The original Harry dying was the universe's way of saying "Look, we 'don't want your do-gooder, boring personality to persist." And, for once, I agree with the unverse.
Either that or Janeway sent him there knowing he would of gotten blown out into space to make her feel better about a bad day.
Why are we getting so carried away with this thread?
As many others (including Captain Geko) have said, Voyager is like "Trek Popcorn" in the sense that it has good production value so it "looks" good and almost every episode is a self-contained story so it doesn't really matter if you watch a season 5 episode then a season six episode and then a season 4 episode because the stories don't really matter in terms of the larger story arc other than the general idea that the crew is exploring strange new worlds and the alien of the week on their way home.
Do we really need to get into an argument over the "real" Harry Kim? Just enjoy your "Trek popcorn" and move on to another bag.
what you say regarding erratic viewing is mostly true though not always, there were a few follow on episodes that might be a bit confusing if you didn't see the first episode it the chain, even though the follow on wasn't always directly after the first one.
in particular I am thinking of the episode where voyager lands on a planet and there is a shape shifting liquid that copies the entire crew though not in a malevolent way.
there is a follow up episode some time later where what we think is voyager has crew members disappearing right left and centre but in the end it turn out to be the copies from the earlier episode and the voyager is also a copy and they have completely forgotten they are copies but realise they are disappearing because they have left their home planet.
don't know the episode numbers and I am sure there were a few more other episodes that had follow-ons in this way.
anyway back to the thread, therealfluffy your fantasy mission is to retrieve harry kims body from space so he can be returned to earth where he will have a proper star fleet funeral where his body is put in a pod and shot into space. eeer.
When I think about everything we've been through together,
maybe it's not the destination that matters, maybe it's the journey,
and if that journey takes a little longer,
so we can do something we all believe in,
I can't think of any place I'd rather be or any people I'd rather be with.
The original Harry dying was the universe's way of saying "Look, we 'don't want your do-gooder, boring personality to persist." And, for once, I agree with the unverse.
More likely Garret's character dying was the writers' way of saying "Look, we 'don't want your slacker, entitled, always-late self on set." At least from what I've read on the matter.
"Logic is a little tweeting bird chirping in a meadow. Logic is a wreath of pretty flowers which smell BAD." - Spock
So? I have to imagine that in space, barring a freak comet accident, his frozen corpse must be extremely well preserved. And likely it is floating silently along at a leisurely speed that would make it easy to catch up to in any modern starship. Just be sure not to overshoot and slam into it, shattering Harry into a million tiny crystals.
Was it frozen though? If they were in or near a star system, it probably was not.
Not true, it's a common misconception. In space you aren't frozen and you certain aren't barbequed either, all because of the lack of a medium / atmosphere. No atmosphere to conduct heat, or for bacteria to decompose a body.
At worst, the body of Harry would be pitted with micrometeoroid strikes and cell damage from cosmic radiation.
Not true, it's a common misconception. In space you aren't frozen and you certain aren't barbequed either, all because of the lack of a medium / atmosphere. No atmosphere to conduct heat, or for bacteria to decompose a body.
At worst, the body of Harry would be pitted with micrometeoroid strikes and cell damage from cosmic radiation.
How about a Zombie Kim Boff from one of the new DR missions then? I'm sure that his "Superior Smell" could easily overcome most organic species with sensitive nasal senses!
At the very least we should get a trophy really, a stuffed Harry Kim trophy!
Captain Harry Kim will meet Kobali Harry Kim, somehow mess up the Prime Directive, and end up as an ensign again.
"Bloody explorers, ponce off to Mumbo Jumbo land, come home with a tropical disease, a suntan and a bag of brown lumpy things, and Bob's your uncle, everyone's got a picture of them in the lavatory."
-Edmund Blackadder-
I never felt comfortable knowing that the original Harry Kim was left dead, frozen and floating in space in the Delta Quadrant. He was the one person who most eagerly wanted to get back to Earth but he never got to see his homeworld again. Now that X2 will give us an Iconian gateway to the Delta Quadrant, how about we go back there in a mission and retrieve his body and bring it back to Earth for a proper funeral?
Or, he could have been rescued by an alien race, and over the years, he's turned Thomas Riker and is now evil. Do you want to deal with a guy like that?
How about a Zombie Kim Boff from one of the new DR missions then? I'm sure that his "Superior Smell" could easily overcome most organic species with sensitive nasal senses!
