Bringing up slavers and doff missions are moral examples which are part of this moral discussion. It absolutely belongs in our conversations as they deal with morality, which in itself isn't subject to any specific forum.
Perhaps but identifying examples of immoral acts in the game doesn't justify the addition of another.
Unless you or another can provide a clear and undisputed justification for the Proposed mission's content, then it will continue to be met with hostility by the Community
I would think it very clear by now that the vast majority of the vocal foundry Community reject this Idea and are appalled at the foundry being used in such a manner,
This is not going to change short of a monumentally well reasoned justification, and I suspect you don't actually have one, or else it would have been provided by now instead of the clutching at desperately pathetic arguments we have seen so far.
None of us seem to see any artistic, moralistic, or entertainment Value in this idea, and its clearly not about shooting faceless enemies, We could have borg if you want unrestrained Pew pew agaisnt enemies whose deaths have no moral implications
The idea is to execute Concentration camp detainees , specifically this is what its about, and I see no justification to do this, not only that But its Racially motivated, Fantasy or not, this is a genocide fantasy, and it disturbs most rational people to even think about participating in it
These are the Voyages on the STO forum, the final frontier. Our continuing mission: to explore Pretentious Posts, to seek out new Overreactions and Misinformation , to boldly experience Cynicism like no man has before.......
Um...will I get lynched here if I say I'm actually considering this offer? Now, Druk is almost certainly trolling here, as part of what's apparently a hazing ritual for Starfleet Dental, I guess? Not really sure. Nonetheless, if he's serious about the offer...that's good cash. And I actually have an idea of how to use a framing device to make this rather less ridiculous.
Basically, the Foundry mission revolves around some kind of diplomatic incident with the Cardassians, and someone puts forth a holodeck simulation of the events at Gallitep, to prove a point. Not sure who does this, or what the point in question is, but that's the general idea.
...of course, I'm also a borderline insane megalomaniac with no real grasp on the idea of objective morality, so there's that.
Askray is a mod, not a dev. His views are not affiliated with Cryptic.
Nor am I a GM or customer support. If they feel the mission goes to far they're allowed to remove it so is any community manager. My position on this thread is my own, and I've taken action because of it.
Ok. I will expand on why I think this isn't just a bad idea, but actually a terrible idea, and an offensive one.
Let's grab some quotes from the much linked Memory Alpha Page regarding this labor camp.
"Murder was just the end of the fun for them; first came the humiliation. Mothers ***** in front of their children, husbands beaten until their wives couldn't recognize them, old people buried alive because they couldn't work anymore."
- Kira Nerys, describing Gallitep
Gallitep was a forced labor camp on the planet Bajor that was run by Gul Darhe'el during the Cardassian Occupation of Bajor. Conditions in the camp were considered to be brutal and hostile.
Darhe'el was one of the most brutal overseers of any labor camp on Bajor. Innocent Bajorans were executed on a regular basis, but not before they were tortured and humiliated. In many cases, Bajorans were forced to dig their own graves -- literally.
So. What you are saying Askray is that requesting that someone make a mission glorifying ; **** of mothers in front of their children, Beatings of prisoners, burning the elderly alive, executions, and so on and so on, is totally fine.
Going farther , you are saying that asking to make the heroes (the PCs) the people committing these atrocities is also fine.
Basically the OP is asking for a Concentration Camp simulator. This is insanely offensive, and it's being allowed?
Yeah, I understand this logic ... NOT.
Apparently it is fine to ask for or commision a War Crimes/Concentration Camp sim, but if the OP was about Disco Balls or T5 Connies, it would get closed.
Seriously, Askray.
Seriously.
Try and defend that position.
I like you man.
But allowing this to continue is a mistake.
In short :
Using the Forums to commision a War Crimes/Concentration Camp Simulator = Just Fine
Talk about T5 Connie or Disco = Not Fine
What is wrong with this world?
There are limitations to what is allowed in game, and obviously the Terms of Service comes into play. That said, there is an easy way to make a mission that goes into the Gallitep incident without violating ToS. There are ways to do it as well. Anyone doing this mission will have to make that decision for themselves.
I want to make a mission where the player time travels to 1940's Earth and assists Hitler in running a concentration camp, while glorifying his actions. But I also want to make it Trek, so I'll replace Hitler with Gul Darhe'el, the concentration camp with Galitep, and the innocent prisoners with Bajorans.
No sane person in their right mind would support the first sentence. Yet you support the second, Askray. That is a bad move and I will call you out on it.
Can you look me straight in the face and say that glorifying a representation of Hilter and TRIBBLE concentration camps is okay? In a Star Trek game?
Look at the threads created by the OP. You and I both know why they were created, and if you don't I'll give you a hint: It's not to stimulate thoughtful discussion or anything remotely close.
