I think it made sense (ish) it was just very simplistic...
As for Worf...
That episode where Data, Deanna and O'Brien were taken over by the alien entities... She snapped his wrist one-handed like a twig... I didn't realise Betazoids were strong enough to arm-wrestle Klingons and Vulcans with ease, but such badassery has never been subsequently referenced :eek:
I think that may be because of the aliens that inhabited them. They all acted far more capable than normal (save Data). Sure, it makes no sense, but neither do half the plot points in TNG.
You're right about that, at least. If the infiltration is as extensive as it supposedly is the Undine should've figured it out by now. So either the infiltration problem is severely overstated (and frankly, based on available evidence, the Undine are ****ing terrible at it so that wouldn't surprise me), or the Undine are morons and don't care.
There's a third alternative: the Undine don't like us and will use any flimsy pretext as a reason to commit genocide.
Undine culture is such that, as a group, they don't value the lives of any other race. thus to them exterminating the Federation doesn't count as murder.
There's a third alternative: the Undine don't like us and will use any flimsy pretext as a reason to commit genocide.
Undine culture is such that, as a group, they don't value the lives of any other race. thus to them exterminating the Federation doesn't count as murder.
Please rewatch "In the Flesh". Unless you're going to propose that they left a major military installation completely undefended (in which case we're right back to the "they're morons" point), they had a perfect opportunity to blow Voyager clear out of the sky and they let it go, because they're not the complete villains you seem to think they are.
Isolationist xenophobic racists? Absolutely. But that's no different than the Romulans or the Tholians. Quick to violence? I point you at the Klingons. Omnicidal? Not evidenced.
Let me pose a counter-question: If the Undine want to destroy us because they don't like us, why do they need to bother with having a pretext? It's not like they've got international diplomatic contacts they need to save face with.
"Great War! / And I cannot take more! / Great tour! / I keep on marching on / I play the great score / There will be no encore / Great War! / The War to End All Wars"
— Sabaton, "Great War"
in The Needs of the Many they mention Undine being separated into factions and some of them having differing opinions on the Federation
Which is exactly what worffan and I have been positing for months. I just didn't realize Cryptic's own writers agreed with us.
So much for the Undine being a monolithic omnicidal threat. Diplomacy is possible with them in a way it will never be possible with the Borg. We have an opportunity here to turn them and get a new ally against not one, but two omnicidal threats, the Borg and the Iconians, just like the Federation worked with a traditional enemy in the Dominion War to defeat a foe that posed a threat to everyone in the region.
And that means, Janeway cultists, that you can forget there being any possibility that she was right in "Scorpion", at least as far as STO is concerned. She jumped to conclusions on specious evidence, broke multiple laws and her own sworn word, and got away with it because she's a Mary Sue written by hacks. End of story.
"Great War! / And I cannot take more! / Great tour! / I keep on marching on / I play the great score / There will be no encore / Great War! / The War to End All Wars"
— Sabaton, "Great War"
Which is exactly what worffan and I have been positing for months. I just didn't realize Cryptic's own writers agreed with us.
So much for the Undine being a monolithic omnicidal threat. Diplomacy is possible with them in a way it will never be possible with the Borg. We have an opportunity here to turn them and get a new ally against not one, but two omnicidal threats, the Borg and the Iconians, just like the Federation worked with a traditional enemy in the Dominion War to defeat a foe that posed a threat to everyone in the region.
And that means, Janeway cultists, that you can forget there being any possibility that she was right in "Scorpion", at least as far as STO is concerned. She jumped to conclusions on specious evidence, broke multiple laws and her own sworn word, and got away with it because she's a Mary Sue written by hacks. End of story.
Ahem, I actually agree with opening diplomacy with the Undine - it's something I've felt needed to be done and something I've done multiple times in RPs.
However, that was due to the writers doing a follow-up to a race which was originally intended to be one-off. Stuff was going to change. Just like how the Ferengi went from really sexist, uncivilised trolls to really sexist, greedy, capitalistic trolls. :P
And, for the record, Janeway is by no means my favourite Captain, and I do find several of her actions reprehensible (like spacing one of Ransom's crewmen). I just don't feel that her actions with the Undine are unreasonable given the evidence she had. Many military officers today would have made similar decisions, and have, without it being treason.
