You want to execute people for violating the Prime Directive?
Kirk at Eminiar VII.
Kirk at Neural. (Yes, it could be argued that the Klingons started arming one side first, but was arming the other side really the appropriate response?)
Kirk and McCoy at Capella IV. (Again, "the Klingons did it first" doesn't really seem to justify it.)
Kirk and McCoy at Yonada.
Kirk at Ardana.
In "The Drumhead", Picard was accused of nine violations of the Prime Directive. (And he was the one who found reasoning similar to Kirk's at Neural to be "inadequate" to justify a violation.)
Sisko interfered with the internal politics of Bajor on more than one occasion, although this may not technically be his fault, as it was mostly because his opinion as the Emissary was sought. (However, he was directly responsible for the Bajorans withdrawing their application for Federation membership.)
Basically, we're going to have to go around killing every named captain in Starfleet.
i think janeway was meant to be written as breaking the law, countering ethics, and going into that dark place to extremetise* her desperation to get the crew home
Picard was court marshalled for losing the Stargazer, even though he had no way to escape the order to abandon ship.
Also, this was Starfleet's first major encounter with the Borg; Locutus was responsible for 11,000 deaths of his fellow officers, and Picard wasn't even put before an inquest until 'The Drumhead'!
Even if Picard would have been absolved, there would still have had to have been an inquest into charges of treason!
Also, the charge of treason against Janeway would require her loyalty to the Federation to be in doubt. As she destroyed the Collective, that wipes any idea of disloyalty from the situation.
the stargazer was before the borg so dunno how that fits the point made. moving on.
there wouldnt need to be a trial or an inquest, but there would of been psychological tests to determine picard's sanity over the borg incident and becoming an unwilling pawn, that would account for any potential inquests including ample proof he had no control over his actions and no way to get any control.
im assuming the janeway arguement was for another poster, if it isnt, it has no direct impact on picard and what happened after the borg.
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the stargazer was before the borg so dunno how that fits the point made. moving on.
there wouldnt need to be a trial or an inquest, but there would of been psychological tests to determine picard's sanity over the borg incident and becoming an unwilling pawn, that would account for any potential inquests including ample proof he had no control over his actions and no way to get any control.
im assuming the janeway arguement was for another poster, if it isnt, it has no direct impact on picard and what happened after the borg.
The point was that Picard had already been court-martialled for events outside his control in the past, which means that is an invalid reason for him not at least being investigated after Wolf 359.
you know every one talks about what janeway allies with the Borg but did not the US do something similar in WW2? we took a enemy turned allies to fight a bigger threat plz someone correct me if im wrong
You want to execute people for violating the Prime Directive?
Kirk at Eminiar VII.
Kirk at Neural. (Yes, it could be argued that the Klingons started arming one side first, but was arming the other side really the appropriate response?)
Kirk and McCoy at Capella IV. (Again, "the Klingons did it first" doesn't really seem to justify it.)
Kirk and McCoy at Yonada.
Kirk at Ardana.
In "The Drumhead", Picard was accused of nine violations of the Prime Directive. (And he was the one who found reasoning similar to Kirk's at Neural to be "inadequate" to justify a violation.)
Sisko interfered with the internal politics of Bajor on more than one occasion, although this may not technically be his fault, as it was mostly because his opinion as the Emissary was sought. (However, he was directly responsible for the Bajorans withdrawing their application for Federation membership.)
Basically, we're going to have to go around killing every named captain in Starfleet.
as i recall with Eminiar VII, they were pre warp, just by being on the planets surface is a violation of the prime directive let alone destroying the computers.
kirk already had a friend on neural and again just being there to a pre-warp race is a violation and anything after the point was meddling in affairs foreign to starfleet regardless of what the klingons do.
with capella IV it was for resources, topaline, again its yet another pre-warp race and another violation of the prime directive.
the yonada incident could be explained away that the worldship would destroy Daran V and so intervention would be required, as it turned out it was as the people didnt think that what they were living on was a ship or what their oracle was doing. it was a disaster waiting to happen and the destruction of the worldship and 4 billion people on the planet nearby would of perished otherwise. in the strictest sense, just intefering with the oracle and its people was enough to count because its an internal affair to these people.
i think you missed something at ardana, the planet and its people fell into federation jurisdiction, kirk had every right to get the troglytes better conditions then what they had and nothing was broken by doing it.
maybe you were not paying attention to Satie's thinking at the time, but she was upset when she made that claim and it was clear that Admiral Henry was not amused by her lack of ability with the authority she was given, anyone can get angry and say something silly. turns out she was stripped of her powers and position later on. below is the argument:
"You know, there are some words I've known since I was a schoolboy: 'With the first link, the chain is forged. The first speech censured...the first thought forbidden...the first freedom denied--chains us all irrevocably.' Those words were uttered by Judge Aaron Satie, as wisdom...and warning. The first time any man's freedom is trodden on, we're all damaged. I fear that today--" - picard.
