The Vaadwaur may be horrible, but the Kobali are no saints themselves. It's a shame that the player and Kim's objections to the practice are so quickly brushed under the rug.
1) In the mission where the issue is 'resolved' One of the Kobali mentions offhand something to the affect that 'they wouldn't allow any more of the pods to fail'
2) We know that the apparent age of a kobali doesn't necessarily correspond to how long the corpse has been a kobali. A 'new' kobali doesn't look like an infant. The General's 'son' for example appears older.
3) The Kobali know that pretty much everyone finds this practice reprehensible, yet never seem to bother themselves to ask anyone if X body is available for resurrection.
4) We know that resurrected Kobali can sometimes inherent memories and mannerisms from the corpse. This has to be 'trained' out of them.
So we have a situation where defenseless civilians are being murdered by Kobali, some who will retain their memories briefly (which I'm sure will come as a shock and surprise to them when they are resurrected) before being brainwashed into being essential child soldiers.
Then we have the added horror of the same being done to Vaaudwar soldiers, which must be beyond horrifying to the ones who remember their former lives-since they know they will be brainwashed into fighting and killing their friends and comrades and dying (again) for the sake of their mortal enemies.
What the Vaaudwaur is doing reprehensible, but what the Kobali are doing is debatably even more horrifying-albeit on a psychological level. When the Tal Shiar reprogram people into being Tal Shiar and turning them on their family, friends, and comrades, it's horrible-the kobali should not get a free pass for doing essentially the same thing.
I started off liking the Kobali...but then I found out what they're doing underneath that "temple" of theirs. Nope, they can just die now. They are the reason for their own problems.
I don't really get the Kobali hate. It's not like anyone's using the corpses they're taking... it's just lifeless, rotting meat. It's just going to get stinkier and more rotten lying around in the ground, going to waste. You honestly can't tell me you still have further plans for your dead after you've buried them.
Yeah if they were attacking other planets and killing the populations to revive as Kobali I would get it.
And I also wonder if the people calling for the genocide of the Kobali might want to remeber what oil and coal are made from.
but rather that we are forced to HELP them and that we can not align ourselves with the Vaadwuar against the Kobali.
Becuase allying with the Vaadwuar means declaring war on the entire Delta Quadrant, not to mention the Romulan Republic after their (the Vaadwuar's) stunt in Capture the Flag. Or did you forget their attacking everyone else in the quadrant as well. I doubt Gaul would be open to just teaming up with him to fight one race and fighting against him in the rest of the Quadrant.
I suppose you'll want to make an alliance with the Iconians next and help them conqure and enslave the entire galaxy.
I started off liking the Kobali...but then I found out what they're doing underneath that "temple" of theirs. Nope, they can just die now. They are the reason for their own problems.
I am not that far in the storyline to know all the gory details, but it seems already that the Vaduvaar have people inside that "Temple" that may still be in stasis and the Kobali are keeping them.
Yes, that is problematic. It doesn't excuse killing some random Talaxians, but it means the Kobali are no saints.
However - are "all" the Kobali in on it, or want it that way? What other factions may exist? Is it the result of a sheer desperation of the Kobali? Whatever their ancestors did wrong so they had to adopt their strange life cycle - is it really fair to blame all the problems that created for the Kobali on the descendants?
And actually, isn't that temple saving the Kobali from the Vaaduvar? Because they don't want to destroy it, the Vaaduvar are forced into a brutal and costly ground combat - that may be horrendous, but still also means that the Delta Alliance and the Delta Races are in a much better position to defend themselves from the Vaaduvar than they would be if their enemy could just bombard the Kobali homeworld to dust.
Star Trek Online Advancement: You start with lowbie gear, you end with Lobi gear.
I am not that far in the storyline to know all the gory details, but it seems already that the Vaduvaar have people inside that "Temple" that may still be in stasis and the Kobali are keeping them.
Yes, that is problematic. It doesn't excuse killing some random Talaxians, but it means the Kobali are no saints.
However - are "all" the Kobali in on it, or want it that way? What other factions may exist? Is it the result of a sheer desperation of the Kobali? Whatever their ancestors did wrong so they had to adopt their strange life cycle - is it really fair to blame all the problems that created for the Kobali on the descendants?
