In the first instance, a player with a lot has invested more time and energy and concern into the game than someone with only a little, and can be assumed therefore to have more of an interest in its continued good condition.
I get your point, I'm just saying that I completely disagree. A vested interest means that you can get value back. In this game - and just about every other game - you can't, regardless of how much time or money you put into it.
It's like buying a losing lotto ticket. You had your fun, the thrill of maybe winning, but at the end of the day that loser has no value. If it disappears, you lose nothing. Same thing with the game. Only those who truly stand to lose something have a vested interest.
In the second, I am at a loss for how you come to such plainly false conclusions.
An ec economy is absolutely necessary for what I said to be true.
EC is the medium of exchange by which the 80 keys are used to obtain a galor or d'kora, in the example i gave.
And how do you expect those individuals I mentioned before, the lower dollar spenders, to even participate in this? In this example, you're basically calling keys the foundation. I've been talking about helping to prevent even this foundation from being out of reach to newer/less spend-happy customers.
My point which you ignored, is that slaving in EC mines isnt the most effective way to obtain the things you want. Slaving in EC mines increases the EC supply and causes ec price inflation.
The design of the game is such that the harmful effects of EC supply increase / price inflation can be negated completely by grinding dil instead of slaving for EC.
I'll agree with you that energy credits may not be the most efficient (although efficiency is subjective for a game that you also want to have fun in), but it is a means to an end. Your increasing supply point is why I was also thinking of having something "admin" related that is basically a vendor that can be turned on and off - anything it "earns" is effectively removed from the game.
Doing this effectively could be a good way to remove large amounts of energy credits, though I doubt it would be enough on its own.
Because the game was designed to incentivize grinding dil rather than slaving for EC, I deduce from the set of incentives that people are meant to do the former rather than the latter.
Well, truth be told you're probably meant to just spend real cash to get everything. In a perfect world, I'm sure that's what they'd prefer.
However, if the dilithium route is the core goal, then that's a whole different pandora's box of problems to address since it's inherently limited in amount that a player can get (realistically) per day. Now you start getting into how long someone's attention span can last to get all the keys, fleet weapons, starbase projects, reputation projects, and so on.
This would also make an admin control necessary to jump in with the dilithium/zen exchange to control extreme spikes and drops, maybe even to shake up a market that has been largely stagnant for long periods of time, though I don't know if that last part would be truly necessary.
Anyway, I have to go to bed now. I've actually enjoyed the debate, but I have to give a presentation tomorrow and need sleep.
Perhaps we should all hold hands and sing combaya or something as well.
Seriously though if they added a 1 mil ec post limit the exchange would die thats all. You could go there and get battaries and ship repair parts I guess.
Anything of value will only be an option in the games trade channels.
Unless you also think they should add a 1mil ec limit to trades... in which case the game would die out in a around a week. Give people everything they want and they have no reason to log in. So they stop doing that and find other things to do. Cryptic lucky likes $ so they would never do anything like you propose.
Could we really all hold hands and sing combaya!? Some kind of new disco ball thingy to make that happen? That would be neat.
OK,
The 1 million ec limit would be a sudden random thing, implemented while locking all current items above 1 million ec at 1 million ec and making them unable to be taken off the exchange except by purchase from someone other than the seller. The limit would be in effect for a random amount of time to encourage players to check the exchange often.
That way everyone has a chance at getting all the good things still.
Could we really all hold hands and sing combaya!? Some kind of new disco ball thingy to make that happen? That would be neat.
OK,
The 1 million ec limit would be a sudden random thing, implemented while locking all current items above 1 million ec at 1 million ec and making them unable to be taken off the exchange except by purchase from someone other than the seller. The limit would be in effect for a random amount of time to encourage players to check the exchange often.
That way everyone has a chance at getting all the good things still.
Just think of it as part of the exchange gamble.
I agree a combaya ball would be pretty sweet. Should have been the new summer dance thing... a camp fire that makes everyone throw there hands to there side and sway. lmao
Really though your idea for the exchange is pretty bad. I would never ever post anything if I thought my 12 mil Keel'el doff or worse my 100 mil ec ship could all of a sudden be stolen from me by Cryptic. I would simply sell everything I paid for with D (lock box keys which open boxes) on trade channels where no one would steal from me.
Your idea would indeed kill the exchange dead for anything that had a value of more then 20% more then the cap. The idea of Cryptic steeling things from players that in a lot of cases Paid actual $ for them (by opening boxes)... would not go over very well at all. Could you imagine the CSR calls at Cryptic. "Umm dudes I just spent 50 bucks this weekend and had 200 mil ec worth of stuff on the exchange.... logged in this morning and it all sold for a total of 20mil... I want my 50 bucks back you slime"
Sorry things work the way they do because Cryptic is as ferengi as those of us that enjoy working the games markets. They have the system setup to encourage people to spend real $. They have zero reason to spend $ if they could get anything in the game easy. Cryptic wants it to be easy enough to keep free players around... but just hard enough to entice them to drop a few $ now and then.
