"Yes, it's the same situation before you say it's not. You're still killing people. Plasma fires are probably a very bad way to go. Course so is probably suffocating in space due to hull breaches... anywho I digress"
Askray,
It IS 2 different things.
Once the OP crosses the line to asking for and saying that the Player MUST be involved in committing War Crimes, it becomes a very different thing.
The mission Divide et Impera orders the player to murder groups of Romulans scientists who are pleading for their lives even after it has become blatantly obvious that the Admiral ordering you to do it must be an Undine. You're not given a choice in this. There are no alternate ways to play it.
The mission The New Link requires you to destroy a Jem'Hadar hatchery full of eggs. Little baby Jem'Hadar eggs. You plant explosives on it and blow it the heck up.
These are things a Federation captain does in the Fed story arc produced by Cryptic for STO. And there's no morality play in either of those missions. At no point are you told to look at what you've done and think about it. There are never any consequences.
The mission Divide et Impera orders the player to murder groups of Romulans scientists who are pleading for their lives even after it has become blatantly obvious that the Admiral ordering you to do it must be an Undine. You're not given a choice in this. There are no alternate ways to play it.
The mission The New Link requires you to destroy a Jem'Hadar hatchery full of eggs. Little baby Jem'Hadar eggs. You plant explosives on it and blow it the heck up.
These are things a Federation captain does in the Fed story arc produced by Cryptic for STO. And there's no morality play in either of those missions. At no point are you told to look at what you've done and think about it. There are never any consequences.
So, because Cryptic did it, we should automatically just let this have a pass?
Nope. Not buying that line of thinking.
You've named two of Cryptics worst mistakes. Not that this makes any difference really, but even they (Cryptic) have admitted how bad Divide At Impera is.
The community has taken it upon itself to create not just 1 , but at least 2 missions that deal with the fallout from that mission. One has made it to being a spotlight.
Basically, just because it exists from Cryptic doesn't mean we should silently let something like this slide.
The mission Divide et Impera orders the player to murder groups of Romulans scientists who are pleading for their lives even after it has become blatantly obvious that the Admiral ordering you to do it must be an Undine. You're not given a choice in this. There are no alternate ways to play it.
The mission The New Link requires you to destroy a Jem'Hadar hatchery full of eggs. Little baby Jem'Hadar eggs. You plant explosives on it and blow it the heck up.
These are things a Federation captain does in the Fed story arc produced by Cryptic for STO. And there's no morality play in either of those missions. At no point are you told to look at what you've done and think about it. There are never any consequences.
And find me people who like the actions in those missions.
Guess what. There was actually a spotlight foundry mission made to deal with the atrocity that is Divide Et Impera. No one is defending those story missions.
The mission Divide et Impera orders the player to murder groups of Romulans scientists who are pleading for their lives even after it has become blatantly obvious that the Admiral ordering you to do it must be an Undine. You're not given a choice in this. There are no alternate ways to play it.
The mission The New Link requires you to destroy a Jem'Hadar hatchery full of eggs. Little baby Jem'Hadar eggs. You plant explosives on it and blow it the heck up.
These are things a Federation captain does in the Fed story arc produced by Cryptic for STO. And there's no morality play in either of those missions. At no point are you told to look at what you've done and think about it. There are never any consequences.
Both of those missions need to be changed - Cryptic got the tone wrong. It is very unfortunate that they have not done so yet.
Been finding this thread.... "Interesting", to quote a phrase.
Can I ask the OP something, because I'm wondering if you're talking at cross-purposes? Is the plot you have in mind:
A) Gul Darhe'el (if you like him so much at least give the poor guy his apostrophe :rolleyes: ) didn't actually do the things the Bajorans said he did, and he blew up the reactor as a last resort to prevent them doing something dastardly, or
Gul Darhe'el did do all those things and you want a mission that makes that look impressive?
If A), then it might be a slightly awkward thing to do canon-wise - you're maybe not actually contradicting the series, but you are unequivocally "revealing" something important that the series never established, and in fact let it be assumed it was the other way. But still, OK. If we were that dainty about canon nothing would ever get written.
If , then as far as I'm concerned, go climb a tree. Yes, I know there are those DOff missions. I didn't put 'em there. If you want such a mission, you can write it yourself: that's fair. And if it lands outside the T&C I can report it; that's fair too.
All right, in terms Druk would understand: If somebody writes a mission showing how Gul Darhe'el did NOT torture and randomly murder prisoners at Gallitep... would they get the 100,000,000 EC?
My thoughts: Darhe'el was hated so thoroughly that even some of the other Cardassians(such as Aamin Marritza) wanted to see him prosecuted for war crimes.
The Cardassians didn't see him as a hero. He was just one of many guys oppressing Bajorans.
