big guns that destroyed 15 cub with one ship add in more you got star trek version of a Death Star
Again, so frakking what? They were targeting Borg. Who gives a f**k?
I frakking cheered when the Undine blew up Kessik IV, because it meant several hundred thousand Borg I wouldn't have to risk my own crew to kill with conventional weapons because Starfleet Command are too much of a collection of ****ing cowardly pansies to give me the required equipment.
"Great War! / And I cannot take more! / Great tour! / I keep on marching on / I play the great score / There will be no encore / Great War! / The War to End All Wars"
— Sabaton, "Great War"
Oh, you mean those tactics and strategies and weapons that totally PWNed that ONE Borg ship at Wolf 359?
Oh, wait. That was a titanic disaster for Starfleet. Thousands were killed or assimilated, dozens of ships lost, Earth was nearly taken by the Borg.
Yeah. I'm still taking the Undine every day of the week.
Less you forget 359 was the first time starfleet ever encountered the borg
Im talking presently why bring up that first encounter when time has marched on
and since 359 weapons tactics and stratagies have been developed to deal with the borg.
Again, so frakking what? They were targeting Borg. Who gives a f**k?
I frakking cheered when the Undine blew up Kessik IV, because it meant several hundred thousand Borg I wouldn't have to risk my own crew to kill with conventional weapons because Starfleet Command are too much of a collection of ****ing cowardly pansies to give me the required equipment.
see their no debate with you... you have made up your mind they would go home after killing off the borg and ive made mind up they would kill off the rest of the universe to bad not one of us will never know
got a question do you think Hitler would have stopped after conquering Europe? or would he have came after the USA
Less you forget 359 was the first time starfleet ever encountered the borg
Im talking presently why bring up that first encounter when time has marched on
and since 359 weapons tactics and stratagies have been developed to deal with the borg.
You've got a POV-related problem. Story-wise the Borg are still intensely feared even in 2409. Gameplay and story segregation and power creep means the opposite is true for us the players.
And another thing you people aren't getting. I'll grant we may not have known for absolute certain whether the Undine would stop after finishing the Borg, but we know for damn sure that the Borg wouldn't stop after taking out the Undine. That in itself makes the Undine a better option.
"Great War! / And I cannot take more! / Great tour! / I keep on marching on / I play the great score / There will be no encore / Great War! / The War to End All Wars"
— Sabaton, "Great War"
Less you forget 359 was the first time starfleet ever encountered the borg
Im talking presently why bring up that first encounter when time has marched on
and since 359 weapons tactics and stratagies have been developed to deal with the borg.
Never tested before. Never used in actual combat against the Borg.
Those strategies and tactics could have been utterly useless--probably were, in fact.
It's only because PLOT that Scorpion went down as it did.
Again, so frakking what? They were targeting Borg. Who gives a f**k?
I frakking cheered when the Undine blew up Kessik IV, because it meant several hundred thousand Borg I wouldn't have to risk my own crew to kill with conventional weapons because Starfleet Command are too much of a collection of ****ing cowardly pansies to give me the required equipment.
I agree i wouldnt shed one tear of the killing of so many borg
as the same for the undine
But if you were incharge of an invasion force and got a foot hold within you designated inavasion zone.
see their no debate you made up your mind they would go home after killing off the borg and ive made mind up they would kill off the rest of the universe to bad not one of us would never know
You bring up a good point
and proves the point that a military in motion does not stop till thier mission is accomplished
if they invade they just wont simply turn around and go home once a foot hold has been established.
see their no debate with you... you have made up your mind they would go home after killing off the borg and ive made mind up they would kill off the rest of the universe to bad not one of us will never know
got a question do you think Hitler would have stopped after conquering Europe? or would he have came after the USA
"Great War! / And I cannot take more! / Great tour! / I keep on marching on / I play the great score / There will be no encore / Great War! / The War to End All Wars"
— Sabaton, "Great War"
I agree i wouldnt shed one tear of the killing of so many borg
as the same for the undine
But if you were incharge of an invasion force and got a foot hold within you designated inavasion zone.
would you just turn around and go home?
