And that has what to do with a fictional space military from 244 years in the future.
Should we also expect the British Royal Navy of 1770 to act like the US Navy of 2014?
So they had hats and salutes in TOS? And Navy captains usual led the teams that left the ship?
aka people who actually watched TOS and weren't going off of rose colored memories.
What relations? Nothing really changed since the Cage when relations were stay off of Talos IV for your own good. Remember Pike tried to open diplomatic relations in The Cage and got shot down as the Talosions didn't want humans to end up like them.
Again, Pike tried to open diplomatic relations in The Cage and got shot down as the Talosions didn't want humans to end up like them. So nothing actually changed.
He says while forgetting that the US government (assuming its their ship being diverted) probably wouldn't give a TRIBBLE about why they diverted to the UK or that they needed it or else the War of 1812 wouldn't have been partially caused by the British conscripting British US immigrants to fight the French.
No they just tell high ranking diplomat Sarek to TRIBBLE off when all he wants is someone to grab his son's body from Genesis (a far less request then divert a ship from an ongoing mission to drop Spock off for his wedding) and send it back to Vulcan while dismissing it as Vulcan mysticism.
Plus considering that Kirk could use in the middle of a mission to get his ship made a priority at a repair base despite other ships needing repairs due to being on patrol something other than its really important but its to secretive to talk about is probably needed to get them to divert a ship already on a mission.
And then laugh when you realize that when ever a Starfleet Admiral tried to pull that one the crew was seen as heroic for telling said admiral to stuff it, which makes it ironic as heck.
Plus for all we know a dying captain granting a cadet a field commission of captain is totally legal in Starfleet. So Nog would need the chief medical officer's help before relieving him, and I don't think they would help.
But riddle me this. Would spock follow Kirk on a suicide mission like the one USS Valkryie attempted when there was little to no gain besides glory?
Most crews would of called the Captain ludicrous and relieved him of command. Which is what Nog should of done.
Also comparing modern day relations to the war of 1812, bad analysis. Completely different time well before the UN which is if you think about it what the Federation is based off of.
But unlike the UN, they actually have a military/exploration arm to back it up.
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One player's headcanon in trying to make an MMO into a single player game is at best a misguided endeavour.
Except someone has to be the guy who destroyed the doomsday machine, somebody rescued Miral Paris, etc. Its not every single member of starfleet. It isn't 'headcanon', its the plot.
Except someone has to be the guy who destroyed the doomsday machine, somebody rescued Miral Paris, etc. Its not every single member of starfleet. It isn't 'headcanon', its the plot.
To me, a hero did this, I simply just relived his missions in a holodeck with my bridge crew. :cool:
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But riddle me this. Would spock follow Kirk on a suicide mission like the one USS Valkryie attempted when there was little to no gain besides glory?
Except 1) Spock was the XO and Nog didn't have any position on the ship until Waters gave him one, 2) Spock admitted he didn't really have much choice but to follow Commodore Decker's order which were basically to chase after an indestructible machine that can easily defeat them until an opportunity to relieve him showed up, by the time Nog might have that the ship was already wrecked.
Most crews would of called the Captain ludicrous and relieved him of command. Which is what Nog should of done.
So an ensign that shows up on the ship can relieve the captain (again no one except fans who can't say for certain how Starfleet works disputed the commision) based on said ensign's judgement. Can you say mutiny?
Also comparing modern day relations to the war of 1812, bad analysis. Completely different time well before the UN which is if you think about it what the Federation is based off of.
But unlike the UN, they actually have a military/exploration arm to back it up.
I still don't think the US would give a TRIBBLE if the UN said another nation diverting a US Navy destroyer (the modern equivalent of the Enterprise it seems) was okay and they would still be pissed at the captain for basically going AWOL. And no I doubt they would like it, if it was a US State doing it either.
Also, my understanding was that Dahar master wasn't really a rank, it was a title of respect given to great Klingon warriors which basically entitled them to do whatever they fancied for the rest of their life.
So an ensign that shows up on the ship can relieve the captain (again no one except fans who can't say for certain how Starfleet works disputed the commision) based on said ensign's judgement. Can you say mutiny?
.
In the situation with the Valkyrie yes Nog could and SHOULD of taken command. It's called the chain of command and the rank structure. Guess what, even with a field command of a ship, he is not of senior rank to a commissioned officer.
Hell what that "captain" Should of done is brought the Valiant back to Star Fleet and reported what happened. Instead it went rogue, disregarded a senior officer regardless of his billet and he's a CADET. He holds a midshipman's warrent. Nog is a COMMISSIONED OFFICER.
Let that sink in. In that situation Nog should as senior officer and the only commissioned officer among cadets and brought that ship back to federation territory.
Sorry it's one of those situations where you have a bunch of academy kids in charge of a warship and suddenly granted the most junior officer on the rank structure appears, he on the spot becomes captain. Or should have.
Now it's different when it's two captains. Had the valiant CO been a captain and Nog been a captain, well even if Nog was senior, Waters would of been in command of the ship, hell even if Waters had been a LTcmdr, it goes into a grey area since Waters is the legal CO.
But as a midshipman, that's a completely different story. He should of INSTANTLY deferred to a commissioned officer.
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Also, my understanding was that Dahar master wasn't really a rank, it was a title of respect given to great Klingon warriors which basically entitled them to do whatever they fancied for the rest of their life.
Now I'm wondering if this is the last ever level cap increase since that mean Klingons will end up at basically the do whatever the f@#k you want rank.
What relations? Nothing really changed since the Cage when relations were stay off of Talos IV for your own good. Remember Pike tried to open diplomatic relations in The Cage and got shot down as the Talosions didn't want humans to end up like them.
Fair enough, it's still an improvement since they didn't try to enslave the crew this time.
Honestly General Order 7 itself makes no sense. While the Talosians were initially hostile, they had already declared that humans weren't viable. Especially considering what we know about how Starfleet does business it would make more sense that Starfleet would send a terraforming team to assist the Talosians in reconstructing their planet.
He says while forgetting that the US government (assuming its their ship being diverted) probably wouldn't give a TRIBBLE about why they diverted to the UK or that they needed it or else the War of 1812 wouldn't have been partially caused by the British conscripting British US immigrants to fight the French.
Which you say while ignoring that I used a United Nations based analogy which was as close as one can get with modern politics. No one mentioned anything about War of 1812, where your analogy is worthless. There's no parallel to diverting to an enemy nation vs diverting for a close ally.
The better analogy is indeed the second one I offered. It's not just a high ranking member of the government this is a woman involved in the founding of the Federation, which would be like telling Ben Franklin or John Hancock to go TRIBBLE off. And before you blow that off, keep in mind that someone like George Washington if he were to get up out of the grave is still the highest ranking member of the US Military. T'Pau has the virtue of actually just living that long.
No they just tell high ranking diplomat Sarek to TRIBBLE off when all he wants is someone to grab his son's body from Genesis (a far less request then divert a ship from an ongoing mission to drop Spock off for his wedding) and send it back to Vulcan while dismissing it as Vulcan mysticism.
But they didn't tell Sarek that. They told Kirk that. Sarek expected (with a degree of logic) that a full Admiral like Kirk would be able to run and pick up Spock and be done with it. Admiral Morrow was being unusually obstructive, he could've easily said, we'll contact Grissom and have them pick up the body if they find it. Problem solved.
