I never felt comfortable knowing that the original Harry Kim was left dead, frozen and floating in space in the Delta Quadrant. He was the one person who most eagerly wanted to get back to Earth but he never got to see his homeworld again. Now that X2 will give us an Iconian gateway to the Delta Quadrant, how about we go back there in a mission and retrieve his body and bring it back to Earth for a proper funeral?
After rewatching the episode on Netflix, I noticed a flaw in your overall analysis. Although the ship was split into two, the episode never talked about which one was the original. Regardless about which ship was alpha, the premise was to merge both ships into one.
Alpha-Harry Kim and Beta-Harry Kim are technically the original.
Alpha-Naomi Wildman and Beta-Naomi Wildman are technically the original.
Since there is information missing, you could technically reverse your argument. Which ship contained the original crew members? As a result of being split into two, did they both cease to be the original?
After rewatching the episode on Netflix, I noticed a flaw in your overall analysis. Although the ship was split into two, the episode never talked about which one was the original.
Actually it's not my analysis. It's the consensus of the Trek community on memory-alpha and is reflected in the article about Harry Kim there.
My personal opinion on this is that it wouldn't make sense to kill off the whole original crew that early in the series and then have copies continuing the journey. It's also a nice plot twist to sacrifice the undamaged Voyager and save the damaged one. So even if it wasn't explicitly mentioned in the episode, I tend to agree with the Trek community on this.
Actually it's not my analysis. It's the consensus of the Trek community on memory-alpha and is reflected in the article about Harry Kim there.
My personal opinion on this is that it wouldn't make sense to kill off the whole original crew that early in the series and then have copies continuing the journey. It's also a nice plot twist to sacrifice the undamaged Voyager and save the damaged one. So even if it wasn't explicitly mentioned in the episode, I tend to agree with the Trek community on this.
It would have been a nicer plot twist if damage to the Voyager lasted beyond one episode. But yeah, I noticed that in the episode, too.
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I'll throw in my two cents. I just watched that episode last week.
Real-world physics and some logical inconsistencies aside, there are still some logical conclusions that can be drawn out.
1) When Harry was blown out through the hull breach, it was from the out-of-phase Voyager. This is demonstrated because the Vidiians were able to attack the undamaged Voyager but couldn't detect the damaged one. Furthermore, the damaged Voyager was relatively undamaged from the effects of the point-blank explosion of two ships.
Reasonable to expect that Harry's body was out-of-phase at the time and may have remained out-of-phase. If that's true, his body would not have been damaged from Voyager's explosion.
However, being out-of-phase in deep space, it seems unlikely that the body would ever be recovered.
2) There wasn't a lot left when Voyager self-destructed. It took out the Vidiian ship, whose own warp core breach upon destruction would have added to the forces of detonation significantly. We're talking very, very small, very burned pieces. Maybe near-atomization.
If Harry's body didn't remain out-of-phase, I'm not sure that his body would have cleared the area of destruction. If not, he would have been cremated instantly. I'm not even going to try to do the math to figure out what the velocity was or how far away the body had to be to survive the explosion intact. It's plausible, though.
If he was ejected with enough force to carry him clear of the later explosion, or if the explosion added more force to increase his velocity, then his body would be moving fast enough to be carried far away from the location very quickly. That makes it even less likely that his body could be found that many years later, intact or otherwise.
3) The damaged Voyager couldn't return to normal space until its' 'quantum duplicate' was destroyed. But in the case of Harry's body, the living duplicate was never destroyed. Alive Harry passed through the interface to damaged Voyager and returned to normal space with it (somehow). Dead Harry was never caught in the explosion and could have remained out-of-phase.
The recovery and burial is a touching idea, but not very realistic even for Star Trek. I would admit, though, that if the body was out-of-phase and could be located somehow, that it might be more likely to be found intact than if it were caught in the explosion.
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I also favor having something like, say, a relative of Tolian Soran or Guinan turning up as a Liberated Borg.
Perhaps one of Soran's children, his wife, or Guinan's son. All were mentioned on the shows and the simplest explanation for any of them is that they were assimilated.
However with Liberated Borg turning up, well... Borg don't age.
Might be really cool if Soran's Liberated Borg relative discovers that there's a piece of Dr. Soran in the Nexus (according to producers, Guinan and Soran had echoes in the Nexus as a result of a transporter accident when the Enterprise-B beamed them over) and could set off a reason why the Nexus becomes a plot point again.
Or, he could have been rescued by an alien race, and over the years, he's turned Thomas Riker and is now evil. Do you want to deal with a guy like that?
I also favor having something like, say, a relative of Tolian Soran or Guinan turning up as a Liberated Borg.
