Someone is having selective memory here, and it isn't me. Romulans by no stretch of the imagination were 'good guys' In the majority of their appearances. Heck, even when they were 'nice' they were almost always antagonists in the episode, and were consistently hostile and aggressive towards the Federation and the Klingons. It would take a blind person to not see how Legacy of Romulus undermines that.
The 'Balance of Terror' commander is an outlier. Even the Romulans in 'Enterprise' shared little resemblance to the TOS Romulans. Like the Klingons, the Romulans were completely redesigned for the TNG era. If we were playing a TOS-era MMO this wouldn't be a problem, but this game is post TNG, and as such it's a Little tonally anachronistic, particularly when pre-LoR the Romulans fit into the TNG-onwards vein rather nicely.
Cardassians, like Romulans were iconic as antagonists, and while 'nicer' Romulans and Cardassians help spice it all up, there's a certain expectation that any playable Romulan/Cardassian faction carry over a little of what made them so popular as antagonists, particularly when every other trek game to date with playable Cardassian/Romulan factions I can think of had them in antagonistic roles.
Like it or not, it's not unreasonable to expect playable Romulans and Cardassians to be 'darker' than the Federation. It's a basic expectation in regards to playable Romulans and Cardassians, and has been for quite some time in games.
Cryptic obviously can't be trusted to deliver on that basic expectation reliably, so I'm not in any rush to have a Cardassian faction.
Hey we Romulans aren't evil.....apparently everyone forgot the sacrifice of so many to help the Enterprise against Shinzon....
We have coups, we have illegal ale, we have traitors and people escaping with other romulans helping that cause....grr
But on the side note...please don't do Cardassians
its bad enough we Romulans are subjugated to even less forethought than the Klingons
(perfect example....Hey they want a science vessel....ok give them a TACTICAL Warbird, that should fix the issue)
would you want your kids their kids and your whole race marked with genocide??? thats whole point of why they helped they wanted the Federation conquered not destroyed
As far as Cardassians go, I would say if Cryptic was to do anything with them as far as making them playable, more likely than not, it would be adding them as a lock box species. I can't see them as a selectable species for the Federation considering they are not a Federation member, same with KDF or Romulan Republic, they belong to themselves.
As far as making them a fully, fleshed out faction like the Federation or KDF, nope, never going to happen. If it was, it would have been the Romulan Republic and they are more of a sub faction. The Cardassians would be a sub faction too, and because they would have an identical story line as the RR it would hardly be worth the effort to make
Another reason I expect Cardassians will never get a faction is the clothing issue. Cardassians have rather...wide necks that would basically mean that they wouldn't be able to use any of the existing uniform tops, and somehow I doubt Cryptic would be willing to rework many crossfaction uniform/off duty clothing sets like the Romulan ambassador or Dyson uniforms to accommodate Cardassian necks. There are still some glaring problems in many existing uniforms that have been halfheartedly/never addressed. I just don't see them working so hard to make it work....well perhaps if they scrapped that whole "Different uniforms for fed aligned and KDF aligned" paradigm they adopted for the Romulans they could divert resources for that, but I just don't see it happening any time soon.
would you want your kids their kids and your whole race marked with genocide??? thats whole point of why they helped they wanted the Federation conquered not destroyed
The mark of truly great people, good people conquer for the sake of their children, bad people destroy for the sake of ....well because it moved the line on the map a direction they approved of :P
The mark of truly great people, good people conquer for the sake of their children, bad people destroy for the sake of ....well because it moved the line on the map a direction they approved of :P
say that when you are in a romluan slave camp face it romulan want to rule you or have nothing to do with you until they can come up with a plan to rule you
And about playing as evil ... funny thing is nobody is going allow that, at least anyone with experience, its nothing but a free pass to behave like a sociopath ... and some people dont even need that, its not allowed because its nothing but allowing disruptive behavior with a excuse "I am roleplaying" and spare me of the "I can play a evil character" because moment you ask to play as one, you really to be disruptive otherwise you would even ask.