The Undine did at Qo'noS.
"Great War! / And I cannot take more! / Great tour! / I keep on marching on / I play the great score / There will be no encore / Great War! / The War to End All Wars"
— Sabaton, "Great War"
Never tested before. Never used in actual combat against the Borg.
Those strategies and tactics could have been utterly useless--probably were, in fact.
It's only because PLOT that Scorpion went down as it did.
PLOT which brings us to the debate
plot holes have guided our hands to endless debates and hours of chatter.
But my stance is one from a military analyst and observer
and its been proven that once a military invasion force takes a foothold you either push them back with force or let them reamin as they wont just go away .
And for me if i had to choose an enemy it would be one i know not one i know little if nothing about
But i think we should end this discussion on the grounds that you and i will agree to disagree and let it drop at that as gentlemen
Remember they were met and driven back by force once thier world destroyer had been destroyed therefore they didnt simply turn around they were driven back.
this like sisko debating to senator-Vice-Chairman of the Tal Shiar Vreenak that the Dominion would not stop after conquering the feds and KDF because romulan had a non aggression pact with the Dominion
plot holes have guided our hands to endless debates and hours of chatter.
But my stance is one from a military analyst and observer
and its been proven that once a military invasion force takes a foothold you either push them back with force or let them reamin as they wont just go away .
And for me if i had to choose an enemy it would be one i know not one i know little if nothing about
But i think we should end this discussion on the grounds that you and i will agree to disagree and let it drop at that as gentlemen
I think that Israel is a good example of this.
An aggressive, right-wing Israeli government illegally took large amounts of Jordanian and Egyptian land in the Six-Day War, then stopped under international pressure. They were not forced militarily to stop; they had a foothold, but did not press the issue.
Also, given what Starfleet knows of the Borg, I'd take the Undine any day of the week. At least the Undine are individuals; they can't be single-mindedly devoted to assimilation literally all the time.
this like sisko debating to senator-Vice-Chairman of the Tal Shiar Vreenak that the Dominion would not stop after conquering the feds and KDF
Your logical fallacy is the false analogy. Ben Sisko had concrete, incontrovertible evidence of the Dominion's track record of genocide and the self-professed manifest destiny of the Founders to conquer the entire galaxy. Janeway had a psychic battle cry and some battlefield debris.
"Great War! / And I cannot take more! / Great tour! / I keep on marching on / I play the great score / There will be no encore / Great War! / The War to End All Wars"
— Sabaton, "Great War"
An aggressive, right-wing Israeli government illegally took large amounts of Jordanian and Egyptian land in the Six-Day War, then stopped under international pressure. They were not forced militarily to stop; they had a foothold, but did not press the issue.
Also, given what Starfleet knows of the Borg, I'd take the Undine any day of the week. At least the Undine are individuals; they can't be single-mindedly devoted to assimilation literally all the time.
The six day war was a war for preservation of the isreali state
When they began taking teritory it was an act of invasion
and thus when faced with the prospects of fighting multiple enemies and sanctions its a situation of either withdraw or lose that which your whole war was for in the first place preservation and soverignty .
you never going to convince me 8472 would pack up and go home after killing off the borg so round and round we go like all pointless debates on this forums
The six day war was a war for preservation of the isreali state
When they began taking teritory it was an act of invasion
and thus when faced with the prospects of fighting multiple enemies and sanctions its a situation of either withdraw or lose that which your whole war was for in the first place preservation and soverignty .
1. False. It was a panicked response by right-wing leaders to perceived Arab military buildups.
2. True.
3. Nah, they could've taken Jordan and probably at least Cairo as well. Hell, they were on the freaking doorstep of Damascus.