I agree a combaya ball would be pretty sweet. Should have been the new summer dance thing... a camp fire that makes everyone throw there hands to there side and sway. lmao
Really though your idea for the exchange is pretty bad. I would never ever post anything if I thought my 12 mil Keel'el doff or worse my 100 mil ec ship could all of a sudden be stolen from me by Cryptic. I would simply sell everything I paid for with D (lock box keys which open boxes) on trade channels where no one would steal from me.
Your idea would indeed kill the exchange dead for anything that had a value of more then 20% more then the cap. The idea of Cryptic steeling things from players that in a lot of cases Paid actual $ for them (by opening boxes)... would not go over very well at all. Could you imagine the CSR calls at Cryptic. "Umm dudes I just spent 50 bucks this weekend and had 200 mil ec worth of stuff on the exchange.... logged in this morning and it all sold for a total of 20mil... I want my 50 bucks back you slime"
Sorry things work the way they do because Cryptic is as ferengi as those of us that enjoy working the games markets. They have the system setup to encourage people to spend real $. They have zero reason to spend $ if they could get anything in the game easy. Cryptic wants it to be easy enough to keep free players around... but just hard enough to entice them to drop a few $ now and then.
Cryptic has very little influence on this issue, and only if it involves dilithium, zen, free ships, free doffs/boffs, etc.
As for EC's generated thru exchange sales/purchases, they only put a hard cap to prevent complete, and utter price gouging/fixing to a degree.
Ec sinks remove ec from the game. Selling or buying a lockbox item just transfers ec from one person to another.
The only moral form of ec sink is to have desirable stuff that can only be purchased for ec.
My proposal is super shiny ships or gear or clothes that can only be obtained for large amounts of ec.
I would recommend consumables instead. Gear or clothing is bought once. It can't really act as a continual sink in the system. Consumablsea are, well, consumed. You need to keep buying them.
Cryptic has very little influence on this issue, and only if it involves dilithium, zen, free ships, free doffs/boffs, etc.
As for EC's generated thru exchange sales/purchases, they only put a hard cap to prevent complete, and utter price gouging/fixing to a degree.
Exchange price limitations could just lead to creating a "shadow market "- people offering their stuff in zone chat and the transfer being done via player trade. You would need to limit this trade option, too. And that will be difficult. It could end up with stuff like "I give you a D'Kora if you give me 25 Fleet Ship Modules".
They could perhaps add a 1 % listing fee - that doesn't get returned if the item isn't sold. But that could also drive prices up, or still create that shadow market. (Unless player trade also comes with a 1 % transfer fee? But how do you calculate this with player-driven market prices?)
Star Trek Online Advancement: You start with lowbie gear, you end with Lobi gear.
Cryptic has very little influence on this issue, and only if it involves dilithium, zen, free ships, free doffs/boffs, etc.
As for EC's generated thru exchange sales/purchases, they only put a hard cap to prevent complete, and utter price gouging/fixing to a degree.
Yes I agree of course the 500 mil cap is to keep insane levels of price fixing. Of course it hasn't really stopped fixing of prices... having said that the more people playing the more "fair" prices will be of course. Any drift of prices upward the last year is no doubt the lack of players effecting the market more then anything. imo anyway.
I would also say that Cryptic has a ton of control over the market honestly. They can steer the ship anytime they like. D weekends... mark weekends... lockbox contents... zen sales on things like keys, or doff packs packs loaded with ship drops... they can even use holiday events to control markets in which ever way they wish.
If Cryptic wanted to "relieve" all the people that feel they can't afford the things they wanted. Cryptic could easily drop multiple D weekends in a month... drop a doff pack with a ship.. throw a 20% sale on keys... or heck just drop a lockbox with a pure OP weapon type or ship or doff ect.
I think if anyone really looks at what they have released and the sales / events they have done the last year or so its pretty clear they have been shaping the market to be exactly where it is. I don't think Cryptic sees anything wrong with pricing exactly where it is right now.
There are only 2 items that would ever sell for a min price over there 500 mil limit. That is 100% on purpose folks. They don't want people to see jems or bulls on the market accept for the short times they run promos on them. Otherwise they want people to know they missed out... its one of there sure fire sales drivers. Everything else where lockbox ships range from 70-250 mil each is exactly where they want it. I would say the same is true of the doffs and traits. None of them are so expensive that you couldn't grind them with a week of just playing the game in a way to earn vender trash. However pretty much all of them you could earn instantly by simply dropping 20 bucks. Seems to me its exactly where they would want it.
Yes I agree of course the 500 mil cap is to keep insane levels of price fixing. Of course it hasn't really stopped fixing of prices... having said that the more people playing the more "fair" prices will be of course. Any drift of prices upward the last year is no doubt the lack of players effecting the market more then anything. imo anyway.
I would also say that Cryptic has a ton of control over the market honestly. They can steer the ship anytime they like. D weekends... mark weekends... lockbox contents... zen sales on things like keys, or doff packs packs loaded with ship drops... they can even use holiday events to control markets in which ever way they wish.
If Cryptic wanted to "relieve" all the people that feel they can't afford the things they wanted. Cryptic could easily drop multiple D weekends in a month... drop a doff pack with a ship.. throw a 20% sale on keys... or heck just drop a lockbox with a pure OP weapon type or ship or doff ect.