Truthfully I can't think of any angle to do this piece by that would be tolerable. Acting on Darhe'el's behalf is unconscionable, Marritza's side is little more than spectating. Hmm... Maybe the Bajoran side?
There is one scene I'd like to see, but the foundry lacks the tools to do it right... I would love to see the looks on Dukat and Darhe'el's faces when they got word of the revolt at Gallitep during Darhe'el's award ceremony. hehehe
I have two personal opinions about this thread. Nobody try to argue me out of them, because you can't.
#1. You can't stop someone from posting about wanting a pro-Cardassian mission. But you can choose to not respond to it and let it die naturally. Personally, I'd have let it die. It is distasteful at best. And it is clearly causing what I might refer to as a 'forum disturbance'. But I don't overrule other mods and I will let Askray make the decision about whether to leave this open or not.
#2. I tend to agree with the posters who would consider this 'inappropriate' content if it were made into a Foundry mission. I would probably not choose to play it at all, even to review it. I would ten times rather play as one of the Bajoran resistance than as a Cardassian soldier at a labor camp practicing genocide, but even then I'd only play if forced to. Which nobody can force me to do anyway.
That said, I have not read the entire thread and I'm not replying to this thread any further. I will moderate any specific posts that are reported to me for violating forum rules.
My views may not represent those of Cryptic Studios or Perfect World Entertainment. You can file a "forums and website" support ticket here Link: How to PM - Twitter @STOMod_Bluegeek
Actually I have said I was considering the offer. Although probably not quite in the way Druk meant. Just pointing that out.
Anyway, I do think you guys are overreacting, probably because Druk is acting really strangely about this. I think it might have been received better had it been phrased differently.
In any case, I think I'm going to take your challenge, Druk. I'm going to create a Foundry mission concerning the events of the Gallitep uprising. It's not going to be Cardassian propaganda, though. Not exactly. But it will be good, and it won't be a one-sided thing.
I should note that we only have a couple sources on what happened at Gallitep. One of them was a former terrorist, who...wasn't exactly known for her objectivity, and the other was a Cardassian so consumed by guilt that he may not have been sane at all. Granted, it's pretty clear that a lot of brutality took place in that camp, but Kira's description may not have been entirely accurate.
Actually I have a couple ideas here. One of them involves a holodeck framing device, and an examination of the issue that attempts to portray both sides. The other is a bit more what Druk was thinking, I think, just looking at the idea of the frequently relative nature of morality -- these people really thought that they were doing the right thing, and is our version of morality really much better? (Probably, yes. But it's worth asking.) I think I'll do the first one, but maybe incorporate the second one a bit too.
Of course I'm not making any promises. I may not get around to this at all.
Wow, what happened here guys? I'm curious as to what got wiped, we've already got into double pages since then when the one I replied to was on page one! I now feel compelled to clarify a position that I've no idea whether or not it was taken in the manner in which I made it. I know I really should just walk away but...
Okay, here's how I envisioned it. A mission that was so utterly obvious propaganda it was comical. An example would be from a series on Radio Ulster about the working of the Northern Ireland government when the Unionist and Republican ministers were asked for their versions of the troubles, which were along the lines of "Long ago we lived in a Protestant paradise, where happy everyone was happy and content and protestant troops were cheered on by happy Catholics, though I'm not sure how you can be a happy Catholic but each to his own. But then the Pope invented the IRA..." - well, you get the idea. Unfortunately that isn't available online but this is: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bf95P2DJC6E Another example might be The Great Dictator in a way.
Satire is an excellent way to combat the most serious of issue and the issue is more relevant today than ever. Wars are fought in public opinion and there are no end of individuals and groups who seek to photoshop their reputation on all sides of our current conflicts. This is exactly the sort of thing that should be tackled.
I seriously doubt our OP here has motivation to clear the name of a fictional historic (future) Cardassian's reputation. Are we really saying this is serious? I doubt we'd have a mission where you'd be actively committing genocide or other atrocities - the idea is that it is clearing his name, not incriminating him! I think what we have here is a proposal not being entirely clear and presented in the wrong tone, being taken seriously out of its context and people getting very emotional and finding it hard to climb down. Perhaps this would be a good time for people to start producing Bajoran resistance missions?
Edit: Though I would like to distance myself from the ill thought out replies of the OP... I think the Cardassian RP needs to end about 5 miles back.
Ok so this was supposed to be in-series a call-out to the real-world concentration camps and other atrocities committed during WW2. It was a way to deal with the issue in a sensitive manner and to draw parallels between the Cardies and TRIBBLE Germany. This is the kind of story Star Trek (as a TV program) excelled at telling.
A mission where the entire point is to round up and kill innocent people for a prize is against EVERYTHING Star Trek stands for. Star Trek is about improving the human condition and showing a better future. One in which we put things like this behind us. One in which we look at our past and say "never again." All while every color, shape, creed and orientation of humanity works together.