Swtor allows it, and Sith is the more popular faction. EQ Next is going let you chose how your character acts and you can be evil.
"Balance of Power" shown a Commander following orders he disagreed with ... he followed then but thats the point, he was a being with a conscience.
Now you being post TNG ... well thing is, Voyager had Romulans and you could say "Message in a Bottle" but I will say "Eye of the Needle" that sinks your entire case, plus we have "Nemesis" were Donatra shown exactly how "evil" she was ... you know, by siding with Picard and fighting the Scimitar because she didnt want for the Genocide of Earth to happen.
The Romulan Star Empire was a aggressive expansionist nation but you cannot reduce every single Romulan to that, its reducing then to a caricature ... would you like for people to reduce you as a caricature of your country?
This is my points, Romulans are not inherit evil because they are Romulans, this is racist ... sure its against a imaginary race but still RACIST.
And about playing as evil ... funny thing is nobody is going allow that, at least anyone with experience, its nothing but a free pass to behave like a sociopath ... and some people dont even need that, its not allowed because its nothing but allowing disruptive behavior with a excuse "I am roleplaying" and spare me of the "I can play a evil character" because moment you ask to play as one, you really to be disruptive otherwise you would even ask.
You are delusional if you think cherry picking out the odd 'nice' Romulan 'sinks' my case. Any number of 'bad' Romulans, named and unnamed can be trotted out as counterexamples for the few good ones. Tomalak, Sela, Taris, Vreenak, etc etc.
I didn't claim every Romulan was an unthinking evil drone, and if you read my reply, you'd realize that. Romulans come in various shades of grey, even 'evil' ones like Tomalak have a conscience, despite his hatred of Picard, and of course there is Toreth. Trying to strawman me into a racist by putting words into my mouth doesn't change the fact that like the Klingons, they had their own cultural trends which were very well established over the course of the various series.
Obviously you have never played as KDF if you think 'nobody is going to allow' playing a 'bad guy faction, because that includes torture, slavery, murder, etc on prisoners of war and civilians. And of Course as I said before every other Trek game with playable Romulans or Cardassians up to this point has consistently had them present as antagonists. It's really shameless to plug your ears and pretend that there isn't a precedent for these things. As well as incredibly dishonest to paint everyone who wants to play Romulans/Cardassians like they usually were depicted on the show as having sociopathic tendencies.
Back on topic Do I want to play as a Cardassian? Absolutely Do I think Cryptic would do them Justice? No Do I think Cryptic will make a Cardassian faction? Not in the near future
Thing is, I keep hearing around the forums that it was CBS that gave the axe to a true Bad Guy Faction.
The reason I remember, from an audio interview with a member of the Cryptic crew-was that they thought a 'bad guy' faction wouldn't sell as well as a 'good guy' faction, so they based the Romulans heavily off of the Bajoran Resistance, Rebel Alliance, and the Rihannsu novels, as opposed to the shows. This makes more sense to me at least-considering CBS already must have given them the OK to make bad guy factions in the past, judging by the things that players can get away with as KDF.
I've seen more mention of the Jem Hadar and Vorta (as one would no doubt suspect) and then others that have said it wouldn't work. I would remind everyone here that I'd imagine (wrongly or rightly) that a fair number of people would cherish the opportunity to play as a Jem Hadar or Vorta, but we know we can't have a Dominion faction (them being evil and all). Surely the next (and only) logical step is to include renegade Jem Hadar and Vorta for player use, whether that's in existing factions, or just a (potential) Cardassian one. No? If no, feel free to give a valuable reason why.
Furthermore, and to share my two cents regarding good Romulans vs bad Romulans; I don't think the Romulans (as a species) are one or the other. They're like us. To this day you get good people, bad people, and power hungry or corrupt governments. The Romulan Senate was xenophobic and didn't trust other species, most of the commanders we met were simply following orders (like how a soldier now might have to bomb a town he doesn't want to; he does so because he's signed up). If we dove into the Romulan Public, I think we'd have easily seen a different side to them, so no, they're not evil, it's just we've not had the best of encounters with them.