He'd be unlikely to smell, since the unpleasant smell ascribed to dead bodies comes from the process of rot which is carried about by bacteria consuming the body. Considering that bacterial consumption of his flesh is unlikely in the vacuum of space, I don't think he'll stink too much. He'd be more like a mummy than a zombie, really.
Not true, it's a common misconception. In space you aren't frozen and you certain aren't barbequed either, all because of the lack of a medium / atmosphere. No atmosphere to conduct heat, or for bacteria to decompose a body.
At worst, the body of Harry would be pitted with micrometeoroid strikes and cell damage from cosmic radiation.
Incorrect. I'll point you to the heavily insulated space suits we use.
There's no convection, certainly, but there is still radiative heat transfer. You will freeze -eventually- if you're in shadow or far enough away from a star, it's just not going to be terribly fast. If you're in direct sunlight, then you'll start to heat up as you receive the heat radiated by the sun. That's why space suits need to be able to keep an astronaut warm and cool in temperatures ranging from around -150 °C to 120 °C. It's also why the side of a planet facing the sun is warmer than the areas in shadow (the difference is most noticeable on planets without an atmosphere to distribute the heat).
imagine a piece of jerky that was left in a microwave oven for 30 years.
you really want to try and recover that?
That would be like looking for a Twinkie... wait... IT would probably last.
:cool:
STO Member since February 2009. I Was A Trekkie Before It Was Cool ... Sept. 8th, 1966 ... Not To Mention Before Most Folks Around Here Were Born! Forever a STO Veteran-Minion
I'm surprised people are arguing against on the basis that the body would look nasty. It's a corpse, they tend to only look attractive to necrophiliacs. It wouldn't be put on display and introduced to his your mother. The idea is you'd retrieve it to put it to rest.
But what about every other Voyager crewmen who died and didn't have a duplicate to get home? Perhaps Starfleet has a special funereal service for times like this that goes out to retrieve corpses. I mean, someone's got to do it.
Incorrect. I'll point you to the heavily insulated space suits we use.
There's no convection, certainly, but there is still radiative heat transfer. You will freeze -eventually- if you're in shadow or far enough away from a star, it's just not going to be terribly fast. If you're in direct sunlight, then you'll start to heat up as you receive the heat radiated by the sun. That's why space suits need to be able to keep an astronaut warm and cool in temperatures ranging from around -150 °C to 120 °C. It's also why the side of a planet facing the sun is warmer than the areas in shadow (the difference is most noticeable on planets without an atmosphere to distribute the heat).
First off, we are talking about Harry Kim who is NOT wearing a space suit vs someone IN a space suit.
Second, Freezing requires there be moisture in the air to condense and turn into ice. When you are exposed to a vacuum, water and blood will immediately vaporize. Instead of your tongue being frozen, it's going to be boiled due to the vaporization of the molecules.
Third, temperature change is immediate in space due to the lack of medium. Where heat is mainly coming from the sun itself.
Fourth, temperatures you quoted are only true in Earth Orbit, not in Deep Space.
Fifth, planets don't always get their heat from the sun. You got stellar bodies that have high pressures that generate heat (like Gas Giants), and you got bodies that are under tidal pressure that generate heat as well.
Actually... If memory serves, when exposed to space:
The body is badly irradiated/burned, from the radiation from space that the atmospheres / spacesuits would usually take care of
He would be burned if he was near a star, not in deep space. But the suit eventually would get worn down by stellar radiation. Of course that would take a long time to do.
And everyone forgot about the aliens that find the dead, reanimate the dead, alter them to their bio structure and retrain their memory? Like they did with that female crew member? Amusing that he wasn't too far gone. And that they found him in time, if ever.
First off, we are talking about Harry Kim who is NOT wearing a space suit vs someone IN a space suit.
I pointed out the spacesuit as evidence that heat does indeed transfer in space. Heavily insulating a spacesuit wouldn't be required if heat couldn't be transferred.
Second, Freezing requires there be moisture in the air to condense and turn into ice. When you are exposed to a vacuum, water and blood will immediately vaporize. Instead of your tongue being frozen, it's going to be boiled due to the vaporization of the molecules.
No, freezing does not require moisture in the air to condense and turn into ice. It requires the average kinetic energy of the molecules to be low enough that they can form stable intermolecular bonds. Neither an atmosphere nor water is necessary. Remember that rocks are just as frozen as ice is, they just freeze at much higher temperatures.
The dissolved air in the blood will come out of solution, and the molecules with higher kinetic energy will also evaporate, but as the reason for that evaporation isn't due to energy input it will leave behind the lower energy molecules that will form the bonds necessary to form a solid.
