Some tools to follow the market over time would be great. But the Exchange doesn't need to be changed, in my opinion. Prices can only get so high, and then they will drop. I personally, rarely ever use the exchange. We need the game improved in other areas, particularly immersion. I'm still looking for a game that has a universe as large as "EVE Online", immersive as "Earth and Beyond", with the ability to trade among the stars like "Elite", have multiple careers available for you to create characters to participate with, the ability to explore far of places and be centered in the Star Trek lore. I want this game to become more alive and less of a grind. That is why I didn't purchase a Lifetime subscription, but I do pay the monthly fee.
here is a thought.. Keys and VR weapons and Bug ships are so darn expensive not because of admiral bobo or EC farmers or any of the other excuses. they are that expensive because there are people stupid enough to BUY them. the perceived value makes it worth while.
and sorry OP but Cryptic can't ban stupid or there would only be 3 people playing STO.
You want Lock Box ships BoP? it would kill sales entirely ...
No I said that things on the exchange should be bind on Purchase.
This is different.
You win a lockbox ship or a good trait or an excellent doff, good for you.
You can either use it or put it on the exchange.
Once its on the exchange whoever buys it will acquire a bound item. They can use it for their own purpose only. They CANNOT buy it to hoard it and sell it at a vast mark up later when the item is more scarce. (aka what that guy is doing with over 3 doZen nicors)
This would NOT push up prices. People would still open boxes as they can still sell what they win. There wouldn't be a shortage of shiny items - in fact quite the opposite since shinies will only get bought by those who want to use them - not those that want to bank them for a rainy day....
Prices on rare items like lockbox ships are entirely controlled by people doing what you are doing for greed
Yes. They are selling for greed and buyers are buying for greed.
And greed is fine. Like it or not, the entire game revolves around the acquiring of personal property. Like all MMOs, it is entirely greed-centric. I don't want to read another word about silly fanboy 'moneyless federation' stuff like we're actually living in the land of make believe. This is a real product on planet Earth.
If greedy people in doing what they do are demolishing the ingame economy, then steps need to be taken to prevent that outcome. The buyers and sellers themselves do not need to take the steps, and cannot be made of their own free will to take a hit for 'the greater good'. They are doing what they are supposed to do, acquiring 'stuff'. It's up to the developers to keep them on a leash.
Fair warning, this is gonna be long. Read away, but remember that I warned you (Cryptic, I hope you consider at least these concepts regardless).
Ultimately, this is just a video game. It's meant to be enjoyable and relaxing. I personally don't find PvP economics enjoyable and relaxing, but that's potentially just me. It's probably REALLY fun for the very small "1%," but is that good for the game?
I would say no. Complete and total free market capitalism where resources are in any way limited by nature (think of diamonds or oil) and desired/needed will ultimately result in elimination of competition that ensures a healthy economy. Monopolies, trusts, etc. emerge as competitors are either driven out (sometimes bloodily) or turned into allies.
At a much, much simpler level, the same could be said about the "high end" items in this game - lockbox items being the most obvious example. The supply is extremely limited, and over time suppliers run out of supply (boxes disappear, ships get unpacked and used, players quit, etc.) or simply get bought out. Regardless of whether this is intentional or just circumstance, the end result is that more and more "power" gets concentrated in the hands of those few with remaining supply. Enter human nature and the price skyrockets.
I won't try to argue if this is "ethical" or "deserved" - that isn't an argument anyone can win - but I will say that I believe this is as bad to any simple game as it is to the real world economy. In the real world, numerous countries have laws against monopolies, trusts, corruption, etc. because it creates a dangerous concentration of power in the hands of a small group of individuals with no real vested interest in the health of the whole.
An oil baron, for instance, has no significant reason to care about the overall economy of his/her nation. Yes, there's some modest interest in making sure that there's still a country to buy the product, but it's a necessity that will still sell even if people can barely afford to eat. Maybe not at the same rate, but it's still going to sell.
In a game like STO, this is even worse. Those few players with billions or trillions of currency have no real interest at all in the health of the game. They won't even have the slight fallout that an oil baron would see from the country collapsing. If STO dies, those players just move on to another game. Cryptic needs to be very careful about allowing "power" to collect in the hands of people who have no interest whatsoever in ensuring the ongoing health of their game.