I think if anyone really looks at what they have released and the sales / events they have done the last year or so its pretty clear they have been shaping the market to be exactly where it is. I don't think Cryptic sees anything wrong with pricing exactly where it is right now.
There are only 2 items that would ever sell for a min price over there 500 mil limit. That is 100% on purpose folks. They don't want people to see jems or bulls on the market accept for the short times they run promos on them. Otherwise they want people to know they missed out... its one of there sure fire sales drivers. Everything else where lockbox ships range from 70-250 mil each is exactly where they want it. I would say the same is true of the doffs and traits. None of them are so expensive that you couldn't grind them with a week of just playing the game in a way to earn vender trash. However pretty much all of them you could earn instantly by simply dropping 20 bucks. Seems to me its exactly where they would want it.
Granted they do tend to occasionally do something nice, but not too often.
As for their interest in anything game EC economy wise, they could really care less unless it hurts their actual RL revenue, due to player intervention.
And as for the red highlighted section, yes they could do that, but after more than 2 years of playing this game, I have yet to ever see it happen.
Granted they do tend to occasionally do something nice, but not too often.
As for their interest in anything game EC economy wise, they could really care less unless it hurts their actual RL revenue, due to player intervention.
And as for the red highlighted section, yes they could do that, but after more than 2 years of playing this game, I have yet to ever see it happen.
EC - D - Cash... there all tied together.
Its why contents in lockboxs are not bound... and things like lockbox weapons are bound once you open them.
They want lockbox contents to have an EC value... that means free players can grind for things... and they know people will get annoyed and just drop 20 bucks here and there to speed there grind.
Its all tied together and very much on purpose that way.
If you choose to convert D to EC through the zen store... to purchase lockbox goodies off the exchange. You make Cryptic money... in many ways.
1) thats D you could have converted to zen to get free stuff... you didn't you got stuff to sell for EC
2) the stuff you got and sold is EC someone else needs... and they may choose to use the zen route.
3) you are buying things from lockboxes that someone else opened with Zen. Even if they purchsed the key with EC someone purchased that key with zen.
Bottom line we are all spending D to get the things we want... and converting to EC. The more people do that the more likely it is for one of us to drop $ to fill zen the easy way.
The only cap that ensures everytrhing works for Cryptic is the D cap... as long as we can all only refine 8k per toon... they can keep the cycle going. With out Expensive things to buy with EC... no one will buy keys to sell... no one will buy anything off the zen store to sell. Because 1) they won't need the EC... and 2) they won't have any return when they open boxes. So they won't open them... and Cryptic closes STO down cause it isn't turning a profit.
Medium high prices are NEEDED in STO for them to continue making money. I mean seriously do you think all those lockbox ships on the exchange where opened by people that wanted them ? Clearly not or they wouldn't be there. So they where ALL opened for EC Profit. Remove that and the supply of lockbox ships on the exchange just drops to zero. With it the supply of all the "boobie prize items" also dries up. If I wasn't opening a box for a Dominion ship... I sure am not opening them looking for a helms trait or anything else. I am opening them for EC profit period. Remove the ability to profit from them and I stop opening them.
Its a cycle that Cryptic needs to tend... and they do. D - > Zen - > EC ...... its simple make the grind on D annoying... and require it for fleet projects personal reps ect... and people get annoyed and spend $ to get zen. Have items expensive enough in EC and people will grind the EC... and at some point Cryptic hopes they speed there grind with a $ injection of zen.
Wow! That was quick. I must have put on my bad idea jeans today.
The Exchange is as the Exchange does.
I guess if devs did get involved in the Exchange it would only open up the floodgates to the potential for other problems.
(Oh, and the only "back story" for why I have two different posts that complain about different Exchange issues is simple: I went to buy a ship that has more than doubled in price since last summer ... then I started trying to sell items in order to start earning enough to buy that ship only to discover prices on those items I'm trying to sell have now been dramatically devalued ... making it even more difficult to buy the thing I want to buy. No secrete conspiracy, just me venting my frustrations over not being able to buy or sell the way I used to on the Exchange.)
there are many reasons for this prices change naturally daily supply and demand an entire year has past in your own words, demand for ship has increased supply however is still limited to lockbox winners and very few will open older boxes if you notice most opened boxes are new released ones as everything inside is brand new more opened = more supply after some times passed the box is gone less opened less supply but a demand is there still = price increase.
items being worth less such as? its been a year more then enough time for supply of items as examples alien artifacts to increase while value such as nerfs of nadorc to make them completely worthless to most thats just an example but you can understand.
as for the exchange leave it alone if a limit comes into effect what will happen? its already happening now has been for weeks jem hadar attack ships aren't on the exchange but are still being traded private channels, trading channels, zone chat, trades player to player the value is subjective but what it sells for currently is near 600 mill ec the exchange limit 500 mill, when the exchange no longer provides the ferengi simply get back into there d'koras and move on to different trade routes ;-)
Welcome to a free market economy. If the 20 items sell at a much higher price, that's how much that item is worth.