Plus considering that Kirk could use in the middle of a mission to get his ship made a priority at a repair base despite other ships needing repairs due to being on patrol something other than its really important but its to secretive to talk about is probably needed to get them to divert a ship already on a mission.
It always bothered me that they couldn't just say that Spock had a life threatening illness that required immediate treatment on Vulcan and ride the Doctor Patient confidentiality from that. Starfleet issuing orders that would cause the death of an officer don't seem to be particularly valid, especially not for a diplomatic function.
And then laugh when you realize that when ever a Starfleet Admiral tried to pull that one the crew was seen as heroic for telling said admiral to stuff it, which makes it ironic as heck.
Plus for all we know a dying captain granting a cadet a field commission of captain is totally legal in Starfleet. So Nog would need the chief medical officer's help before relieving him, and I don't think they would help.
That is funny.
But those crews had loyalty to their captain, like Red Squad had to Watters, so they by the same note wouldn't have given Nog the same. In other words in that scenario, Nog would be the insane Admiral from their perspective. And let's be clear I KNOW that Red Squad wouldn't have helped. They would've thrown him in the brig too. That idea is also why it was Nog and not Kira who was on the mission as originally planned, as no one believed that Kira wouldn't have just crushed the snot nosed punks.
The weirdest thing was him promoting Nog to Lieutenant Commander, what the hell?
There's a degree of bailment to the proceedings. He was charged with command of the vessel and could only be relieved by Starfleet command in one theory. It's a positional authority type thing.
This is what the wik has to say about breveting in the US.
The Articles of War adopted by the United States Army in 1776 and slightly revised in 1806 established the use and significance of brevet ranks or awards in the U.S. Army. When first used, a brevet commission in the U.S. Army entitled the officer to be identified by a higher rank but the award had limited effect on the right to higher command or pay. A brevet rank had no effect within the officer's current unit, but when assigned duty at the brevet rank by the U.S. President such an officer would command with the brevet rank and be paid at the higher rank. This higher command and pay would last only for the duration of that assignment. The brevet promotion would not affect the officer's seniority and actual permanent rank in the army.[5] Beginning on April 16, 1818, brevet commissions also required confirmation by the United States Senate, just as all other varieties of officer commissions did
Since clearly the President of the Federation wouldn't be available it's reasonable to think that a Captain could do it, look at Picard making Wesley a full ensign before he even went to the academy.
Also, my understanding was that Dahar master wasn't really a rank, it was a title of respect given to great Klingon warriors which basically entitled them to do whatever they fancied for the rest of their life.
Which is perfect for a game. It's like a Klingon SPECTRE.
"Rise like Lions after slumber, In unvanquishable number, Shake your chains to earth like dew, Which in sleep had fallen on you-Ye are many they are few"
Someone mentioned above that Will Rider turned down his own command more than once, which seems like the flip side of the problem we've been discussing.
I thought it was an interesting aspect of his character that Riker was by nature ambitious, but willingly deferred the chance to have his own command, because he realized there was much he could learn from Picard. However, IIRC, there was one episode in which he wrestles with an offer of a command, and it's specifically mentioned that Starfleet had a shortage of experienced officers following the catastrophe of the Battle of Wolf 359. In that circumstance, it seemed outright irresponsible of Riker to forego the promotion.
Yeah, I'm not a Klink or anything, but what's with the Dahar Master thing? 'Dahar Master' is an honorary rank, given to revered warriors. It's not a standard rank you get promoted to.
And that has what to do with a fictional space military from 244 years in the future.
Should we also expect the British Royal Navy of 1770 to act like the US Navy of 2014?
So they had hats and salutes in TOS? And Navy captains usual led the teams that left the ship?
What does it have to do with it? because the roots of this fictional space military traces back to our actual military. So it's reasonable for me to assume that they share a lot of the similar traditions.
And you mention hats and salutes. You know where the original salute comes from right? according to the many PSA commercials i watched as a kid on AFN (armed forces network) the original salute goes back to the age when armored knights rode on horseback. Back then it was a gesture that served two purposes. One, the lifting of the visor was meant to show the approaching knight who you were. And two since the sword was commonly swung with the right hand using that hand to open your visor also meant that you were unarmed and not a threat. So it started out as a gesture, got turned into a formality, and who knows maybe in a couple of years or hundred years from now it got phased out (not talking about in trek i mean if they actually phased it out irl). And hats? hats are part of a uniform and they actually serve a purpose. But there are areas where hats are not authorized such as an active flightline where it can blow away and get sucked into a jet turbine. Flightlines, or at least most flightlines in the Air Force are also labeled as no hat no salute areas. And as you may have seen in most hollywood movies like Forrest Gump, combat zones are also no salute areas.
Now why am i telling you all this useless knowledge? because it shows that when it is impractical to wear a hat or to salute the military puts out rules and regulations telling you not to wear hats and not to salute. I dont know what the regulations state about the wear of hats on navy ships. I believe on navy ships its allowed, possibly because ships have a lot of bulkheads and low doors so wearing a hat provides a tiny bit of cushioning. I know thats one of the reasons maintenance workers on aircraft wear their hats despite flightlines being a no hat area. But anytime you are indoors you remove your hat, when you go outdoors you put your hat back on. You'll see military guys doing it almost like clockwork. The instant my foot crossed the doorway bam hat was off, as soon as my foot crossed the doorway to step outside bam hat was back on. Also i wonder...what reason would a Starfleet officer have for wearing a hat on a starship? so that they can keep the sun out of their eyes?
aka people who actually watched TOS and weren't going off of rose colored memories.
Actually i didnt want to say it cause i didnt want to offend anyone that liked JJ Trek. But did you notice how the JJ Trek movies have Zoe Saldana front and center? In one of the DVD covers its Kirk, Uhura and Spock on the cover. And of course there is the locker room scene with Carol "look at where all my clothes went" Marcus? Notice the amount of explosions and action sequences in the JJ Trek movies? yah...thats the audience i was talking about. You dont think that they are trying to appeal to peoples testicles or their love for michael bay-like explosions?
And that has what to do with a fictional space military from 244 years in the future.
Should we also expect the British Royal Navy of 1770 to act like the US Navy of 2014?
So they had hats and salutes in TOS? And Navy captains usual led the teams that left the ship?
You know what? now that i think of it they *did* wear hats in Star Trek. Generations, the movie during Worfs promotion ceremony. They were all on the holodeck on a recreation of the mast ship USS Enterprise and they wore the uniform of that time period, including the hat.
So again...it is a made up future military yes. But one that is modeled on the US Navy, and one that has similar customs, courtesies and traditions (and holodeck apparel) of this time period and recent time periods. Other then that i'm not going to scour every episode and movie looking for little things like salutes and headgear. It's kinda too late to ask Gene Roddenberry why he never had Starfleet officers giving each other a formal salute. Or why he left that out yet decided that a junior officer would snap to attention when addressed or near a superior officer (Harry Kim first meeting Janeway) only to stop standing at attention when given the command to stand at ease (Janeway telling Kim to not break anything).
EDIT: now JJ Trek may be canon and i wont argue that. However i pretty much view his movie the same way i view video games that have a tactical theme. You know...the kind of games that has you running around shooting people as a Private and then after playing long enough you are still running around as a General using the same weapons and gear doing the same work. Obviously a lot of the things we do in STO are the same way, but i only tolerate it so that i can fly around in my cool spaceships and pretend that i'm in Starfleet.