"How dare you! You who consort with Romulans, invoke my father's name to support your traitorous arguments? It is an offense to everything I hold dear! And to hear those words used to subvert the United Federation of Planets! My father was a great man! His name stands for integrity and principle! You DIRTY his name when you speak it! He loved the Federation! But you, Captain, corrupt it! You undermine our very way of life! I will expose you for what you are! I've brought down bigger men than you, Picard!!" - Satie.
if you mean b'hala? sisko realized bajor must be left alone, if he hadnt had that vision the chances are the bajorans would be another occupied world by the dominion and the prophets dont want bajor caught in such a thing, sisko being the conduit for the prophets played his part as if there was ever any doubt to the prophets. it turns out it was the correct choice even if it delayed bajoran application into the federation for a while. as for the rest, there wasnt any choice in the matter sisko was the emmissary to both the people and the instrument of the prophets regardless how he felt, at first he was hesitant but after the d'jarra incident, sisko challenged and won his position back and used his position as a figurehead i would imagine as bajor is still outside federation control so thats that, however if bajor asked for help which they have at times, sisko can interfere to a point. i dont really see anything he violated the prime directive on, maybe poisoning the maquis colonies but apart from that.
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I mean that it's been repeated several times since it was first stated in "The Omega Glory" that a captain's responsibility is to the Prime Directive, even ahead of the well-being of his ship and crew.
Yonada could have been dealt with via a volley of photon torpedoes - the intent would have been to adjust the orbit of an asteroid, the result would have been the destruction of a hollow rock, but either way General Order One would have been preserved.
According to TNG and later sources, even interfering in the internal politics of any given world was out for Starfleet - Kirk's intervention on behalf of the Troglytes on Ardana was an even bigger violation than Picard's agreeing to adjudicate the Klingon Chancellorship (which you might recall was a matter raised in that very episode).
And Sisko's bad dreams should not have been made the basis of decisions by another world, one of which he was not even a native, particularly while he was a Starfleet officer.
Basically, violation of the Prime Directive is a pretty common plot element for Star Trek - it's an easy way to give the captain and crew a moral dilemma to deal with, while keeping the show's Utopian elements.
I know some folks hate Janeway passionately, as if her decisions were somehow out of place for Trek - but the only thing unique about VOY was that it was uniquely badly written. That's not the character's fault.
I mean that it's been repeated several times since it was first stated in "The Omega Glory" that a captain's responsibility is to the Prime Directive, even ahead of the well-being of his ship and crew.
Yonada could have been dealt with via a volley of photon torpedoes - the intent would have been to adjust the orbit of an asteroid, the result would have been the destruction of a hollow rock, but either way General Order One would have been preserved.
According to TNG and later sources, even interfering in the internal politics of any given world was out for Starfleet - Kirk's intervention on behalf of the Troglytes on Ardana was an even bigger violation than Picard's agreeing to adjudicate the Klingon Chancellorship (which you might recall was a matter raised in that very episode).
And Sisko's bad dreams should not have been made the basis of decisions by another world, one of which he was not even a native, particularly while he was a Starfleet officer.
Basically, violation of the Prime Directive is a pretty common plot element for Star Trek - it's an easy way to give the captain and crew a moral dilemma to deal with, while keeping the show's Utopian elements.
I know some folks hate Janeway passionately, as if her decisions were somehow out of place for Trek - but the only thing unique about VOY was that it was uniquely badly written. That's not the character's fault.
torpedoes would of destroyed that ship and its people, kirk would of been up for warcrimes and breaking his word as a starfleet officer to protect the federation, starfleet and the integrity of each group. to represent them in such a blatant disregard and when word gets out what kirk did and if starfleet protects him it would be a nightmare.
it could be argued that the prime directive was altered between the century, and what wouldnt be acceptable in picards time could of been possible in kirks. as for picard officiating the empire as arbiter of succession, that was to prevent a potential diplomatic mess or war later on and also that he didnt have any choice, km'pec had already arranged everything.
the prophets see things differently and they knew exactly what would happen to sisko in any event, thousands of years in advance with the ancient city, the stone structure, everything. it was destined to happen as far as the prophets are concerned regardless. on top of this sisko wasnt thinking clearly anyway, something was adjusting something in his head later discovered by bashir that almost killed sisko. in these cases there was nothing he could do about the prime directive, its the same as picard being a borg, he had no control, it was already done.
the prime directive, there was never anything to definitively point out what it really was.