NEITHER have been linked to the Romulans, Suliban in STO are STILL in a Helix and dont seen to have any kind of changes from Enterprise days.
Okay, lets first address the Suliban. Are you saying that it is your belief that all the Suliban in the entire galaxy are situated in that ONE Helix?
That's a bit like traveling to the Amazon (if you were an alien from space), locating a tribe of people, and wrongly assuming that they are what all of humanity is like. You'd be wrong. It is true that we've not had any other Suliban encounters, doesn't mean to say there isn't a functioning Suliban government out there somewhere though, and those in the Helix simply wish to live a different kind of life.
And possibly an alien generator. No Dominion BS. That was just one time in the Cardies' history that they wanna forget(other than the True Way)
most of those were one timers and the last two were traders, not fighters. and dominion allies dont make any sense to a cardassian playable side, never has.
T6 Miranda Hero Ship FTW. Been around since Dec 2010 on STO and bought LTS in Apr 2013 for STO.
most of those were one timers and the last two were traders, not fighters. and dominion allies dont make any sense to a cardassian playable side, never has.
Frankly that's not much different to a lot of existing playable species. Good examples are the Gorn and Letheans - popular in-game but with a grand total of 2 episodes apiece.
The big problem I can see with Jem'hadar is that Cardassia is barely a generation away from the Dominion's attempt at genocide, carried out by the Jem'Hadar. I can't see the mainstream Cardassian forces being willing to accept those renegades - they'd be much more likely to find acceptance in the Federation (on general principles) or the Klingon Empire (for respect as warriors).
The individuals were traders. The fact is, they're still close allies to the Cardies. Also, who says they have to be fighters to be in STO?
At first I was like ... but then you saved it with ...
...oh wait, Cryptic does. :rolleyes: good point, I guess.
Though I am curious to consider the addition of Xindi races in the future (not aquatic, I won't open that can of worms). I know you can make them as generic aliens right now. But the same with cardassians, having playable Xindi as fully recognized Xindi ... adds depth.
And the question of which faction they may lean toward or half faction or multiple semi factions?
Hmmmm.
And that gets me thinking about how a lot of those races mentioned, even the traders/merchants could get added in too.
most of those were one timers and the last two were traders, not fighters. and dominion allies dont make any sense to a cardassian playable side, never has.
Nobody ever said such allies would make sense. :P FED players have Paradan Doffs, KDF players have Wadi Doffs (the Wadi didn't strike me to be friends of the Empire, but then, neither did the Orion Syndicate).
Besides the fact, any player in any current faction can utilize a Jem Hadar Soldier, a Breen Soldier, and a Reman Scientist already.
The big problem I can see with Jem'hadar is that Cardassia is barely a generation away from the Dominion's attempt at genocide, carried out by the Jem'Hadar.
If this were a TV series or film, I think your argument would have more ground. As it is though, we've got a game here, and consistency and sense disappeared long ago (need I mention the Undine Lock Box?)
I think people need to wake up and realize that this game can't be related to mainstream trek. The game is here to make money, and has a somewhat different target audience. If people were to want Jem Hadar with the Cardassians, and Cryptic/PWE could make money from it (which they would) then it's going to happen.
Though I am curious to consider the addition of Xindi races in the future (not aquatic, I won't open that can of worms). I know you can make them as generic aliens right now. But the same with cardassians, having playable Xindi as fully recognized Xindi ... adds depth.
I concur with this. Alien Generated Aliens just aren't the same.
I would exclude hybrids, simply because if we start having hybrids of the Bajoran and Cardassian, people will then want a Human-Vulcan hybrid, or an Andorian-Saurian Hybrid, or a Trill-Gorn Hybrid (etc). I would say take the Alien Generator away (because it's likely that only the Federation would allow random aliens into its body) but then I don't think people should be excluded from creating and playing with whatever complexion of alien they can create. Why should they be limited?