Frankly, this idea disgusts me and to be honest I feel even discussing it further violates the Terms Of Service for the game if not the very TOS that PW is built upon.
Where does it end? Next it is ok to discriminate against all the blue aliens because they are different? Hey it's ok it's JUST A GAME and look: Prizes! Why not make a foundry mission where all you do is punch characters of the opposite gender. It's just a game.
Not trolling here... I honestly want an answer from a PW rep on that. If it is ok to create a concentration-camp slaughter-fest where does it end?
I think that possibly isn't what the OP had in mind. I think he possibly had in mind a mission where it turned out that Gul Darhe'el actually hadn't done what the Bajorans said he did. Either that, or he's just trying to be difficult... and the lack of straight answers out of him rather suggests that.
I don't know if you know this or not, but in this game you are encouraged to buy and sell slaves, do medical experiments on prisoners of war, and suppress the uprisings of people yearning to be free.
To pretend that this foundry competition crosses some new line is to tell a lie.
So, because Cryptic did it first, that makes it automatically okay?
"Great War! / And I cannot take more! / Great tour! / I keep on marching on / I play the great score / There will be no encore / Great War! / The War to End All Wars"
— Sabaton, "Great War"
I don't know if you know this or not, but in this game you are encouraged to buy and sell slaves, do medical experiments on prisoners of war, and suppress the uprisings of people yearning to be free.
To pretend that this foundry competition crosses some new line is to tell a lie.
No, I'm not.
As I've said before, part of being able to differentiate between fantasy and reality is being able to understand and accept that fantasy doesn't have moral implications. Only real things have moral implications.
If people can't make that distinction, all the fault is with them, for not having a healthy boundary between fantasy and reality.
You sure you are not? These quotes seem to suggest otherwise. Let's see. You clearly HATE Bajorans. You hate something which does not exist so much that it clearly is affecting you. You are obviously having trouble differentiating between fantasy and reality. If you could, you would not be angered by the Bajoran species in Trek.
Comments
The mission Divide et Impera orders the player to murder groups of Romulans scientists who are pleading for their lives even after it has become blatantly obvious that the Admiral ordering you to do it must be an Undine. You're not given a choice in this. There are no alternate ways to play it.
The mission The New Link requires you to destroy a Jem'Hadar hatchery full of eggs. Little baby Jem'Hadar eggs. You plant explosives on it and blow it the heck up.
These are things a Federation captain does in the Fed story arc produced by Cryptic for STO. And there's no morality play in either of those missions. At no point are you told to look at what you've done and think about it. There are never any consequences.
If there is any.....:rolleyes:
i doubt they would dare show their face on the forums....they'd be ripped apart
So, because Cryptic did it, we should automatically just let this have a pass?
Nope. Not buying that line of thinking.
You've named two of Cryptics worst mistakes. Not that this makes any difference really, but even they (Cryptic) have admitted how bad Divide At Impera is.
The community has taken it upon itself to create not just 1 , but at least 2 missions that deal with the fallout from that mission. One has made it to being a spotlight.
Basically, just because it exists from Cryptic doesn't mean we should silently let something like this slide.
And find me people who like the actions in those missions.
Guess what. There was actually a spotlight foundry mission made to deal with the atrocity that is Divide Et Impera. No one is defending those story missions.
Both of those missions need to be changed - Cryptic got the tone wrong. It is very unfortunate that they have not done so yet.
They will probably remove the Rommy one come the remakes of the story arcs.
Can I ask the OP something, because I'm wondering if you're talking at cross-purposes? Is the plot you have in mind:
A) Gul Darhe'el (if you like him so much at least give the poor guy his apostrophe :rolleyes: ) didn't actually do the things the Bajorans said he did, and he blew up the reactor as a last resort to prevent them doing something dastardly, or
If A), then it might be a slightly awkward thing to do canon-wise - you're maybe not actually contradicting the series, but you are unequivocally "revealing" something important that the series never established, and in fact let it be assumed it was the other way. But still, OK. If we were that dainty about canon nothing would ever get written.
If
All right, in terms Druk would understand: If somebody writes a mission showing how Gul Darhe'el did NOT torture and randomly murder prisoners at Gallitep... would they get the 100,000,000 EC?
The Cardassians didn't see him as a hero. He was just one of many guys oppressing Bajorans.
Truthfully I can't think of any angle to do this piece by that would be tolerable. Acting on Darhe'el's behalf is unconscionable, Marritza's side is little more than spectating. Hmm... Maybe the Bajoran side?
There is one scene I'd like to see, but the foundry lacks the tools to do it right... I would love to see the looks on Dukat and Darhe'el's faces when they got word of the revolt at Gallitep during Darhe'el's award ceremony. hehehe
My character Tsin'xing
#1. You can't stop someone from posting about wanting a pro-Cardassian mission. But you can choose to not respond to it and let it die naturally. Personally, I'd have let it die. It is distasteful at best. And it is clearly causing what I might refer to as a 'forum disturbance'. But I don't overrule other mods and I will let Askray make the decision about whether to leave this open or not.