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torpedoes would of destroyed that ship and its people, kirk would of been up for warcrimes and breaking his word as a starfleet officer to protect the federation, starfleet and the integrity of each group. to represent them in such a blatant disregard and when word gets out what kirk did and if starfleet protects him it would be a nightmare.
No. First of all, the Fabrini weren't members of the Federation, so the oath you cite would not have come into play. Secondly, it could only be considered a "war crime" if anyone had any inkling that this asteroid a) were hollow, and b) were occupied - data they did not have until going inside. Had the asteroid been dealt with in a sensible fashion, there would have been deaths, as it turned out, but while Kirk might have held himself responsible for them, the legal system would not have.
it could be argued that the prime directive was altered between the century, and what wouldnt be acceptable in picards time could of been possible in kirks. as for picard officiating the empire as arbiter of succession, that was to prevent a potential diplomatic mess or war later on and also that he didnt have any choice, km'pec had already arranged everything.
It could also be argued that Starfleet is being run by a gang of paranoid schizophenics. Just about anything can be "argued". Until it's stated, however, there's little reason to believe a General Order would be altered like that. We're not talking about local speed ordinances or something.
And of course Picard had a choice. He could have refused. That would have been the legally correct course. He chose to honor K'mpec's request.
the prophets see things differently and they knew exactly what would happen to sisko in any event, thousands of years in advance with the ancient city, the stone structure, everything. it was destined to happen as far as the prophets are concerned regardless. on top of this sisko wasnt thinking clearly anyway, something was adjusting something in his head later discovered by bashir that almost killed sisko. in these cases there was nothing he could do about the prime directive, its the same as picard being a borg, he had no control, it was already done.
Since when do the Prophets control Starfleet, and dictate whether or not the rules apply? Why should Starfleet decide whether or not to prosecute an officer based on the "prophecies" of a group of aliens that won't even show themselves at a regular hearing? Are we then to make judgements based on the writings of Kahless, or the prophecies of Nostradamus?
And when an officer is "not thinking clearly" due to "something" in his brain, the correct action is for him to relieve himself of command, not to continue to operate as the commander of a major strategic location (and its associated warship!) while potentially subject to the control of alien beings which may not have the Federation's best interests in mind.
And why are we so eager to excuse the crimes of every captain in Starfleet except Janeway?
and ppl dont know what every admiral in starfleet does where they were at if they was even commanding a ship and that admiral desk bit getting old till you produce an episode of star trek you can only guess witch a lot here love doing as if it was there job
the equinox never existed in the dq. the story of the equinox was a cover for the 'brave' voyager crew, and what they did to escape.
the 'sliptream' drive, was a technology they stole from an undine protectorate race being decimated by the borg, after voyager gave the borg anti-undine weapons in exchange for safe passage.
future janeway never happened.
the stupid behaviour displayed by the borg that allowed voyager near their ships, as well as 'liberation' of borg vessels, was a result of ai rampancy caused by undine cyber warfare.
voyager did use a borg transwarp condiut to get home, but it and its defence force was being attacked by the undine, which allowed voyager to get through.
this undine assault is what destroyed the tw hub and queen.
but this act couldnt be attributed to a race janeway made an enemy out of.
the official story is shown in the series, but its only propaganda the federation ministry of culture created because the feds wanted the tactical data and technology it had... acquired, without losing face.
the alternative is you believe an intrepid, at best a destroyer or picket cruiser, could attack borg cubes and survive. and escape without / outrun pursuit of transwarp capable ships which are whole orders of magnitude more powerful. and is magically more powerful than virtually any of the obviously uncivilised natives who need the gospel of the federation to show them the light.:rolleyes:
By that same token every on screen appearance of Section 31 is a propaganda piece designed to make them look evil and they are in fact the nicest most generous people in the quadrant, regularly handing out candy to orphans and adopting stray dogs.
If we're going to edit the continuity and established lore why stop, Q was just a dream and Picard never made captain, he was just a Lt playing Holodeck stories, while Reg Barclay is a holographic decoy, and the real Reg is the most dangerous Space Pirate this side of Tau Dewa
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By that same token every on screen appearance of Section 31 is a propaganda piece designed to make them look evil and they are in fact the nicest most generous people in the quadrant, regularly handing out candy to orphans and adopting stray dogs.