I'd also point out that every point here is hindsight. It's easy to say now that 'The weak shall perish' is a battle cry, but that's only after diplomacy with the Undine was initiated. As far as Janeway knew, it was a declaration of malicious intent. The Undine represented a threat to the safety of the Federation.
That being said, allying with the Borg was morally controversial (better the Devil you know how to fight than the Devil you don't), but it may have been the only option which was viable; they were already in Borg Space; the Borg weren't going to let them leave and Voyager could never outrun them. Janeway dug herself a hole by entering Borg Space and it came back to bite her.
I'd also point out that every point here is hindsight. It's easy to say now that 'The weak shall perish' is a battle cry, but that's only after diplomacy with the Undine was initiated. As far as Janeway knew, it was a declaration of malicious intent. The Undine represented a threat to the safety of the Federation.
How often do we experience diplomatic frak ups and miscommunications amongst other humans here on Earth?
Now extrapolate that for dealings with an alien race like Vulcans. Or Klingons. Or even Borg.
Now extrapolate that for something alien amongst aliens like the Undine.
It is utter stupidity and arrogance to assign a human use of a phrase to an Alien culture who shared no signs of similarity to anything yet encountered by the Federation.
How often do we experience diplomatic frak ups and miscommunications amongst other humans here on Earth?
Now extrapolate that for dealings with an alien race like Vulcans. Or Klingons. Or even Borg.
Now extrapolate that for something alien amongst aliens like the Undine.
It is utter stupidity and arrogance to assign a human use of a phrase to an Alien culture who shared no signs of similarity to anything yet encountered by the Federation.
My point exactly. What Janeway knew was:
Somebody was waging an offensive war against the Borg and, for the moment, they were winning.
Said somebody had attacked an armed away team that boarded his ship without permission, and then fired on Voyager when they tried to hit him with a tractor beam.
Kes told her she had interpreted a psychic message from them as "The weak will perish."
That's not a lot to go on. Certainly it's not enough evidence to extrapolate that you're dealing with an entire species of omnicidal maniacs. Maybe "The weak will perish" means the single member of the species she had encountered happened to believe in social Darwinism and thought Harry Kim was weak and would perish. Maybe Kes, an untrained psychic with wildly fluctuating powers, misinterpreted him and he was just screaming random gibberish in fear that only sounded like "the weak will perish". Maybe Kes dreamed the whole thing and the Undine never actually communicated at all. (This, by the way, is why hearsay is inadmissible in court. The person you're quoting isn't present to call you out as a liar.)
Instead, Janeway jumps to conclusions and makes an extra enemy the Federation and the other powers of the galaxy don't need to make, and provides military assistance to an existing enemy with whom the Federation is engaged in a state of war (which, again, constitutes treason).
The Federation deals with new and potentially hostile alien species all the time, and there's ample evidence that, with one single, solitary exception, single individuals are not a representative sample for the entire species, and therefore should not be treated as such, and Janeway, being a former chief science officer, should have realized this.
Three guesses what that exception I mentioned is. That's right. We're right back to the Borg.
And another thing, regarding the Undine attack on Voyager? Considering their guns one-shot Borg cubes, Voyager not being obliterated suggests that the Undine wasn't actually shooting to kill. Food for thought.
"Great War! / And I cannot take more! / Great tour! / I keep on marching on / I play the great score / There will be no encore / Great War! / The War to End All Wars"
— Sabaton, "Great War"
Even the Devidians showed the ability to communicate. That is why I chose to treat them as reasoning beings and why one of my two mains IS one--raised by humans, yes, but not some sort of blindly-ravenous monster with no soul and no restraint. I may not like Picard but when it comes to the Devidians, I WILL give him credit for attempting communication with them. The result was the wounded Devidian making an existential threat against Earth (a very specific and credible threat, as the intel term goes), but however horribly messed up they are, they are people and not mere mindless monsters.