Sure, they would've been curb-stomped by Russia or somebody immediately thereafter, but the fact remains that they stopped BEFORE outside military force was even put on the table as an option.
this like sisko debating to senator-Vice-Chairman of the Tal Shiar Vreenak that the Dominion would not stop after conquering the feds and KDF because romulan had a non aggression pact with the Dominion
1. False. It was a panicked response by right-wing leaders to perceived Arab military buildups.
2. True.
3. Nah, they could've taken Jordan and probably at least Cairo as well. Hell, they were on the freaking doorstep of Damascus.
Sure, they would've been curb-stomped by Russia or somebody immediately thereafter, but the fact remains that they stopped BEFORE outside military force was even put on the table as an option.
In the end they withdrew due to the fact they wouldve as you said curb stomped by the USSR
there has been alot of debate since the 6 day war whether the isrealis shouldve held the ground gained and taken demascus.
An aggressive, right-wing Israeli government illegally took large amounts of Jordanian and Egyptian land in the Six-Day War, then stopped under international pressure. They were not forced militarily to stop; they had a foothold, but did not press the issue.
Also, given what Starfleet knows of the Borg, I'd take the Undine any day of the week. At least the Undine are individuals; they can't be single-mindedly devoted to assimilation literally all the time.
The six day war was a war for preservation of the isreali state
When they began taking teritory it was an act of invasion
and thus when faced with the prospects of fighting multiple enemies and sanctions its a situation of either withdraw or lose that which your whole war was for in the first place preservation and soverignty .
See, the thing about that whole mess is, except for Sinai and the Golan Heights the territory Israel took in the Six Day War had originally been conquered away from them in the war in the late '40s. And yet nobody was demanding that the Arab countries return it and calling it an illegal occupation like they did with Israel. Double standard, much? :rolleyes:
"Great War! / And I cannot take more! / Great tour! / I keep on marching on / I play the great score / There will be no encore / Great War! / The War to End All Wars"
— Sabaton, "Great War"
See, the thing about that whole mess is, except for Sinai and the Golan Heights the territory Israel took in the Six Day War had originally been conquered away from them in the war in the late '40s. And yet nobody was demanding that the Arab countries return it and calling it an illegal occupation like they did with Israel. Double standard, much? :rolleyes:
Since Israel is a state that was drawn up by bored MPs desperate to get Britain out of the Middle East, I'd say that the Israelis never had any right to that land in the first place.
Just like Syria and Iraq should have been split up instead of drawn the way they are.
In general, the current Middle East situation is entirely the fault of British and other colonial powers trying to put nice straight lines on a patchwork of vaguely standoffish ethnicities. And then putting minority groups in positions of absolute power.
Since Israel is a state that was drawn up by bored MPs desperate to get Britain out of the Middle East, I'd say that the Israelis never had any right to that land in the first place.
Just like Syria and Iraq should have been split up instead of drawn the way they are.
In general, the current Middle East situation is entirely the fault of British and other colonial powers trying to put nice straight lines on a patchwork of vaguely standoffish ethnicities. And then putting minority groups in positions of absolute power.
And intentionally playing various tribes off against each other for years so they couldn't unite and push out the colonists. And there's the really stupid ones like the CIA coup in Iran.
"Great War! / And I cannot take more! / Great tour! / I keep on marching on / I play the great score / There will be no encore / Great War! / The War to End All Wars"
— Sabaton, "Great War"
And intentionally playing various tribes off against each other for years so they couldn't unite and push out the colonists. And there's the really stupid ones like the CIA coup in Iran.
1. Not particularly, since Israel never really had a claim to that land anyway.
2. Yeah, Western nations have done some really dumb and occasionally evil stuff and never apologized for it.
When the UN has enough teeth to make them apologize for their antics, the UN will have enough teeth to beat the living tar out of Kim Jong-Un and his little totalitarian puppet show. That'll be the day...