If we're going to edit the continuity and established lore why stop, Q was just a dream and Picard never made captain, he was just a Lt playing Holodeck stories, while Reg Barclay is a holographic decoy, and the real Reg is the most dangerous Space Pirate this side of Tau Dewa
nice guys dont try to commit genocide or do you forget what they did to odo?
nice guys dont try to commit genocide or do you forget what they did to odo?
But, "by his headcanon", that never happened!
That's the fun part about headcanon - if you refuse to accept the official canon, you can make up any story you want, about any part of the universe. Heck, you can decide that after TAS ended, everyone got too wrapped up in holodeck fantasies to explore space any more, and everything after that was a series of elaborate holonovels! And any discrepancies between the tales can be attributed to the different holonovel authors.
Of course, pretty soon you're not watching the same Trek the rest of us are, and attempts to discuss it become pointless...
I think a better example for Picard was his decision to NOT use "Hugh" as a weapon in "I, Borg".
He had the opportunity to cripple, if not completely destroy the Borg and he wimped out. The Janeway haters just love to bemoan Janeway for aligning with the Borg, allowing them to continue assimilating other species, while Picard's inaction accomplished the same exact thing.
The real difference is that "I, Borg" was written by a very talented writer. "Scorpion" was written by a complete idiot.
Actually, Picard did try to destroy the Collective in that instance, but in a non-military fashion. He thought the Borg would assimilate Hugh's newfound individuality and disintegrate without him having to kill anyone. That's completely in line with his character as a die-hard idealist and it lets him avoid the moral question of using an individual as a Typhoid Mary.
Unfortunately the decision was based on incomplete intelligence. As we learned in "Descent" the Borg have a simple and utterly elegant way of dealing with cyberattacks. They just sever the connection altogether, just like a real life network security guy would just unplug the computer. So the attempt didn't work.
you know every one talks about what janeway allies with the Borg but did not the US do something similar in WW2? we took a enemy turned allies to fight a bigger threat plz someone correct me if im wrong
The difference is that in World War II we had hard, concrete evidence that Hitler and Hirohito and their ilk were bigger threats in the short term than Stalin. What evidence did we have for the Undine being the bigger threat besides writer fiat?
Oh, that's right, none whatsoever. We had unverifiable hearsay from an untrained psychic with wildly fluctuating and unreliable powers, and we had a random attack on an armed away team wandering around like idiots in an active war zone.
If we had actually been shown that the Undine were actively and systematically targeting noncombatants, then maybe that would qualify as mitigating circumstances sufficient to counter a treason charge. We were not. By contrast, we have a veritable orgy of utterly incontrovertible evidence that the Borg are an omnicidal threat. And therefore Janeway sold out the galaxy and broke the Prime Directive and her own sworn word to serve the Federation, not on any moral grounds, but because she wanted to shave a few months off her return trip.
"Great War! / And I cannot take more! / Great tour! / I keep on marching on / I play the great score / There will be no encore / Great War! / The War to End All Wars"
— Sabaton, "Great War"
had that discussion before, picard had no control over himself or his body as a borg, what could he of done? essentially the borg used him as a figurehead to demoralize starfleet by the borg queen, he was a victim as much as anyone else. how could you charge picard for that? i have the perfect counter for your thinking, but it would be a bit too much for the tos and these forums so il try and generalize it a bit, i would just put it in the area of physical assault with mental aftereffects and blaming the woman for some mans control and actions, i mean how could you blame her?
Star Trek likes to do stuff that is fundamentally way out of scope in anything that we experience in reality.
The closest we could come to something like Picard as Borg is some US soldier being brainwashed with heavy drugs, ****, torture and what not and commanding an assault on a US base or something like that.
I suppose even if he was ultiamtely considered "not guilty", and went through a therapy (which may or may not involve a mud fight with his elder brother), I do not quite believe he would be accepted back as commanding officer.
But that's the thing - this so so out of scope. Becoming part of a hive mind is not something anyone experienced, and it's not just like some form of extreme brain washing. And maybe it can really be removed with all trace (though it kinda wasn't, as we learn in First Contact, but the remainder has a positive effect). So maybe it's just fine to bring him back.
And the same thing is true for a situation like Janeway and the Undine. I don't think we ever had a miltiary commander suddenly finding his hated enemy being attacked by an even worse enemy that will first make your hated enemy go away, and then you. And after your temporary alliance and the sudden but inevitable betrayal of your hated enemy, you end up blowing up a significant part of his infrastructure and come back.
I actually think this is easier to handle than the brainwashed Picard.