Third, temperature change is immediate in space due to the lack of medium. Where heat is mainly coming from the sun itself.
The temperature change in space isn't immediate because of a lack of a medium; temperature change is just as immediate in a medium as well. You step out of an air conditioned house into the sweltering heat, energy will immediately begin transferring to your cold body. You're temperature will change faster because conduction and convection can also occur, but it's no more or less 'immediate.'
If you mean to imply that the temperature will reach its maximum/minimum 'immediately' then that's just patently wrong. While stepping into sunlight from behind a rock on the moon, you'd immediately begin to heat up, but you won't instantly reach the maximum temperature; it will take time to reach the equilibrium point where the energy you're radiating is equal to the energy being absorbed. When you step back into the shade, then the amount of energy you're radiating will be greater than the energy you're receiving, and you'll slowly cool down to the new equilibrium point. Without being able to use evaporation, it'll take longer to cool down than when you're on Earth.
Without a spacesuit and away from sunlight, you'll cool down quickly initially because of the evaporation, but it will still take time.
Fourth, temperatures you quoted are only true in Earth Orbit, not in Deep Space.
Yes, that's because astronauts tend to work around Earth's orbit. In deep space, it only gets colder. You're not going to freeze any less out there. But that's besides the point, because I mentioned it to point out that yes indeed, heat is transferred in space (this goes for the next one too).
Fifth, planets don't always get their heat from the sun. You got stellar bodies that have high pressures that generate heat (like Gas Giants), and you got bodies that are under tidal pressure that generate heat as well.
They are no exception, areas in sunlight are warmer than areas in shadow. The sunlit side of Io for example, can be around -143°C, while the shadow side is about -183°C.
Comments
Either that or Janeway sent him there knowing he would of gotten blown out into space to make her feel better about a bad day.
what you say regarding erratic viewing is mostly true though not always, there were a few follow on episodes that might be a bit confusing if you didn't see the first episode it the chain, even though the follow on wasn't always directly after the first one.
in particular I am thinking of the episode where voyager lands on a planet and there is a shape shifting liquid that copies the entire crew though not in a malevolent way.
there is a follow up episode some time later where what we think is voyager has crew members disappearing right left and centre but in the end it turn out to be the copies from the earlier episode and the voyager is also a copy and they have completely forgotten they are copies but realise they are disappearing because they have left their home planet.
don't know the episode numbers and I am sure there were a few more other episodes that had follow-ons in this way.
anyway back to the thread, therealfluffy your fantasy mission is to retrieve harry kims body from space so he can be returned to earth where he will have a proper star fleet funeral where his body is put in a pod and shot into space. eeer.
When I think about everything we've been through together,
maybe it's not the destination that matters, maybe it's the journey,
and if that journey takes a little longer,
so we can do something we all believe in,
I can't think of any place I'd rather be or any people I'd rather be with.
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http://en.memory-alpha.org/wiki/Deadlock_(episode)
Fixed that for ya.
Even 7 of 9 was written as a "baby" having to grow up and kim was no exception.
If you felt at home and laughed with the characters on that show you have my pity !
So? I have to imagine that in space, barring a freak comet accident, his frozen corpse must be extremely well preserved. And likely it is floating silently along at a leisurely speed that would make it easy to catch up to in any modern starship. Just be sure not to overshoot and slam into it, shattering Harry into a million tiny crystals.
I mean that goes without saying.
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Not true, it's a common misconception. In space you aren't frozen and you certain aren't barbequed either, all because of the lack of a medium / atmosphere. No atmosphere to conduct heat, or for bacteria to decompose a body.
At worst, the body of Harry would be pitted with micrometeoroid strikes and cell damage from cosmic radiation.
How about a Zombie Kim Boff from one of the new DR missions then? I'm sure that his "Superior Smell" could easily overcome most organic species with sensitive nasal senses!
At the very least we should get a trophy really, a stuffed Harry Kim trophy!
Sure!
Just... don't eat it/him.
-Edmund Blackadder-
Helpful Tools: Dictionary.com - Logical fallacies - Random generator - Word generator - Color tool - Extra Credits - List of common English language errors - New T6 Big booty tutorial
Or, he could have been rescued by an alien race, and over the years, he's turned Thomas Riker and is now evil. Do you want to deal with a guy like that?
He'd be unlikely to smell, since the unpleasant smell ascribed to dead bodies comes from the process of rot which is carried about by bacteria consuming the body. Considering that bacterial consumption of his flesh is unlikely in the vacuum of space, I don't think he'll stink too much. He'd be more like a mummy than a zombie, really.