Perhaps one of Soran's children, his wife, or Guinan's son. All were mentioned on the shows and the simplest explanation for any of them is that they were assimilated.
However with Liberated Borg turning up, well... Borg don't age.
Might be really cool if Soran's Liberated Borg relative discovers that there's a piece of Dr. Soran in the Nexus (according to producers, Guinan and Soran had echoes in the Nexus as a result of a transporter accident when the Enterprise-B beamed them over) and could set off a reason why the Nexus becomes a plot point again.
Now that you bring up the point of Ensign Kim's velocity upon exiting Voyager via hull breach... It seems unlikely that he was ejected at a high enough velocity to escape Voyagers local gravitational and electromagnetic field. Objects in space are still attracted to one another in the absence of another force acting on it. Could be that Ensign Kim was blown out only to be drawn back to Voyagers hull...
I thought for sure this thread would be questioning the sanity of Admiral Quinn or Admiral Tuvok for sending poor little Harry alone into the Delta Quadrant in a lowly Tier 2 starship to be blown into 100,000 little pieces.
Afterall, Harry Kim isn't part of a fleet, just Vanilla Starfleet, so he doesn't have access to a Tier III shipyard and the Fleet Science Vessel Retrofit.
:P
"You shoot him, I shoot you, I leave both your bodies here and go out for a late night snack.
I'm thinking maybe pancakes." ~ John Casey
Indeed, that's why Worf and Kor ultimately got rid of the Sword of Kahless by beaming it into space (and then somehow gave it a nudge to start it spinning away from the beam-out site in the last shot of that DS9 episode) - to make it next to impossible for anyone else to find.
If memory serves, one of the first KDF missions with Kahless (The clone) has him mention he got the co-ordinates off Worf, and managed to track down his old sword.
Anyway the answer is that the Illusive Man found his body, revived him with Project Lazarus, finally gave him a promotion from Ensign to Commander, and sent him to fight the Reapers.
I thought for sure this thread would be questioning the sanity of Admiral Quinn or Admiral Tuvok for sending poor little Harry alone into the Delta Quadrant in a lowly Tier 2 starship to be blown into 100,000 little pieces.
Afterall, Harry Kim isn't part of a fleet, just Vanilla Starfleet, so he doesn't have access to a Tier III shipyard and the Fleet Science Vessel Retrofit.
Second, mostly all characters on voyager were "comic sidekicks", only they weren't funny.
They were just sorted on a scale of annoying where kim was probably ranked somewhere in the middle as "quite annoying" and so when I read your topic title I actually thought this was a post about killing that character or you asking for him to not appear again lol
STO is very much canon! If they were to make a new "Next Gen" series it would need to take into account the events of STO.
But what do we do with the frozen Harry Kim? Maybe another doff mission for a burial if Feds, selling him to the Kobali if Rom or feeding him to your targ (after being defrosted) as a Klingon.
Nope the use of Nano Tech has grown so much in 30 years I am sure they revive Ensign Kim to have a long lustrious career just like Thomas Riker!
Miles Obrien is a duplicate as well, from a future timeline. In the DS9 episode where he was traveling into the future to see the destruction of DS9, early seasons.
Miles Obrien is a duplicate as well, from a future timeline. In the DS9 episode where he was traveling into the future to see the destruction of DS9, early seasons.
I almost brought this up as well but then I realized there's nothing to retrieve in his case.
Second, mostly all characters on voyager were "comic sidekicks", only they weren't funny.
They were just sorted on a scale of annoying
Tuvok and the Emergency medical hologram are among the finest characters the Star Trek franchise ever produced. Though apart from those two I will generally agree with the statement.
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"The greatest danger for most of us is not that our aim is too high and we miss it, but that it is too low and we reach it."
Second, mostly all characters on voyager were "comic sidekicks", only they weren't funny.
They were just sorted on a scale of annoying where kim was probably ranked somewhere in the middle as "quite annoying" and so when I read your topic title I actually thought this was a post about killing that character or you asking for him to not appear again lol
STO is canon
And i liked Voyager.
" Experience is a hard mistress, she gives the tests first, and the lessons after... "
STO takes place after the events that are the 2009 retake on TOS movies. Any story that takes place in STU after 2410 would have to account for STO.
STO follows canon upto 2409 and is a continuation of that story. It is sactioned by the Star Trek Franchise to be canon. To suggest otherwise is Star Trek blasphamy!
STO takes place after the events that are the 2009 retake on TOS movies. Any story that takes place in STU after 2410 would have to account for STO.
STO follows canon upto 2409 and is a continuation of that story. It is sactioned by the Star Trek Franchise to be canon. To suggest otherwise is Star Trek blasphamy!