I tend to think of the Undine very similarly--severely warped ideologically, but individuals. Where there are individuals then you can have noncombatants, you can have people who go against the prevailing opinion, and so on. Even if a small number of Undine rebels can be located, that's better than nothing...look at how the rebellion among the Cardassians started.
As for the Borg...my feelings on drones in the Collective are a bit complex. While I think liberation is commendable where possible, I do also believe it is not a risk-free procedure for those who try it. For one, as Hugh stated, the Borg may choose to relentlessly pursue the liberated drone. Should that happen, liberation puts everyone in danger. For another, people seem to forget because of the catsuits, but Seven of Nine was far from harmless and did a number of things at the beginning that could well have resulted in Voyager's assimilation. It is easily possible either one of those schemes could have succeeded, or that another drone could've been even further gone than Seven--and prior to the liberation attempt, there is no way to know if the result is going to be a Picard or a completely brainwashed threat even after cutting the link to the Collective.
I would also add that death IS preferable to assimilation and we have seen clear evidence of mercy killing as an acceptable policy in Starfleet under such circumstances. (There is one particularly clear mercy kill in First Contact where a crew member mid-assimilation begs for death.) IMO, while liberation is nice in theory, it takes very controlled circumstances for it to work. In the absence of that option, death is the one thing remaining that is preferable to assimilation, so IMO killing a Borg drone is not the same thing as how I would see killing an Undine noncombatant: you are either removing a threat, mercy killing, or both. IMO all drones are a potential threat in AND out of the Collective, so to NOT kill them, you have to be in a sufficient position to mitigate the threat, which is not always realistically possible.
Christian Gaming Community Fleets--Faith, Fun, and Fellowship! See the website and PM for more. :-) Proudly F2P.Signature image by gulberat. Avatar image by balsavor.deviantart.com.
Even the Devidians showed the ability to communicate. That is why I chose to treat them as reasoning beings and why one of my two mains IS one--raised by humans, yes, but not some sort of blindly-ravenous monster with no soul and no restraint. I may not like Picard but when it comes to the Devidians, I WILL give him credit for attempting communication with them. The result was the wounded Devidian making an existential threat against Earth (a very specific and credible threat, as the intel term goes), but however horribly messed up they are, they are people and not mere mindless monsters.
I tend to think of the Undine very similarly--severely warped ideologically, but individuals. Where there are individuals then you can have noncombatants, you can have people who go against the prevailing opinion, and so on. Even if a small number of Undine rebels can be located, that's better than nothing...look at how the rebellion among the Cardassians started.
Agreed, it is definitely a good idea to treat them as people and not just "black hats". But... As a wise man once said, speak softly and carry a big stick. In the case of the Undine, you'll probably have to hit them with it a few times to get the point across. It's certainly worth trying to talk to them, but you need to keep in mind what generally happens when you negotiate with people who don't like you.... If they change their mind about wanting to negotiate, they may shoot you. Since the Undine usually do that anyways, it's actually highly likely if the negotiations don't go well.
And another thing, regarding the Undine attack on Voyager? Considering their guns one-shot Borg cubes, Voyager not being obliterated suggests that the Undine wasn't actually shooting to kill. Food for thought.
Voyager survived for one reason only... the Undine MISSED! Apparently it was too used to shooting at giant nearly immobile targets....
Agreed, it is definitely a good idea to treat them as people and not just "black hats". But... As a wise man once said, speak softly and carry a big stick. In the case of the Undine, you'll probably have to hit them with it a few times to get the point across. It's certainly worth trying to talk to them, but you need to keep in mind what generally happens when you negotiate with people who don't like you.... If they change their mind about wanting to negotiate, they may shoot you. Since the Undine usually do that anyways, it's actually highly likely if the negotiations don't go well.