And actually, isn't that temple saving the Kobali from the Vaaduvar? Because they don't want to destroy it, the Vaaduvar are forced into a brutal and costly ground combat - that may be horrendous, but still also means that the Delta Alliance and the Delta Races are in a much better position to defend themselves from the Vaaduvar than they would be if their enemy could just bombard the Kobali homeworld to dust.
There's a bit more to it than that going on. There's actually a whole storyline on Kobali Prime that isn't listed in the normal episode mission journal for some reason. As you level up, go back and check in with the General in the main city. He has the missions that aren't listed. One of them involves going into the temple with Harry Kim and finding out exactly what kind of funky business is going on in there.
1) In the mission where the issue is 'resolved' One of the Kobali mentions offhand something to the affect that 'they wouldn't allow any more of the pods to fail'
To save them, they'll likely need to take Kobali away from the front lines of a war to do so. Which would put a strain on resources. Remember, the Kobali aren't a plentiful people like say Romulans, Klingons, Humans or Tribbles. Though I've got more of this in response later on.
2) We know that the apparent age of a kobali doesn't necessarily correspond to how long the corpse has been a kobali. A 'new' kobali doesn't look like an infant. The General's 'son' for example appears older.
Yes, the person matches the corpse time of death. After all, that is the body that is used. If they used the body of a child, it would look like a child.
They aren't like us who get a choice of "oh hey, I get a bouncing baby boy". They just get to select a body that is dead. That is all.
3) The Kobali know that pretty much everyone finds this practice reprehensible, yet never seem to bother themselves to ask anyone if X body is available for resurrection.
Who would willing donate a dead body? And those that would, would make sure they are worst possible bodies given to them.
How many people would agree to having the body of someone they love be reused to make the body of another race? I mean most people in this thread are horrified by the prospect.
Most people think that they are desecrating the dead. "You've taken my beloved person and are using them" most would say. When that person is dead. Gone. Kaput. They are never, ever coming back. No matter how much you wish it.
4) We know that resurrected Kobali can sometimes inherent memories and mannerisms from the corpse. This has to be 'trained' out of them.
The body is dead. Anything that remains is leftovers from when that person was alive. Like if you delete a program on your hard drive, but there are residual files. Same thing. The program (you) is still gone.
Imagine for a second that you are placed into my body. My consciousness is not here, but my some of memories are. Assume that the you being placed into my body as a blank slate. Wouldn't you immediately think that those memories are yours? Wouldn't you believe that you are me, when you are in fact not me and never can be me?
It isn't that it needs to be trained out of them. It needs to be explained what the hell is going on.
So we have a situation where defenseless civilians are being murdered by Kobali, some who will retain their memories briefly (which I'm sure will come as a shock and surprise to them when they are resurrected) before being brainwashed into being essential child soldiers.
Not sure what defenseless civilians you mean. They are keeping the ones alive that are still alive, but the pods that fail they weren't actively trying to save those. The comment from before was into this matter.
Does that excuse them from not at least trying? No. It is terrible and points to them having just about cross the line of justifying someone dying which would lead to "why don't we kill them all". The code they lived by of waiting for someone to die would've been gone forever if they kept justifying letting people whose pods fail die without at least trying to save them.
However, it also is understandable why that happened. The Vaadwuar want to kill them for the bodies that are dead as dead can be, that they decided "yeah, if a pod fails, I'm not going to save them".
Basically you getting them to confirm they'll try saving the failing pods is getting them to step back away from that brink to being something a lot worse. Remember, they aren't actively killing people yet.
Then we have the added horror of the same being done to Vaaudwar soldiers, which must be beyond horrifying to the ones who remember their former lives-since they know they will be brainwashed into fighting and killing their friends and comrades and dying (again) for the sake of their mortal enemies.
The horror isn't that they are being brainwashed as I mentioned earlier. Remember, dead as dead can be. The Kobali take over only the dead body. This isn't like the Borg where you could still save the person from the Collective. The person is truly dead as dead can be when the Kobali take them. The Borg are just taking over control of the person and they can eventually be normal.
For now, the Kobali are being nice about it, taking only dead bodies, not actively trying to kill people. Though this battle with the Vaadwuar pushed them to the point of doing something that would lead them to think about just killing bodies randomly to get what they want.
What the Vaaudwaur is doing reprehensible, but what the Kobali are doing is debatably even more horrifying-albeit on a psychological level. When the Tal Shiar reprogram people into being Tal Shiar and turning them on their family, friends, and comrades, it's horrible-the kobali should not get a free pass for doing essentially the same thing.