And, to not stop with Startrek stories so far out of scope of our reality - I don't think we ever had a military cadet stop a city-destroying super-weapon from being applied to his nation's capital by taking command of a military unit after the original commanding officer was captured, and beating a superior enemy with a unit mostly consisting of cadets or young graduates.
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can you say without a doubt 8472 was going to stop after the borg?!?!?! seeing what one ship did to 15 borg cubs what was the invasion force coming through the Northwest passage for the "weak will perish" sorry human are weak to the borg so what you think they are going to do after them go back home? bhaHHAHAHHAHAHHAHAHHA like saying Hitler was going to stop after conquering Europe.......... ya fing right
you janeway hater need to let it go and move on show was successful and think some of you hate the fact of that
and every damn captain in the TV shows has broke the damn Prime Directive stop trying to make out janeway the only one to do so
Captain Sisko targets a Marquis colony with a biogenic weapon making it uninhabitable to human just so he could get the one that pulled the skirt poor captain sisko head
Captain Sisko does not turn in Garak for the murder of a romulan senator also Vice-Chairman of the Tal Shiar just so he could get the romulans in on the war
seeing what one ship did to 15 borg cubs what was the invasion force coming through the Northwest passage
So they blew up a few cubes and a couple Borg-held planets. So what?
You, like so many of the other Roddenberry loyalists, are operating under a fundamental misconception of how the Borg operate. This is not an enemy that has a civilian population to cause collateral damage to. Literally every drone is either an active combatant or involved in support operations, making each and every solitary drone a legitimate military target.
If anything blowing up Borg planets speaks to the Undine being pragmatists. Their technology has an utterly different technical lineage so there's no point in capturing Borg tech for study and reverse-engineering. Ergo there's no point in devoting the massive forces required to launch a protracted ground campaign. Ergo it's simpler and cheaper to just kill their enemy all at once and not put their troops at risk any more than they have to.
Not happening. Unless you can come up with a counterargument not reliant on writer fiat, get used to it.
"Great War! / And I cannot take more! / Great tour! / I keep on marching on / I play the great score / There will be no encore / Great War! / The War to End All Wars"
— Sabaton, "Great War"
Problem # 1 with the pro-Janeway argument: The Borg WOULD have adapted to 8472. This is established canon; throwing more raw power at the Borg only makes them adapt slower; they still adapt, they just can't do it as quickly because the Undine are nuking their ships before they can take enough readings.
Problem # 2: NOTHING excuses the nanite torpedo attack. Nothing. That is like...A US soldier allying with ISIS, cooking up an anthrax bomb, and using it on Iran.
Janeway's actions were fundamentally evil. Nothing can change that.
Problem # 3: As stated above, the writers of Voyager, and "Scorpion" in particular, were freaking idiots who make Stephen Moffat, Robert Orci, and JJ Abrams look like Shakespeare.
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Problem # 1 with the pro-Janeway argument: The Borg WOULD have adapted to 8472. This is established canon; throwing more raw power at the Borg only makes them adapt slower; they still adapt, they just can't do it as quickly because the Undine are nuking their ships before they can take enough readings.
Problem # 2: NOTHING excuses the nanite torpedo attack. Nothing. That is like...A US soldier allying with ISIS, cooking up an anthrax bomb, and using it on Iran.
Janeway's actions were fundamentally evil. Nothing can change that.
Problem # 3: As stated above, the writers of Voyager, and "Scorpion" in particular, were freaking idiots who make Stephen Moffat, Robert Orci, and JJ Abrams look like Shakespeare.
Just checking, worffan, as I think I remember you saying you like the BBC Sherlock series, but you do realise who writes that series, right?
Anyway, I'm really not going to get into this argument, because I'm sick and tired of it, honestly. Let's face it; whatever points the pro-Janeway camp come up with, it will never be enough because you've already made up your mind, so the argument is pointless and everyone here should just agree to disagree.
Oh, and not necro a 3-month-old thread on this topic just because it was linked here. That would help.
Comments
Kirk at Eminiar VII.
Kirk at Neural. (Yes, it could be argued that the Klingons started arming one side first, but was arming the other side really the appropriate response?)
Kirk and McCoy at Capella IV. (Again, "the Klingons did it first" doesn't really seem to justify it.)
Kirk and McCoy at Yonada.
Kirk at Ardana.
In "The Drumhead", Picard was accused of nine violations of the Prime Directive. (And he was the one who found reasoning similar to Kirk's at Neural to be "inadequate" to justify a violation.)
