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Difficulty Feedback (was "Terrible Elite Mode")

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  • opo98opo98 Member Posts: 435 Arc User
    edited October 2014
    phoenicius wrote: »
    you guys realize this was on purpose right? cryptic has said this was intended.

    they want the game to be this difficult, i find it interesting the 180 change they did from rep boxes mechanics giving MK XI/XII purp stuff to this... thing they have now.

    PWE must have forced this on them(or maybe it was cryptic's own idea, who knows), in order to force new players to buy stuff, i seriously doubt they're going to change it, unless there is an ACTUAL hit to their bottom line/playerbase numbers.

    I don't mind it being hard. I just wish newer players had the option of taking an easier route to get the reputations by the way simply decreased rewards.

    Unfortunately as it is now, you can't even get the gear you need for Advanced from Normal.

    Plus there is a strange massive gap between advanced and normal STFs. Normal is super easy, but pointless, then all of a sudden the Advanced (which is the one that drops the useful things) is OMGWTFBBQ compared to normal.

    Not to mention the progression is completely messed up looking something like this:

    Easy -> Nightmare -> Only slightly worse Nightmare

    Wheras it used to be:

    Easy -> A bit harder but still kinda easy

    There has to be some kind of happy medium? Like:

    Easy -> Medium -> Nightmare
  • kjwashingtonkjwashington Member Posts: 2,529 Arc User
    edited October 2014
    New players that have money can eventually get better stuff. I only feel bad for new players that don't have money to spend on the game. Reasons:

    1) Assuming you prepared (or tried) for stfs you would still only have access to a level 40 ship and whatever you could scrape together from the story missions. So the 3 piece solanae set, the borg transphasic torp (from that one episode), and whatever other weapons you could scrape together.

    2) They can't earn EC to get better gear. (Really a problem for everyone since they took out drops in queues, and since before when they screwed with vendor trash prices.)

    3) They can't get dilitium since the only queues they'll be able to do will reward hardly any of it. And with no money they can't buy it.

    4) No materials, etc. for crafting or upgrading. Not sure if you can buy these, but point still stands since they won't be able to.

    5) No BNP, etc. and very little marks means that they can't buy rep stuff.

    I think that Cryptic is trying to get rid of the freeloaders.
    FaW%20meme_zpsbkzfjonz.jpg
    Support 90 degree arc limitation on BFaW! Save our ships from looking like flying disco balls of dumb!
  • opo98opo98 Member Posts: 435 Arc User
    edited October 2014
    valoreah wrote: »
    It isn't my logic. It's what the Developers came up with for the new queue system in DR. I agree the reward mechanism as it stands now for queued events isn't going to work.

    You are absolutely right, I'll go edit that post. It was not your logic, I made that post while not level-headed.
  • bluegeekbluegeek Member Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited October 2014
    Yep, big honkin thread merge.

    I get that people are upset about difficulty and rewards, but we don't need a half dozen (or more) threads talking about the same thing.

    Please leave your feedback here, or better yet in the thread Geko posted here: http://sto-forum.perfectworld.com/showthread.php?t=1253091

    Thanks!
    My views may not represent those of Cryptic Studios or Perfect World Entertainment. You can file a "forums and website" support ticket here
    Link: How to PM - Twitter @STOMod_Bluegeek
  • captinwh0captinwh0 Member Posts: 783 Arc User
    edited October 2014
    it isn't just the STF's Its the enty leval missions too, I cant progress on my new alt
    nerf.jpg]
  • darkjeffdarkjeff Member Posts: 2,590 Arc User
    edited October 2014
    For the record, my official feedback is that quintupling the health in Advanced is ridiculous, and needs to be scaled back.

    I say this as someone who does ~26k on a regular basis and doesn't have a problem with it. The N->A->E scaling is just crazy, is all.
    opo98 wrote: »
    I'm talking newbies with no funds to be able to get that kind of DPS.
    knocky wrote: »
    Take a ship with nothing but Vice Admiral mission awards are lets see you climb the Faction ladder.
    1) Assuming you prepared (or tried) for stfs you would still only have access to a level 40 ship and whatever you could scrape together from the story missions. So the 3 piece solanae set, the borg transphasic torp (from that one episode), and whatever other weapons you could scrape together.