An entirely different matter between the Tal Shiar, the Borg, the Elachi or any group that actually brainwashes the person or transforms something that is alive. Remember, the Kobali take the dead. And again, you can't brainwash something that is dead, because it is dead. They don't go out of their way to make dead bodies either, though they were getting to the tipping point there, otherwise there would be a lot of Kobali.
The only terrible thing the Kobali do is take dead bodies without asking permission. That is terrible because you are taking something that doesn't belong to you, claiming it as yours and not asking the people in question that the body belongs to.
I'm hoping that the Alliance find a way to make a cure for them so that they can reproduce naturally, though, because I would never ever want to be in that situation as a person or a race.
I'm hoping that the Alliance find a way to make a cure for them so that they can reproduce naturally, though, because I would never ever want to be in that situation as a person or a race.
Considering the Federation involvement its doubtful since that would probably require genetic engineering which the federation reacts to like a religious fundamentalist does to the theory of evolution.
Alpha-powers should just team up with Benthans and TRIBBLE the damn Kobali and Vaadwaur.
Hast thou not gone against sincerity
Hast thou not felt ashamed of thy words and deeds
Hast thou not lacked vigor
Hast thou exerted all possible efforts
Hast thou not become slothful
Zombie movie #6,000,000 comes out with dead coming from their graves and getting shot in the head = good times.
Imaginary alien race using the dead so they can keep species alive = horrible monstrosity.
I'm detecting a double standard here.
The spirit is gone off, he/she moved to your choice of paranormal paradise and is laughing it up with your Space Jesus. The body is now gonna get digested by various worms, parasites, and bacteria. But that's ok as long as some alien race doesn't come along and use that Biomatter to help their species stay alive long enough to maybe solve that problem.
Funny how often Humans ****ed up on their planet and they still have the audacity to say "they started this problem themselves, let em die".
How much garbage that takes more than a few years to decay have you made just this week?
In Zombie Movie #6000000. We shoot those corpses, can we shoot Kobali.
Hast thou not gone against sincerity
Hast thou not felt ashamed of thy words and deeds
Hast thou not lacked vigor
Hast thou exerted all possible efforts
Hast thou not become slothful
Considering the Federation involvement its doubtful since that would probably require genetic engineering which the federation reacts to like a religious fundamentalist does to the theory of evolution.
Not true.
Genetic engineering is perfectly acceptable in the Federation as medical treatment.
What the Federation has a Zero-Tolerance policy on is Genetic Enhancements.
I think we should have been given an option to help the vaadwaur. Just like romulans shouldn't be forced into joining the pansy, flower picking, kum ba yah singing republic. But that's another discussion.
Not true.
Genetic engineering is perfectly acceptable in the Federation as medical treatment.
What the Federation has a Zero-Tolerance policy on is Genetic Enhancements.
Even that is nebulous... It's apparently not a hard rule against tweaking people's DNA to improve it, but a certain type of genetic engineering. It actually strikes me as a racial phobia caused by Khan.
Not true.
Genetic engineering is perfectly acceptable in the Federation as medical treatment.
What the Federation has a Zero-Tolerance policy on is Genetic Enhancements.
when someone you love dies, one of the most important parts of the grieving process is the acceptance of the idea that your time with that person is over, that they are gone and you can never see them again. the catharsis of this emotional event usually marks the end of mourning, and the beginning of your new life without your love.
the Kobali method of reproduction turns that on its head. all of a sudden, your beloved is not gone forever, merely reanimated and turned into a lizard person. this destruction of the grieving process offends most people on a very basic level because it reopens a searingly painful emotional wound. I, for one, would go literally insane if my significant other was exhumed by aliens and alive again somewere i could never see them, forced to forget i existed.
Literally insane? Now you're just being silly. They're not even the same people afterwards.
however, if the kobali had "afterlife options"... an arrangement could be made.
if, for example, it would be permissible for one to euthanise themselves, and be remade a kobali alongside your deceased love with the emotional bonds to each other left intact, it could be an acceptable choice of afterlife for many people.
personally, i would just straight steal their bring back the dead technology and use it without the becoming a lizard with amnesia part, if it wasn't technically committing genocide to do that without fixing the Kobali reproductive problems first.
As forthegamer already said, it's like a reformatted hard drive. The person you knew is still gone, and the new person inhabiting the shell only has fragments of that previous person in their head. Some people claim something similar happens with organ donation, although it's never been scientifically proven.