Sisko interfered with the internal politics of Bajor on more than one occasion, although this may not technically be his fault, as it was mostly because his opinion as the Emissary was sought. (However, he was directly responsible for the Bajorans withdrawing their application for Federation membership.)
Basically, we're going to have to go around killing every named captain in Starfleet.
*new word i invented
the stargazer was before the borg so dunno how that fits the point made. moving on.
there wouldnt need to be a trial or an inquest, but there would of been psychological tests to determine picard's sanity over the borg incident and becoming an unwilling pawn, that would account for any potential inquests including ample proof he had no control over his actions and no way to get any control.
im assuming the janeway arguement was for another poster, if it isnt, it has no direct impact on picard and what happened after the borg.
Been around since Dec 2010 on STO and bought LTS in Apr 2013 for STO.
The point was that Picard had already been court-martialled for events outside his control in the past, which means that is an invalid reason for him not at least being investigated after Wolf 359.
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as i recall with Eminiar VII, they were pre warp, just by being on the planets surface is a violation of the prime directive let alone destroying the computers.
kirk already had a friend on neural and again just being there to a pre-warp race is a violation and anything after the point was meddling in affairs foreign to starfleet regardless of what the klingons do.
with capella IV it was for resources, topaline, again its yet another pre-warp race and another violation of the prime directive.
the yonada incident could be explained away that the worldship would destroy Daran V and so intervention would be required, as it turned out it was as the people didnt think that what they were living on was a ship or what their oracle was doing. it was a disaster waiting to happen and the destruction of the worldship and 4 billion people on the planet nearby would of perished otherwise. in the strictest sense, just intefering with the oracle and its people was enough to count because its an internal affair to these people.
i think you missed something at ardana, the planet and its people fell into federation jurisdiction, kirk had every right to get the troglytes better conditions then what they had and nothing was broken by doing it.
maybe you were not paying attention to Satie's thinking at the time, but she was upset when she made that claim and it was clear that Admiral Henry was not amused by her lack of ability with the authority she was given, anyone can get angry and say something silly. turns out she was stripped of her powers and position later on. below is the argument:
"You know, there are some words I've known since I was a schoolboy: 'With the first link, the chain is forged. The first speech censured...the first thought forbidden...the first freedom denied--chains us all irrevocably.' Those words were uttered by Judge Aaron Satie, as wisdom...and warning. The first time any man's freedom is trodden on, we're all damaged. I fear that today--" - picard.
"How dare you! You who consort with Romulans, invoke my father's name to support your traitorous arguments? It is an offense to everything I hold dear! And to hear those words used to subvert the United Federation of Planets! My father was a great man! His name stands for integrity and principle! You DIRTY his name when you speak it! He loved the Federation! But you, Captain, corrupt it! You undermine our very way of life! I will expose you for what you are! I've brought down bigger men than you, Picard!!" - Satie.
if you mean b'hala? sisko realized bajor must be left alone, if he hadnt had that vision the chances are the bajorans would be another occupied world by the dominion and the prophets dont want bajor caught in such a thing, sisko being the conduit for the prophets played his part as if there was ever any doubt to the prophets. it turns out it was the correct choice even if it delayed bajoran application into the federation for a while. as for the rest, there wasnt any choice in the matter sisko was the emmissary to both the people and the instrument of the prophets regardless how he felt, at first he was hesitant but after the d'jarra incident, sisko challenged and won his position back and used his position as a figurehead i would imagine as bajor is still outside federation control so thats that, however if bajor asked for help which they have at times, sisko can interfere to a point. i dont really see anything he violated the prime directive on, maybe poisoning the maquis colonies but apart from that.
Been around since Dec 2010 on STO and bought LTS in Apr 2013 for STO.
Yonada could have been dealt with via a volley of photon torpedoes - the intent would have been to adjust the orbit of an asteroid, the result would have been the destruction of a hollow rock, but either way General Order One would have been preserved.
According to TNG and later sources, even interfering in the internal politics of any given world was out for Starfleet - Kirk's intervention on behalf of the Troglytes on Ardana was an even bigger violation than Picard's agreeing to adjudicate the Klingon Chancellorship (which you might recall was a matter raised in that very episode).
And Sisko's bad dreams should not have been made the basis of decisions by another world, one of which he was not even a native, particularly while he was a Starfleet officer.
Basically, violation of the Prime Directive is a pretty common plot element for Star Trek - it's an easy way to give the captain and crew a moral dilemma to deal with, while keeping the show's Utopian elements.