STO is soft canon, IT's basically on level with novels, it has to accept prime universe canon from movies and shows, but it's material is not binding on other soft-canon works, and can be outright contradicted by future on-screen productions.
STO takes place after the events that are the 2009 retake on TOS movies. Any story that takes place in STU after 2410 would have to account for STO.
STO follows canon upto 2409 and is a continuation of that story. It is sactioned by the Star Trek Franchise to be canon. To suggest otherwise is Star Trek blasphamy!
Well STO could be canon, if Captain Picard or Sisko decide to install it on their Ready Room laptops and play it from time to time so it can be seen on screen.
Captain Harry Kim will meet Kobali Harry Kim, somehow mess up the Prime Directive, and end up as an ensign again.
This kind of stuff will make your head spin an endless 360, plus if both harry kims did meet one another well... it might create some sort of Quantum Temporal Paradox event or something, I don't know.
"the Defiant became stuck behind a barrier on a planet in the Gamma Quadrant, where they met the inhabitants who told them they were the descendants of the crew of that crashed on the planet 200 years in the past. With foreknowledge of the crash, the crew surmised that if they escaped that fate, the timeline would collapse and everything on the planet cease to exist. The descendant of Jadzia Dax, Yedrin, surmised that it would be possible to save their colony, due to an energy discharge that had hit Major Kira, which had created a subspace doubling effect, and for an instant created corresponding quantum duplicates of every molecule in her body. By amplifying the doubling effect through modifications to the Defiant, they could make a quantum duplicate of the entire ship, and this second ship would then be the one that would crash on the planet preserving the original timeline. However, the other Defiant would be able to escape as well."
"Our history, our past, our present and our future is now forever changed. All we can do is preserve what is left and continue onwards. This is not a surrender nor defeat, we will continue the fight. This is our last hope, our last chance... for victory."
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Comments
Alpha-Harry Kim and Beta-Harry Kim are technically the original.
Alpha-Naomi Wildman and Beta-Naomi Wildman are technically the original.
Since there is information missing, you could technically reverse your argument. Which ship contained the original crew members? As a result of being split into two, did they both cease to be the original?
*shrugs*
Who knows?
Its a paradox.
This actually makes perfect sense...
Ensign Kim (He will always... ALWAYS be ensign Kim)... You failed to seal a hull-breach... Go clean up your mess...
Actually it's not my analysis. It's the consensus of the Trek community on memory-alpha and is reflected in the article about Harry Kim there.
My personal opinion on this is that it wouldn't make sense to kill off the whole original crew that early in the series and then have copies continuing the journey. It's also a nice plot twist to sacrifice the undamaged Voyager and save the damaged one. So even if it wasn't explicitly mentioned in the episode, I tend to agree with the Trek community on this.
It would have been a nicer plot twist if damage to the Voyager lasted beyond one episode. But yeah, I noticed that in the episode, too.
Real-world physics and some logical inconsistencies aside, there are still some logical conclusions that can be drawn out.
1) When Harry was blown out through the hull breach, it was from the out-of-phase Voyager. This is demonstrated because the Vidiians were able to attack the undamaged Voyager but couldn't detect the damaged one. Furthermore, the damaged Voyager was relatively undamaged from the effects of the point-blank explosion of two ships.
Reasonable to expect that Harry's body was out-of-phase at the time and may have remained out-of-phase. If that's true, his body would not have been damaged from Voyager's explosion.
However, being out-of-phase in deep space, it seems unlikely that the body would ever be recovered.
2) There wasn't a lot left when Voyager self-destructed. It took out the Vidiian ship, whose own warp core breach upon destruction would have added to the forces of detonation significantly. We're talking very, very small, very burned pieces. Maybe near-atomization.
If Harry's body didn't remain out-of-phase, I'm not sure that his body would have cleared the area of destruction. If not, he would have been cremated instantly. I'm not even going to try to do the math to figure out what the velocity was or how far away the body had to be to survive the explosion intact. It's plausible, though.
If he was ejected with enough force to carry him clear of the later explosion, or if the explosion added more force to increase his velocity, then his body would be moving fast enough to be carried far away from the location very quickly. That makes it even less likely that his body could be found that many years later, intact or otherwise.
3) The damaged Voyager couldn't return to normal space until its' 'quantum duplicate' was destroyed. But in the case of Harry's body, the living duplicate was never destroyed. Alive Harry passed through the interface to damaged Voyager and returned to normal space with it (somehow). Dead Harry was never caught in the explosion and could have remained out-of-phase.
The recovery and burial is a touching idea, but not very realistic even for Star Trek. I would admit, though, that if the body was out-of-phase and could be located somehow, that it might be more likely to be found intact than if it were caught in the explosion.
