On the subject of the Prime Directive.....
The Starfleet of 2410 treats General Order One is the same manner as the Starfleet of Kirk's time.
In other words, as long as you don't give a bunch of medieval level bumpkins M.A.C.O. compression phaser rifles, it's subject to interpretation based on the situation.
That's why Starfleet is fighting on the Kobali homeworld in the first place.
In the Next Generation era, it became some sort of broad reaching, holy writ that was an excuse to stick their proverbial heads in the sand. It made for some good morality and ethical plays, though (depending on how good the episode's writer was).
However, after the Borg and Dominion, General Order One became something of a subject of interpretation again. Especially if it meant doing the right thing. Or if the security of the Federation was at stake.
In canon, Picard, Sisko, and Janeway committed what would be violations in the Dominion War era, under the pre-Borg ideal of the Prime Directive.
In STO, the Federation of early TNG era wouldn't have lifted a finger to help Obisek, launched preemptive strikes, and would have simply beefed up internal defenses in response to the Iconian conspiracy, rather than taking aggressive measures. The Empire and Republic, military-wise, would have been all by their lonesome in the Delta Quadrant, with the Federation only offering "humanitarian aid" and "logistical support".
Things change. And the Federation isn't some sort of hive mind, with Starfleet regulations etched in stone, in shining golden letters, with angels singing on high above them. Sometimes, you have to go with the flow and follow the idea of "Thou SHALL butt in".
On the subject of the rest, the Federation's basic principles still exist. If what a culture does runs counter to those principles, then necessity (political and strategic) alone dictates that Starfleet pursue dealings with said culture in a friendly manner (See: Son'a). But that doesn't mean that Starfleet has to show absolute tolerance for their actions. If the Kobali want Federation contributions to the Alliance efforts on their behalf, then they have to give something in return. In other words, stop using the corpses of other races (especially their allies and neutral parties) without permission, and respecting their wishes if they say no.
And now that they have the Delta Expeditionary Force's full military support, there is no more need to harvest those of their enemies in the Federation wants to push that issue. If they refuse, then obviously they don't feel the need for Starfleet's contribution (not speaking for the KDF or RRF here). If they didn't have a need for the Kobali, then Starfleet would be correct in just packing up their toys and looking elsewhere, based on that alone.
Lets all be thankful that we haven't met any real aliens in our "actual" galaxy just yet then.
based on these comments we'd likely end up getting ourselves killed due to judging "alien" races by our own races standards...quite silly really. yes lets impose "humanity" on people when we cant even impose it on ourselves yay
Hell, they even touched on stuff like this in Star Trek VI.
CHEKOV: We do believe all planets have a sovereign claim to inalienable human rights.
AZETBUR: Inalien... If only you could hear yourselves. 'Human rights.' Why the very name is racist. The Federation is no more than a 'homo sapiens' only club.
I like that people are uncomfortable with the kobali. That some plot points resonate and get people to draw lines is fun. They don't bother me, though I do think they are kinda dumb for not solving their problem long ago. There's seriously not a single race willing to trade bodies for something the kobali have?
Here on earth today we have 7.269 billion people, and the world health organization gives a crude death average for 2014 of 7.89 per 1,000. So roughly 57 million people die per year, or 150,000 a day.
If even a fraction of those were willing to donate their body to help a race avoid extinction, say half of one percent, it would be more people per day than the entire scenario on kobali prime deals with and thats been going on for months. Unless i misread, it seems the issue is over a few thousand bodies. The federation as a whole ought to be able to find more than enough people willing to donate bodies that kobali reproduction is a non-issue.
But then, I also felt the same when kirk killed Apollo. Couldn't figure out why no one thought to ask earth for a few volunteers.
Yeah, high and mighty when everything is okay, Humans love to judge, but when their backs are against the walls, they are the first to rewrite their own laws, and rules to save their own TRIBBLE. But a race who need to survive, by taking the dead that the Humans most of the time put into the ground to rot or shoot into space, ohh no that's bad....I would think if they killed people for the purpose of turning them into Kobali then yeah, but they are not even doing that while they are being bombed.