I know some folks hate Janeway passionately, as if her decisions were somehow out of place for Trek - but the only thing unique about VOY was that it was uniquely badly written. That's not the character's fault.
torpedoes would of destroyed that ship and its people, kirk would of been up for warcrimes and breaking his word as a starfleet officer to protect the federation, starfleet and the integrity of each group. to represent them in such a blatant disregard and when word gets out what kirk did and if starfleet protects him it would be a nightmare.
it could be argued that the prime directive was altered between the century, and what wouldnt be acceptable in picards time could of been possible in kirks. as for picard officiating the empire as arbiter of succession, that was to prevent a potential diplomatic mess or war later on and also that he didnt have any choice, km'pec had already arranged everything.
the prophets see things differently and they knew exactly what would happen to sisko in any event, thousands of years in advance with the ancient city, the stone structure, everything. it was destined to happen as far as the prophets are concerned regardless. on top of this sisko wasnt thinking clearly anyway, something was adjusting something in his head later discovered by bashir that almost killed sisko. in these cases there was nothing he could do about the prime directive, its the same as picard being a borg, he had no control, it was already done.
the prime directive, there was never anything to definitively point out what it really was.
Been around since Dec 2010 on STO and bought LTS in Apr 2013 for STO.
It could also be argued that Starfleet is being run by a gang of paranoid schizophenics. Just about anything can be "argued". Until it's stated, however, there's little reason to believe a General Order would be altered like that. We're not talking about local speed ordinances or something.
And of course Picard had a choice. He could have refused. That would have been the legally correct course. He chose to honor K'mpec's request.
Since when do the Prophets control Starfleet, and dictate whether or not the rules apply? Why should Starfleet decide whether or not to prosecute an officer based on the "prophecies" of a group of aliens that won't even show themselves at a regular hearing? Are we then to make judgements based on the writings of Kahless, or the prophecies of Nostradamus?
And when an officer is "not thinking clearly" due to "something" in his brain, the correct action is for him to relieve himself of command, not to continue to operate as the commander of a major strategic location (and its associated warship!) while potentially subject to the control of alien beings which may not have the Federation's best interests in mind.
And why are we so eager to excuse the crimes of every captain in Starfleet except Janeway?
I disagree with your opinion on Janeway, but I have to admit that this bit is 100% spot-on.
and ppl dont know what every admiral in starfleet does where they were at if they was even commanding a ship and that admiral desk bit getting old till you produce an episode of star trek you can only guess witch a lot here love doing as if it was there job
system Lord Baal is dead
The Prime Directive is a fake rule Starfleet uses to look more heroic when they meddle.
If we actually followed the Prime Directive, this is what we'd look like.
So.
Sorry.
Bro.
-Leonard Nimoy, RIP
By that same token every on screen appearance of Section 31 is a propaganda piece designed to make them look evil and they are in fact the nicest most generous people in the quadrant, regularly handing out candy to orphans and adopting stray dogs.
If we're going to edit the continuity and established lore why stop, Q was just a dream and Picard never made captain, he was just a Lt playing Holodeck stories, while Reg Barclay is a holographic decoy, and the real Reg is the most dangerous Space Pirate this side of Tau Dewa
nice guys dont try to commit genocide or do you forget what they did to odo?
system Lord Baal is dead
That's the fun part about headcanon - if you refuse to accept the official canon, you can make up any story you want, about any part of the universe. Heck, you can decide that after TAS ended, everyone got too wrapped up in holodeck fantasies to explore space any more, and everything after that was a series of elaborate holonovels! And any discrepancies between the tales can be attributed to the different holonovel authors.
Of course, pretty soon you're not watching the same Trek the rest of us are, and attempts to discuss it become pointless...
Actually, Picard did try to destroy the Collective in that instance, but in a non-military fashion. He thought the Borg would assimilate Hugh's newfound individuality and disintegrate without him having to kill anyone. That's completely in line with his character as a die-hard idealist and it lets him avoid the moral question of using an individual as a Typhoid Mary.
Unfortunately the decision was based on incomplete intelligence. As we learned in "Descent" the Borg have a simple and utterly elegant way of dealing with cyberattacks. They just sever the connection altogether, just like a real life network security guy would just unplug the computer. So the attempt didn't work.
The difference is that in World War II we had hard, concrete evidence that Hitler and Hirohito and their ilk were bigger threats in the short term than Stalin. What evidence did we have for the Undine being the bigger threat besides writer fiat?
Oh, that's right, none whatsoever. We had unverifiable hearsay from an untrained psychic with wildly fluctuating and unreliable powers, and we had a random attack on an armed away team wandering around like idiots in an active war zone.