No I wouldn't support it because that's a REAL LIFE SITUATION. Gallitep is not a real life situation.
Yes, I'm that Askray@Batbayer in game. Yes, I still play. No, I don't care. Former Community Moderator, Former SSR DJ, Now Full time father to two kids, Husband, Retail Worker. Tiktok: @Askray Facebook: Askray113
Unless you or another can provide a clear and undisputed justification for the Proposed mission's content, then it will continue to be met with hostility by the Community
the fact that it's a video game, and therefore everything in it is all 1s and 0s, is justification enough
A normie goes "Oh, what's this?"
An otaku goes "UwU, what's this?"
A furry goes "OwO, what's this?"
A werewolf goes "Awoo, what's this?"
"It's nothing personal, I just don't feel like I've gotten to know a person until I've sniffed their crotch." "We said 'no' to Mr. Curiosity. We're not home. Curiosity is not welcome, it is not to be invited in. Curiosity...is bad. It gets you in trouble, it gets you killed, and more importantly...it makes you poor!"
Passion and Serenity are one.
I gain power by understanding both.
In the chaos of their battle, I bring order.
I am a shadow, darkness born from light.
The Force is united within me.
See, now I'm probably going to have to make this mission, because I've just been working with the premise and I've figured out a way to make this work really well. See what you're done, Druk? The dreaded Story Premise Infection has me, and it won't give up.
No I wouldn't support it because that's a REAL LIFE SITUATION. Gallitep is not a real life situation.
You're missing the point. How is making a game where you help a TRIBBLE concentration camp exterminate civilians any different from making a game where you help a Cardassian concentration camp exterminate civilians?
They're both works of fiction, and they're both glorifying systematic extermination of civilian populations on racial grounds. The only difference is that one consists of humans and the other of aliens. How is the one any morally different from the other?
Before you answer, consider that Star Trek uses aliens as metaphors for human nature.
"Great War! / And I cannot take more! / Great tour! / I keep on marching on / I play the great score / There will be no encore / Great War! / The War to End All Wars"
— Sabaton, "Great War"
the fact that it's a video game, and therefore everything in it is all 1s and 0s, is justification enough
No it isn't, Emotional triggers like this kind of scenario can have very real implication for people in the real world
Now its statistically unlikely to happen, but remains entirely possible that a technically well made mission depicting these events could provoke a reaction from an unwitting player who stumbles into the mission.
This is a responsibility that developers have to think about when making video games that involve this kind of content. Part of the very important function of Age restrictions and ratings.
STO is rated Teen, , The events at this concentration camp has references to extreme sexual abuse, torture and being burried alive , which really is not suitable for age 13 and up is it?
Of course one could edit that out of the scenario to make it more acceptable, but this was all part of this camps story line, lets not forget that shall we?
It would be Insensitive to produce such material and possibly immoral to do so knowing it could provoke a reaction.
These are the Voyages on the STO forum, the final frontier. Our continuing mission: to explore Pretentious Posts, to seek out new Overreactions and Misinformation , to boldly experience Cynicism like no man has before.......
No it isn't, Emotional triggers like this kind of scenario can have very real implication for people in the real world
Now its statistically unlikely to happen, but remains entirely possible that a technically well made mission depicting these events could provoke a reaction from an unwitting player who stumbles into the mission.
This is a responsibility that developers have to think about when making video games that involve this kind of content. Part of the very important function of Age restrictions and ratings.
STO is rated Teen, , The events at this concentration camp has references to extreme sexual abuse, torture and being burried alive , which really is not suitable for age 13 and up is it?
Of course one could edit that out of the scenario to make it more acceptable, but this was all part of this camps story line, lets not forget that shall we?
It would be Insensitive to produce such material and possibly immoral to do so knowing it could provoke a reaction.
that's what trigger warnings are for, something easily implemented with this handy little tool cryptic gave foundry authors called DESCRIPTIONS
A normie goes "Oh, what's this?"
An otaku goes "UwU, what's this?"
A furry goes "OwO, what's this?"
A werewolf goes "Awoo, what's this?"
"It's nothing personal, I just don't feel like I've gotten to know a person until I've sniffed their crotch." "We said 'no' to Mr. Curiosity. We're not home. Curiosity is not welcome, it is not to be invited in. Curiosity...is bad. It gets you in trouble, it gets you killed, and more importantly...it makes you poor!"
Passion and Serenity are one.
I gain power by understanding both.
In the chaos of their battle, I bring order.
I am a shadow, darkness born from light.
The Force is united within me.
You're missing the point. How is making a game where you help a TRIBBLE concentration camp exterminate civilians any different from making a game where you help a Cardassian concentration camp exterminate civilians?