You could say that I'm making a false comparison, that ships or Voth Antiproton beam arrays aren't necessities in the game like oil is in reality, and to some extent you're right - no one NEEDS those things to be able to play. However, fun IS a vital necessity to any game.
If, to me, having fun means making an all "Cardassian" crew in a Galor cruiser, but I can't do it because prices are too high and rising on the ship, the lockbox keys, the duty officers to equip, etc. then I just lost some interest in the game. The more things that are equally out of reach (Jem'hadar Attack Ship, Fleet Mark Consultants, 800 Lobi crystals from gods know how many lockbox keys...) the less "fun" I can have with the game, and the more likely other players will experience similar discouragement.
I would suggest that this type of lock-out may well be a leading cause of the death of lots of other online games as new players feel more and more alienated from what they can get and existing players not in that top tier get tired of chasing after the "unobtainium." It's one thing to force players to work towards a goal, it's another to have a goal post that keeps getting further and further away. People give up - fact of life - and in this case that means people will give up on the game. Cryptic definitely needs to be aware of that.
One possible solution, that Cryptic could test without anyone really even knowing (and maybe they already are), would be to seed the market/exchanges with certain high-demand items at a fixed cost. Say an admin account that has unlimited quantity of master keys, zen, plus a few other high value items, and places these items in the appropriate exchanges always at a fixed cost. Energy credits, dilithium, and zen sent into this account through transactions would effectively be removed from the game as the admin account would never buy anything, only be a REMOVABLE vendor if it proves hazardous.
This would serve as a stabilizing force, and could easily be tested with only an item or two to see what the impact is before expanding. Maybe it only happens periodically when prices are getting beyond what is deemed reasonable (like a pressure release), or maybe it's a constant presence that acts as a price set point and minimal source of increasingly rare or impossible to get items.
Some people might claim that's unfair, that "the [insert name] I spent zillions of zen to get from lockbox keys, grinds, whatever SHOULD stay rare and get more valuable," and to a degree they're right. My counter to that would be this is a game that - in order to stick around - needs to continue to attract and retain new players. Putting more and more items out of reach of larger numbers of players directly threatens this longevity.
You are so right, lets let Cryptic sell stuff on the exchange to help the prices on the JHAS, Keys and what not come down. It gives me a reason not to purchase any more zen.
Lets let Cryptic sell stuff on the exchange to help the prices on the JHAS, Keys and what not come down. It gives me a reason not to purchase any more zen.
That's actually not what I would argue for, since that would almost definitely kill the game by killing profitability.
I'm talking more about subtle market control to 1) keep things within reach for players who are willing to spend some money but not hundreds of dollars and 2) prevent "power" from accumulating in the hands of those who have no reason to care about the health of the game.
True, you might have to initially "flood" the market in highly competitive areas like master keys to bring the price down to acceptable levels, but after market correction Cryptic backs out completely or only sells...I don't know, 5 per day, whatever the numbers say keeps things under control... only dialing up activity as critically needed to prevent massive market spikes.
The rest of the supply comes from players spending real money and turning around trying to make a separate profit off of it, thereby Cryptic makes money via third party from a base that otherwise would not be spending.
Of course, you'd have to look at the sales trends to know if that's the case.
If people didnt have limits on number of items they would just list everything at crazy high prices and clog up the auction so you couldn't see all results.
Well the only alternative to this conundrum, would be to create an alternative form of payment for those FEW, who wish to sell beyond the 500mill marks, like selling items for either dilithium, or god help us all zen.
Lets impose universal salary caps... no football, soccer, or basketball player, no engineer or stock market player... Not one person should make over 1 million dollars/pounds/etc... No reward ever for success or rarity... No more diamonds in the rough... ever!
I want a 6-bedroom home, but I want to pay the price of a 3-bedroom home. I'm a physics professor, and I want to make as much money as those football players that barely pass my class make...
You all realize, right, that value is determined by how much someone is willing to pay for something?
CM
"Equipped with his five senses, man explores the universe around him and calls the adventure science." - Edwin Hubble
Lets impose universal salary caps... no football, soccer, or basketball player, no engineer or stock market player... Not one person should make over 1 million dollars/pounds/etc... No reward ever for success or rarity... No more diamonds in the rough... ever!
I want a 6-bedroom home, but I want to pay the price of a 3-bedroom home. I'm a physics professor, and I want to make as much money as those football players that barely pass my class make...
You all realize, right, that value is determined by how much someone is willing to pay for something?