It's all about how much people are willing to pay. If the items don't sell, people will re-list at a lower price.
Just because you don't want to pay that price, or don't think it's worth that price, doesn't mean it's wrong... it's all about how many people are willing to pay the higher price.
Its why contents in lockboxs are not bound... and things like lockbox weapons are bound once you open them.
They want lockbox contents to have an EC value... that means free players can grind for things... and they know people will get annoyed and just drop 20 bucks here and there to speed there grind.
Its all tied together and very much on purpose that way.
If you choose to convert D to EC through the zen store... to purchase lockbox goodies off the exchange. You make Cryptic money... in many ways.
1) thats D you could have converted to zen to get free stuff... you didn't you got stuff to sell for EC
2) the stuff you got and sold is EC someone else needs... and they may choose to use the zen route.
3) you are buying things from lockboxes that someone else opened with Zen. Even if they purchsed the key with EC someone purchased that key with zen.
Bottom line we are all spending D to get the things we want... and converting to EC. The more people do that the more likely it is for one of us to drop $ to fill zen the easy way.
The only cap that ensures everytrhing works for Cryptic is the D cap... as long as we can all only refine 8k per toon... they can keep the cycle going. With out Expensive things to buy with EC... no one will buy keys to sell... no one will buy anything off the zen store to sell. Because 1) they won't need the EC... and 2) they won't have any return when they open boxes. So they won't open them... and Cryptic closes STO down cause it isn't turning a profit.
Medium high prices are NEEDED in STO for them to continue making money. I mean seriously do you think all those lockbox ships on the exchange where opened by people that wanted them ? Clearly not or they wouldn't be there. So they where ALL opened for EC Profit. Remove that and the supply of lockbox ships on the exchange just drops to zero. With it the supply of all the "boobie prize items" also dries up. If I wasn't opening a box for a Dominion ship... I sure am not opening them looking for a helms trait or anything else. I am opening them for EC profit period. Remove the ability to profit from them and I stop opening them.
Its a cycle that Cryptic needs to tend... and they do. D - > Zen - > EC ...... its simple make the grind on D annoying... and require it for fleet projects personal reps ect... and people get annoyed and spend $ to get zen. Have items expensive enough in EC and people will grind the EC... and at some point Cryptic hopes they speed there grind with a $ injection of zen.
Red area completely contradicts the yellow area, as Dilithium cannot be directly converted to EC's.
Green area, is yes something Cryptic benefits from due to revenue from new Zen purchasing, but not all of the Zen being traded on the exchange is newly purchased Zen, and is in fact freely obtained Zen by Subscription accounts, and even people buying/reselling freely obtained Zen from dilithium grinding.
Yes, if they didn't allow the items currently to sold on the EC exchange, it would spell disaster for them, because no one would want to purchase Zen much, but they also need put a block in place such as the EC cap, for both bank/character, and even the exchange to keep some order in place, and let's not forget to better profit their self.
After all your loss with EC caps, works to Cryptic's advantage by keeping you constantly in the need, to make some form trading as you put it D-> Z-> EC, or better yet Z-> EC.
Either way they win, so who is manipulating who?
Think about this when you consider those, who think they are getting one over on the System, by trying to control the exchange markets.
Easy peasy
Step 1: Set selling cap, as to prevent anything ever from exceeding said cap, as to prevent price gouging/fixing beyond this point.
Yeah, kid, that didn't work. Ever check out the price on Bugships lately? It's in the 550-600M range. Funny how that works, since 500M is the price cap on the Exchange...how many Bugships are on the Exchange now, hrm? If you want one, can you even buy one anymore? Nope, you're looking to delve into the world of shady black market trading now.
There is no way to prove that, Cryptic and PW are the only ones that know of the transactions and that information is classified, you simply are using "people I know this do this so it must be true for everyone", its like saying "everyone I know is male and thus females are a myth".
Guess you do not understand, the reasoning behind multiple farming toons to obtain zen easily for dilithium, or those who have zen that do not need purchase anything anymore, and sell their zen, or maybe the part I mentioned that Cryptic makes money from zen when people actually spend RL money to buy it, but we will just go with you didn't pay that much attention.
Yeah, kid, that didn't work. Ever check out the price on Bugships lately? It's in the 550-600M range. Funny how that works, since 500M is the price cap on the Exchange...how many Bugships are on the Exchange now, hrm? If you want one, can you even buy one anymore? Nope, you're looking to delve into the world of shady black market trading now.
Yeah well I didn't put those barricades in place, and nothing is preventing people from using private trading either (at least not now).
If people want to sell them at over 500mill, than that is the route they must take, because until the exchange changes, Cryptic will profit of those who are limited using the exchange system.
Red area completely contradicts the yellow area, as Dilithium cannot be directly converted to EC's.
Green area, is yes something Cryptic benefits from due to revenue from new Zen purchasing, but not all of the Zen being traded on the exchange is newly purchased Zen, and is in fact freely obtained Zen by Subscription accounts, and even people buying/reselling freely obtained Zen from dilithium grinding.