Quark says it best
"Let me tell you something about Hew-mons, nephew. They're a wonderful, friendly people as long as their bellies are full and their holosuites are working. But take away their creature comforts... deprive them of food, sleep, sonic showers... put their lives in jeopardy over an extended period of time... and those same friendly, intelligent, wonderful people will become as nasty and violent as the most bloodthirsty Klingon. You don't believe me? Look at those faces, look at their eyes..."
Yeah, high and mighty when everything is okay, Humans love to judge, but when their backs are against the walls, they are the first to rewrite their own laws, and rules to save their own TRIBBLE. But a race who need to survive, by taking the dead that the Humans most of the time put into the ground to rot or shoot into space, ohh no that's bad....I would think if they killed people for the purpose of turning them into Kobali then yeah, but they are not even doing that while they are being bombed.
Quark says it best
"Let me tell you something about Hew-mons, nephew. They're a wonderful, friendly people as long as their bellies are full and their holosuites are working. But take away their creature comforts... deprive them of food, sleep, sonic showers... put their lives in jeopardy over an extended period of time... and those same friendly, intelligent, wonderful people will become as nasty and violent as the most bloodthirsty Klingon. You don't believe me? Look at those faces, look at their eyes..."
Comments
Seriously, the whole "Klingon value their dead" only goes so far as the soul in Sto-Vo-Kor. As far as the corpse, I seem to recall it said:
Doctor Beverly Crusher: Is there any special arrangement you would like for the body?
Captain Korris: It is only an empty shell now. Please treat it as such.
Meaning they don't appear to care what happens to their corpses.
You seem to think that everybody in the Federation, and Starfleet, are some sort of utopian, collectivist hive mind.
Don't think for a moment that Starfleet won't go apes*** if the Kobali started harvesting UFP casualties. And you are naive to think that there are no member races of the Federation that would find the Kobali's practices disgusting and unacceptable. Member races that have reps on the Council, which is central to the Federation's central government. The same government that Starfleet takes it's marching orders from.
The fact of the matter is if the Kobali didn't fit in the Alliance's strategic aims in the Delta Quadrant, Starfleet wouldn't have people on the ground dying in their little war with the Vaadwaur.
It's 2410 in the STO timeline. There are, more than likely, people in Starfleet who don't give a damn about some high and mighty declaration made by a single captain over forty years earlier.
I know I wouldn't. And my personal head canon regarding my Starfleet characters has them doing the same.
Exactly. My Character does not live for Picards beliefs. Hes spent the last 5 years in a state of war. Hes lost friends, loved ones and men/women who served under his command. To him and an extension me. Their bodies, soulless as they may be, are to be respected and treated with dignity.
And you hit the nail on the head. The only reason the Kobali are to be tolerated is their usefulness in the Vaadwuur Conflict. When Kim and Janeway came to realize what they had done to Ballard they were appalled. Even went as far as firing on the Kobali over the situation at hand. The Kobali are definitely not the bad guys. But the episode featuring the Kobali made it plain as day that what they were doing was not okay. If they didnt fall smack in the middle of this situation with the Vaadwuur the Federation would no doubt be butting heads with the Kobali.
And with the way they act? They're worse than the borg, which also use the dead of other species.
This is just poor cryptic writing on top of poor Voyager writing. It turns my stomach to even play this dren. Who would have thought NEELIX would be the highlight of DR so far? Two wrongs don't make a right.
They do, apparently, make a STO story. Two updates in a row, no less.
Said 3 times during that episode no less.
Doesn't make your interpretation valid, as a Klingon would want the soul to remain in Sto-Vo-Kor - And we know at least something on some level gets brought back with the necromancy the Kobali do.
I also like that allying with them raises uncomfortable issues.
It's almost like a weekly television series that pushes its viewers to ponder moral, philosophical, and social issues.
;-)
Get me some proper NPC style Kobali ears and head shape in the character editor and I'll convert my captain.
In my Star Trek? I roll to disbelieve!
My character Tsin'xing
Lets all be thankful that we haven't met any real aliens in our "actual" galaxy just yet then.
based on these comments we'd likely end up getting ourselves killed due to judging "alien" races by our own races standards...quite silly really. yes lets impose "humanity" on people when we cant even impose it on ourselves yay
err have you guys seen the world recently? do we even have standards anymore?