Even in "Ashes to Ashes" they come to realize that "Ballard" isn't actually the same person she used to be, that that person was dead.
For all intents and purposes they are the same person. same body, same DNA (with some alterations) and in at least some cases, the same memories and personalities.
Remember, Picard was killed by a mintakan and later revived. Nobody seems to be debating if the revived Picard was really Picard afterwards. Borg can revive slain drones up to 73 hours after death, and borg also erase prior personalities. yet a liberated borg is never questioned as being the 'real' individual, despite the often obvious personality differences.
At any rate, from Voyager, we know that if/when memory/personality resurfacing occurs, it can be a deeply traumatic event. Considering how much it freaked out the voyager crewmember who came back, one can imagine that the experience for a Vaaudwaur coming back would be easily much more horrifying. Particularly knowing that they would be brainwashed into being canon fodder for the Kobali. remember that Kobali do not tolerate risen kobali pursuing their old lives-they went as far to fire on Voyager to prevent this I ntheir first appearance.
And of course there's the fact that the Kobali are basically using resurrected Vaaudwaur as canon fodder/child soldiers. The vaudwaur invasion hasn't exactly been going on for years or anything, those 'numerous' former vaaudwaur are likely less than a month old at the most.
it's funny that the Kobali consider the resurrection to be a 'blessing' yet have no problem immediately pressing those newborns into the military immediately for almost certain death. Also funny that Kobali frown on taking revenge on those who brought about their first death, yet have no problem siccing therir kids on their former comerades and friends...
The whole thing stinks, and as interesting as I find the concept of the Kobali, their behavior in Delta Rising is extremely reprehensible.
I'm fairly certain the Klingons like their corpses to remain Klingon... and preferably dead...
its a intresting dilema isnt it.
since Klingons believe that warriors who die in battle go to stovokor if the Kobali use corpses to make their people and these people retain some of their personality's after the process, when haven't they denied that warrior a place in the glorious afterlife?
I for one know my Klingon would be crying foul against them.
Also why didn't they just make New talaks a adventure zone?
"It appears we have lost our sex appeal, captain."- Tuvok
Well, well well looks like the finale to Kobali Prime missions has them deciding on their own not to continue using the Vaadwuar to make new Kobali and are going to start asking permission before doing so to anyone else's dead.
Literally insane? Now you're just being silly. They're not even the same people afterwards.
As forthegamer already said, it's like a reformatted hard drive. The person you knew is still gone, and the new person inhabiting the shell only has fragments of that previous person in their head. Some people claim something similar happens with organ donation, although it's never been scientifically proven.
Even in "Ashes to Ashes" they come to realize that "Ballard" isn't actually the same person she used to be, that that person was dead.
What episode of Voyager involving Kobali were you watching? Because the one I watched involved a character that actually remembered who they were. And struggled with their changes. The only reason they decided to return with the Kobali was because they essentially gave in.
Ballard was still very much Ballard all the way up to the moment the writers decided they needed a reason for her to go back with the Kobali.
Well, well well looks like the finale to Kobali Prime missions has them deciding on their own not to continue using the Vaadwuar to make new Kobali and are going to start asking permission before doing so to anyone else's dead.
So they deserve to die why exactly?
If that's the case, then no harm, no foul.
But desecration of the dead (i.e. not getting permission/grave robbing) is unacceptable.
What episode of Voyager involving Kobali were you watching? Because the one I watched involved a character that actually remembered who they were. And struggled with their changes. The only reason they decided to return with the Kobali was because they essentially gave in.
Ballard was still very much Ballard all the way up to the moment the writers decided they needed a reason for her to go back with the Kobali.
She didn't "give in", she realized that her old self died and it was time to move on. Pretty much the grieving process directed inward.
since Klingons believe that warriors who die in battle go to stovokor if the Kobali use corpses to make their people and these people retain some of their personality's after the process, when haven't they denied that warrior a place in the glorious afterlife?
I for one know my Klingon would be crying foul against them.
Also why didn't they just make New talaks a adventure zone?
Because if they made New Talax the adventure zone we wouldn't be having this conversation, which proves that the story was good enough to foster a reaction.
But desecration of the dead (i.e. not getting permission/grave robbing) is unacceptable.
And yet, as Captain Picard said in 'Symbosis', "it is not our job to impose Federation or Earth values on other cultures."