They're both works of fiction, and they're both glorifying systematic extermination of civilian populations on racial grounds. The only difference is that one consists of humans and the other of aliens. How is the one any morally different from the other? Before you answer, consider that Star Trek uses aliens as metaphors for human nature.
This I feel is a very important part of the whole debate
These are the Voyages on the STO forum, the final frontier. Our continuing mission: to explore Pretentious Posts, to seek out new Overreactions and Misinformation , to boldly experience Cynicism like no man has before.......
You're missing the point. How is making a game where you help a TRIBBLE concentration camp exterminate civilians any different from making a game where you help a Cardassian concentration camp exterminate civilians?
They're both works of fiction, and they're both glorifying systematic extermination of civilian populations on racial grounds. The only difference is that one consists of humans and the other of aliens. How is the one any morally different from the other?
Before you answer, consider that Star Trek uses aliens as metaphors for human nature.
Which, IMO, is a rather selfish and arrogant thing to do. But then, I don't believe in the concept of fiction as fiction, but rather as a universe existing for its own sake. It just...it strikes me as narcissistic to create a fictional universe...where humans are the most unique and special out of all the many species, and even the alien species exist solely to comment on us. People say that the best science fiction uses its setting as a commentary on the human condition, but I disagree. The best science fiction creates a universe, and populates it, with as much originality as is possible. Creating a universe simply to exploit it for our own interests is...dubious. Using echoes of our own universe in order to establish credibility? Sure. But don't think you're being sophisticated and clever by reskinning human events to make a point, rather than creating a proper universe that can stand on its own.
After all, fiction is how universes propagate themselves, in my belief. It's best to create universes different from our own in order to promote diversity. Of course, universes don't really seem to compete with one another, so diversity may be a bit pointless compared to the way it is in genetics. Nonetheless, though...
Of course I could be completely wrong about how realities reproduce. It could be Sburb.
(Rant over. Sorry guys. I just...I honestly don't much like the Trekkian approach to constructed worlds.)
that's what trigger warnings are for, something easily implemented with this handy little tool cryptic gave foundry authors called DESCRIPTIONS
All well and good, but considering we are talking about a hypothetical mission, I don't know if the sociopathic fantasy Mission has a warning do I
These are the Voyages on the STO forum, the final frontier. Our continuing mission: to explore Pretentious Posts, to seek out new Overreactions and Misinformation , to boldly experience Cynicism like no man has before.......
All well and good, but considering we are talking about a hypothetical mission, I don't know if the sociopathic fantasy Mission has a warning do I
it was a challenge to create one...it would be the responsibility of whoever took up the challenge to include said warning
that's all assuming, of course, that the challenge was actually real and not the OP's boredom-fueled attempt at causing exactly what's currently occuring
A normie goes "Oh, what's this?"
An otaku goes "UwU, what's this?"
A furry goes "OwO, what's this?"
A werewolf goes "Awoo, what's this?"
"It's nothing personal, I just don't feel like I've gotten to know a person until I've sniffed their crotch." "We said 'no' to Mr. Curiosity. We're not home. Curiosity is not welcome, it is not to be invited in. Curiosity...is bad. It gets you in trouble, it gets you killed, and more importantly...it makes you poor!"
Passion and Serenity are one.
I gain power by understanding both.
In the chaos of their battle, I bring order.
I am a shadow, darkness born from light.
The Force is united within me.
Which, IMO, is a rather selfish and arrogant thing to do. But then, I don't believe in the concept of fiction as fiction, but rather as a universe existing for its own sake. It just...it strikes me as narcissistic to create a fictional universe...where humans are the most unique and special out of all the many species, and even the alien species exist solely to comment on us. People say that the best science fiction uses its setting as a commentary on the human condition, but I disagree. The best science fiction creates a universe, and populates it, with as much originality as is possible. Creating a universe simply to exploit it for our own interests is...dubious. Using echoes of our own universe in order to establish credibility? Sure. But don't think you're being sophisticated and clever by reskinning human events to make a point, rather than creating a proper universe that can stand on its own.
After all, fiction is how universes propagate themselves, in my belief. It's best to create universes different from our own in order to promote diversity. Of course, universes don't really seem to compete with one another, so diversity may be a bit pointless compared to the way it is in genetics. Nonetheless, though...
Of course I could be completely wrong about how realities reproduce. It could be Sburb.
(Rant over. Sorry guys. I just...I honestly don't much like the Trekkian approach to constructed worlds.)
As I said before, Star Trek is part Sci Fi, part Moral Fable hiding in a Sci Fi
Pure Sci Fi may well make its own world for a whole range of reasons, Star Trek is not Pure Sci Fi
These are the Voyages on the STO forum, the final frontier. Our continuing mission: to explore Pretentious Posts, to seek out new Overreactions and Misinformation , to boldly experience Cynicism like no man has before.......