CM
While I tend to agree, that a physics professor should make good money, however society seems to disagree by spending their money on sports instead (not me).
While I will say that the price on a great many things on the exchange are stupidly over priced I don't think the prices should be regulated.
There is always good reason to regulate inflation, or better yet the regulation of greed, and market manipulation, as well as regulating price fixing/gouging.
Everyone can earn that much, even casual players (who make up the majority of subscribers)
That way everyone can have nice things without the addition of an exchange grind.
Also drop all current items above 1 million ec to 1 million ec.
Some people will be mad, but it's for the good of the game and people need to be less greedy.
Perhaps we should all hold hands and sing combaya or something as well.
Seriously though if they added a 1 mil ec post limit the exchange would die thats all. You could go there and get battaries and ship repair parts I guess.
Anything of value will only be an option in the games trade channels.
Unless you also think they should add a 1mil ec limit to trades... in which case the game would die out in a around a week. Give people everything they want and they have no reason to log in. So they stop doing that and find other things to do. Cryptic lucky likes $ so they would never do anything like you propose.
There is no feasible way to regulate the Exchange. Putting a price cap would encourage all items to gradually rise in price until it reaches that cap. Having real people checking up on the Exchange would be a full time job for a TEAM of people, and that is a wasteful drain on resources for an MMO already suffering from shaky servers, rudimentary ground combat, unbalanced space action, and contentious "project-based" overhauls.
How about "Don't buy it if it's expensive"? If the price is ridiculous, don't buy it. Earn it yourself.
The people with the most also have the biggest interest in the game.
The people with the least are the ones with the least vested interest.
I knew someone would try to argue that, and I doubt I can change your mind, but I'll explain why I reject this notion completely.
A vested interest in any game means that you see some real world value from the game itself. No game player will ever see any real world value from the game regardless of how much time or money they put into it - unless they go to extreme lengths to violate the terms of service or someone start getting paid in cash/marketable experience by the company.
Any player can own 95% of the game world, but without a means to turn it into real world currency they have no genuine interest in the game. If the game dies, they're not out anything because - honestly - they don't have anything of real value.
Cryptic employees and investors have a vested interest in the game. Employees draw salaries, investors get dividends, etc.
There has been no diminishing of the buying power of someone who spends money for zen, or who grinds dil and trades it for zen.
The inflation has only been in EC cost, and only reflects the increase in the EC supply.
When keys were 1m each, a galor or d'kora cost 80m. It cost 80 keys.
Keys are now nearly 3m each, and a galor and d'kora cost about 240m. 80 keys.
The people harmed by inflation are the ones who slave and toil in ec mines. They aren't meant to do this though. People are meant to grind dil, not ec.
If you do what you're meant to do, you'll find that your earning potential is undiminished by ec cost inflation.
I don't understand your point here. I'm not sure how you've arrived at what players are "meant to do" in an open world environment.
It almost sounds like you're trying to say that energy credits should be removed from the game, or taken out of the buying possibility for some items, which is a possibility but not how the game is built. I'd say that would even be detrimental to the game's profitability (at least until I could look at some of the sales data to confirm or reject the hypothesis).
Think about this (I'll stick with master keys and lockboxes since that seems to be the big one): Master keys cost zen, a real money equivalent currency that a value has been placed on. Some people (myself included) will never accept the valuation that has been put on these keys, and hence will never spend real money on them.
This doesn't mean Cryptic can't get money from me on this product, they just have to go about it differently. They allow another player who is willing to accept that valuation to spend real money, then turn around and sell it to me either for dilithium (so that I can buy zen in game without using cash) or on the exchange for energy credits. In this way, Cryptic makes "money" off of me, just in a different way.
There are potential holes in that, I admit - biggest one being whether the zen being used to buy the dilithium or key is genuine purchased zen or just the free monthly zen from lifetime subscribers - but with the data currently available there's no way to prove or refute the theories so it'd just be a circular argument.
The problem here is that the more expensive items become at the ground level, the larger the barrier to players not at the top or willing to shell out large sums of real world cash, and hence the less likely they are to stick around despite their potential value.
I admit that a customer willing to fork over hundreds or thousands of dollars a year is more valuable PER CUSTOMER than one only willing to give $20-50/year, but in a healthy business those lower dollar spenders contribute more IN TOTAL to the bottom line because there are vastly more of them. Making it harder and harder for them risks losing that giant pool of money, but you don't want to overcompensate by removing all barriers. It's a balancing act to find the right mix, but right now there does not appear to be any balance at all.