The fact that it is personally unacceptable is irrelevant, regardless of faction; we're helping them, and even if we weren't, we have no right to say their way of life is unacceptable, period. Personal discomfort, lines that can't be crossed with us, easily.
Was named Trek17.
Been playing STO since Open Beta, and have never regarded anything as worse than 'meh', if only due to personal standards.
And yet, as Captain Picard said in 'Symbosis', "it is not our job to impose Federation or Earth values on other cultures."
The fact that it is personally unacceptable is irrelevant, regardless of faction; we're helping them, and even if we weren't, we have no right to say their way of life is unacceptable, period. Personal discomfort, lines that can't be crossed with us, easily.
That's a fine and dandy attitude if you are playing Starfleet, but many folks are flying for the KDF or Romulan Republic.
If any modern-day power on earth had the know-how and the will to do what the Kobali are doing to their enemies bodies, it would undoubtedly be considered a war crime.
Besides, it's not as if the Kobali's practices start and end within their own societies, they explicitly use the bodies of other space-faring cultures without consent. Their right to practice their own culture ends when they impose it on others. Remember, Janeway wasn't willing to give up her Kobali when her 'parents' came knocking, just to uphold their cultural values. So Federation characters very much have a precedent to voice their displeasure over the Kobali practices.
Part of what I find interesting about revisiting the Delta Quadrant is that we're now free to evaluate the native species on a basis other than "are they or are they not useful to our stated goal of getting home."
Playing a Klingon Captain, I can remember sitting in on one of the most sacred observances of my character's people's culture... a wake, where we stand guard to keep animals from getting at the body of the deceased. The thought of the Kobali desecrating the corpses of Klingon warriors, wiping away their identities with some biochemical necromancy, can only be anathema to me. These creatures are a nightmare, and whatever they did to sterilize themselves long ago, they should be working toward fixing that instead of finding a safe place to besmirch the graves of other societies.
It's merely a happy coincidence that the forces they've outraged lately on Kobali Prime are the new featured episode's central antagonists. They could have just as easily been violating the remains of the Talaxians. No, I've done enough Kobali content to be able to find the stasis pods they're desecrating in their "temple." For the rest of this expansion, these honorless petaQs are on their own, as far as I'm concerned. I'm willing to refrain from bombing them from orbit if doing so would distract this Klingon/Starfleet/Romulan Alliance from dealing with the real enemy, but the Kobali get no love from me. The next one that looks at me funny gets Five Fingers of Klingon Justice, right in the snot locker.
I really lost my taste for the Kobali when I found out they weren't just using the bodies left in the temple, but were also using the ones our crews were killing to "protect" them.
And yet, as Captain Picard said in 'Symbosis', "it is not our job to impose Federation or Earth values on other cultures."
The fact that it is personally unacceptable is irrelevant, regardless of faction; we're helping them, and even if we weren't, we have no right to say their way of life is unacceptable, period. Personal discomfort, lines that can't be crossed with us, easily.
And yet, as Captain Picard said in 'Symbosis', "it is not our job to impose Federation or Earth values on other cultures."
The fact that it is personally unacceptable is irrelevant, regardless of faction; we're helping them, and even if we weren't, we have no right to say their way of life is unacceptable, period. Personal discomfort, lines that can't be crossed with us, easily.
You seem to think that everybody in the Federation, and Starfleet, are some sort of utopian, collectivist hive mind.
Don't think for a moment that Starfleet won't go apes*** if the Kobali started harvesting UFP casualties. And you are naive to think that there are no member races of the Federation that would find the Kobali's practices disgusting and unacceptable. Member races that have reps on the Council, which is central to the Federation's central government. The same government that Starfleet takes it's marching orders from.
The fact of the matter is if the Kobali didn't fit in the Alliance's strategic aims in the Delta Quadrant, Starfleet wouldn't have people on the ground dying in their little war with the Vaadwaur.
It's 2410 in the STO timeline. There are, more than likely, people in Starfleet who don't give a damn about some high and mighty declaration made by a single captain over forty years earlier.
I know I wouldn't. And my personal head canon regarding my Starfleet characters has them doing the same.
Comments
1) In the mission where the issue is 'resolved' One of the Kobali mentions offhand something to the affect that 'they wouldn't allow any more of the pods to fail'
2) We know that the apparent age of a kobali doesn't necessarily correspond to how long the corpse has been a kobali. A 'new' kobali doesn't look like an infant. The General's 'son' for example appears older.