No I wouldn't support it because that's a REAL LIFE SITUATION. Gallitep is not a real life situation.
This is honestly a terrible argument. Star Trek has always been about addressing real things through a thinly veiled costuming in a SF setting. We are trained to see through the veneer to interpret what it's saying about real life stuff.
It's why everyone in these threads instantly said, "You mean the concentration camp guy in that Holocaust episode??? WTF."
Honestly...I find the usual take on atrocities a bit odd. It's like...not that people take them too seriously, exactly...it's more that people seem to be surprised by them. I mean...basically everyone throughout human history has committed atrocities. Some worse than others, but they're basically just a fact of human life. Humans are TRIBBLE, and really, nothing is ever going to change that. It's in our nature. I was just thinking about this, actually. In our era, people treat Hitler as the ultimate evil, when really...he was just another of the hundreds of despots we've had. On a bigger scale than most, maybe, but still.
I guess my point is that people seem to put "atrocities" in a different category than everything else. Like that there are "good" people and "evil" people, rather than just evil people who are restrained and evil people who've gotten loose, to varying degrees. But I guess it's an ideological thing.
Why am I doing this so much today? Bad Kestrellius. Off the soapbox.
it was a challenge to create one...it would be the responsibility of whoever took up the challenge to include said warning
that's all assuming, of course, that the challenge was actually real and not the OP's boredom-fueled attempt at causing exactly what's currently occuring
Its also the Responsibilty of Reviewers to review content with respect to its appropriateness for all ages
"You agree to review content in the context of appropriateness for all ages, and for violation of the End User License Agreement (EULA) for author that can be found on the Star Trek Online web site. The other players of the game are relying on your judgment to help identify inappropriate content. " - ( From the Sticky EULA thread )
Well I'm premptively using my judgement to say the mission proposed in this thread is inappropriate.
And as Reviewer you can be damn sure I'll play the mission and review it acordingly in the hope it never gets out of the review stage
These are the Voyages on the STO forum, the final frontier. Our continuing mission: to explore Pretentious Posts, to seek out new Overreactions and Misinformation , to boldly experience Cynicism like no man has before.......
Its also the Responsibilty of Reviewers to review content with respect to its appropriateness for all ages
"You agree to review content in the context of appropriateness for all ages, and for violation of the End User License Agreement (EULA) for author that can be found on the Star Trek Online web site. The other players of the game are relying on your judgment to help identify inappropriate content. " - ( From the Sticky EULA thread )
Well I'm premptively using my judgement to say the mission proposed in this thread is inappropriate.
And as Reviewer you can be damn sure I'll play the mission and review it acordingly in the hope it never gets out of the review stage
*cough*mind game*cough*
that's hardly content appropriate for all ages, since you literally end up being MIND ***** in that mission
A normie goes "Oh, what's this?"
An otaku goes "UwU, what's this?"
A furry goes "OwO, what's this?"
A werewolf goes "Awoo, what's this?"
"It's nothing personal, I just don't feel like I've gotten to know a person until I've sniffed their crotch." "We said 'no' to Mr. Curiosity. We're not home. Curiosity is not welcome, it is not to be invited in. Curiosity...is bad. It gets you in trouble, it gets you killed, and more importantly...it makes you poor!"
Passion and Serenity are one.
I gain power by understanding both.
In the chaos of their battle, I bring order.
I am a shadow, darkness born from light.
The Force is united within me.
Honestly...I find the usual take on atrocities a bit odd. It's like...not that people take them too seriously, exactly...it's more that people seem to be surprised by them. I mean...basically everyone throughout human history has committed atrocities. Some worse than others, but they're basically just a fact of human life. Humans are TRIBBLE, and really, nothing is ever going to change that. It's in our nature. I was just thinking about this, actually. In our era, people treat Hitler as the ultimate evil, when really...he was just another of the hundreds of despots we've had. On a bigger scale than most, maybe, but still.
I guess my point is that people seem to put "atrocities" in a different category than everything else. Like that there are "good" people and "evil" people, rather than just evil people who are restrained and evil people who've gotten loose, to varying degrees. But I guess it's an ideological thing.
Why am I doing this so much today? Bad Kestrellius. Off the soapbox.
I favor a reconstructionist view of the moral commentary thing. Star Trek purports to show a better future where humans are by and large trying their damnedest to grow beyond their inherent tendency to be dicks to each other. They don't always succeed, sometimes they even backslide, but they're trying.