Frankly that's not much different to a lot of existing playable species. Good examples are the Gorn and Letheans - popular in-game but with a grand total of 2 episodes apiece.
The big problem I can see with Jem'hadar is that Cardassia is barely a generation away from the Dominion's attempt at genocide, carried out by the Jem'Hadar. I can't see the mainstream Cardassian forces being willing to accept those renegades - they'd be much more likely to find acceptance in the Federation (on general principles) or the Klingon Empire (for respect as warriors).
thats the devs take on it, but i can only claim to what i see from what little is there. the xeoplites are traders, dukat said they are free traders and one such freighter was encountered. the other one the lissepians they are also traders, and have had a few episodes on ds9, mostly in mention in passing.
the gorn for the little that was seen is that they are fighters, and cruically they were known as the gorn hegemony which means they had some form of government and that they were trying to claim cestus III which would later remain in federation hands. they only had one episode on tos but hwere mentioned a few times.
the letheans, only two were seen, but based on their behavior they were more inclined to violence and impatience then waiting around. that tells its own story of these two, unknown about anything outside that and nor did i claim to know beyond that.
jem'hadar can be mercenaries, they go where the money is like the breen, there wouldnt be a problem having a paid captain, because its no different from your other captains who serve the uniform and also get paid. and you mistake cardassian psychology a bit, they wouldnt accept federation help too deeply either being a proud people being humbled as such and then having it being rubbed in is not what the cardassians want, what they want is to come back and be a proud people with their own territory and rights again, but to do the right thing instead.
T6 Miranda Hero Ship FTW. Been around since Dec 2010 on STO and bought LTS in Apr 2013 for STO.
Comments
Who is in that union other than Cardassia?
Someone is having selective memory here, and it isn't me. Romulans by no stretch of the imagination were 'good guys' In the majority of their appearances. Heck, even when they were 'nice' they were almost always antagonists in the episode, and were consistently hostile and aggressive towards the Federation and the Klingons. It would take a blind person to not see how Legacy of Romulus undermines that.
The 'Balance of Terror' commander is an outlier. Even the Romulans in 'Enterprise' shared little resemblance to the TOS Romulans. Like the Klingons, the Romulans were completely redesigned for the TNG era. If we were playing a TOS-era MMO this wouldn't be a problem, but this game is post TNG, and as such it's a Little tonally anachronistic, particularly when pre-LoR the Romulans fit into the TNG-onwards vein rather nicely.
Cardassians, like Romulans were iconic as antagonists, and while 'nicer' Romulans and Cardassians help spice it all up, there's a certain expectation that any playable Romulan/Cardassian faction carry over a little of what made them so popular as antagonists, particularly when every other trek game to date with playable Cardassian/Romulan factions I can think of had them in antagonistic roles.
Like it or not, it's not unreasonable to expect playable Romulans and Cardassians to be 'darker' than the Federation. It's a basic expectation in regards to playable Romulans and Cardassians, and has been for quite some time in games.
Cryptic obviously can't be trusted to deliver on that basic expectation reliably, so I'm not in any rush to have a Cardassian faction.
We have coups, we have illegal ale, we have traitors and people escaping with other romulans helping that cause....grr
But on the side note...please don't do Cardassians
its bad enough we Romulans are subjugated to even less forethought than the Klingons
(perfect example....Hey they want a science vessel....ok give them a TACTICAL Warbird, that should fix the issue)
would you want your kids their kids and your whole race marked with genocide??? thats whole point of why they helped they wanted the Federation conquered not destroyed
system Lord Baal is dead
As far as making them a fully, fleshed out faction like the Federation or KDF, nope, never going to happen. If it was, it would have been the Romulan Republic and they are more of a sub faction. The Cardassians would be a sub faction too, and because they would have an identical story line as the RR it would hardly be worth the effort to make
The mark of truly great people, good people conquer for the sake of their children, bad people destroy for the sake of ....well because it moved the line on the map a direction they approved of :P
say that when you are in a romluan slave camp
system Lord Baal is dead
system Lord Baal is dead
Swtor allows it, and Sith is the more popular faction. EQ Next is going let you chose how your character acts and you can be evil.