Yeah, I'm not a Klink or anything, but what's with the Dahar Master thing? 'Dahar Master' is an honorary rank, given to revered warriors. It's not a standard rank you get promoted to.
I think someone that battled alongside Khaless against the Fekiri or what they are called probably deserves a honorary rank. When you finally get to level 60, that happens to e acknowledged.
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No, they don't. The fact that the costume department was staffed with incompetents who couldn't keep the number of collar pips straight* doesn't affect their rank as specified in the opening credits. Unless they were stated to have been promoted or demoted in the show script, their rank is static.
Yes they do, just because they aren't promoted or demoted onscreen there's no reason to suspect they weren't moved about, it was long term changes not episodic.
Commodore and Rear Admiral are the same rank. Rear Admiral exists in the 24th and 25th century, we have never seen a commodore in that time period. My conclusion is that commodore was retired along with Fleet Captain. Otherwise it would be a superfluous rank.
Does fleet captain exist as a rank in ST? Or is it just a position? There are a number of TNG admirals addressed as 'Fleet' Admirals despite being Rear or Vice admirals, Fleet Captain could just be a position.
Also, my understanding was that Dahar master wasn't really a rank, it was a title of respect given to great Klingon warriors which basically entitled them to do whatever they fancied for the rest of their life.
Now why am i telling you all this useless knowledge? because it shows that when it is impractical to wear a hat or to salute the military puts out rules and regulations telling you not to wear hats and not to salute. I dont know what the regulations state about the wear of hats on navy ships. I believe on navy ships its allowed, possibly because ships have a lot of bulkheads and low doors so wearing a hat provides a tiny bit of cushioning. I know thats one of the reasons maintenance workers on aircraft wear their hats despite flightlines being a no hat area. But anytime you are indoors you remove your hat, when you go outdoors you put your hat back on. You'll see military guys doing it almost like clockwork. The instant my foot crossed the doorway bam hat was off, as soon as my foot crossed the doorway to step outside bam hat was back on. Also i wonder...what reason would a Starfleet officer have for wearing a hat on a starship? so that they can keep the sun out of their eyes?
?
I do know that on Royal Navy vessels you sit to salute, you don't even stand for the Queen on-board.
Actually i didnt want to say it cause i didnt want to offend anyone that liked JJ Trek. But did you notice how the JJ Trek movies have Zoe Saldana front and center? In one of the DVD covers its Kirk, Uhura and Spock on the cover. And of course there is the locker room scene with Carol "look at where all my clothes went" Marcus? Notice the amount of explosions and action sequences in the JJ Trek movies? yah...thats the audience i was talking about. You dont think that they are trying to appeal to peoples testicles or their love for michael bay-like explosions
Like TOS with, 'look at where all my clothes went' Kirk or the miniskirts? If the effects and budget had been around TOS would have had explosions galore as well.
You know what? now that i think of it they *did* wear hats in Star Trek. Generations, the movie during Worfs promotion ceremony. They were all on the holodeck on a recreation of the mast ship USS Enterprise and they wore the uniform of that time period, including the hat.
Other then that i'm not going to scour every episode and movie looking for little things like salutes and headgear.
That was the HMS Enterprise, and the uniforms were Royal Navy, i.e. England.
Also you don't need to scour any episodes, there were two examples of hats, ENTs baseball caps and a hat on Pikes shelf in The Cage (and the JJ Hats) , there was NO saluting at all outside the Terren Empire from Humans in ST. It's not a part of SF at all.
Another difference is the lack of enlisted crew. Starfleet is mainly crewed by officers with only a few petty officers or crewman, again I'm not sure about the US Navy, but that seems like a large difference.
Norway and Yeager dammit... I still want my Typhoon and Jupiter though. JJ Trek The Kelvin Timeline is just Trek and it's fully canon... get over it. But I still prefer TAR.
#TASforSTO
'...I can tell you that we're not in the military and that we intend no harm to the whales.' Kirk: The Voyage Home
'Starfleet is not a military organisation. Its purpose is exploration.' Picard: Peak Performance
'This is clearly a military operation. Is that what we are now? Because I thought we were explorers!' Scotty: Into Darkness
'...The Federation. Starfleet. We're not a military agency.' Scotty: Beyond
'I'm not a soldier anymore. I'm an engineer.' Miles O'Brien: Empok Nor
'...Starfleet could use you... It's a peacekeeping and humanitarian armada...' Admiral Pike: Star Trek
Yes they do, just because they aren't promoted or demoted onscreen there's no reason to suspect they weren't moved about, it was long term changes not episodic.
Does fleet captain exist as a rank in ST? Or is it just a position? There are a number of TNG admirals addressed as 'Fleet' Admirals despite being Rear or Vice admirals, Fleet Captain could just be a position.
It's not a rank.
I do know that on Royal Navy vessels you sit to salute, you don't even stand for the Queen on-board.
Like TOS with, 'look at where all my clothes went' Kirk or the miniskirts? If the effects and budget had been around TOS would have had explosions galore as well.
That was the HMS Enterprise, and the uniforms were Royal Navy, i.e. England.
Also you don't need to scour any episodes, there were two examples of hats, ENTs baseball caps and a hat on Pikes shelf in The Cage (and the JJ Hats) , there was NO saluting at all outside the Terren Empire from Humans in ST. It's not a part of SF at all.
Another difference is the lack of enlisted crew. Starfleet is mainly crewed by officers with only a few petty officers or crewman, again I'm not sure about the US Navy, but that seems like a large difference.
This is the silliest thing I've read on this thread. Ever watched Star Trek VI, or hell TNG. You really think the Ent D was comprised of mostly officers with a crew of just over 1000? You're dreaming if you think most Star Fleet ships are crewed by mostly officers with few petty officers.
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This is the silliest thing I've read on this thread. Ever watched Star Trek VI, or hell TNG. You really think the Ent D was comprised of mostly officers with a crew of just over 1000? You're dreaming if you think most Star Fleet ships are crewed by mostly officers with few petty officers.
We have heard almost nothing about non-officers in Star Trek.
I mean, even Wesley started as Ensign, and Ensign is definitely not the lowest rank in any contemporary Navy or Military Force. Shouldn't he have gone through at least a few enlisted ranks before being made Ensign?
Every redshirt seems to have been an Ensign at least. You would expect that at least for away teams, they'd use some enlisted people to do the "grunt work". If you don't let your enlisted take care of that, what exactly do you use them for?
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We have heard almost nothing about non-officers in Star Trek.
I mean, even Wesley started as Ensign, and Ensign is definitely not the lowest rank in any contemporary Navy or Military Force. Shouldn't he have gone through at least a few enlisted ranks before being made Ensign?
Every redshirt seems to have been an Ensign at least. You would expect that at least for away teams, they'd use some enlisted people to do the "grunt work". If you don't let your enlisted take care of that, what exactly do you use them for?
Again watch star trek 6. You'll see PLENTY of enlisted. Or hell Star Trek 2, the crewman scotty talks about, he was enlisted.
Here I'll run a list for you. Naomi Wildman's Mother. Crewman
There was a group of screwups that Janeway took out in the Delta flier. ALL CREWMAN.