No, we can't ever be perfect. It's impossible as long as there's such a thing as free will, and if you take away free will we're no longer human. But that doesn't mean you shouldn't try. Yes, atrocities have always been a part of our history, but so has self-sacrifice and heroism. There's a story I read once of the Japanese invasion of China before World War II. The Japanese were slaughtering Chinese civilians left and right, so a foreign soldier hung the flag of his country over a Chinese neighborhood and informed the Japanese that the area was under his protection. If they attacked, it would be treated as an act of war. The Japanese stayed away.
The best part? The flag had a swastika on it. That man was an officer of TRIBBLE Germany.
"Great War! / And I cannot take more! / Great tour! / I keep on marching on / I play the great score / There will be no encore / Great War! / The War to End All Wars"
— Sabaton, "Great War"
The best part? The flag had a swastika on it. That man was an officer of TRIBBLE Germany.
and whatever happened to that officer?
did he go on to become a participant in the regime's many atrocities, knowingly or unknowingly, or did he speak out against them/join the german underground/defect/etc.?
A normie goes "Oh, what's this?"
An otaku goes "UwU, what's this?"
A furry goes "OwO, what's this?"
A werewolf goes "Awoo, what's this?"
"It's nothing personal, I just don't feel like I've gotten to know a person until I've sniffed their crotch." "We said 'no' to Mr. Curiosity. We're not home. Curiosity is not welcome, it is not to be invited in. Curiosity...is bad. It gets you in trouble, it gets you killed, and more importantly...it makes you poor!"
Passion and Serenity are one.
I gain power by understanding both.
In the chaos of their battle, I bring order.
I am a shadow, darkness born from light.
The Force is united within me.
that's hardly content appropriate for all ages, since you literally end up being MIND ***** in that mission
Thats the developers prerogative to include that kind of content, Foundry Authors are not granted the same prerogative to do as they please
Also there is a difference between being subjected to an intrusive interogation technique, and having the player commit Genocidal War Crimes.
In the story mission you mention, the Player character is an Armed Combatant, in this proposed mission the Victims are concentration camp detainees who are Civilians, not Military Combatants.
Its not unlike the controversy that surrounded the Airport Massacre level of Modern Warfare 2, that was crossing the line even for a First person shoot em up.
Its fine to shoot Uniformed armed combatants, not fine to shoot civilians like fish in a barrel
These are the Voyages on the STO forum, the final frontier. Our continuing mission: to explore Pretentious Posts, to seek out new Overreactions and Misinformation , to boldly experience Cynicism like no man has before.......
did he go on to become a participant in the regime's many atrocities, knowingly or unknowingly, or did he speak out against them/join the german underground/defect/etc.?
I honestly have no idea.
"Great War! / And I cannot take more! / Great tour! / I keep on marching on / I play the great score / There will be no encore / Great War! / The War to End All Wars"
— Sabaton, "Great War"
the Airport Massacre level of Modern Warfare 2, that was crossing the line even for a First person shoot em up.
Its fine to shoot Uniformed armed combatants, not fine to shoot civilians like fish in a barrel
Hmm, true. Heroism certainly exists too. I guess my point is more that we shouldn't separate atrocities from the rest of the human experience. They're a part of us as much as anything.
Sorry about that, I really should have warned people not to watch it if they hadn't already, its Fictional of course, but provokes a strong empathic reaction, well at least it does in most people, Of course there are some people who get a perverse enjoyment from that part of the game
I think that was part of the controversy about its inclusion, Most people take the oppertunity the game gives you to bypass it.
Though even this level has more justification for exisiting than this mission Idea, They used that mission to demonstrate the serious threat the Sociapathic Terrorists posed and the lengths the CIA would would stoop too to take them down, and of course sets up part of the context for the games later cliffhanger betrayal.
These are the Voyages on the STO forum, the final frontier. Our continuing mission: to explore Pretentious Posts, to seek out new Overreactions and Misinformation , to boldly experience Cynicism like no man has before.......
Its fine to shoot Uniformed armed combatants, not fine to shoot civilians like fish in a barrel
tell that to EA
there's one or two missions in the GLA campaign in C&C: Generals that involve doing just that, and one more that was removed that involved using toxin tractors and destroying chemical storehouses to literally POISON hundreds of civilians in a small city
and the only reason it was removed was because of the political situation at the time of the game's release in 2003...had it not been what it was, that mission WOULD have been included as part of the campaign...and the game is rated T, by the way, same as this one
morality has no basis in video games and it never did
A normie goes "Oh, what's this?"
An otaku goes "UwU, what's this?"
A furry goes "OwO, what's this?"
A werewolf goes "Awoo, what's this?"