But it doesn't matter, does it? The Prime Directive is a thing, and you don't get to pass judgment on an entire species and its way of life because it's icky to you, because that's not how Starfleet works.
Actual join date: Open beta, 2009ish.
Yes, something on some level.
Klingons don't care about what happens to corpses. They're just empty shells.
Romulans also do not seem to care that much.
Actual join date: Open beta, 2009ish.
On the subject of the Prime Directive.....
The Starfleet of 2410 treats General Order One is the same manner as the Starfleet of Kirk's time.
In other words, as long as you don't give a bunch of medieval level bumpkins M.A.C.O. compression phaser rifles, it's subject to interpretation based on the situation.
That's why Starfleet is fighting on the Kobali homeworld in the first place.
In the Next Generation era, it became some sort of broad reaching, holy writ that was an excuse to stick their proverbial heads in the sand. It made for some good morality and ethical plays, though (depending on how good the episode's writer was).
However, after the Borg and Dominion, General Order One became something of a subject of interpretation again. Especially if it meant doing the right thing. Or if the security of the Federation was at stake.
In canon, Picard, Sisko, and Janeway committed what would be violations in the Dominion War era, under the pre-Borg ideal of the Prime Directive.
In STO, the Federation of early TNG era wouldn't have lifted a finger to help Obisek, launched preemptive strikes, and would have simply beefed up internal defenses in response to the Iconian conspiracy, rather than taking aggressive measures. The Empire and Republic, military-wise, would have been all by their lonesome in the Delta Quadrant, with the Federation only offering "humanitarian aid" and "logistical support".
Things change. And the Federation isn't some sort of hive mind, with Starfleet regulations etched in stone, in shining golden letters, with angels singing on high above them. Sometimes, you have to go with the flow and follow the idea of "Thou SHALL butt in".
On the subject of the rest, the Federation's basic principles still exist. If what a culture does runs counter to those principles, then necessity (political and strategic) alone dictates that Starfleet pursue dealings with said culture in a friendly manner (See: Son'a). But that doesn't mean that Starfleet has to show absolute tolerance for their actions. If the Kobali want Federation contributions to the Alliance efforts on their behalf, then they have to give something in return. In other words, stop using the corpses of other races (especially their allies and neutral parties) without permission, and respecting their wishes if they say no.
And now that they have the Delta Expeditionary Force's full military support, there is no more need to harvest those of their enemies in the Federation wants to push that issue. If they refuse, then obviously they don't feel the need for Starfleet's contribution (not speaking for the KDF or RRF here). If they didn't have a need for the Kobali, then Starfleet would be correct in just packing up their toys and looking elsewhere, based on that alone.
Hell, they even touched on stuff like this in Star Trek VI.
CHEKOV: We do believe all planets have a sovereign claim to inalienable human rights.
AZETBUR: Inalien... If only you could hear yourselves. 'Human rights.' Why the very name is racist. The Federation is no more than a 'homo sapiens' only club.
That whole film was a freaking masterpiece.
Here on earth today we have 7.269 billion people, and the world health organization gives a crude death average for 2014 of 7.89 per 1,000. So roughly 57 million people die per year, or 150,000 a day.
If even a fraction of those were willing to donate their body to help a race avoid extinction, say half of one percent, it would be more people per day than the entire scenario on kobali prime deals with and thats been going on for months. Unless i misread, it seems the issue is over a few thousand bodies. The federation as a whole ought to be able to find more than enough people willing to donate bodies that kobali reproduction is a non-issue.
But then, I also felt the same when kirk killed Apollo. Couldn't figure out why no one thought to ask earth for a few volunteers.
Quark says it best
"Let me tell you something about Hew-mons, nephew. They're a wonderful, friendly people as long as their bellies are full and their holosuites are working. But take away their creature comforts... deprive them of food, sleep, sonic showers... put their lives in jeopardy over an extended period of time... and those same friendly, intelligent, wonderful people will become as nasty and violent as the most bloodthirsty Klingon. You don't believe me? Look at those faces, look at their eyes..."
That was one of quark's better moments.