Crewman DAX on the Ent A when the found the gravity boots. That entire area was a crewman berthing, held probably about 40 people. Think officers sleep like that? NOPE.
Most of the redshirts kirk sent to kill, usually CREWMAN. Yes there was a few ensigns but some of them were crewman.
I mean the Orignal Enterprise had a crew of 400. You honestly think most of them were officers? You really think the academy can churn out people like that?
O'Brien. He didn't start out a chief. He had to be enlisted at some point. Only reason you don't see more of them, is because very show focuses on the senior staff and bridge crew.
Hell most of the people working with LaForge in Engineering CREWMEN or petty officers.
Sorry you are not going to convince me on a crew of over 400 most of them are officers. You're out of your mind.
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Another difference is the lack of enlisted crew. Starfleet is mainly crewed by officers with only a few petty officers or crewman, again I'm not sure about the US Navy, but that seems like a large difference.
We have heard almost nothing about non-officers in Star Trek.
I mean, even Wesley started as Ensign, and Ensign is definitely not the lowest rank in any contemporary Navy or Military Force. Shouldn't he have gone through at least a few enlisted ranks before being made Ensign?
Every redshirt seems to have been an Ensign at least. You would expect that at least for away teams, they'd use some enlisted people to do the "grunt work". If you don't let your enlisted take care of that, what exactly do you use them for?
"Star Trek: TNG", "Star Trek: DS9", and "Star Trek: Voyager" had a mess of non-officers working in both important and unimportant positions.
Some of the non-Starfleet personnel include:
Nog, Odo, Kira, Guinan, Neelix, Seven of Nine, Dr. Phlox,
Naomi Wildman, T'pol, Jake Sisko, Diana's Mother, Sisko's Girlfriend
Nog and Wesley started off as ensign.
Naomi Wildman also joined Starfleet.
Seven of Nine never joined Starfleet, but she ended up teaching at Starfleet academy.
Sarek was an ambassador to the United Federation of Planets. When it comes to the hats question:
Picard (Holodeck Programs)
Guinan (On the Job)
Dax (Holodeck Program & Vedek Outfit)
Sisko (Baseball Cap)
Kira (Holodeck Program & Vedek Outfit)
Dr. Crusher (Holodeck Programs)
Pulaski (Holodeck Programs)
Geordi (Holodeck Programs)
Data (Holodeck Programs)
I think the TOS Vulcans or Romulans have their officers wear helmets.
And to all of you who say there is little to no enlisted riddle me this.
Class of 2409 that your hero graduates from, and granted this is the graduating class of that YEAR, is basically enough to put on a Miranda class ship. Crew of 200. And not all 200 positions are filled by cadets since there is a training cadre aboard. So at best I'd call it about 170 cadets aboard for 1 class. For that year.
So average class is around 150-175. Where in the name of hell are you getting mostly officers on ships that require anywhere from 50-2000 people to crew them.
And there are HUNDREDS of ships in the fleet? Where are you magically finding these officers since the only officer Academy I know of is on Earth at San Francisco and has a graduating class of about max I can see 200 at a time for the ENTIRE of Starfleet.
So where are all these officers coming from? I'd really love to know. Because we have to account for officers Killed in action, retired and the like.
So again where are they finding the warm bodies to crew these ships that are officers? Please explain this one.
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Like TOS with, 'look at where all my clothes went' Kirk or the miniskirts? If the effects and budget had been around TOS would have had explosions galore as well.
You mean shirtless ToS Kirk? As far as TV shows of that time period i can only think of 1 that was trying to push sexy on screen and that's Gilligans Island with the movie star chick hehe. But i dont know much about TV shows of the 60's. I've watched a lot of old movies though like Ben Hur, the Ten Commandments or Bridge on the River Kwai. Those were of course mostly war/action movies with very little hinting of sexy sexy time with shirtless men. And they are movies so it's not a fair to compare what they did in a movie vs a TV show. But i do know that they were pushing a lot of boundaries in their day with ToS. Shirtless Kirk and hinting at a lot of alien fornication was just one of them. There was also the Asian looking helm officer and the "Russian" navigator and the Afro-American comm officer. Nichel Nichols actually commented about how her kiss with Shatner on screen back then was a big thing because it was like the first time on screen that a white guy kissed a black woman. I even remember watching an interview of Nichel where she talked about how MLK came up and talked to her and said that her being on screen was a good thing and that she shouldnt quit (i think she was thinking of quitting).
Now as far as JJT being provocative? i dont really need to say anything about that. Because even the JJ Abrams (I think he did) and the writer admitted that the Carol Marcus underwear scene was gratuitous. I even read that JJ Abrams is known for adding bra and panty shots to his movies. I didnt even find out about those admissions until after i saw the trailers showing Carol Marcus. And the first time i saw it i was like wow those are nice...but why is that even there? And there is also the Zoe Saldana thing which i've mentioned a bunch of times. I just found it odd that in ToS and in the movies Uhura seemed like she played a minor role. But on the DVD for JJT1 she is on the cover in front of McCoy? Kirks best friend? i think on my DVD cover McCoy isnt even on there, it's just Kirk, Spock and Uhura. And though i havent watched JJT2, i'm guessing that maybe you have? well i've heard about a scene where Kirk, Spock and Uhura are on a mission in a shuttlecraft and Spock and Uhura get into a relationship argument? i'm not even going to youtube it to see the full scene because just the small portion of what i saw of that scene nearly caused my eyes to fall out of my head cause i eyerolled so hard.
But dont worry though...my observations on the sexualization of ST isnt limited to JJ Trek. In ST5 when they were on Nimbus III and to distract a guard post they had Uhura dancing behind some big leaves or something, i kinda rolled my eyes at that scene too.
Whenever people talk about Starfleet, they miss that it belongs to The United Federation of Planets. Someone can hold an important position in the Federation while serving on a starship. You do not need to join Starfleet, so you can get an important position on a ship.
Yeah, I'm not a Klink or anything, but what's with the Dahar Master thing? 'Dahar Master' is an honorary rank, given to revered warriors. It's not a standard rank you get promoted to.
Probably because its one of the only higher ranks that is mentioned on screen for the KDF besides General.
We have heard almost nothing about non-officers in Star Trek.
I mean, even Wesley started as Ensign, and Ensign is definitely not the lowest rank in any contemporary Navy or Military Force. Shouldn't he have gone through at least a few enlisted ranks before being made Ensign?
Every redshirt seems to have been an Ensign at least. You would expect that at least for away teams, they'd use some enlisted people to do the "grunt work". If you don't let your enlisted take care of that, what exactly do you use them for?
That's because Wesley was performing the duties of an officer in the informal OCS training he was receiving on the ship. All of Wesley's time in the grey uniform was on the job training for going to Starfleet Academy, the officer training school of the academy.
As the stories focus on officers the enlisted aren't going to be highlighted. As a former enlisted man let me assure you, if there was a television show about the officers on my ship, I would be a background extra unless I was taking orders from them.
Most red shirts are ensigns for the most part that we see.
Worf's pops, Serghey Rozhenko was also a Chief.
That said, Starfleet is different.
Remember, Starfleet is as much NASA as NAVY. Most of the things that are the important part of the mission would require a college degree. Exobiologist, Geologist, Astrophysicist, xenoarchaeologist, biochemist, these things don't just require a college degree but usually a doctorate. You're not gonna find too many grunts of any kind in science department unless they're the guys are responsible for repairing the analysis equipment. A Space Shuttle doesn't have enlisted these guys are officer grade mission personnel and scientists.