If we had actually been shown that the Undine were actively and systematically targeting noncombatants, then maybe that would qualify as mitigating circumstances sufficient to counter a treason charge. We were not. By contrast, we have a veritable orgy of utterly incontrovertible evidence that the Borg are an omnicidal threat. And therefore Janeway sold out the galaxy and broke the Prime Directive and her own sworn word to serve the Federation, not on any moral grounds, but because she wanted to shave a few months off her return trip.
— Sabaton, "Great War"
Check out https://unitedfederationofpla.net/s/
Star Trek likes to do stuff that is fundamentally way out of scope in anything that we experience in reality.
The closest we could come to something like Picard as Borg is some US soldier being brainwashed with heavy drugs, ****, torture and what not and commanding an assault on a US base or something like that.
I suppose even if he was ultiamtely considered "not guilty", and went through a therapy (which may or may not involve a mud fight with his elder brother), I do not quite believe he would be accepted back as commanding officer.
But that's the thing - this so so out of scope. Becoming part of a hive mind is not something anyone experienced, and it's not just like some form of extreme brain washing. And maybe it can really be removed with all trace (though it kinda wasn't, as we learn in First Contact, but the remainder has a positive effect). So maybe it's just fine to bring him back.
And the same thing is true for a situation like Janeway and the Undine. I don't think we ever had a miltiary commander suddenly finding his hated enemy being attacked by an even worse enemy that will first make your hated enemy go away, and then you. And after your temporary alliance and the sudden but inevitable betrayal of your hated enemy, you end up blowing up a significant part of his infrastructure and come back.
I actually think this is easier to handle than the brainwashed Picard.
And, to not stop with Startrek stories so far out of scope of our reality - I don't think we ever had a military cadet stop a city-destroying super-weapon from being applied to his nation's capital by taking command of a military unit after the original commanding officer was captured, and beating a superior enemy with a unit mostly consisting of cadets or young graduates.
you janeway hater need to let it go and move on show was successful and think some of you hate the fact of that
and every damn captain in the TV shows has broke the damn Prime Directive stop trying to make out janeway the only one to do so
Captain Sisko targets a Marquis colony with a biogenic weapon making it uninhabitable to human just so he could get the one that pulled the skirt poor captain sisko head
Captain Sisko does not turn in Garak for the murder of a romulan senator also Vice-Chairman of the Tal Shiar just so he could get the romulans in on the war
system Lord Baal is dead
So they blew up a few cubes and a couple Borg-held planets. So what?
You, like so many of the other Roddenberry loyalists, are operating under a fundamental misconception of how the Borg operate. This is not an enemy that has a civilian population to cause collateral damage to. Literally every drone is either an active combatant or involved in support operations, making each and every solitary drone a legitimate military target.
If anything blowing up Borg planets speaks to the Undine being pragmatists. Their technology has an utterly different technical lineage so there's no point in capturing Borg tech for study and reverse-engineering. Ergo there's no point in devoting the massive forces required to launch a protracted ground campaign. Ergo it's simpler and cheaper to just kill their enemy all at once and not put their troops at risk any more than they have to.
Not happening. Unless you can come up with a counterargument not reliant on writer fiat, get used to it.
— Sabaton, "Great War"
Check out https://unitedfederationofpla.net/s/
Problem # 2: NOTHING excuses the nanite torpedo attack. Nothing. That is like...A US soldier allying with ISIS, cooking up an anthrax bomb, and using it on Iran.
Janeway's actions were fundamentally evil. Nothing can change that.
Problem # 3: As stated above, the writers of Voyager, and "Scorpion" in particular, were freaking idiots who make Stephen Moffat, Robert Orci, and JJ Abrams look like Shakespeare.
Let us explore it... together. Each man hides a secret pain. It must be exposed and reckoned with. It must be dragged from the darkness and forced into the light. Share your pain. Share your pain with me... and gain strength from the sharing.
Just checking, worffan, as I think I remember you saying you like the BBC Sherlock series, but you do realise who writes that series, right?
Anyway, I'm really not going to get into this argument, because I'm sick and tired of it, honestly. Let's face it; whatever points the pro-Janeway camp come up with, it will never be enough because you've already made up your mind, so the argument is pointless and everyone here should just agree to disagree.
Oh, and not necro a 3-month-old thread on this topic just because it was linked here. That would help.
Trials of Blood and Fire
Moving On Parts 1-3 - Part 4
In Cold Blood
system Lord Baal is dead
then get used to me posting the same over and over because we did this same song and dance in the other janeway hater thread and ones before that
system Lord Baal is dead