3) The Kobali know that pretty much everyone finds this practice reprehensible, yet never seem to bother themselves to ask anyone if X body is available for resurrection.
4) We know that resurrected Kobali can sometimes inherent memories and mannerisms from the corpse. This has to be 'trained' out of them.
So we have a situation where defenseless civilians are being murdered by Kobali, some who will retain their memories briefly (which I'm sure will come as a shock and surprise to them when they are resurrected) before being brainwashed into being essential child soldiers.
Then we have the added horror of the same being done to Vaaudwar soldiers, which must be beyond horrifying to the ones who remember their former lives-since they know they will be brainwashed into fighting and killing their friends and comrades and dying (again) for the sake of their mortal enemies.
What the Vaaudwaur is doing reprehensible, but what the Kobali are doing is debatably even more horrifying-albeit on a psychological level. When the Tal Shiar reprogram people into being Tal Shiar and turning them on their family, friends, and comrades, it's horrible-the kobali should not get a free pass for doing essentially the same thing.
Mine Trap Supporter
Yeah if they were attacking other planets and killing the populations to revive as Kobali I would get it.
And I also wonder if the people calling for the genocide of the Kobali might want to remeber what oil and coal are made from.
Becuase allying with the Vaadwuar means declaring war on the entire Delta Quadrant, not to mention the Romulan Republic after their (the Vaadwuar's) stunt in Capture the Flag. Or did you forget their attacking everyone else in the quadrant as well. I doubt Gaul would be open to just teaming up with him to fight one race and fighting against him in the rest of the Quadrant.
I suppose you'll want to make an alliance with the Iconians next and help them conqure and enslave the entire galaxy.
Yes, that is problematic. It doesn't excuse killing some random Talaxians, but it means the Kobali are no saints.
However - are "all" the Kobali in on it, or want it that way? What other factions may exist? Is it the result of a sheer desperation of the Kobali? Whatever their ancestors did wrong so they had to adopt their strange life cycle - is it really fair to blame all the problems that created for the Kobali on the descendants?
And actually, isn't that temple saving the Kobali from the Vaaduvar? Because they don't want to destroy it, the Vaaduvar are forced into a brutal and costly ground combat - that may be horrendous, but still also means that the Delta Alliance and the Delta Races are in a much better position to defend themselves from the Vaaduvar than they would be if their enemy could just bombard the Kobali homeworld to dust.
There's a bit more to it than that going on. There's actually a whole storyline on Kobali Prime that isn't listed in the normal episode mission journal for some reason. As you level up, go back and check in with the General in the main city. He has the missions that aren't listed. One of them involves going into the temple with Harry Kim and finding out exactly what kind of funky business is going on in there.
Mine Trap Supporter
Yes, the person matches the corpse time of death. After all, that is the body that is used. If they used the body of a child, it would look like a child.
They aren't like us who get a choice of "oh hey, I get a bouncing baby boy". They just get to select a body that is dead. That is all.
Who would willing donate a dead body? And those that would, would make sure they are worst possible bodies given to them.
How many people would agree to having the body of someone they love be reused to make the body of another race? I mean most people in this thread are horrified by the prospect.
Most people think that they are desecrating the dead. "You've taken my beloved person and are using them" most would say. When that person is dead. Gone. Kaput. They are never, ever coming back. No matter how much you wish it.
The body is dead. Anything that remains is leftovers from when that person was alive. Like if you delete a program on your hard drive, but there are residual files. Same thing. The program (you) is still gone.
Imagine for a second that you are placed into my body. My consciousness is not here, but my some of memories are. Assume that the you being placed into my body as a blank slate. Wouldn't you immediately think that those memories are yours? Wouldn't you believe that you are me, when you are in fact not me and never can be me?
It isn't that it needs to be trained out of them. It needs to be explained what the hell is going on.
Not sure what defenseless civilians you mean. They are keeping the ones alive that are still alive, but the pods that fail they weren't actively trying to save those. The comment from before was into this matter.
Does that excuse them from not at least trying? No. It is terrible and points to them having just about cross the line of justifying someone dying which would lead to "why don't we kill them all". The code they lived by of waiting for someone to die would've been gone forever if they kept justifying letting people whose pods fail die without at least trying to save them.
However, it also is understandable why that happened. The Vaadwuar want to kill them for the bodies that are dead as dead can be, that they decided "yeah, if a pod fails, I'm not going to save them".