Don't get gameplay mixed up with griefing.
You are delusional if you think cherry picking out the odd 'nice' Romulan 'sinks' my case. Any number of 'bad' Romulans, named and unnamed can be trotted out as counterexamples for the few good ones. Tomalak, Sela, Taris, Vreenak, etc etc.
I didn't claim every Romulan was an unthinking evil drone, and if you read my reply, you'd realize that. Romulans come in various shades of grey, even 'evil' ones like Tomalak have a conscience, despite his hatred of Picard, and of course there is Toreth. Trying to strawman me into a racist by putting words into my mouth doesn't change the fact that like the Klingons, they had their own cultural trends which were very well established over the course of the various series.
Obviously you have never played as KDF if you think 'nobody is going to allow' playing a 'bad guy faction, because that includes torture, slavery, murder, etc on prisoners of war and civilians. And of Course as I said before every other Trek game with playable Romulans or Cardassians up to this point has consistently had them present as antagonists. It's really shameless to plug your ears and pretend that there isn't a precedent for these things. As well as incredibly dishonest to paint everyone who wants to play Romulans/Cardassians like they usually were depicted on the show as having sociopathic tendencies.
Back on topic Do I want to play as a Cardassian? Absolutely Do I think Cryptic would do them Justice? No Do I think Cryptic will make a Cardassian faction? Not in the near future
Thing is, I keep hearing around the forums that it was CBS that gave the axe to a true Bad Guy Faction.
~Vice Admiral Saskia - U.S.S. Muenzuka (Dyson Science Destroyer)~
~Lieutenant General Kalinka - I.K.S. Kazami (Negh'Var Heavy Battlecruiser)~
~Vice Admiral Lorel - R.R.W. Aureus Aquila (Mirror Mogai Heavy Warbird)~
Nobody, and it should stay that way. Okay, here are the race options a Cardassian faction should have:
1) Cardassian - obviously
2) Liberated Borg Cardassian - because reasons
3) Cardassian-Bajoran Hybrid - sometimes you feel like a nut
And *maybe* just to shut people up:
4) Liberated Jem'Hadar - freed from the White and with nowhere else to go
That's it. No aliengen. Even the Romulans having an aliengen option is ridiculous.
Furthermore, and to share my two cents regarding good Romulans vs bad Romulans; I don't think the Romulans (as a species) are one or the other. They're like us. To this day you get good people, bad people, and power hungry or corrupt governments. The Romulan Senate was xenophobic and didn't trust other species, most of the commanders we met were simply following orders (like how a soldier now might have to bomb a town he doesn't want to; he does so because he's signed up). If we dove into the Romulan Public, I think we'd have easily seen a different side to them, so no, they're not evil, it's just we've not had the best of encounters with them.
@f2pdrakon :rolleyes:
Okay, lets first address the Suliban. Are you saying that it is your belief that all the Suliban in the entire galaxy are situated in that ONE Helix?
That's a bit like traveling to the Amazon (if you were an alien from space), locating a tribe of people, and wrongly assuming that they are what all of humanity is like. You'd be wrong. It is true that we've not had any other Suliban encounters, doesn't mean to say there isn't a functioning Suliban government out there somewhere though, and those in the Helix simply wish to live a different kind of life.
If there truly was NO link, then the Acamarian wouldn't be within the Republic Duty Officer system, would they? There obviously IS a link.
#thinkbeforespeak
:eek: I made a lengthy post about that a few months back. It was shot down.
more like;
1. cardassian.
2. cardassian lib. (vet 1k reward)
3. bajoran. (unlockable from z store)
4. jem'hadar. (mercenary jem'hadar, only bought from z-store)
5. breen. (mercenary/privateer, vet 1k reward)
6. alien gen.