#2. I tend to agree with the posters who would consider this 'inappropriate' content if it were made into a Foundry mission. I would probably not choose to play it at all, even to review it. I would ten times rather play as one of the Bajoran resistance than as a Cardassian soldier at a labor camp practicing genocide, but even then I'd only play if forced to. Which nobody can force me to do anyway.
That said, I have not read the entire thread and I'm not replying to this thread any further. I will moderate any specific posts that are reported to me for violating forum rules.
Link: How to PM - Twitter @STOMod_Bluegeek
Actually I have said I was considering the offer. Although probably not quite in the way Druk meant. Just pointing that out.
Anyway, I do think you guys are overreacting, probably because Druk is acting really strangely about this. I think it might have been received better had it been phrased differently.
In any case, I think I'm going to take your challenge, Druk. I'm going to create a Foundry mission concerning the events of the Gallitep uprising. It's not going to be Cardassian propaganda, though. Not exactly. But it will be good, and it won't be a one-sided thing.
I should note that we only have a couple sources on what happened at Gallitep. One of them was a former terrorist, who...wasn't exactly known for her objectivity, and the other was a Cardassian so consumed by guilt that he may not have been sane at all. Granted, it's pretty clear that a lot of brutality took place in that camp, but Kira's description may not have been entirely accurate.
Actually I have a couple ideas here. One of them involves a holodeck framing device, and an examination of the issue that attempts to portray both sides. The other is a bit more what Druk was thinking, I think, just looking at the idea of the frequently relative nature of morality -- these people really thought that they were doing the right thing, and is our version of morality really much better? (Probably, yes. But it's worth asking.) I think I'll do the first one, but maybe incorporate the second one a bit too.
Of course I'm not making any promises. I may not get around to this at all.
Okay, here's how I envisioned it. A mission that was so utterly obvious propaganda it was comical. An example would be from a series on Radio Ulster about the working of the Northern Ireland government when the Unionist and Republican ministers were asked for their versions of the troubles, which were along the lines of "Long ago we lived in a Protestant paradise, where happy everyone was happy and content and protestant troops were cheered on by happy Catholics, though I'm not sure how you can be a happy Catholic but each to his own. But then the Pope invented the IRA..." - well, you get the idea. Unfortunately that isn't available online but this is: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bf95P2DJC6E Another example might be The Great Dictator in a way.
Satire is an excellent way to combat the most serious of issue and the issue is more relevant today than ever. Wars are fought in public opinion and there are no end of individuals and groups who seek to photoshop their reputation on all sides of our current conflicts. This is exactly the sort of thing that should be tackled.
I seriously doubt our OP here has motivation to clear the name of a fictional historic (future) Cardassian's reputation. Are we really saying this is serious? I doubt we'd have a mission where you'd be actively committing genocide or other atrocities - the idea is that it is clearing his name, not incriminating him! I think what we have here is a proposal not being entirely clear and presented in the wrong tone, being taken seriously out of its context and people getting very emotional and finding it hard to climb down. Perhaps this would be a good time for people to start producing Bajoran resistance missions?
Edit: Though I would like to distance myself from the ill thought out replies of the OP... I think the Cardassian RP needs to end about 5 miles back.
A mission where the entire point is to round up and kill innocent people for a prize is against EVERYTHING Star Trek stands for. Star Trek is about improving the human condition and showing a better future. One in which we put things like this behind us. One in which we look at our past and say "never again." All while every color, shape, creed and orientation of humanity works together.
Frankly, this idea disgusts me and to be honest I feel even discussing it further violates the Terms Of Service for the game if not the very TOS that PW is built upon.
Where does it end? Next it is ok to discriminate against all the blue aliens because they are different? Hey it's ok it's JUST A GAME and look: Prizes! Why not make a foundry mission where all you do is punch characters of the opposite gender. It's just a game.
Not trolling here... I honestly want an answer from a PW rep on that. If it is ok to create a concentration-camp slaughter-fest where does it end?
The OP hates a species so much he wants to have his idea made just so he can play it over and over to satisfy his sick fantasy of murdering countless.
If someone cannot see how sick and twisted this is, well then, I do not know what to say to you.
So, because Cryptic did it first, that makes it automatically okay?
— Sabaton, "Great War"
Check out https://unitedfederationofpla.net/s/
You are a very disturbing individual.
You sure you are not? These quotes seem to suggest otherwise. Let's see. You clearly HATE Bajorans. You hate something which does not exist so much that it clearly is affecting you. You are obviously having trouble differentiating between fantasy and reality. If you could, you would not be angered by the Bajoran species in Trek.
Contradictory indeed.