    Getting full sets of purple gear is free. All you'd be missing are consoles.

    "After completion, you'll have all Very Rare (purple) "primary" gear for your ship (not including devices/consoles)
    After completion, you'll have all Very Rare (purple) "primary" ground gear for your character
    This guide requires no EC, dilithium, or any other currency to complete
    This guide does not require any reputations to be complete"


    Reputation gives better Def/Eng/Shield sets than the Solanae set, but the Solanae set has a resilient shield and Structural Integrity Leech. That's not bad. Mk XI purple AP arrays are perfectly fine weapons, and the Obelisk core is the best warp core for an AP build.

    The only thing you'd be missing are consoles, and Reputation only gives three useful consoles, (Assimilated, Nukara, Zero-Point) unless I'm forgetting something.

    That should be easily enough to unlock reputation tiers, and get all those passives.

    Heck, just grabbing that gear, using a good build (an actual good build, not "OMG I'm a special snowflake you cookie cutters!!1!"), and knowing how to fly (which requires learning, not "I'm an awesome pilot, you hardcore elitist no-lifes!") should easily outperform the 5k guys puttering around in the old ISEs.
  • arilouskiffarilouskiff Member Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited October 2014
    So, I just finished an Advanced Cure Space. Thoughts.

    1. It is obvious this was in no sense balanced at all. Probably they simply increased the HP/Shields of enemies according to a formula. The reason is namely that the IKS Kang is all but immune to the enemies that spawn due to it's high Shield/HP, enemies whose damage in no way scales proportionate to the HP of the Kang.

    2. The nodes (although not, seemingly, the cubes) have pre-DR HP.

    3. Killing the cubes no longer completes the mission, you have to kill the BOP's as well. (or at least some of them, it seemed incredibly weird when the mission actually completed, which was often long after we've killed the cubes)

    4. Apart from the DPS check (the need to kill all the cubes+some of the BOP's within 15 min.) it's not that much harder: I did not die noticeably more than pre-DR. Elites.

    5. It does however, take a significantly longer time. (I'd guess it took us around 25 min? slightly less than 15 to clear out the cubes, and an equal amount of time to kill the remaining Bops/raptors/Negh'vars and the carrier)

    6. The carrier is absolutely pointless: It's a huge bag of HP, but since there's no timer on it, there's no particular reason to rush DPS, and it does completely anemic damage. (no one died on the carrier whatsoever)

    7. All this means that what "should" be the focus of the mission (protecting the Kang, and the final showdown with the carrier) ignoreable while the tough part becomes evading (no use taking them out) the huge HP-sponge Bops while killing the cubes. Very counter to the actual tone of the mission. (which is more of a "desperate defence" thing)

    8. Rewards are absolutely anemic. Neither XP, dilithium or omega marks were anywhere near worth the time spent. I earned maybe 3000 XP on the entire thing, and 480 dilithium.

    9. The real problem comes with the fact that the "rare reputation mats" (Borg Neural Processors etc.) are locked behind advanced Queues now. Now, we were a pretty damn well-equipped bunch, but that means *we already had that kind of stuff* The new people coming are going to have to do these advanced STF's in order to earn end-level gear... That is required to run Advanced STF's in the first place. (even the upgrade system works that way!) It's slightly easier for voth/undine since they have their respective battlezones, but this makes the borg reputation all but impossible to finish for new players.

    10. I don't really have a problem with the difficult of the mission per se: It was fairly tense when the timer was counting down. The problem is that the difficulty is all in the wrong places. (DPS race rather than a "keep the kang alive" race) the rewards are in no way commensurate with the tipe spent. And it is just plain *boring* you spend most of the time plonking away at high-HP enemies who plonk away at you, neither of you who do very much actual damage to each other.