Incorrect. I'll point you to the heavily insulated space suits we use.
There's no convection, certainly, but there is still radiative heat transfer. You will freeze -eventually- if you're in shadow or far enough away from a star, it's just not going to be terribly fast. If you're in direct sunlight, then you'll start to heat up as you receive the heat radiated by the sun. That's why space suits need to be able to keep an astronaut warm and cool in temperatures ranging from around -150 °C to 120 °C. It's also why the side of a planet facing the sun is warmer than the areas in shadow (the difference is most noticeable on planets without an atmosphere to distribute the heat).
That would be like looking for a Twinkie... wait... IT would probably last.
:cool:
I Was A Trekkie Before It Was Cool ... Sept. 8th, 1966 ... Not To Mention Before Most Folks Around Here Were Born!
Forever a STO Veteran-Minion
Wrong way around. The real Harry Kim got back, the rest of voyager was fake.
I really don't think he'd be that pretty...
There is no separate copy and real guy..... they were both copies and both were real.
But what about every other Voyager crewmen who died and didn't have a duplicate to get home? Perhaps Starfleet has a special funereal service for times like this that goes out to retrieve corpses. I mean, someone's got to do it.
First off, we are talking about Harry Kim who is NOT wearing a space suit vs someone IN a space suit.
Second, Freezing requires there be moisture in the air to condense and turn into ice. When you are exposed to a vacuum, water and blood will immediately vaporize. Instead of your tongue being frozen, it's going to be boiled due to the vaporization of the molecules.
Third, temperature change is immediate in space due to the lack of medium. Where heat is mainly coming from the sun itself.
Fourth, temperatures you quoted are only true in Earth Orbit, not in Deep Space.
Fifth, planets don't always get their heat from the sun. You got stellar bodies that have high pressures that generate heat (like Gas Giants), and you got bodies that are under tidal pressure that generate heat as well.
He would be burned if he was near a star, not in deep space. But the suit eventually would get worn down by stellar radiation. Of course that would take a long time to do.
No... It's just unreasonable to assume that they would have used Corpse-kim for that, him being boiled and bloated and all that.
*cough* first page third post *cough*
I pointed out the spacesuit as evidence that heat does indeed transfer in space. Heavily insulating a spacesuit wouldn't be required if heat couldn't be transferred.
No, freezing does not require moisture in the air to condense and turn into ice. It requires the average kinetic energy of the molecules to be low enough that they can form stable intermolecular bonds. Neither an atmosphere nor water is necessary. Remember that rocks are just as frozen as ice is, they just freeze at much higher temperatures.
The dissolved air in the blood will come out of solution, and the molecules with higher kinetic energy will also evaporate, but as the reason for that evaporation isn't due to energy input it will leave behind the lower energy molecules that will form the bonds necessary to form a solid.
A visual demonstration of this can be seen in a variety of Youtube videos, such as these ones
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rM04U5BO3Ug
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pOYgdQp4euc
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8oCjj8iDB9I
The majority of the water will freeze incidentally (~80-90%), so your tongue will indeed freeze due to the vapourisation of the water.
The temperature change in space isn't immediate because of a lack of a medium; temperature change is just as immediate in a medium as well. You step out of an air conditioned house into the sweltering heat, energy will immediately begin transferring to your cold body. You're temperature will change faster because conduction and convection can also occur, but it's no more or less 'immediate.'
If you mean to imply that the temperature will reach its maximum/minimum 'immediately' then that's just patently wrong. While stepping into sunlight from behind a rock on the moon, you'd immediately begin to heat up, but you won't instantly reach the maximum temperature; it will take time to reach the equilibrium point where the energy you're radiating is equal to the energy being absorbed. When you step back into the shade, then the amount of energy you're radiating will be greater than the energy you're receiving, and you'll slowly cool down to the new equilibrium point. Without being able to use evaporation, it'll take longer to cool down than when you're on Earth.
Without a spacesuit and away from sunlight, you'll cool down quickly initially because of the evaporation, but it will still take time.
Yes, that's because astronauts tend to work around Earth's orbit. In deep space, it only gets colder. You're not going to freeze any less out there. But that's besides the point, because I mentioned it to point out that yes indeed, heat is transferred in space (this goes for the next one too).
They are no exception, areas in sunlight are warmer than areas in shadow. The sunlit side of Io for example, can be around -143°C, while the shadow side is about -183°C.