And I don't disagree it's a high-risk strategy, just like it was when Picard tried to open communication and just pissed off the Devidian worse than she was already pissed off. But I'd say it's reasonably arguable that it is at least a bit lower-risk than allying with the Borg given that they aren't a hive mind. You might at least have the chance to get someone listening to you and willing to back you up before some of the others. Basically I would advocate Reagan's style of negotiating: be strong and capable of backing up a threat but also willing to have an honest conversation.
Christian Gaming Community Fleets--Faith, Fun, and Fellowship! See the website and PM for more. :-) Proudly F2P.Signature image by gulberat. Avatar image by balsavor.deviantart.com.
Comments
All of this is entirely true and perfect.
I think that may be because of the aliens that inhabited them. They all acted far more capable than normal (save Data). Sure, it makes no sense, but neither do half the plot points in TNG.
Trials of Blood and Fire
Moving On Parts 1-3 - Part 4
In Cold Blood
"Why is an episode with Jeffrey Combs automatically awesome? 42." See? No good.
On the other tentacle, that does mean that if they ever do make another Trek series, they should hire Combs to play the captain.
Undine culture is such that, as a group, they don't value the lives of any other race. thus to them exterminating the Federation doesn't count as murder.
My character Tsin'xing
Please rewatch "In the Flesh". Unless you're going to propose that they left a major military installation completely undefended (in which case we're right back to the "they're morons" point), they had a perfect opportunity to blow Voyager clear out of the sky and they let it go, because they're not the complete villains you seem to think they are.
Isolationist xenophobic racists? Absolutely. But that's no different than the Romulans or the Tholians. Quick to violence? I point you at the Klingons. Omnicidal? Not evidenced.
Let me pose a counter-question: If the Undine want to destroy us because they don't like us, why do they need to bother with having a pretext? It's not like they've got international diplomatic contacts they need to save face with.
— Sabaton, "Great War"
Check out https://unitedfederationofpla.net/s/
also, we should allow the Undine to take over :eek:
Which is exactly what worffan and I have been positing for months. I just didn't realize Cryptic's own writers agreed with us.
So much for the Undine being a monolithic omnicidal threat. Diplomacy is possible with them in a way it will never be possible with the Borg. We have an opportunity here to turn them and get a new ally against not one, but two omnicidal threats, the Borg and the Iconians, just like the Federation worked with a traditional enemy in the Dominion War to defeat a foe that posed a threat to everyone in the region.
And that means, Janeway cultists, that you can forget there being any possibility that she was right in "Scorpion", at least as far as STO is concerned. She jumped to conclusions on specious evidence, broke multiple laws and her own sworn word, and got away with it because she's a Mary Sue written by hacks. End of story.
— Sabaton, "Great War"
Check out https://unitedfederationofpla.net/s/
Ahem, I actually agree with opening diplomacy with the Undine - it's something I've felt needed to be done and something I've done multiple times in RPs.
However, that was due to the writers doing a follow-up to a race which was originally intended to be one-off. Stuff was going to change. Just like how the Ferengi went from really sexist, uncivilised trolls to really sexist, greedy, capitalistic trolls. :P
And, for the record, Janeway is by no means my favourite Captain, and I do find several of her actions reprehensible (like spacing one of Ransom's crewmen). I just don't feel that her actions with the Undine are unreasonable given the evidence she had. Many military officers today would have made similar decisions, and have, without it being treason.
I'd also point out that every point here is hindsight. It's easy to say now that 'The weak shall perish' is a battle cry, but that's only after diplomacy with the Undine was initiated. As far as Janeway knew, it was a declaration of malicious intent. The Undine represented a threat to the safety of the Federation.
That being said, allying with the Borg was morally controversial (better the Devil you know how to fight than the Devil you don't), but it may have been the only option which was viable; they were already in Borg Space; the Borg weren't going to let them leave and Voyager could never outrun them. Janeway dug herself a hole by entering Borg Space and it came back to bite her.
Trials of Blood and Fire
Moving On Parts 1-3 - Part 4
In Cold Blood
How often do we experience diplomatic frak ups and miscommunications amongst other humans here on Earth?
Now extrapolate that for dealings with an alien race like Vulcans. Or Klingons. Or even Borg.