"It's nothing personal, I just don't feel like I've gotten to know a person until I've sniffed their crotch." "We said 'no' to Mr. Curiosity. We're not home. Curiosity is not welcome, it is not to be invited in. Curiosity...is bad. It gets you in trouble, it gets you killed, and more importantly...it makes you poor!"
Passion and Serenity are one.
I gain power by understanding both.
In the chaos of their battle, I bring order.
I am a shadow, darkness born from light.
The Force is united within me.
That level of lack of Empathy is symptomatic of the condition, its really very shocking to see someone casually suggesting something along the lines you have
These are the Voyages on the STO forum, the final frontier. Our continuing mission: to explore Pretentious Posts, to seek out new Overreactions and Misinformation , to boldly experience Cynicism like no man has before.......
These are the Voyages on the STO forum, the final frontier. Our continuing mission: to explore Pretentious Posts, to seek out new Overreactions and Misinformation , to boldly experience Cynicism like no man has before.......
Such a mission in game where the player takes part in such monstrosities as torture and mass murder can work, BUT only under one big condition: The whole point of the mission would be to show how monstrous that behaviour is and to condemn it.
Basically a similar premise to 'Mind game'.
I can still understand some might have a problem with that mission and that's why no one is forced to play it.
What Druk is asking for seems to be quite the opposite of 'Mind game', therefore something I'd rather not see in game, despite no one being forced to play it.
That said, I believe (or maybe hope) he isn't serious and this is just trolling in very bad taste. (EDIT: A very successful trolling nonetheless, I just baited myself.)
TOIVA, Toi Vaxx, Toia Vix, Toveg, T'vritha, To Vrax: Bring in the Allegiance class. Toi'Va, Ti'vath, Toivia, Ty'Vris, Tia Vex, Toi'Virth: Add Tier 6 KDF Carrier and Raider. Tae'Va, T'Vaya, To'Var, Tevra, T'Vira, To'Vrak: Give us Asylums for Romulans.
Comments
Perhaps but identifying examples of immoral acts in the game doesn't justify the addition of another.
Unless you or another can provide a clear and undisputed justification for the Proposed mission's content, then it will continue to be met with hostility by the Community
I would think it very clear by now that the vast majority of the vocal foundry Community reject this Idea and are appalled at the foundry being used in such a manner,
This is not going to change short of a monumentally well reasoned justification, and I suspect you don't actually have one, or else it would have been provided by now instead of the clutching at desperately pathetic arguments we have seen so far.
None of us seem to see any artistic, moralistic, or entertainment Value in this idea, and its clearly not about shooting faceless enemies, We could have borg if you want unrestrained Pew pew agaisnt enemies whose deaths have no moral implications
The idea is to execute Concentration camp detainees , specifically this is what its about, and I see no justification to do this, not only that But its Racially motivated, Fantasy or not, this is a genocide fantasy, and it disturbs most rational people to even think about participating in it
Basically, the Foundry mission revolves around some kind of diplomatic incident with the Cardassians, and someone puts forth a holodeck simulation of the events at Gallitep, to prove a point. Not sure who does this, or what the point in question is, but that's the general idea.
...of course, I'm also a borderline insane megalomaniac with no real grasp on the idea of objective morality, so there's that.
There are limitations to what is allowed in game, and obviously the Terms of Service comes into play. That said, there is an easy way to make a mission that goes into the Gallitep incident without violating ToS. There are ways to do it as well. Anyone doing this mission will have to make that decision for themselves.
No I wouldn't support it because that's a REAL LIFE SITUATION. Gallitep is not a real life situation.
Former Community Moderator, Former SSR DJ, Now Full time father to two kids, Husband, Retail Worker.
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A normie goes "Oh, what's this?"
An otaku goes "UwU, what's this?"
A furry goes "OwO, what's this?"
A werewolf goes "Awoo, what's this?"
"It's nothing personal, I just don't feel like I've gotten to know a person until I've sniffed their crotch."
"We said 'no' to Mr. Curiosity. We're not home. Curiosity is not welcome, it is not to be invited in. Curiosity...is bad. It gets you in trouble, it gets you killed, and more importantly...it makes you poor!"
See, now I'm probably going to have to make this mission, because I've just been working with the premise and I've figured out a way to make this work really well. See what you're done, Druk? The dreaded Story Premise Infection has me, and it won't give up.
You're missing the point. How is making a game where you help a TRIBBLE concentration camp exterminate civilians any different from making a game where you help a Cardassian concentration camp exterminate civilians?
They're both works of fiction, and they're both glorifying systematic extermination of civilian populations on racial grounds. The only difference is that one consists of humans and the other of aliens. How is the one any morally different from the other?
Before you answer, consider that Star Trek uses aliens as metaphors for human nature.