A Starfleet vessel would reflect that higher officer concentration by necessity of its mission.
Ensigns would be sent on away teams more, they need the experience, plus they're young and motivated.
Klingons also have enlisted, but they're just called Warrior. The most prominent Klingon enlisted is Martok, who started as a Civilian Laborer and earned his officer rank by virtue of his awesomeness after Kor screwed him out of being an officer (Battlefield Commission like a BOSS).
Again watch star trek 6. You'll see PLENTY of enlisted. Or hell Star Trek 2, the crewman scotty talks about, he was enlisted.
Here I'll run a list for you. Naomi Wildman's Mother. Crewman
There was a group of screwups that Janeway took out in the Delta flier. ALL CREWMAN.
Crewman DAX on the Ent A when the found the gravity boots. That entire area was a crewman berthing, held probably about 40 people. Think officers sleep like that? NOPE.
Most of the redshirts kirk sent to kill, usually CREWMAN. Yes there was a few ensigns but some of them were crewman.
I mean the Orignal Enterprise had a crew of 400. You honestly think most of them were officers? You really think the academy can churn out people like that?
O'Brien. He didn't start out a chief. He had to be enlisted at some point. Only reason you don't see more of them, is because very show focuses on the senior staff and bridge crew.
Hell most of the people working with LaForge in Engineering CREWMEN or petty officers.
Sorry you are not going to convince me on a crew of over 400 most of them are officers. You're out of your mind.
Samantha Wildman was an ensign.
O'Brien is STILL enlisted. A Senior Chief Petty Officer is the second highest enlisted Naval rank, behind only....:D The Master Chief. E-8 and E-9 respectively.
"Rise like Lions after slumber, In unvanquishable number, Shake your chains to earth like dew, Which in sleep had fallen on you-Ye are many they are few"
Yeah, I'm not a Klink or anything, but what's with the Dahar Master thing? 'Dahar Master' is an honorary rank, given to revered warriors. It's not a standard rank you get promoted to.
Dahar Master is not a rank. Its a tittle that means 'Legendary'.
Klingon version of Fleet Admiral would be 'Leader of the Klingon Empire' or Emperor.
That's because Wesley was performing the duties of an officer in the informal OCS training he was receiving on the ship. All of Wesley's time in the grey uniform was on the job training for going to Starfleet Academy, the officer training school of the academy.
As the stories focus on officers the enlisted aren't going to be highlighted. As a former enlisted man let me assure you, if there was a television show about the officers on my ship, I would be a background extra unless I was taking orders from them.
Most red shirts are ensigns for the most part that we see.
Worf's pops, Serghey Rozhenko was also a Chief.
That said, Starfleet is different.
Remember, Starfleet is as much NASA as NAVY. Most of the things that are the important part of the mission would require a college degree. Exobiologist, Geologist, Astrophysicist, xenoarchaeologist, biochemist, these things don't just require a college degree but usually a doctorate. You're not gonna find too many grunts of any kind in science department unless they're the guys are responsible for repairing the analysis equipment. A Space Shuttle doesn't have enlisted these guys are officer grade mission personnel and scientists.
A Starfleet vessel would reflect that higher officer concentration by necessity of its mission.
Ensigns would be sent on away teams more, they need the experience, plus they're young and motivated.
Klingons also have enlisted, but they're just called Warrior. The most prominent Klingon enlisted is Martok, who started as a Civilian Laborer and earned his officer rank by virtue of his awesomeness after Kor screwed him out of being an officer (Battlefield Commission like a BOSS).
Samantha Wildman was an ensign.
O'Brien is STILL enlisted. A Senior Chief Petty Officer is the second highest enlisted Naval rank, behind only....:D The Master Chief. E-8 and E-9 respectively.
I thought wildman was a crewman? I could be wrong.
And Chief O'Brien became Senior Cheif....Warrant Officer.
But anyhoo, there are actually more enlisted than people think. I mean hell what would be a master's or doctorate's today would probably be simply high school education by starfleet time.
People should read "Honor Among Enemies". It gives a very indepth look at the enlisted side of a futuristic warship.
Enlisted were doing computer troubleshooting and diagnostics for goodness sakes. Trust me enlisted folks to be enlisted in starfleet, pretty much have to have the equivalent of our Master's degrees depending on where you go. Engineering, applied mathmatics, diagnostics to works. Enlisted do those jobs like Chief O'Brien did on DS9.
I get what you are saying as far as NASA and yeah they probably have a higher officer to enlisted than the current day USN, but still, Star fleet Academy can only crank out so many warm bodies. Gotta fill the rest somewhere.
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And there is also the Zoe Saldana thing which i've mentioned a bunch of times. I just found it odd that in ToS and in the movies Uhura seemed like she played a minor role.
In the novels, Uhura sometimes played more of a role. Including the implication that she may be interested in Spock. Though I think there's even a TOS scene that might imply it (she is singing something about, with or to him, IIRC).
Uhura wasn't very important in the TV show and just a minor role because she was already a black female officer. Also the show developed mostly around the trio of Spock/McCoy/Kirk. Scotty, Checkov, Sulu, Uhura - they were all minor roles compared to the three.
Nowadays, her role as black female officer is not extraordinary any more.
Of course, there may also be a bit of making the movies appealing to a female audience - a woman that is just background eye candy is demeaning, a woman with an active role and relevant skills for the story (she isn't just Spock's hot girlfriend - she is the language expert) is appealing.
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I thought wildman was a crewman? I could be wrong.
And Chief O'Brien became Senior Cheif....Warrant Officer.
Senior Chief PETTY Officer.
I'm not offering it up as a debate it's literally indisputable. That was his rank. If he was a Warrant officer then he wouldn't have had to call Nog sir. O'Brien was an enlisted. There was some question of it during TNG but by DS9 it was finalized.
Wildman was an ensign and a xenobiologist (which is hilarious considering her family situation), I checked Memory Alpha.
But anyhoo, there are actually more enlisted than people think. I mean hell what would be a master's or doctorate's today would probably be simply high school education by starfleet time.
People should read "Honor Among Enemies". It gives a very indepth look at the enlisted side of a futuristic warship.
Enlisted were doing computer troubleshooting and diagnostics for goodness sakes. Trust me enlisted folks to be enlisted in starfleet, pretty much have to have the equivalent of our Master's degrees depending on where you go. Engineering, applied mathmatics, diagnostics to works. Enlisted do those jobs like Chief O'Brien did on DS9.
I get what you are saying as far as NASA and yeah they probably have a higher officer to enlisted than the current day USN, but still, Star fleet Academy can only crank out so many warm bodies. Gotta fill the rest somewhere.
Well they are teaching calculus in grade school.
And no, the enlisted people wouldn't have the equivalent of master's degrees in the modern era. The Voyger episode mentioned above "Good Shepard", those crewman certainly did not have masters in anything.
O'Brien is the natural counterpoint to the officers. He gained his experience by doing a bunch of jobs over many years. He had been a ground soldier (security), tactical officer, conn, operations manager, and transporter operator and those are the jobs we know about.