    11. You *really* need to take a look over the STF and figure out the balance of HP, damage, the Kang, etc. Right now it was obviously just "scaled up" from the old Elites, with no consideration for how that changes the dynamics of the mission.
  • ummaxummax Member Posts: 529 Arc User
    edited October 2014
    Um. They did warn you not to try elite until you actually hit 60 and that it would be quite hard...

    you can't do elite till level 60 they dont even show up
  • darkdog13darkdog13 Member Posts: 209 Arc User
    edited October 2014
    stf65 wrote: »
    omg you people. just read some of the actual crafting threads. not the ones you normally post in where you complain about everything, but the ones where actual crafters are telling you how to get to 15 quickly without spending tons of resources.

    you guys are massively uniformed, probably due to all the mental rage keeping you from learning anything, and so keep repeating the same stupidity over and over. i feel like i'm in the deep south in the late 1800s around here: all hate biased stereotypes with no ability to actually learn what's going on.

    Currently the best way i know to level crafting is the 20 hour rd task plus crafting mk vi items due to the fact that they give 600 exp per hour per project. With 4 rd slots and using 1 to do the 20 hour mission (you would a fool to not do it) and using the other 3 slots for mk vi items if you logged in 4 times a day to change the missions you are looking at 7200 exp per day plus 7000 for the 20 hour mission.

    So 630000 exp divided by 14200 is still about 44 days so unless you take that long to level to 50 or 60 you won't get to level 15 rd by the time you cap.

    There is also the issue of the cost of rd mats to level (to level beams to 15 using above example is currently 120 million ec) but if you craft the right items you shoulc be able to at least break even or make a profit.
  • darkjeffdarkjeff Member Posts: 2,590 Arc User
    edited October 2014
    Oh, speaking of Rep gear...

    Are the Isomorphic Injections no longer dropping from the Undine BZ? Are the Voth Cybernetic Implants no longer dropping from the Dyson BZ?

    Otherwise, all the whining about not being able to gear up because the queues to get the parts to get Rep gear require Rep gear is talking solely about Omega reputation's BNPs.

    You can have full sets of RomPlas weapons, a CC deflector, Rom engine, and your choice of shields, with all Rep consoles aside from the Assimilated console without ever touching queues.
    6. The carrier is absolutely pointless: It's a huge bag of HP, but since there's no timer on it, there's no particular reason to rush DPS, and it does completely anemic damage. (no one died on the carrier whatsoever)

    The carrier has always been a loot pi
  • xenificationxenification Member Posts: 615 Arc User
    edited October 2014
    tk79 wrote: »
    New Elite mode is completely fine. The problem is Advanced mode. It's almost the same as new Elite and does not even compare to previous Elite.

    Currently, it's more like "Advanced is not for everyone" as it probably should be.


    This..

    Honestly I was really looking forward to playing the new queues on the old elite difficulty (advanced) guess not :/
  • bobbydazlersbobbydazlers Member Posts: 4,534 Arc User
    edited October 2014
    I think players got used to the fact that end game came after doing pre DR story mission and they hit lv50.
    they got used to end game being when you would start doing reps through pve ques, they have set it up so this is just the beginning.
    this is where you need to start really working on getting the best build you can via rep, DR missions, normal pve`s and by levelling up gear & ship with what ever you can do at that point.
    this could take a new player a lot longer then it used to, they need to work through all of this before you can even consider yourself ready for end game.
    new end game will now start when you ready to work your way up to advanced with all the best gear and T5U or T6 ships all levelled up also.

    so basically what I am saying is they have moved the goal posts and not by a small amount either.

    in a way new players will have it easier then seasoned players because the progression will be natural for them, it is us seasoned players who will find it hard, we have to get used to the fact that we are not at the top of our game anymore were only just starting.

    When I think about everything we've been through together,

    maybe it's not the destination that matters, maybe it's the journey,

     and if that journey takes a little longer,

    so we can do something we all believe in,

     I can't think of any place I'd rather be or any people I'd rather be with.