— Sabaton, "Great War"
Check out https://unitedfederationofpla.net/s/
No it isn't, Emotional triggers like this kind of scenario can have very real implication for people in the real world
Now its statistically unlikely to happen, but remains entirely possible that a technically well made mission depicting these events could provoke a reaction from an unwitting player who stumbles into the mission.
This is a responsibility that developers have to think about when making video games that involve this kind of content. Part of the very important function of Age restrictions and ratings.
STO is rated Teen, , The events at this concentration camp has references to extreme sexual abuse, torture and being burried alive , which really is not suitable for age 13 and up is it?
Of course one could edit that out of the scenario to make it more acceptable, but this was all part of this camps story line, lets not forget that shall we?
It would be Insensitive to produce such material and possibly immoral to do so knowing it could provoke a reaction.
#LegalizeAwoo
A normie goes "Oh, what's this?"
An otaku goes "UwU, what's this?"
A furry goes "OwO, what's this?"
A werewolf goes "Awoo, what's this?"
"It's nothing personal, I just don't feel like I've gotten to know a person until I've sniffed their crotch."
"We said 'no' to Mr. Curiosity. We're not home. Curiosity is not welcome, it is not to be invited in. Curiosity...is bad. It gets you in trouble, it gets you killed, and more importantly...it makes you poor!"
This I feel is a very important part of the whole debate
Which, IMO, is a rather selfish and arrogant thing to do. But then, I don't believe in the concept of fiction as fiction, but rather as a universe existing for its own sake. It just...it strikes me as narcissistic to create a fictional universe...where humans are the most unique and special out of all the many species, and even the alien species exist solely to comment on us. People say that the best science fiction uses its setting as a commentary on the human condition, but I disagree. The best science fiction creates a universe, and populates it, with as much originality as is possible. Creating a universe simply to exploit it for our own interests is...dubious. Using echoes of our own universe in order to establish credibility? Sure. But don't think you're being sophisticated and clever by reskinning human events to make a point, rather than creating a proper universe that can stand on its own.
After all, fiction is how universes propagate themselves, in my belief. It's best to create universes different from our own in order to promote diversity. Of course, universes don't really seem to compete with one another, so diversity may be a bit pointless compared to the way it is in genetics. Nonetheless, though...
Of course I could be completely wrong about how realities reproduce. It could be Sburb.
(Rant over. Sorry guys. I just...I honestly don't much like the Trekkian approach to constructed worlds.)
All well and good, but considering we are talking about a hypothetical mission, I don't know if the sociopathic fantasy Mission has a warning do I
that's all assuming, of course, that the challenge was actually real and not the OP's boredom-fueled attempt at causing exactly what's currently occuring
#LegalizeAwoo
A normie goes "Oh, what's this?"
An otaku goes "UwU, what's this?"
A furry goes "OwO, what's this?"
A werewolf goes "Awoo, what's this?"
"It's nothing personal, I just don't feel like I've gotten to know a person until I've sniffed their crotch."
"We said 'no' to Mr. Curiosity. We're not home. Curiosity is not welcome, it is not to be invited in. Curiosity...is bad. It gets you in trouble, it gets you killed, and more importantly...it makes you poor!"
As I said before, Star Trek is part Sci Fi, part Moral Fable hiding in a Sci Fi
Pure Sci Fi may well make its own world for a whole range of reasons, Star Trek is not Pure Sci Fi
This is honestly a terrible argument. Star Trek has always been about addressing real things through a thinly veiled costuming in a SF setting. We are trained to see through the veneer to interpret what it's saying about real life stuff.
It's why everyone in these threads instantly said, "You mean the concentration camp guy in that Holocaust episode??? WTF."
I guess my point is that people seem to put "atrocities" in a different category than everything else. Like that there are "good" people and "evil" people, rather than just evil people who are restrained and evil people who've gotten loose, to varying degrees. But I guess it's an ideological thing.
Why am I doing this so much today? Bad Kestrellius. Off the soapbox.
Its also the Responsibilty of Reviewers to review content with respect to its appropriateness for all ages
"You agree to review content in the context of appropriateness for all ages, and for violation of the End User License Agreement (EULA) for author that can be found on the Star Trek Online web site. The other players of the game are relying on your judgment to help identify inappropriate content. " - ( From the Sticky EULA thread )
Well I'm premptively using my judgement to say the mission proposed in this thread is inappropriate.
And as Reviewer you can be damn sure I'll play the mission and review it acordingly in the hope it never gets out of the review stage
that's hardly content appropriate for all ages, since you literally end up being MIND ***** in that mission
#LegalizeAwoo
A normie goes "Oh, what's this?"
An otaku goes "UwU, what's this?"
A furry goes "OwO, what's this?"
A werewolf goes "Awoo, what's this?"