Yes, if they didn't allow the items currently to sold on the EC exchange, it would spell disaster for them, because no one would want to purchase Zen much, but they also need put a block in place such as the EC cap, for both bank/character, and even the exchange to keep some order in place, and let's not forget to better profit their self.
After all your loss with EC caps, works to Cryptic's advantage by keeping you constantly in the need, to make some form trading as you put it D-> Z-> EC, or better yet Z-> EC.
Either way they win, so who is manipulating who?
Think about this when you consider those, who think they are getting one over on the System, by trying to control the exchange markets.
I wasn't contradictory at all. Yes you can 100% convert Zen to EC. Of course Cryptic knows this. They encourage it. Are lockbox keys account bound when you pick them up with zen ? Of course they are not. You can purchase keys / fleet mods / doff packs and sell them in game for EC. That is by design. Cryptic hasn't added a slider converter box no... of course not they want a free market to rein so they can sell lock boxes. (the point I was making that you highlighted yellow... is that if you convert all your D into zen to make EC... when something like a sweet 3 pack 5000zen ship pack shows up you are much more likely to spend $ as you have no reserve of zen having converted it already)
As far as in game earned D turning into zen... sure that's the design. There is still an associated cost though. Yes it isn't directly making them $ when someone trades 8000D for 50 or so zen. However it makes it more likely that player will spend $ later for something like a ship pack... or to grab some doff packs during a super rare ship promo ect. It is also keeping people playing the game. There is value to a game company in just keeping you loggin in everyday. Your backside in the seat of course... but also the perception that there are plenty of backsides in the seats to a new player that logs in ect. Cryptic has a formula just like every other game dev for % of $ return on completely 100% free players... We ALL make them money even if we don't spend our own and just drive the fake in game economy by being present. (not to mention share holder reports that love to report total active users of something like STO)
Of course they are manipulating the market.... That is the very point I was making. Some people in the thread seem to think Cryptic has no control of the market at all. So they should cap it down. There is no need to cap anything. It is working EXACTLY AS INTENDED. Prices are exactly where they project them to be in game right now this minute. So why would they be worried about caps. They have a 500mil listing cap and its purpose setup like that. Go play any PWE game and you will see they do the exact same thing... and in all of those games. There are a very small handful of super rare items that come back from time to time. They sell for more then the cap. Its on purpose. They want us to covet the Jem and the Bull... They won't ever be freely offered. Unless they are in need of some extra profit to fudge some quarterly numbers. In which case one or the other (or what ever unicorn mount is the super rare one in those other PWE games) go on special for a few weeks and drive sales.
Cryptics system is pretty smart... and its 100% copies over from PWEs own titles. It works... by keeping all the fake economy turning. They are able to get those handful of "whale" customers that will drop a good amount of $ every month, doing there thing. To be honest I know most people think it sounds crazy... the completely 100% FREE players make Cryptic more money in there PWE cash system. They need a ton of us grinding and creating value on fake things... in order for there handful of $ customers to feel the need to drop $. Really the system is something to be admired, They should use it as a teaching tool in low level economic classes. lol
" rapid inflation and rapid deflation of item values is really hurting the exchange. "
Can you list examples?
This is your 2nd thread about the exchange (in the past 24 hours), I believe you have a backstory about something happening to you on the exchange?
This.
I read the OP as
"rapid inflation and rapid deflation of items is really hurting ME"
Either the guy is wanting a particular item that costs way more than it did a while ago, or he is wanting to sell an item that is selling for a lot less now than it did a while ago, and he has EC symbols in his eyes.
Either way, suck it up buttercup. That's a free market for you.
" Experience is a hard mistress, she gives the tests first, and the lessons after... "
They need a ton of us grinding and creating value on fake things... in order for there handful of $ customers to feel the need to drop $. Really the system is something to be admired, They should use it as a teaching tool in low level economic classes. lol
Seems you don't understand the system as much as you like to think. The part you forgot to add, is all the F2P grinders, especially the ones that have multiple accounts are actually being manipulated also.
They are basically working hours and hours, doing something monotonous and with little enjoyment and being paid in a small amount of digital currency usable only on one game. If you turned all those hours into real work you could earn actual real $ far exceeding what you can grind, and you could spend it on whatever you liked.
So called 'whale' customers are actually the only honest ones, they don't waste time on grinding because they do enough real work to earn $ to enable them to spend it on the game in the first place.
They don't have a strange idealism that they somehow make more money for cryptic, when in actual fact, everyone is getting just as fleeced as the next guy, whether you use $ or not. It all really boils down to how much you enjoy the game, regardless of your playstyle.
Bottom line, the F2P grinders that always think they know something the common players don't, are actually working for Cryptic for far less than minimum wage. Lol. Enjoy!
" Experience is a hard mistress, she gives the tests first, and the lessons after... "
Seems you don't understand the system as much as you like to think. The part you forgot to add, is all the F2P grinders, especially the ones that have multiple accounts are actually being manipulated also.
The part you quoted doesn't really suggest he doesn't get that, though. He just points out it is a wonderful system.
The fundamental thing probably is - the state of the Exchange "economy" is fine for Cryptic.
Star Trek Online Advancement: You start with lowbie gear, you end with Lobi gear.