  • arilouskiffarilouskiff Member Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited October 2014
    Honestly, to me it's obvious that they tried to balance the new queues, but had no time to actually go through the old ones properly. They're just not working at the moment. (this isn't unique to cryptic btw. but it is always incredibly annoying)

    They balanced the new queues (Borg Disconnected feels pretty much like it should, and the mechanis work) and then applied the same formula to the earlier stuff without considering the differences in how those missions work.
  • opo98opo98 Member Posts: 435 Arc User
    edited October 2014
    darkjeff wrote: »
    Oh, speaking of Rep gear...

    Are the Isomorphic Injections no longer dropping from the Undine BZ? Are the Voth Cybernetic Implants no longer dropping from the Dyson BZ?

    Otherwise, all the whining about not being able to gear up because the queues to get the parts to get Rep gear require Rep gear is talking solely about Omega reputation's BNPs.

    You can have full sets of RomPlas weapons, a CC deflector, Rom engine, and your choice of shields, with all Rep consoles aside from the Assimilated console without ever touching queues.



    The carrier has always been a loot pi
  • arilouskiffarilouskiff Member Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited October 2014
    darkjeff wrote: »

    The carrier has always been a loot pi
  • aelfwin1aelfwin1 Member Posts: 2,896 Arc User
    edited October 2014
    opo98 wrote: »
    Yup, all of the gear specific items only drop from their respective ADV queues. I'm not sure about Dyson bz however. There are also a lot of people who don't do ground.

    Or don't do dinoz w/lazors ... .
    Is there a new bz in this expansion ?
    I know there is an "adventure zone" but is there anything to match the awards of the stupid dino thing ?
  • fireseeedfireseeed Member Posts: 146 Arc User
    edited October 2014
    valoreah wrote: »
    It's not like they didn't warn everyone about the content getting harder. You'll also note that the new Advanced (a slightly buffed version of the old Elite) got a Dil reward nerf.
    dexless314 wrote: »
    I like what someone else said. Sure, make the hardest ones harder, but leave the squishy ones squishy. Let's be honest. We all enjoy some form of challenge, but there are days where we want to look at our powerful ships and think to ourselves "wow, today is a nice day for squishing things with FaW or Cannon Volley" just to make pretty fireworks in space. So, we take our ships to federation fleet alert and smash flies for fun. I

    An that what normal is for, squashing things like flies.
  • arilouskiffarilouskiff Member Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited October 2014
    fireseeed wrote: »
    An that what normal is for, squashing things like flies.

    If Normal have you borg processors that would be OK.
  • fireseeedfireseeed Member Posts: 146 Arc User
    edited October 2014
    If Normal have you borg processors that would be OK.

    That the side they need to tackle, the loot. Cryptic need to be a bit more generous in that department.
  • arilouskiffarilouskiff Member Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited October 2014
    fireseeed wrote: »
    That the side they need to tackle, the loot. Cryptic need to be a bit more generous in that department.

    Especially the scaling. The time investment in the new advanced's in no way is commensurate with the rewards.
  • [Deleted User][Deleted User] Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited October 2014
    rickpaaa wrote: »
    Many of us have paid over $100 for the Delta Pack, and as you can see on the forums, our first experiences with our new tier 6 ships, and tier 5 upgrades is failure after failure. Even in regular fleet alerts! Please do go ahead and make elite truly elite, but let those of us who were happy playing STO up to now have a decent shot at advanced content just like we did until yesterday with elite content.

    I hope PvE is adjusted with an emergency patch very soon. No one wants to pay to lose. Nobody!



    you gave them more money? you idiot. look at what theyve done with the money we gave them so far!

    grinding does not a season make.
  • darkjeffdarkjeff Member Posts: 2,590 Arc User
    edited October 2014
    aelfwin1 wrote: »
    Ummm , not quite .

    Sorry, I mean that the fact that the T6 ships are blowing up is not indicative of the T6 ships performance, but the difficulty of the new queues.