I'm not saying they don't have enlisted, I'm just saying it makes sense that we would see less of them. Instead of 200 officers and 800 enlisted, we might see 500 officers and 500 enlisted, though on a Galaxy class in the mid 24th century it may be 400 officers, 400 enlisted, and 200 civilians. Many of those officers wouldn't be in the natural chain of command, like Troi in "Disaster" where the officer of the deck was a lieutenant and only after she died did command fall to Lieutenant Commander Troi. The Science, medical, and engineering department would be filled with officers who are specialists who aren't in the chain of command proper.
"Rise like Lions after slumber, In unvanquishable number, Shake your chains to earth like dew, Which in sleep had fallen on you-Ye are many they are few"
Comments
But riddle me this. Would spock follow Kirk on a suicide mission like the one USS Valkryie attempted when there was little to no gain besides glory?
Most crews would of called the Captain ludicrous and relieved him of command. Which is what Nog should of done.
Also comparing modern day relations to the war of 1812, bad analysis. Completely different time well before the UN which is if you think about it what the Federation is based off of.
But unlike the UN, they actually have a military/exploration arm to back it up.
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Except someone has to be the guy who destroyed the doomsday machine, somebody rescued Miral Paris, etc. Its not every single member of starfleet. It isn't 'headcanon', its the plot.
To me, a hero did this, I simply just relived his missions in a holodeck with my bridge crew. :cool:
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That doesn't explain your one year rise to admiralty. Unless everything is a holodeck. :eek:
Except 1) Spock was the XO and Nog didn't have any position on the ship until Waters gave him one, 2) Spock admitted he didn't really have much choice but to follow Commodore Decker's order which were basically to chase after an indestructible machine that can easily defeat them until an opportunity to relieve him showed up, by the time Nog might have that the ship was already wrecked.
So an ensign that shows up on the ship can relieve the captain (again no one except fans who can't say for certain how Starfleet works disputed the commision) based on said ensign's judgement. Can you say mutiny?
I still don't think the US would give a TRIBBLE if the UN said another nation diverting a US Navy destroyer (the modern equivalent of the Enterprise it seems) was okay and they would still be pissed at the captain for basically going AWOL. And no I doubt they would like it, if it was a US State doing it either.
In the situation with the Valkyrie yes Nog could and SHOULD of taken command. It's called the chain of command and the rank structure. Guess what, even with a field command of a ship, he is not of senior rank to a commissioned officer.
Hell what that "captain" Should of done is brought the Valiant back to Star Fleet and reported what happened. Instead it went rogue, disregarded a senior officer regardless of his billet and he's a CADET. He holds a midshipman's warrent. Nog is a COMMISSIONED OFFICER.
Let that sink in. In that situation Nog should as senior officer and the only commissioned officer among cadets and brought that ship back to federation territory.
Sorry it's one of those situations where you have a bunch of academy kids in charge of a warship and suddenly granted the most junior officer on the rank structure appears, he on the spot becomes captain. Or should have.
Now it's different when it's two captains. Had the valiant CO been a captain and Nog been a captain, well even if Nog was senior, Waters would of been in command of the ship, hell even if Waters had been a LTcmdr, it goes into a grey area since Waters is the legal CO.
But as a midshipman, that's a completely different story. He should of INSTANTLY deferred to a commissioned officer.
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Now I'm wondering if this is the last ever level cap increase since that mean Klingons will end up at basically the do whatever the f@#k you want rank.
Honestly General Order 7 itself makes no sense. While the Talosians were initially hostile, they had already declared that humans weren't viable. Especially considering what we know about how Starfleet does business it would make more sense that Starfleet would send a terraforming team to assist the Talosians in reconstructing their planet.
Which you say while ignoring that I used a United Nations based analogy which was as close as one can get with modern politics. No one mentioned anything about War of 1812, where your analogy is worthless. There's no parallel to diverting to an enemy nation vs diverting for a close ally.
The better analogy is indeed the second one I offered. It's not just a high ranking member of the government this is a woman involved in the founding of the Federation, which would be like telling Ben Franklin or John Hancock to go TRIBBLE off. And before you blow that off, keep in mind that someone like George Washington if he were to get up out of the grave is still the highest ranking member of the US Military. T'Pau has the virtue of actually just living that long.
But they didn't tell Sarek that. They told Kirk that. Sarek expected (with a degree of logic) that a full Admiral like Kirk would be able to run and pick up Spock and be done with it. Admiral Morrow was being unusually obstructive, he could've easily said, we'll contact Grissom and have them pick up the body if they find it. Problem solved.
It always bothered me that they couldn't just say that Spock had a life threatening illness that required immediate treatment on Vulcan and ride the Doctor Patient confidentiality from that. Starfleet issuing orders that would cause the death of an officer don't seem to be particularly valid, especially not for a diplomatic function.
That is funny.
But those crews had loyalty to their captain, like Red Squad had to Watters, so they by the same note wouldn't have given Nog the same. In other words in that scenario, Nog would be the insane Admiral from their perspective. And let's be clear I KNOW that Red Squad wouldn't have helped. They would've thrown him in the brig too. That idea is also why it was Nog and not Kira who was on the mission as originally planned, as no one believed that Kira wouldn't have just crushed the snot nosed punks.
The weirdest thing was him promoting Nog to Lieutenant Commander, what the hell?
There's a degree of bailment to the proceedings. He was charged with command of the vessel and could only be relieved by Starfleet command in one theory. It's a positional authority type thing.
This is what the wik has to say about breveting in the US.
Since clearly the President of the Federation wouldn't be available it's reasonable to think that a Captain could do it, look at Picard making Wesley a full ensign before he even went to the academy.
Which is perfect for a game. It's like a Klingon SPECTRE.
I thought it was an interesting aspect of his character that Riker was by nature ambitious, but willingly deferred the chance to have his own command, because he realized there was much he could learn from Picard. However, IIRC, there was one episode in which he wrestles with an offer of a command, and it's specifically mentioned that Starfleet had a shortage of experienced officers following the catastrophe of the Battle of Wolf 359. In that circumstance, it seemed outright irresponsible of Riker to forego the promotion.
Servers called Holodeck for a reason.
What does it have to do with it? because the roots of this fictional space military traces back to our actual military. So it's reasonable for me to assume that they share a lot of the similar traditions.
And you mention hats and salutes. You know where the original salute comes from right? according to the many PSA commercials i watched as a kid on AFN (armed forces network) the original salute goes back to the age when armored knights rode on horseback. Back then it was a gesture that served two purposes. One, the lifting of the visor was meant to show the approaching knight who you were. And two since the sword was commonly swung with the right hand using that hand to open your visor also meant that you were unarmed and not a threat. So it started out as a gesture, got turned into a formality, and who knows maybe in a couple of years or hundred years from now it got phased out (not talking about in trek i mean if they actually phased it out irl). And hats? hats are part of a uniform and they actually serve a purpose. But there are areas where hats are not authorized such as an active flightline where it can blow away and get sucked into a jet turbine. Flightlines, or at least most flightlines in the Air Force are also labeled as no hat no salute areas. And as you may have seen in most hollywood movies like Forrest Gump, combat zones are also no salute areas.