Comments
I get your point, I'm just saying that I completely disagree. A vested interest means that you can get value back. In this game - and just about every other game - you can't, regardless of how much time or money you put into it.
It's like buying a losing lotto ticket. You had your fun, the thrill of maybe winning, but at the end of the day that loser has no value. If it disappears, you lose nothing. Same thing with the game. Only those who truly stand to lose something have a vested interest.
And how do you expect those individuals I mentioned before, the lower dollar spenders, to even participate in this? In this example, you're basically calling keys the foundation. I've been talking about helping to prevent even this foundation from being out of reach to newer/less spend-happy customers.
I'll agree with you that energy credits may not be the most efficient (although efficiency is subjective for a game that you also want to have fun in), but it is a means to an end. Your increasing supply point is why I was also thinking of having something "admin" related that is basically a vendor that can be turned on and off - anything it "earns" is effectively removed from the game.
Doing this effectively could be a good way to remove large amounts of energy credits, though I doubt it would be enough on its own.
Well, truth be told you're probably meant to just spend real cash to get everything. In a perfect world, I'm sure that's what they'd prefer.
However, if the dilithium route is the core goal, then that's a whole different pandora's box of problems to address since it's inherently limited in amount that a player can get (realistically) per day. Now you start getting into how long someone's attention span can last to get all the keys, fleet weapons, starbase projects, reputation projects, and so on.
This would also make an admin control necessary to jump in with the dilithium/zen exchange to control extreme spikes and drops, maybe even to shake up a market that has been largely stagnant for long periods of time, though I don't know if that last part would be truly necessary.
Anyway, I have to go to bed now. I've actually enjoyed the debate, but I have to give a presentation tomorrow and need sleep.
Could we really all hold hands and sing combaya!? Some kind of new disco ball thingy to make that happen? That would be neat.
OK,
The 1 million ec limit would be a sudden random thing, implemented while locking all current items above 1 million ec at 1 million ec and making them unable to be taken off the exchange except by purchase from someone other than the seller. The limit would be in effect for a random amount of time to encourage players to check the exchange often.
That way everyone has a chance at getting all the good things still.
Just think of it as part of the exchange gamble.
I agree a combaya ball would be pretty sweet. Should have been the new summer dance thing... a camp fire that makes everyone throw there hands to there side and sway. lmao
Really though your idea for the exchange is pretty bad. I would never ever post anything if I thought my 12 mil Keel'el doff or worse my 100 mil ec ship could all of a sudden be stolen from me by Cryptic. I would simply sell everything I paid for with D (lock box keys which open boxes) on trade channels where no one would steal from me.
Your idea would indeed kill the exchange dead for anything that had a value of more then 20% more then the cap. The idea of Cryptic steeling things from players that in a lot of cases Paid actual $ for them (by opening boxes)... would not go over very well at all. Could you imagine the CSR calls at Cryptic. "Umm dudes I just spent 50 bucks this weekend and had 200 mil ec worth of stuff on the exchange.... logged in this morning and it all sold for a total of 20mil... I want my 50 bucks back you slime"
Sorry things work the way they do because Cryptic is as ferengi as those of us that enjoy working the games markets. They have the system setup to encourage people to spend real $. They have zero reason to spend $ if they could get anything in the game easy. Cryptic wants it to be easy enough to keep free players around... but just hard enough to entice them to drop a few $ now and then.
Cryptic has very little influence on this issue, and only if it involves dilithium, zen, free ships, free doffs/boffs, etc.
As for EC's generated thru exchange sales/purchases, they only put a hard cap to prevent complete, and utter price gouging/fixing to a degree.
Praetor of the -RTS- Romulan Tal Shiar fleet!
I would recommend consumables instead. Gear or clothing is bought once. It can't really act as a continual sink in the system. Consumablsea are, well, consumed. You need to keep buying them.
Exchange price limitations could just lead to creating a "shadow market "- people offering their stuff in zone chat and the transfer being done via player trade. You would need to limit this trade option, too. And that will be difficult. It could end up with stuff like "I give you a D'Kora if you give me 25 Fleet Ship Modules".
They could perhaps add a 1 % listing fee - that doesn't get returned if the item isn't sold. But that could also drive prices up, or still create that shadow market. (Unless player trade also comes with a 1 % transfer fee? But how do you calculate this with player-driven market prices?)
Yes I agree of course the 500 mil cap is to keep insane levels of price fixing. Of course it hasn't really stopped fixing of prices... having said that the more people playing the more "fair" prices will be of course. Any drift of prices upward the last year is no doubt the lack of players effecting the market more then anything. imo anyway.
I would also say that Cryptic has a ton of control over the market honestly. They can steer the ship anytime they like. D weekends... mark weekends... lockbox contents... zen sales on things like keys, or doff packs packs loaded with ship drops... they can even use holiday events to control markets in which ever way they wish.
If Cryptic wanted to "relieve" all the people that feel they can't afford the things they wanted. Cryptic could easily drop multiple D weekends in a month... drop a doff pack with a ship.. throw a 20% sale on keys... or heck just drop a lockbox with a pure OP weapon type or ship or doff ect.