Comments
I would elaborate but by doing so, I would be violating the ToS by getting into politics...
CM
and sorry OP but Cryptic can't ban stupid or there would only be 3 people playing STO.
No I said that things on the exchange should be bind on Purchase.
This is different.
You win a lockbox ship or a good trait or an excellent doff, good for you.
You can either use it or put it on the exchange.
Once its on the exchange whoever buys it will acquire a bound item. They can use it for their own purpose only. They CANNOT buy it to hoard it and sell it at a vast mark up later when the item is more scarce. (aka what that guy is doing with over 3 doZen nicors)
This would NOT push up prices. People would still open boxes as they can still sell what they win. There wouldn't be a shortage of shiny items - in fact quite the opposite since shinies will only get bought by those who want to use them - not those that want to bank them for a rainy day....
...#LLAP...
Yes. They are selling for greed and buyers are buying for greed.
And greed is fine. Like it or not, the entire game revolves around the acquiring of personal property. Like all MMOs, it is entirely greed-centric. I don't want to read another word about silly fanboy 'moneyless federation' stuff like we're actually living in the land of make believe. This is a real product on planet Earth.
If greedy people in doing what they do are demolishing the ingame economy, then steps need to be taken to prevent that outcome. The buyers and sellers themselves do not need to take the steps, and cannot be made of their own free will to take a hit for 'the greater good'. They are doing what they are supposed to do, acquiring 'stuff'. It's up to the developers to keep them on a leash.
Ultimately, this is just a video game. It's meant to be enjoyable and relaxing. I personally don't find PvP economics enjoyable and relaxing, but that's potentially just me. It's probably REALLY fun for the very small "1%," but is that good for the game?
I would say no. Complete and total free market capitalism where resources are in any way limited by nature (think of diamonds or oil) and desired/needed will ultimately result in elimination of competition that ensures a healthy economy. Monopolies, trusts, etc. emerge as competitors are either driven out (sometimes bloodily) or turned into allies.
At a much, much simpler level, the same could be said about the "high end" items in this game - lockbox items being the most obvious example. The supply is extremely limited, and over time suppliers run out of supply (boxes disappear, ships get unpacked and used, players quit, etc.) or simply get bought out. Regardless of whether this is intentional or just circumstance, the end result is that more and more "power" gets concentrated in the hands of those few with remaining supply. Enter human nature and the price skyrockets.
I won't try to argue if this is "ethical" or "deserved" - that isn't an argument anyone can win - but I will say that I believe this is as bad to any simple game as it is to the real world economy. In the real world, numerous countries have laws against monopolies, trusts, corruption, etc. because it creates a dangerous concentration of power in the hands of a small group of individuals with no real vested interest in the health of the whole.
An oil baron, for instance, has no significant reason to care about the overall economy of his/her nation. Yes, there's some modest interest in making sure that there's still a country to buy the product, but it's a necessity that will still sell even if people can barely afford to eat. Maybe not at the same rate, but it's still going to sell.
In a game like STO, this is even worse. Those few players with billions or trillions of currency have no real interest at all in the health of the game. They won't even have the slight fallout that an oil baron would see from the country collapsing. If STO dies, those players just move on to another game. Cryptic needs to be very careful about allowing "power" to collect in the hands of people who have no interest whatsoever in ensuring the ongoing health of their game.
You could say that I'm making a false comparison, that ships or Voth Antiproton beam arrays aren't necessities in the game like oil is in reality, and to some extent you're right - no one NEEDS those things to be able to play. However, fun IS a vital necessity to any game.
If, to me, having fun means making an all "Cardassian" crew in a Galor cruiser, but I can't do it because prices are too high and rising on the ship, the lockbox keys, the duty officers to equip, etc. then I just lost some interest in the game. The more things that are equally out of reach (Jem'hadar Attack Ship, Fleet Mark Consultants, 800 Lobi crystals from gods know how many lockbox keys...) the less "fun" I can have with the game, and the more likely other players will experience similar discouragement.
I would suggest that this type of lock-out may well be a leading cause of the death of lots of other online games as new players feel more and more alienated from what they can get and existing players not in that top tier get tired of chasing after the "unobtainium." It's one thing to force players to work towards a goal, it's another to have a goal post that keeps getting further and further away. People give up - fact of life - and in this case that means people will give up on the game. Cryptic definitely needs to be aware of that.