And intentionally playing various tribes off against each other for years so they couldn't unite and push out the colonists. And there's the really stupid ones like the CIA coup in Iran.
Oust a democratically-elected leader in favor of an outmoded dictator? Really, was the ayatollah's takeover and new dictatorship REALLY that much of a surprise???
1. Not particularly, since Israel never really had a claim to that land anyway.
They had as much of a claim as the Arabs did. There's been a huge concentration of Jews there for centuries. (Not European-descended Jews, I'll grant.)
Eh, subject's a little touchy with me. I've got a couple different sets of Jewish relatives (one of my great-uncles is a rabbi, even).
When the UN has enough teeth to make them apologize for their antics, the UN will have enough teeth to beat the living tar out of Kim Jong-Un and his little totalitarian puppet show. That'll be the day...
"Great War! / And I cannot take more! / Great tour! / I keep on marching on / I play the great score / There will be no encore / Great War! / The War to End All Wars"
— Sabaton, "Great War"
Comments
Id rather take the enemy i know well the enemy i know how to defeat and have tactics startagies and weapons designed to fight.
Again, so frakking what? They were targeting Borg. Who gives a f**k?
I frakking cheered when the Undine blew up Kessik IV, because it meant several hundred thousand Borg I wouldn't have to risk my own crew to kill with conventional weapons because Starfleet Command are too much of a collection of ****ing cowardly pansies to give me the required equipment.
— Sabaton, "Great War"
Check out https://unitedfederationofpla.net/s/
Oh, you mean those tactics and strategies and weapons that totally PWNed that ONE Borg ship at Wolf 359?
Oh, wait. That was a titanic disaster for Starfleet. Thousands were killed or assimilated, dozens of ships lost, Earth was nearly taken by the Borg.
Yeah. I'm still taking the Undine every day of the week.
system Lord Baal is dead
Less you forget 359 was the first time starfleet ever encountered the borg
Im talking presently why bring up that first encounter when time has marched on
and since 359 weapons tactics and stratagies have been developed to deal with the borg.
see their no debate with you... you have made up your mind they would go home after killing off the borg and ive made mind up they would kill off the rest of the universe to bad not one of us will never know
got a question do you think Hitler would have stopped after conquering Europe? or would he have came after the USA
system Lord Baal is dead
You've got a POV-related problem. Story-wise the Borg are still intensely feared even in 2409. Gameplay and story segregation and power creep means the opposite is true for us the players.
And another thing you people aren't getting. I'll grant we may not have known for absolute certain whether the Undine would stop after finishing the Borg, but we know for damn sure that the Borg wouldn't stop after taking out the Undine. That in itself makes the Undine a better option.
— Sabaton, "Great War"
Check out https://unitedfederationofpla.net/s/
Never tested before. Never used in actual combat against the Borg.
Those strategies and tactics could have been utterly useless--probably were, in fact.
It's only because PLOT that Scorpion went down as it did.
I agree i wouldnt shed one tear of the killing of so many borg
as the same for the undine
But if you were incharge of an invasion force and got a foot hold within you designated inavasion zone.
would you just turn around and go home?
You bring up a good point
and proves the point that a military in motion does not stop till thier mission is accomplished
if they invade they just wont simply turn around and go home once a foot hold has been established.
Objection. Asked and answered. Try writing a genuinely new argument I haven't already shredded to confetti.
— Sabaton, "Great War"
Check out https://unitedfederationofpla.net/s/
its only plot that save us every time from the borg from the first moment we met them
system Lord Baal is dead
The Undine did at Qo'noS.
— Sabaton, "Great War"
Check out https://unitedfederationofpla.net/s/
when you do the same i will to
system Lord Baal is dead
PLOT which brings us to the debate
plot holes have guided our hands to endless debates and hours of chatter.
But my stance is one from a military analyst and observer
and its been proven that once a military invasion force takes a foothold you either push them back with force or let them reamin as they wont just go away .