Basically you getting them to confirm they'll try saving the failing pods is getting them to step back away from that brink to being something a lot worse. Remember, they aren't actively killing people yet.
The horror isn't that they are being brainwashed as I mentioned earlier. Remember, dead as dead can be. The Kobali take over only the dead body. This isn't like the Borg where you could still save the person from the Collective. The person is truly dead as dead can be when the Kobali take them. The Borg are just taking over control of the person and they can eventually be normal.
For now, the Kobali are being nice about it, taking only dead bodies, not actively trying to kill people. Though this battle with the Vaadwuar pushed them to the point of doing something that would lead them to think about just killing bodies randomly to get what they want.
An entirely different matter between the Tal Shiar, the Borg, the Elachi or any group that actually brainwashes the person or transforms something that is alive. Remember, the Kobali take the dead. And again, you can't brainwash something that is dead, because it is dead. They don't go out of their way to make dead bodies either, though they were getting to the tipping point there, otherwise there would be a lot of Kobali.
The only terrible thing the Kobali do is take dead bodies without asking permission. That is terrible because you are taking something that doesn't belong to you, claiming it as yours and not asking the people in question that the body belongs to.
I'm hoping that the Alliance find a way to make a cure for them so that they can reproduce naturally, though, because I would never ever want to be in that situation as a person or a race.
Considering the Federation involvement its doubtful since that would probably require genetic engineering which the federation reacts to like a religious fundamentalist does to the theory of evolution.
Hast thou not felt ashamed of thy words and deeds
Hast thou not lacked vigor
Hast thou exerted all possible efforts
Hast thou not become slothful
In Zombie Movie #6000000. We shoot those corpses, can we shoot Kobali.
Hast thou not felt ashamed of thy words and deeds
Hast thou not lacked vigor
Hast thou exerted all possible efforts
Hast thou not become slothful
Not true.
Genetic engineering is perfectly acceptable in the Federation as medical treatment.
What the Federation has a Zero-Tolerance policy on is Genetic Enhancements.
I think we should have been given an option to help the vaadwaur. Just like romulans shouldn't be forced into joining the pansy, flower picking, kum ba yah singing republic. But that's another discussion.
My character Tsin'xing
But Cybernetic enhancements are ok?
Oh so your Romulan character is one of THEM now.
Explains the neck condition actually
Well thats what they get for sleeping with their mouth open in a creepy cave while ignoring suspicious skittering sounds.
Literally insane? Now you're just being silly. They're not even the same people afterwards.
As forthegamer already said, it's like a reformatted hard drive. The person you knew is still gone, and the new person inhabiting the shell only has fragments of that previous person in their head. Some people claim something similar happens with organ donation, although it's never been scientifically proven.
Even in "Ashes to Ashes" they come to realize that "Ballard" isn't actually the same person she used to be, that that person was dead.
For all intents and purposes they are the same person. same body, same DNA (with some alterations) and in at least some cases, the same memories and personalities.
Remember, Picard was killed by a mintakan and later revived. Nobody seems to be debating if the revived Picard was really Picard afterwards. Borg can revive slain drones up to 73 hours after death, and borg also erase prior personalities. yet a liberated borg is never questioned as being the 'real' individual, despite the often obvious personality differences.
At any rate, from Voyager, we know that if/when memory/personality resurfacing occurs, it can be a deeply traumatic event. Considering how much it freaked out the voyager crewmember who came back, one can imagine that the experience for a Vaaudwaur coming back would be easily much more horrifying. Particularly knowing that they would be brainwashed into being canon fodder for the Kobali. remember that Kobali do not tolerate risen kobali pursuing their old lives-they went as far to fire on Voyager to prevent this I ntheir first appearance.
And of course there's the fact that the Kobali are basically using resurrected Vaaudwaur as canon fodder/child soldiers. The vaudwaur invasion hasn't exactly been going on for years or anything, those 'numerous' former vaaudwaur are likely less than a month old at the most.
it's funny that the Kobali consider the resurrection to be a 'blessing' yet have no problem immediately pressing those newborns into the military immediately for almost certain death. Also funny that Kobali frown on taking revenge on those who brought about their first death, yet have no problem siccing therir kids on their former comerades and friends...