Now why am i telling you all this useless knowledge? because it shows that when it is impractical to wear a hat or to salute the military puts out rules and regulations telling you not to wear hats and not to salute. I dont know what the regulations state about the wear of hats on navy ships. I believe on navy ships its allowed, possibly because ships have a lot of bulkheads and low doors so wearing a hat provides a tiny bit of cushioning. I know thats one of the reasons maintenance workers on aircraft wear their hats despite flightlines being a no hat area. But anytime you are indoors you remove your hat, when you go outdoors you put your hat back on. You'll see military guys doing it almost like clockwork. The instant my foot crossed the doorway bam hat was off, as soon as my foot crossed the doorway to step outside bam hat was back on. Also i wonder...what reason would a Starfleet officer have for wearing a hat on a starship? so that they can keep the sun out of their eyes?
Actually i didnt want to say it cause i didnt want to offend anyone that liked JJ Trek. But did you notice how the JJ Trek movies have Zoe Saldana front and center? In one of the DVD covers its Kirk, Uhura and Spock on the cover. And of course there is the locker room scene with Carol "look at where all my clothes went" Marcus? Notice the amount of explosions and action sequences in the JJ Trek movies? yah...thats the audience i was talking about. You dont think that they are trying to appeal to peoples testicles or their love for michael bay-like explosions?
You know what? now that i think of it they *did* wear hats in Star Trek. Generations, the movie during Worfs promotion ceremony. They were all on the holodeck on a recreation of the mast ship USS Enterprise and they wore the uniform of that time period, including the hat.
So again...it is a made up future military yes. But one that is modeled on the US Navy, and one that has similar customs, courtesies and traditions (and holodeck apparel) of this time period and recent time periods. Other then that i'm not going to scour every episode and movie looking for little things like salutes and headgear. It's kinda too late to ask Gene Roddenberry why he never had Starfleet officers giving each other a formal salute. Or why he left that out yet decided that a junior officer would snap to attention when addressed or near a superior officer (Harry Kim first meeting Janeway) only to stop standing at attention when given the command to stand at ease (Janeway telling Kim to not break anything).
EDIT: now JJ Trek may be canon and i wont argue that. However i pretty much view his movie the same way i view video games that have a tactical theme. You know...the kind of games that has you running around shooting people as a Private and then after playing long enough you are still running around as a General using the same weapons and gear doing the same work. Obviously a lot of the things we do in STO are the same way, but i only tolerate it so that i can fly around in my cool spaceships and pretend that i'm in Starfleet.
I think someone that battled alongside Khaless against the Fekiri or what they are called probably deserves a honorary rank. When you finally get to level 60, that happens to e acknowledged.
Yes they do, just because they aren't promoted or demoted onscreen there's no reason to suspect they weren't moved about, it was long term changes not episodic.
Does fleet captain exist as a rank in ST? Or is it just a position? There are a number of TNG admirals addressed as 'Fleet' Admirals despite being Rear or Vice admirals, Fleet Captain could just be a position.
It's not a rank.
I do know that on Royal Navy vessels you sit to salute, you don't even stand for the Queen on-board.
Like TOS with, 'look at where all my clothes went' Kirk or the miniskirts? If the effects and budget had been around TOS would have had explosions galore as well.
That was the HMS Enterprise, and the uniforms were Royal Navy, i.e. England.
Also you don't need to scour any episodes, there were two examples of hats, ENTs baseball caps and a hat on Pikes shelf in The Cage (and the JJ Hats) , there was NO saluting at all outside the Terren Empire from Humans in ST. It's not a part of SF at all.
Another difference is the lack of enlisted crew. Starfleet is mainly crewed by officers with only a few petty officers or crewman, again I'm not sure about the US Navy, but that seems like a large difference.
Norway and Yeager dammit... I still want my Typhoon and Jupiter though.
JJ Trek The Kelvin Timeline is just Trek and it's fully canon... get over it. But I still prefer TAR.
#TASforSTO
'...I can tell you that we're not in the military and that we intend no harm to the whales.' Kirk: The Voyage Home
'Starfleet is not a military organisation. Its purpose is exploration.' Picard: Peak Performance
'This is clearly a military operation. Is that what we are now? Because I thought we were explorers!' Scotty: Into Darkness
'...The Federation. Starfleet. We're not a military agency.' Scotty: Beyond
'I'm not a soldier anymore. I'm an engineer.' Miles O'Brien: Empok Nor
'...Starfleet could use you... It's a peacekeeping and humanitarian armada...' Admiral Pike: Star Trek
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This is the silliest thing I've read on this thread. Ever watched Star Trek VI, or hell TNG. You really think the Ent D was comprised of mostly officers with a crew of just over 1000? You're dreaming if you think most Star Fleet ships are crewed by mostly officers with few petty officers.
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We have heard almost nothing about non-officers in Star Trek.
I mean, even Wesley started as Ensign, and Ensign is definitely not the lowest rank in any contemporary Navy or Military Force. Shouldn't he have gone through at least a few enlisted ranks before being made Ensign?
Every redshirt seems to have been an Ensign at least. You would expect that at least for away teams, they'd use some enlisted people to do the "grunt work". If you don't let your enlisted take care of that, what exactly do you use them for?
Again watch star trek 6. You'll see PLENTY of enlisted. Or hell Star Trek 2, the crewman scotty talks about, he was enlisted.
Here I'll run a list for you. Naomi Wildman's Mother. Crewman
There was a group of screwups that Janeway took out in the Delta flier. ALL CREWMAN.
Crewman DAX on the Ent A when the found the gravity boots. That entire area was a crewman berthing, held probably about 40 people. Think officers sleep like that? NOPE.
Most of the redshirts kirk sent to kill, usually CREWMAN. Yes there was a few ensigns but some of them were crewman.
I mean the Orignal Enterprise had a crew of 400. You honestly think most of them were officers? You really think the academy can churn out people like that?
O'Brien. He didn't start out a chief. He had to be enlisted at some point. Only reason you don't see more of them, is because very show focuses on the senior staff and bridge crew.
Hell most of the people working with LaForge in Engineering CREWMEN or petty officers.
Sorry you are not going to convince me on a crew of over 400 most of them are officers. You're out of your mind.
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Some of the non-Starfleet personnel include:
Nog, Odo, Kira, Guinan, Neelix, Seven of Nine, Dr. Phlox,
Naomi Wildman, T'pol, Jake Sisko, Diana's Mother, Sisko's Girlfriend
Nog and Wesley started off as ensign.
Naomi Wildman also joined Starfleet.
Seven of Nine never joined Starfleet, but she ended up teaching at Starfleet academy.
Sarek was an ambassador to the United Federation of Planets.
When it comes to the hats question:
Picard (Holodeck Programs)
Guinan (On the Job)
Dax (Holodeck Program & Vedek Outfit)
Sisko (Baseball Cap)
Kira (Holodeck Program & Vedek Outfit)
Dr. Crusher (Holodeck Programs)
Pulaski (Holodeck Programs)
Geordi (Holodeck Programs)
Data (Holodeck Programs)
I think the TOS Vulcans or Romulans have their officers wear helmets.
Class of 2409 that your hero graduates from, and granted this is the graduating class of that YEAR, is basically enough to put on a Miranda class ship. Crew of 200. And not all 200 positions are filled by cadets since there is a training cadre aboard. So at best I'd call it about 170 cadets aboard for 1 class. For that year.
So average class is around 150-175. Where in the name of hell are you getting mostly officers on ships that require anywhere from 50-2000 people to crew them.