I think if anyone really looks at what they have released and the sales / events they have done the last year or so its pretty clear they have been shaping the market to be exactly where it is. I don't think Cryptic sees anything wrong with pricing exactly where it is right now.
There are only 2 items that would ever sell for a min price over there 500 mil limit. That is 100% on purpose folks. They don't want people to see jems or bulls on the market accept for the short times they run promos on them. Otherwise they want people to know they missed out... its one of there sure fire sales drivers. Everything else where lockbox ships range from 70-250 mil each is exactly where they want it. I would say the same is true of the doffs and traits. None of them are so expensive that you couldn't grind them with a week of just playing the game in a way to earn vender trash. However pretty much all of them you could earn instantly by simply dropping 20 bucks. Seems to me its exactly where they would want it.
Granted they do tend to occasionally do something nice, but not too often.
As for their interest in anything game EC economy wise, they could really care less unless it hurts their actual RL revenue, due to player intervention.
And as for the red highlighted section, yes they could do that, but after more than 2 years of playing this game, I have yet to ever see it happen.
Praetor of the -RTS- Romulan Tal Shiar fleet!
EC - D - Cash... there all tied together.
Its why contents in lockboxs are not bound... and things like lockbox weapons are bound once you open them.
They want lockbox contents to have an EC value... that means free players can grind for things... and they know people will get annoyed and just drop 20 bucks here and there to speed there grind.
Its all tied together and very much on purpose that way.
If you choose to convert D to EC through the zen store... to purchase lockbox goodies off the exchange. You make Cryptic money... in many ways.
1) thats D you could have converted to zen to get free stuff... you didn't you got stuff to sell for EC
2) the stuff you got and sold is EC someone else needs... and they may choose to use the zen route.
3) you are buying things from lockboxes that someone else opened with Zen. Even if they purchsed the key with EC someone purchased that key with zen.
Bottom line we are all spending D to get the things we want... and converting to EC. The more people do that the more likely it is for one of us to drop $ to fill zen the easy way.
The only cap that ensures everytrhing works for Cryptic is the D cap... as long as we can all only refine 8k per toon... they can keep the cycle going. With out Expensive things to buy with EC... no one will buy keys to sell... no one will buy anything off the zen store to sell. Because 1) they won't need the EC... and 2) they won't have any return when they open boxes. So they won't open them... and Cryptic closes STO down cause it isn't turning a profit.
Medium high prices are NEEDED in STO for them to continue making money. I mean seriously do you think all those lockbox ships on the exchange where opened by people that wanted them ? Clearly not or they wouldn't be there. So they where ALL opened for EC Profit. Remove that and the supply of lockbox ships on the exchange just drops to zero. With it the supply of all the "boobie prize items" also dries up. If I wasn't opening a box for a Dominion ship... I sure am not opening them looking for a helms trait or anything else. I am opening them for EC profit period. Remove the ability to profit from them and I stop opening them.
Its a cycle that Cryptic needs to tend... and they do. D - > Zen - > EC ...... its simple make the grind on D annoying... and require it for fleet projects personal reps ect... and people get annoyed and spend $ to get zen. Have items expensive enough in EC and people will grind the EC... and at some point Cryptic hopes they speed there grind with a $ injection of zen.
there are many reasons for this prices change naturally daily supply and demand an entire year has past in your own words, demand for ship has increased supply however is still limited to lockbox winners and very few will open older boxes if you notice most opened boxes are new released ones as everything inside is brand new more opened = more supply after some times passed the box is gone less opened less supply but a demand is there still = price increase.
items being worth less such as? its been a year more then enough time for supply of items as examples alien artifacts to increase while value such as nerfs of nadorc to make them completely worthless to most thats just an example but you can understand.
as for the exchange leave it alone if a limit comes into effect what will happen? its already happening now has been for weeks jem hadar attack ships aren't on the exchange but are still being traded private channels, trading channels, zone chat, trades player to player the value is subjective but what it sells for currently is near 600 mill ec the exchange limit 500 mill, when the exchange no longer provides the ferengi simply get back into there d'koras and move on to different trade routes ;-)
It's all about how much people are willing to pay. If the items don't sell, people will re-list at a lower price.
Just because you don't want to pay that price, or don't think it's worth that price, doesn't mean it's wrong... it's all about how many people are willing to pay the higher price.
Easy peasy
Step 1: Set selling cap, as to prevent anything ever from exceeding said cap, as to prevent price gouging/fixing beyond this point.
This will in turn, prevent any item from ever exceeding said cap, no matter how much of an increase in price, player's try to set for it.
Remember in reality, they could lower, or raise it, but that is at their discretion.
Red area completely contradicts the yellow area, as Dilithium cannot be directly converted to EC's.
Green area, is yes something Cryptic benefits from due to revenue from new Zen purchasing, but not all of the Zen being traded on the exchange is newly purchased Zen, and is in fact freely obtained Zen by Subscription accounts, and even people buying/reselling freely obtained Zen from dilithium grinding.
Yes, if they didn't allow the items currently to sold on the EC exchange, it would spell disaster for them, because no one would want to purchase Zen much, but they also need put a block in place such as the EC cap, for both bank/character, and even the exchange to keep some order in place, and let's not forget to better profit their self.