Been around since Dec 2010 on STO and bought LTS in Apr 2013 for STO.
-Cardassian
-Renegade Bajoran
-Valerian
-Klaestron
-Xepolite
-Lissepian
And possibly an alien generator. No Dominion BS. That was just one time in the Cardies' history that they wanna forget(other than the True Way)
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most of those were one timers and the last two were traders, not fighters. and dominion allies dont make any sense to a cardassian playable side, never has.
Been around since Dec 2010 on STO and bought LTS in Apr 2013 for STO.
...oh wait, Cryptic does. :rolleyes: good point, I guess.
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Frankly that's not much different to a lot of existing playable species. Good examples are the Gorn and Letheans - popular in-game but with a grand total of 2 episodes apiece.
The big problem I can see with Jem'hadar is that Cardassia is barely a generation away from the Dominion's attempt at genocide, carried out by the Jem'Hadar. I can't see the mainstream Cardassian forces being willing to accept those renegades - they'd be much more likely to find acceptance in the Federation (on general principles) or the Klingon Empire (for respect as warriors).
At first I was like ... but then you saved it with ...
Though I am curious to consider the addition of Xindi races in the future (not aquatic, I won't open that can of worms). I know you can make them as generic aliens right now. But the same with cardassians, having playable Xindi as fully recognized Xindi ... adds depth.
And the question of which faction they may lean toward or half faction or multiple semi factions?
Hmmmm.
And that gets me thinking about how a lot of those races mentioned, even the traders/merchants could get added in too.
Besides the fact, any player in any current faction can utilize a Jem Hadar Soldier, a Breen Soldier, and a Reman Scientist already.
If this were a TV series or film, I think your argument would have more ground. As it is though, we've got a game here, and consistency and sense disappeared long ago (need I mention the Undine Lock Box?)
I think people need to wake up and realize that this game can't be related to mainstream trek. The game is here to make money, and has a somewhat different target audience. If people were to want Jem Hadar with the Cardassians, and Cryptic/PWE could make money from it (which they would) then it's going to happen.
I concur with this. Alien Generated Aliens just aren't the same.
I would go with;
- Cardassians (for the obvious reasons)
- Liberated Cardassian (lifetime reward)
- Bajoran (because they've got history (c-store))
- Jem Hadar (because they're wanted)
I would exclude hybrids, simply because if we start having hybrids of the Bajoran and Cardassian, people will then want a Human-Vulcan hybrid, or an Andorian-Saurian Hybrid, or a Trill-Gorn Hybrid (etc). I would say take the Alien Generator away (because it's likely that only the Federation would allow random aliens into its body) but then I don't think people should be excluded from creating and playing with whatever complexion of alien they can create. Why should they be limited?
thats the devs take on it, but i can only claim to what i see from what little is there. the xeoplites are traders, dukat said they are free traders and one such freighter was encountered. the other one the lissepians they are also traders, and have had a few episodes on ds9, mostly in mention in passing.
the gorn for the little that was seen is that they are fighters, and cruically they were known as the gorn hegemony which means they had some form of government and that they were trying to claim cestus III which would later remain in federation hands. they only had one episode on tos but hwere mentioned a few times.
the letheans, only two were seen, but based on their behavior they were more inclined to violence and impatience then waiting around. that tells its own story of these two, unknown about anything outside that and nor did i claim to know beyond that.
jem'hadar can be mercenaries, they go where the money is like the breen, there wouldnt be a problem having a paid captain, because its no different from your other captains who serve the uniform and also get paid. and you mistake cardassian psychology a bit, they wouldnt accept federation help too deeply either being a proud people being humbled as such and then having it being rubbed in is not what the cardassians want, what they want is to come back and be a proud people with their own territory and rights again, but to do the right thing instead.
Been around since Dec 2010 on STO and bought LTS in Apr 2013 for STO.