And there are HUNDREDS of ships in the fleet? Where are you magically finding these officers since the only officer Academy I know of is on Earth at San Francisco and has a graduating class of about max I can see 200 at a time for the ENTIRE of Starfleet.
So where are all these officers coming from? I'd really love to know. Because we have to account for officers Killed in action, retired and the like.
So again where are they finding the warm bodies to crew these ships that are officers? Please explain this one.
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You mean shirtless ToS Kirk? As far as TV shows of that time period i can only think of 1 that was trying to push sexy on screen and that's Gilligans Island with the movie star chick hehe. But i dont know much about TV shows of the 60's. I've watched a lot of old movies though like Ben Hur, the Ten Commandments or Bridge on the River Kwai. Those were of course mostly war/action movies with very little hinting of sexy sexy time with shirtless men. And they are movies so it's not a fair to compare what they did in a movie vs a TV show. But i do know that they were pushing a lot of boundaries in their day with ToS. Shirtless Kirk and hinting at a lot of alien fornication was just one of them. There was also the Asian looking helm officer and the "Russian" navigator and the Afro-American comm officer. Nichel Nichols actually commented about how her kiss with Shatner on screen back then was a big thing because it was like the first time on screen that a white guy kissed a black woman. I even remember watching an interview of Nichel where she talked about how MLK came up and talked to her and said that her being on screen was a good thing and that she shouldnt quit (i think she was thinking of quitting).
Now as far as JJT being provocative? i dont really need to say anything about that. Because even the JJ Abrams (I think he did) and the writer admitted that the Carol Marcus underwear scene was gratuitous. I even read that JJ Abrams is known for adding bra and panty shots to his movies. I didnt even find out about those admissions until after i saw the trailers showing Carol Marcus. And the first time i saw it i was like wow those are nice...but why is that even there? And there is also the Zoe Saldana thing which i've mentioned a bunch of times. I just found it odd that in ToS and in the movies Uhura seemed like she played a minor role. But on the DVD for JJT1 she is on the cover in front of McCoy? Kirks best friend? i think on my DVD cover McCoy isnt even on there, it's just Kirk, Spock and Uhura. And though i havent watched JJT2, i'm guessing that maybe you have? well i've heard about a scene where Kirk, Spock and Uhura are on a mission in a shuttlecraft and Spock and Uhura get into a relationship argument? i'm not even going to youtube it to see the full scene because just the small portion of what i saw of that scene nearly caused my eyes to fall out of my head cause i eyerolled so hard.
But dont worry though...my observations on the sexualization of ST isnt limited to JJ Trek. In ST5 when they were on Nimbus III and to distract a guard post they had Uhura dancing behind some big leaves or something, i kinda rolled my eyes at that scene too.
Probably because its one of the only higher ranks that is mentioned on screen for the KDF besides General.
That's because Wesley was performing the duties of an officer in the informal OCS training he was receiving on the ship. All of Wesley's time in the grey uniform was on the job training for going to Starfleet Academy, the officer training school of the academy.
As the stories focus on officers the enlisted aren't going to be highlighted. As a former enlisted man let me assure you, if there was a television show about the officers on my ship, I would be a background extra unless I was taking orders from them.
We have been able to glean that Starfleet enlisted go to the Technical Services Academy.
Most red shirts are ensigns for the most part that we see.
Worf's pops, Serghey Rozhenko was also a Chief.
That said, Starfleet is different.
Remember, Starfleet is as much NASA as NAVY. Most of the things that are the important part of the mission would require a college degree. Exobiologist, Geologist, Astrophysicist, xenoarchaeologist, biochemist, these things don't just require a college degree but usually a doctorate. You're not gonna find too many grunts of any kind in science department unless they're the guys are responsible for repairing the analysis equipment. A Space Shuttle doesn't have enlisted these guys are officer grade mission personnel and scientists.
A Starfleet vessel would reflect that higher officer concentration by necessity of its mission.
Ensigns would be sent on away teams more, they need the experience, plus they're young and motivated.
Klingons also have enlisted, but they're just called Warrior. The most prominent Klingon enlisted is Martok, who started as a Civilian Laborer and earned his officer rank by virtue of his awesomeness after Kor screwed him out of being an officer (Battlefield Commission like a BOSS).
Samantha Wildman was an ensign.
O'Brien is STILL enlisted. A Senior Chief Petty Officer is the second highest enlisted Naval rank, behind only....:D The Master Chief. E-8 and E-9 respectively.
Klingon version of Fleet Admiral would be 'Leader of the Klingon Empire' or Emperor.
And Chief O'Brien became Senior Cheif....Warrant Officer.
But anyhoo, there are actually more enlisted than people think. I mean hell what would be a master's or doctorate's today would probably be simply high school education by starfleet time.
People should read "Honor Among Enemies". It gives a very indepth look at the enlisted side of a futuristic warship.
Enlisted were doing computer troubleshooting and diagnostics for goodness sakes. Trust me enlisted folks to be enlisted in starfleet, pretty much have to have the equivalent of our Master's degrees depending on where you go. Engineering, applied mathmatics, diagnostics to works. Enlisted do those jobs like Chief O'Brien did on DS9.
I get what you are saying as far as NASA and yeah they probably have a higher officer to enlisted than the current day USN, but still, Star fleet Academy can only crank out so many warm bodies. Gotta fill the rest somewhere.
Star Trek Battles member. Want to roll with a good group of people regardless of fleets and not have to worry about DPS while doing STFs? Come join the channel and join in the fun!
http://forum.arcgames.com/startrekonline/discussion/1145998/star-trek-battles-channel-got-canon/p1
Uhura wasn't very important in the TV show and just a minor role because she was already a black female officer. Also the show developed mostly around the trio of Spock/McCoy/Kirk. Scotty, Checkov, Sulu, Uhura - they were all minor roles compared to the three.
Nowadays, her role as black female officer is not extraordinary any more.
Of course, there may also be a bit of making the movies appealing to a female audience - a woman that is just background eye candy is demeaning, a woman with an active role and relevant skills for the story (she isn't just Spock's hot girlfriend - she is the language expert) is appealing.
I'm not offering it up as a debate it's literally indisputable. That was his rank. If he was a Warrant officer then he wouldn't have had to call Nog sir. O'Brien was an enlisted. There was some question of it during TNG but by DS9 it was finalized.
Wildman was an ensign and a xenobiologist (which is hilarious considering her family situation), I checked Memory Alpha.
Well they are teaching calculus in grade school.
And no, the enlisted people wouldn't have the equivalent of master's degrees in the modern era. The Voyger episode mentioned above "Good Shepard", those crewman certainly did not have masters in anything.
O'Brien is the natural counterpoint to the officers. He gained his experience by doing a bunch of jobs over many years. He had been a ground soldier (security), tactical officer, conn, operations manager, and transporter operator and those are the jobs we know about.
I'm not saying they don't have enlisted, I'm just saying it makes sense that we would see less of them. Instead of 200 officers and 800 enlisted, we might see 500 officers and 500 enlisted, though on a Galaxy class in the mid 24th century it may be 400 officers, 400 enlisted, and 200 civilians. Many of those officers wouldn't be in the natural chain of command, like Troi in "Disaster" where the officer of the deck was a lieutenant and only after she died did command fall to Lieutenant Commander Troi. The Science, medical, and engineering department would be filled with officers who are specialists who aren't in the chain of command proper.