Now extrapolate that for something alien amongst aliens like the Undine.
It is utter stupidity and arrogance to assign a human use of a phrase to an Alien culture who shared no signs of similarity to anything yet encountered by the Federation.
My point exactly. What Janeway knew was:
That's not a lot to go on. Certainly it's not enough evidence to extrapolate that you're dealing with an entire species of omnicidal maniacs. Maybe "The weak will perish" means the single member of the species she had encountered happened to believe in social Darwinism and thought Harry Kim was weak and would perish. Maybe Kes, an untrained psychic with wildly fluctuating powers, misinterpreted him and he was just screaming random gibberish in fear that only sounded like "the weak will perish". Maybe Kes dreamed the whole thing and the Undine never actually communicated at all. (This, by the way, is why hearsay is inadmissible in court. The person you're quoting isn't present to call you out as a liar.)
Instead, Janeway jumps to conclusions and makes an extra enemy the Federation and the other powers of the galaxy don't need to make, and provides military assistance to an existing enemy with whom the Federation is engaged in a state of war (which, again, constitutes treason).
The Federation deals with new and potentially hostile alien species all the time, and there's ample evidence that, with one single, solitary exception, single individuals are not a representative sample for the entire species, and therefore should not be treated as such, and Janeway, being a former chief science officer, should have realized this.
Three guesses what that exception I mentioned is. That's right. We're right back to the Borg.
And another thing, regarding the Undine attack on Voyager? Considering their guns one-shot Borg cubes, Voyager not being obliterated suggests that the Undine wasn't actually shooting to kill. Food for thought.
— Sabaton, "Great War"
Check out https://unitedfederationofpla.net/s/
I tend to think of the Undine very similarly--severely warped ideologically, but individuals. Where there are individuals then you can have noncombatants, you can have people who go against the prevailing opinion, and so on. Even if a small number of Undine rebels can be located, that's better than nothing...look at how the rebellion among the Cardassians started.
As for the Borg...my feelings on drones in the Collective are a bit complex. While I think liberation is commendable where possible, I do also believe it is not a risk-free procedure for those who try it. For one, as Hugh stated, the Borg may choose to relentlessly pursue the liberated drone. Should that happen, liberation puts everyone in danger. For another, people seem to forget because of the catsuits, but Seven of Nine was far from harmless and did a number of things at the beginning that could well have resulted in Voyager's assimilation. It is easily possible either one of those schemes could have succeeded, or that another drone could've been even further gone than Seven--and prior to the liberation attempt, there is no way to know if the result is going to be a Picard or a completely brainwashed threat even after cutting the link to the Collective.
I would also add that death IS preferable to assimilation and we have seen clear evidence of mercy killing as an acceptable policy in Starfleet under such circumstances. (There is one particularly clear mercy kill in First Contact where a crew member mid-assimilation begs for death.) IMO, while liberation is nice in theory, it takes very controlled circumstances for it to work. In the absence of that option, death is the one thing remaining that is preferable to assimilation, so IMO killing a Borg drone is not the same thing as how I would see killing an Undine noncombatant: you are either removing a threat, mercy killing, or both. IMO all drones are a potential threat in AND out of the Collective, so to NOT kill them, you have to be in a sufficient position to mitigate the threat, which is not always realistically possible.
Christian Gaming Community Fleets--Faith, Fun, and Fellowship! See the website and PM for more. :-)
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My character Tsin'xing
And I don't disagree it's a high-risk strategy, just like it was when Picard tried to open communication and just pissed off the Devidian worse than she was already pissed off. But I'd say it's reasonably arguable that it is at least a bit lower-risk than allying with the Borg given that they aren't a hive mind. You might at least have the chance to get someone listening to you and willing to back you up before some of the others. Basically I would advocate Reagan's style of negotiating: be strong and capable of backing up a threat but also willing to have an honest conversation.
Christian Gaming Community Fleets--Faith, Fun, and Fellowship! See the website and PM for more. :-)
Proudly F2P. Signature image by gulberat. Avatar image by balsavor.deviantart.com.