And for me if i had to choose an enemy it would be one i know not one i know little if nothing about
But i think we should end this discussion on the grounds that you and i will agree to disagree and let it drop at that as gentlemen
Remember they were met and driven back by force once thier world destroyer had been destroyed therefore they didnt simply turn around they were driven back.
system Lord Baal is dead
I think that Israel is a good example of this.
An aggressive, right-wing Israeli government illegally took large amounts of Jordanian and Egyptian land in the Six-Day War, then stopped under international pressure. They were not forced militarily to stop; they had a foothold, but did not press the issue.
Also, given what Starfleet knows of the Borg, I'd take the Undine any day of the week. At least the Undine are individuals; they can't be single-mindedly devoted to assimilation literally all the time.
Your logical fallacy is the false analogy. Ben Sisko had concrete, incontrovertible evidence of the Dominion's track record of genocide and the self-professed manifest destiny of the Founders to conquer the entire galaxy. Janeway had a psychic battle cry and some battlefield debris.
— Sabaton, "Great War"
Check out https://unitedfederationofpla.net/s/
The six day war was a war for preservation of the isreali state
When they began taking teritory it was an act of invasion
and thus when faced with the prospects of fighting multiple enemies and sanctions its a situation of either withdraw or lose that which your whole war was for in the first place preservation and soverignty .
system Lord Baal is dead
1. False. It was a panicked response by right-wing leaders to perceived Arab military buildups.
2. True.
3. Nah, they could've taken Jordan and probably at least Cairo as well. Hell, they were on the freaking doorstep of Damascus.
Sure, they would've been curb-stomped by Russia or somebody immediately thereafter, but the fact remains that they stopped BEFORE outside military force was even put on the table as an option.
THIS IS VREEEEEENAAAAAK!!!!
In the end they withdrew due to the fact they wouldve as you said curb stomped by the USSR
there has been alot of debate since the 6 day war whether the isrealis shouldve held the ground gained and taken demascus.
a debate i dont think will end anytime soon
See, the thing about that whole mess is, except for Sinai and the Golan Heights the territory Israel took in the Six Day War had originally been conquered away from them in the war in the late '40s. And yet nobody was demanding that the Arab countries return it and calling it an illegal occupation like they did with Israel. Double standard, much? :rolleyes:
— Sabaton, "Great War"
Check out https://unitedfederationofpla.net/s/
Since Israel is a state that was drawn up by bored MPs desperate to get Britain out of the Middle East, I'd say that the Israelis never had any right to that land in the first place.
Just like Syria and Iraq should have been split up instead of drawn the way they are.
In general, the current Middle East situation is entirely the fault of British and other colonial powers trying to put nice straight lines on a patchwork of vaguely standoffish ethnicities. And then putting minority groups in positions of absolute power.
And intentionally playing various tribes off against each other for years so they couldn't unite and push out the colonists. And there's the really stupid ones like the CIA coup in Iran.
— Sabaton, "Great War"
Check out https://unitedfederationofpla.net/s/
1. Not particularly, since Israel never really had a claim to that land anyway.
2. Yeah, Western nations have done some really dumb and occasionally evil stuff and never apologized for it.
When the UN has enough teeth to make them apologize for their antics, the UN will have enough teeth to beat the living tar out of Kim Jong-Un and his little totalitarian puppet show. That'll be the day...
The CIA coupe always makes me facepalm
It was spectacularly dumb.
Oust a democratically-elected leader in favor of an outmoded dictator? Really, was the ayatollah's takeover and new dictatorship REALLY that much of a surprise???
Eh, subject's a little touchy with me. I've got a couple different sets of Jewish relatives (one of my great-uncles is a rabbi, even).
Frankly the UN's never going to have any teeth as long as the Security Council has veto power. Of course, we have to get past the veto power to get rid of it. :rolleyes:
— Sabaton, "Great War"
Check out https://unitedfederationofpla.net/s/