    So the fact that difficulty has increased does not mean the T6 ships aren't comparatively stronger to previous ships like the LoR pack to previous ships.
    aelfwin1 wrote: »
    Piloting is a small part of it .
    The rest is consoles from the Lobi store and Doffs that can cost millions of EC .
    And that does not include the cost of gearing up to Mk 13-14 . :)
    That , plus knowing how to optimize stuff helps ... -- knowledge tat comes from experimenting , which in turn = more costs .

    Reducing @sarcasmdetector's knowledge to "piloting" does him a disservice .
    Having said that , more then one person has noted that the reoccurring theme in his builds is EPTW & BFAW .
    Maybe it's the PVP-er in me who thinks this , but them ain't skills . :D

    Actually, whatever advantage he has in knowledge and resources over me is minimal. (Well, up until the upgrade system, at which point I'll fall behind in upgrading.) I know for a fact that it's our difference in piloting skills - by which I'm referring to timing, position, and keybinds - that makes the biggest difference.

    It was literally the exact same build - same gear, same consoles, same weapons. Well, I'm also an Engineer and he's a Tactical captain, but it can't possibly be a 15k difference. I pulled 30k as an Engineer after all.

    I've consulted with him twice, changing my keybinds and timing, and my DPS literally jumped up an average of over 4k.

    I don't think it's doing him a disservice at all to note the gap in our piloting ability is what makes the difference. Builds are knowledge, easily attained (unless your ego blinds you to your shortcomings). Resources are just time or money spent. Piloting ability though is player skill - not so easily acquired.
  • jer5488jer5488 Member Posts: 506 Arc User
    edited October 2014
    I still say the best 'fix' for this whole mess is do a balance pass on advanced health and objectives - keep it hard, but more of a learning curve. Keep elite as difficult as it can be - it should be the bragging rights for anyone willing to take the time to learn and complete the project. Then to fix the 'gearing issue', put a single rep token (neural processor, isomorphic injection, etc) in their respective faction's 'daily box'.
  • gizmox64gizmox64 Member Posts: 322 Arc User
    edited October 2014
    karr007 wrote: »
    I don't mind a little challenge but c'mon this make it looks like the federation, the klingons and the romulans cant build a proper ship. Here i am in my odyssey wih 100k hp, ooh look a Tholian Mesh Weaver near the Crystaline entity advanced, this can't be too difficult ship, oh wait it has 700k hp
    How is that possible? what tech are they using? i want some of that too. a mere frigate got 7 times more hp than a tac. cruiser - yeah right.

    Ding I agree with that statement.

    So many games just pour on more HP and more damage to the enemies, instead of making them more aware, or use tactics, or use more skills.

    And in STO, it makes it feel cheap, really cheap.
    I mean the Borg I can understand it, but in other races, it just doesn't make sense.



    Other Note:
    And I'm still being hit with the Invisible Plasma Torpedo, even after I SEE it destroyed by my BFaW, but 2 seconds later, boom, check logs. Borg Plasma Torpedo does 45k physical damage.
  • opo98opo98 Member Posts: 435 Arc User
    edited October 2014
    gizmox64 wrote: »
    Ding I agree with that statement.

    So many games just pour on more HP and more damage to the enemies, instead of making them more aware, or use tactics, or use more skills.

    And in STO, it makes it feel cheap, really cheap.
    I mean the Borg I can understand it, but in other races, it just doesn't make sense.



    Other Note:
    And I'm still being hit with the Invisible Plasma Torpedo, even after I SEE it destroyed by my BFaW, but 2 seconds later, boom, check logs. Borg Plasma Torpedo does 45k physical damage.

    Even still, the races of the Galaxy have pretty much matched the Borg in tech now, so there really is no reason for 1 million HP frigates. It's really kind of tedious and unfun.
  • hausofmartokhausofmartok Member Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited October 2014
    gizmox64 wrote: »
    Ding I agree with that statement.