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I really, really like this idea.
I also favor having something like, say, a relative of Tolian Soran or Guinan turning up as a Liberated Borg.
Perhaps one of Soran's children, his wife, or Guinan's son. All were mentioned on the shows and the simplest explanation for any of them is that they were assimilated.
However with Liberated Borg turning up, well... Borg don't age.
Might be really cool if Soran's Liberated Borg relative discovers that there's a piece of Dr. Soran in the Nexus (according to producers, Guinan and Soran had echoes in the Nexus as a result of a transporter accident when the Enterprise-B beamed them over) and could set off a reason why the Nexus becomes a plot point again.
YES! I'm good to go taking on evil Harry Kim!
Now that you bring up the point of Ensign Kim's velocity upon exiting Voyager via hull breach... It seems unlikely that he was ejected at a high enough velocity to escape Voyagers local gravitational and electromagnetic field. Objects in space are still attracted to one another in the absence of another force acting on it. Could be that Ensign Kim was blown out only to be drawn back to Voyagers hull...
Afterall, Harry Kim isn't part of a fleet, just Vanilla Starfleet, so he doesn't have access to a Tier III shipyard and the Fleet Science Vessel Retrofit.
:P
"You shoot him, I shoot you, I leave both your bodies here and go out for a late night snack.
I'm thinking maybe pancakes." ~ John Casey
If memory serves, one of the first KDF missions with Kahless (The clone) has him mention he got the co-ordinates off Worf, and managed to track down his old sword.
I went directly to the source. I watched the episode.
Run by geth? Cool!
Anyway the answer is that the Illusive Man found his body, revived him with Project Lazarus, finally gave him a promotion from Ensign to Commander, and sent him to fight the Reapers.
Captured Mirror Science Vessel retrofit.
STO is very much canon! If they were to make a new "Next Gen" series it would need to take into account the events of STO.
Nope the use of Nano Tech has grown so much in 30 years I am sure they revive Ensign Kim to have a long lustrious career just like Thomas Riker!
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I almost brought this up as well but then I realized there's nothing to retrieve in his case.
This would be awesome and ironic.
Tuvok and the Emergency medical hologram are among the finest characters the Star Trek franchise ever produced. Though apart from those two I will generally agree with the statement.
bloodpact.net
"The greatest danger for most of us is not that our aim is too high and we miss it, but that it is too low and we reach it."
-Michelangelo
No, it isn't.
No, it wouldn't.
STO is canon
And i liked Voyager.
yes it is and yes they would
How could you say otherwise?
STO takes place after the events that are the 2009 retake on TOS movies. Any story that takes place in STU after 2410 would have to account for STO.
STO follows canon upto 2409 and is a continuation of that story. It is sactioned by the Star Trek Franchise to be canon. To suggest otherwise is Star Trek blasphamy!
STO is soft canon, IT's basically on level with novels, it has to accept prime universe canon from movies and shows, but it's material is not binding on other soft-canon works, and can be outright contradicted by future on-screen productions.
You are joking, right?
Watch VOY? I'd never want to inflict that kind of pain on myself. It'd be like hitting myself with a meat tenderizer.
BWAHAAHAHAHHAHAHAAHAHHAAHHAHAH!!!!
PLEASE????
AHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAH!!!
You guys are cracking me up!
But it wasnt out at this time.
So no its not canon as it wasnt seen on screen.
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This kind of stuff will make your head spin an endless 360, plus if both harry kims did meet one another well... it might create some sort of Quantum Temporal Paradox event or something, I don't know.
http://en.memory-alpha.org/wiki/Temporal_mechanics
"the Defiant became stuck behind a barrier on a planet in the Gamma Quadrant, where they met the inhabitants who told them they were the descendants of the crew of that crashed on the planet 200 years in the past. With foreknowledge of the crash, the crew surmised that if they escaped that fate, the timeline would collapse and everything on the planet cease to exist. The descendant of Jadzia Dax, Yedrin, surmised that it would be possible to save their colony, due to an energy discharge that had hit Major Kira, which had created a subspace doubling effect, and for an instant created corresponding quantum duplicates of every molecule in her body. By amplifying the doubling effect through modifications to the Defiant, they could make a quantum duplicate of the entire ship, and this second ship would then be the one that would crash on the planet preserving the original timeline. However, the other Defiant would be able to escape as well."
"Our history, our past, our present and our future is now forever changed. All we can do is preserve what is left and continue onwards. This is not a surrender nor defeat, we will continue the fight. This is our last hope, our last chance... for victory."
Vlasek D. Lasor - 4.19.3580
Star Trek Online: Foundry Storyline Series