The whole thing stinks, and as interesting as I find the concept of the Kobali, their behavior in Delta Rising is extremely reprehensible.
its a intresting dilema isnt it.
since Klingons believe that warriors who die in battle go to stovokor if the Kobali use corpses to make their people and these people retain some of their personality's after the process, when haven't they denied that warrior a place in the glorious afterlife?
I for one know my Klingon would be crying foul against them.
Also why didn't they just make New talaks a adventure zone?
"It appears we have lost our sex appeal, captain."- Tuvok
So they deserve to die why exactly?
What episode of Voyager involving Kobali were you watching? Because the one I watched involved a character that actually remembered who they were. And struggled with their changes. The only reason they decided to return with the Kobali was because they essentially gave in.
Ballard was still very much Ballard all the way up to the moment the writers decided they needed a reason for her to go back with the Kobali.
If that's the case, then no harm, no foul.
But desecration of the dead (i.e. not getting permission/grave robbing) is unacceptable.
She didn't "give in", she realized that her old self died and it was time to move on. Pretty much the grieving process directed inward.
Again. Everything about her was Ballard up until the moment they needed her to exit stage right.
Because if they made New Talax the adventure zone we wouldn't be having this conversation, which proves that the story was good enough to foster a reaction.
The fact that it is personally unacceptable is irrelevant, regardless of faction; we're helping them, and even if we weren't, we have no right to say their way of life is unacceptable, period. Personal discomfort, lines that can't be crossed with us, easily.
Been playing STO since Open Beta, and have never regarded anything as worse than 'meh', if only due to personal standards.
If any modern-day power on earth had the know-how and the will to do what the Kobali are doing to their enemies bodies, it would undoubtedly be considered a war crime.
Besides, it's not as if the Kobali's practices start and end within their own societies, they explicitly use the bodies of other space-faring cultures without consent. Their right to practice their own culture ends when they impose it on others. Remember, Janeway wasn't willing to give up her Kobali when her 'parents' came knocking, just to uphold their cultural values. So Federation characters very much have a precedent to voice their displeasure over the Kobali practices.
Playing a Klingon Captain, I can remember sitting in on one of the most sacred observances of my character's people's culture... a wake, where we stand guard to keep animals from getting at the body of the deceased. The thought of the Kobali desecrating the corpses of Klingon warriors, wiping away their identities with some biochemical necromancy, can only be anathema to me. These creatures are a nightmare, and whatever they did to sterilize themselves long ago, they should be working toward fixing that instead of finding a safe place to besmirch the graves of other societies.
It's merely a happy coincidence that the forces they've outraged lately on Kobali Prime are the new featured episode's central antagonists. They could have just as easily been violating the remains of the Talaxians. No, I've done enough Kobali content to be able to find the stasis pods they're desecrating in their "temple." For the rest of this expansion, these honorless petaQs are on their own, as far as I'm concerned. I'm willing to refrain from bombing them from orbit if doing so would distract this Klingon/Starfleet/Romulan Alliance from dealing with the real enemy, but the Kobali get no love from me. The next one that looks at me funny gets Five Fingers of Klingon Justice, right in the snot locker.
Yep.
One of whom doesn't give a TRIBBLE about dead bodies accept in reconted fanon. and the other one could very well share the same attitude.
Really assuming the Klingons and Romulans have the same beliefs regarding corpses as humans in ethnocentric as heck.
Seriously, the whole "Klingon value their dead" only goes so far as the soul in Sto-Vo-Kor. As far as the corpse, I seem to recall it said:
Doctor Beverly Crusher: Is there any special arrangement you would like for the body?
Captain Korris: It is only an empty shell now. Please treat it as such.
Meaning they don't appear to care what happens to their corpses.
You seem to think that everybody in the Federation, and Starfleet, are some sort of utopian, collectivist hive mind.
Don't think for a moment that Starfleet won't go apes*** if the Kobali started harvesting UFP casualties. And you are naive to think that there are no member races of the Federation that would find the Kobali's practices disgusting and unacceptable. Member races that have reps on the Council, which is central to the Federation's central government. The same government that Starfleet takes it's marching orders from.
The fact of the matter is if the Kobali didn't fit in the Alliance's strategic aims in the Delta Quadrant, Starfleet wouldn't have people on the ground dying in their little war with the Vaadwaur.
It's 2410 in the STO timeline. There are, more than likely, people in Starfleet who don't give a damn about some high and mighty declaration made by a single captain over forty years earlier.
I know I wouldn't. And my personal head canon regarding my Starfleet characters has them doing the same.