    So many games just pour on more HP and more damage to the enemies, instead of making them more aware, or use tactics, or use more skills.

    And in STO, it makes it feel cheap, really cheap.
    I mean the Borg I can understand it, but in other races, it just doesn't make sense.



    Other Note:
    And I'm still being hit with the Invisible Plasma Torpedo, even after I SEE it destroyed by my BFaW, but 2 seconds later, boom, check logs. Borg Plasma Torpedo does 45k physical damage.

    Seems like challenging, good quality AI is not in a company like PWEs budget. And that's not to say they can't afford it, just that it's not profitable in their metrics to create good AI than it is say a new ship to sell for $30.
    It's cheaper and easier to do mega HP and DMG so that's what we get. That's ok, we have games like Dark Souls 2 and Everquest Next for good AI, STO can still be our fun Star Trek game, just a matter of managing expectations to match reality.
  • shandypandyshandypandy Member Posts: 632 Arc User
    edited October 2014
    What I found especially amusing: the Kazon Raiders have about the same hull HP as an Andorian escort with 9 points in structural integrity.

    Probably made out of concrete and pig-iron.
    giphy.gif
  • lostmoonylostmoony Member Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited October 2014
    waste 5 times more time now for elite missions is the result + get lower reward.:rolleyes:

    the game Balance is now horrible!

    all npc get a HP boost of 5-10 times from bevor patch.

    lvl 50 or lvl 60 in elite missions makes no diffrenz coz anyone get set to lvl 60 if he jump in.


    the big fail on all of this is the dmg vs HP Balance what was done.

    a MKxII beam deals 240 dmg
    a MKxIV beam deals 290 dmg

    so a dmg increase for alot of dil and zen from aditional 20% total!!!!!!!!!

    but the enemys have now 500-1000% more HP.


    how a dmg boost from ~20% from the expensive MKxIV weapons can compansate enemys what have now 10x more HP?
  • ladymyajhaladymyajha Member Posts: 1,428 Arc User
    edited October 2014
    So I just did a few Advanced Borg Disconnected, and I'm about to just give up. Not because it's too hard, but because I'm tired of dealing with idiots. I mean seriously you know it's bad when you walk into an Advanced STF and are told "this is my first time doing Borg Disconencted" then watch every single ship but you fly to the exact same point and totally ignore the Disconnected Borg in their area.

    So now getting these Power Cells are going to be nearly impossible because no matter what you'll have either a griefer, a leecher, or a newb in every single PUG making it MANDATORY for you to have a fleet just in order to get ancient power cells and reputation gear.

    I don't so mind having a fleet, I have one, but making them now mandatory for basically all items in the reputation system, and for fleet gear and ships because there is no other way to get higher tier stuff with all the idiots in the game.l

    Or at least make a rep system approach where you can trade 100 marks for 1 ancient power cell.
  • aelfwin1aelfwin1 Member Posts: 2,896 Arc User
    edited October 2014
    darkjeff wrote: »
    (unless your ego blinds you to your shortcomings)

    I have no doubt that I can be called guilty on that at times , but I also doubt that I am alone in that privilege .

    But then again I also have this thing where I don't feel comfortable belonging in "exclusive" clubs who think that faster = better .
    Which is why I opted out of "STF Raiders" , and didn't accept the invite to one DPS channel or another .

    My enjoyment of pew-ing along with my 3k K'Tinga will never be @sarcasmdetector's enjoyment .

    OTOTH , when in the old long Borg STF's we had to fly to the other side of the Transwarp gate in Infected , and had boat loads of probes and cubes and tac cubes all flying through the gate (and getting stuck in/on it) -- there you had to angle yourself just right to get some target or another and watch that you suddenly didn't get caught up in a crossfire , especially if you were a BOP or an escort ... -- so as far as PVE goes ... THAT is what I consider actual piloting ... , and not plotting the best place to BFAW stationary objects ... which is the "piloting" that you seem to think highly of as it get's you a few more numbers on your parser . :)
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