After all your loss with EC caps, works to Cryptic's advantage by keeping you constantly in the need, to make some form trading as you put it D-> Z-> EC, or better yet Z-> EC.
Either way they win, so who is manipulating who?
Think about this when you consider those, who think they are getting one over on the System, by trying to control the exchange markets.
Praetor of the -RTS- Romulan Tal Shiar fleet!
I do this all the time, I buy Zen when it is cheaply traded, and resell it when the market price shifts up.
Subscriber's like my brother, sell only his freely obtained (500per month) Zen.
Praetor of the -RTS- Romulan Tal Shiar fleet!
This. Many times this.
Guess you do not understand, the reasoning behind multiple farming toons to obtain zen easily for dilithium, or those who have zen that do not need purchase anything anymore, and sell their zen, or maybe the part I mentioned that Cryptic makes money from zen when people actually spend RL money to buy it, but we will just go with you didn't pay that much attention.
Yeah well I didn't put those barricades in place, and nothing is preventing people from using private trading either (at least not now).
If people want to sell them at over 500mill, than that is the route they must take, because until the exchange changes, Cryptic will profit of those who are limited using the exchange system.
Praetor of the -RTS- Romulan Tal Shiar fleet!
I wasn't contradictory at all. Yes you can 100% convert Zen to EC. Of course Cryptic knows this. They encourage it. Are lockbox keys account bound when you pick them up with zen ? Of course they are not. You can purchase keys / fleet mods / doff packs and sell them in game for EC. That is by design. Cryptic hasn't added a slider converter box no... of course not they want a free market to rein so they can sell lock boxes. (the point I was making that you highlighted yellow... is that if you convert all your D into zen to make EC... when something like a sweet 3 pack 5000zen ship pack shows up you are much more likely to spend $ as you have no reserve of zen having converted it already)
As far as in game earned D turning into zen... sure that's the design. There is still an associated cost though. Yes it isn't directly making them $ when someone trades 8000D for 50 or so zen. However it makes it more likely that player will spend $ later for something like a ship pack... or to grab some doff packs during a super rare ship promo ect. It is also keeping people playing the game. There is value to a game company in just keeping you loggin in everyday. Your backside in the seat of course... but also the perception that there are plenty of backsides in the seats to a new player that logs in ect. Cryptic has a formula just like every other game dev for % of $ return on completely 100% free players... We ALL make them money even if we don't spend our own and just drive the fake in game economy by being present. (not to mention share holder reports that love to report total active users of something like STO)
Of course they are manipulating the market.... That is the very point I was making. Some people in the thread seem to think Cryptic has no control of the market at all. So they should cap it down. There is no need to cap anything. It is working EXACTLY AS INTENDED. Prices are exactly where they project them to be in game right now this minute. So why would they be worried about caps. They have a 500mil listing cap and its purpose setup like that. Go play any PWE game and you will see they do the exact same thing... and in all of those games. There are a very small handful of super rare items that come back from time to time. They sell for more then the cap. Its on purpose. They want us to covet the Jem and the Bull... They won't ever be freely offered. Unless they are in need of some extra profit to fudge some quarterly numbers. In which case one or the other (or what ever unicorn mount is the super rare one in those other PWE games) go on special for a few weeks and drive sales.
Cryptics system is pretty smart... and its 100% copies over from PWEs own titles. It works... by keeping all the fake economy turning. They are able to get those handful of "whale" customers that will drop a good amount of $ every month, doing there thing. To be honest I know most people think it sounds crazy... the completely 100% FREE players make Cryptic more money in there PWE cash system. They need a ton of us grinding and creating value on fake things... in order for there handful of $ customers to feel the need to drop $. Really the system is something to be admired, They should use it as a teaching tool in low level economic classes. lol
This.
I read the OP as
"rapid inflation and rapid deflation of items is really hurting ME"
Either the guy is wanting a particular item that costs way more than it did a while ago, or he is wanting to sell an item that is selling for a lot less now than it did a while ago, and he has EC symbols in his eyes.
Either way, suck it up buttercup. That's a free market for you.
Seems you don't understand the system as much as you like to think. The part you forgot to add, is all the F2P grinders, especially the ones that have multiple accounts are actually being manipulated also.
They are basically working hours and hours, doing something monotonous and with little enjoyment and being paid in a small amount of digital currency usable only on one game. If you turned all those hours into real work you could earn actual real $ far exceeding what you can grind, and you could spend it on whatever you liked.
So called 'whale' customers are actually the only honest ones, they don't waste time on grinding because they do enough real work to earn $ to enable them to spend it on the game in the first place.
They don't have a strange idealism that they somehow make more money for cryptic, when in actual fact, everyone is getting just as fleeced as the next guy, whether you use $ or not. It all really boils down to how much you enjoy the game, regardless of your playstyle.
Bottom line, the F2P grinders that always think they know something the common players don't, are actually working for Cryptic for far less than minimum wage. Lol. Enjoy!
The fundamental thing probably is - the state of the Exchange "economy" is fine for Cryptic.