"It's nothing personal, I just don't feel like I've gotten to know a person until I've sniffed their crotch."
"We said 'no' to Mr. Curiosity. We're not home. Curiosity is not welcome, it is not to be invited in. Curiosity...is bad. It gets you in trouble, it gets you killed, and more importantly...it makes you poor!"
No, we can't ever be perfect. It's impossible as long as there's such a thing as free will, and if you take away free will we're no longer human. But that doesn't mean you shouldn't try. Yes, atrocities have always been a part of our history, but so has self-sacrifice and heroism. There's a story I read once of the Japanese invasion of China before World War II. The Japanese were slaughtering Chinese civilians left and right, so a foreign soldier hung the flag of his country over a Chinese neighborhood and informed the Japanese that the area was under his protection. If they attacked, it would be treated as an act of war. The Japanese stayed away.
The best part? The flag had a swastika on it. That man was an officer of TRIBBLE Germany.
— Sabaton, "Great War"
Check out https://unitedfederationofpla.net/s/
did he go on to become a participant in the regime's many atrocities, knowingly or unknowingly, or did he speak out against them/join the german underground/defect/etc.?
#LegalizeAwoo
A normie goes "Oh, what's this?"
An otaku goes "UwU, what's this?"
A furry goes "OwO, what's this?"
A werewolf goes "Awoo, what's this?"
"It's nothing personal, I just don't feel like I've gotten to know a person until I've sniffed their crotch."
"We said 'no' to Mr. Curiosity. We're not home. Curiosity is not welcome, it is not to be invited in. Curiosity...is bad. It gets you in trouble, it gets you killed, and more importantly...it makes you poor!"
Thats the developers prerogative to include that kind of content, Foundry Authors are not granted the same prerogative to do as they please
Also there is a difference between being subjected to an intrusive interogation technique, and having the player commit Genocidal War Crimes.
In the story mission you mention, the Player character is an Armed Combatant, in this proposed mission the Victims are concentration camp detainees who are Civilians, not Military Combatants.
Its not unlike the controversy that surrounded the Airport Massacre level of Modern Warfare 2, that was crossing the line even for a First person shoot em up.
Its fine to shoot Uniformed armed combatants, not fine to shoot civilians like fish in a barrel
I honestly have no idea.
— Sabaton, "Great War"
Check out https://unitedfederationofpla.net/s/
I just looked that up on Youtube and I feel sick.
Sorry about that, I really should have warned people not to watch it if they hadn't already, its Fictional of course, but provokes a strong empathic reaction, well at least it does in most people, Of course there are some people who get a perverse enjoyment from that part of the game
I think that was part of the controversy about its inclusion, Most people take the oppertunity the game gives you to bypass it.
Though even this level has more justification for exisiting than this mission Idea, They used that mission to demonstrate the serious threat the Sociapathic Terrorists posed and the lengths the CIA would would stoop too to take them down, and of course sets up part of the context for the games later cliffhanger betrayal.
there's one or two missions in the GLA campaign in C&C: Generals that involve doing just that, and one more that was removed that involved using toxin tractors and destroying chemical storehouses to literally POISON hundreds of civilians in a small city
and the only reason it was removed was because of the political situation at the time of the game's release in 2003...had it not been what it was, that mission WOULD have been included as part of the campaign...and the game is rated T, by the way, same as this one
morality has no basis in video games and it never did
#LegalizeAwoo
A normie goes "Oh, what's this?"
An otaku goes "UwU, what's this?"
A furry goes "OwO, what's this?"
A werewolf goes "Awoo, what's this?"
"It's nothing personal, I just don't feel like I've gotten to know a person until I've sniffed their crotch."
"We said 'no' to Mr. Curiosity. We're not home. Curiosity is not welcome, it is not to be invited in. Curiosity...is bad. It gets you in trouble, it gets you killed, and more importantly...it makes you poor!"
That level of lack of Empathy is symptomatic of the condition, its really very shocking to see someone casually suggesting something along the lines you have
Basically a similar premise to 'Mind game'.
I can still understand some might have a problem with that mission and that's why no one is forced to play it.
What Druk is asking for seems to be quite the opposite of 'Mind game', therefore something I'd rather not see in game, despite no one being forced to play it.
That said, I believe (or maybe hope) he isn't serious and this is just trolling in very bad taste. (EDIT: A very successful trolling nonetheless, I just baited myself.)
Toi'Va, Ti'vath, Toivia, Ty'Vris, Tia Vex, Toi'Virth: Add Tier 6 KDF Carrier and Raider.
Tae'Va, T'Vaya, To'Var, Tevra, T'Vira, To'Vrak: Give us Asylums for Romulans.
Don't make ARC mandatory! Keep it optional only!