One possible solution, that Cryptic could test without anyone really even knowing (and maybe they already are), would be to seed the market/exchanges with certain high-demand items at a fixed cost. Say an admin account that has unlimited quantity of master keys, zen, plus a few other high value items, and places these items in the appropriate exchanges always at a fixed cost. Energy credits, dilithium, and zen sent into this account through transactions would effectively be removed from the game as the admin account would never buy anything, only be a REMOVABLE vendor if it proves hazardous.
This would serve as a stabilizing force, and could easily be tested with only an item or two to see what the impact is before expanding. Maybe it only happens periodically when prices are getting beyond what is deemed reasonable (like a pressure release), or maybe it's a constant presence that acts as a price set point and minimal source of increasingly rare or impossible to get items.
Some people might claim that's unfair, that "the [insert name] I spent zillions of zen to get from lockbox keys, grinds, whatever SHOULD stay rare and get more valuable," and to a degree they're right. My counter to that would be this is a game that - in order to stick around - needs to continue to attract and retain new players. Putting more and more items out of reach of larger numbers of players directly threatens this longevity.
I warned you that this would be long.
You are so right, lets let Cryptic sell stuff on the exchange to help the prices on the JHAS, Keys and what not come down. It gives me a reason not to purchase any more zen.
The two are one in the same, otherwise agreed.
Praetor of the -RTS- Romulan Tal Shiar fleet!
That's actually not what I would argue for, since that would almost definitely kill the game by killing profitability.
I'm talking more about subtle market control to 1) keep things within reach for players who are willing to spend some money but not hundreds of dollars and 2) prevent "power" from accumulating in the hands of those who have no reason to care about the health of the game.
True, you might have to initially "flood" the market in highly competitive areas like master keys to bring the price down to acceptable levels, but after market correction Cryptic backs out completely or only sells...I don't know, 5 per day, whatever the numbers say keeps things under control... only dialing up activity as critically needed to prevent massive market spikes.
The rest of the supply comes from players spending real money and turning around trying to make a separate profit off of it, thereby Cryptic makes money via third party from a base that otherwise would not be spending.
Of course, you'd have to look at the sales trends to know if that's the case.
Everyone can earn that much, even casual players (who make up the majority of subscribers)
That way everyone can have nice things without the addition of an exchange grind.
Also drop all current items above 1 million ec to 1 million ec.
Some people will be mad, but it's for the good of the game and people need to be less greedy.
Praetor of the -RTS- Romulan Tal Shiar fleet!
Lets impose universal salary caps... no football, soccer, or basketball player, no engineer or stock market player... Not one person should make over 1 million dollars/pounds/etc... No reward ever for success or rarity... No more diamonds in the rough... ever!
I want a 6-bedroom home, but I want to pay the price of a 3-bedroom home. I'm a physics professor, and I want to make as much money as those football players that barely pass my class make...
You all realize, right, that value is determined by how much someone is willing to pay for something?
CM
Long answer: No, this is not advisable.
Valdus | Charn | Costello | Typhus | Thyran
While I tend to agree, that a physics professor should make good money, however society seems to disagree by spending their money on sports instead (not me).
There is always good reason to regulate inflation, or better yet the regulation of greed, and market manipulation, as well as regulating price fixing/gouging.
Praetor of the -RTS- Romulan Tal Shiar fleet!
Perhaps we should all hold hands and sing combaya or something as well.
Seriously though if they added a 1 mil ec post limit the exchange would die thats all. You could go there and get battaries and ship repair parts I guess.
Anything of value will only be an option in the games trade channels.
Unless you also think they should add a 1mil ec limit to trades... in which case the game would die out in a around a week. Give people everything they want and they have no reason to log in. So they stop doing that and find other things to do. Cryptic lucky likes $ so they would never do anything like you propose.
Now everyone else do the same!
*Double Face Palm* :rolleyes::P
/10char
Praetor of the -RTS- Romulan Tal Shiar fleet!
How about "Don't buy it if it's expensive"? If the price is ridiculous, don't buy it. Earn it yourself.
Captaincy, Excelsior-Class U.S.S. Bianca Beauchamp NCC-99947-F
[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
Okay, I'll start with Common doffs.
*Falls backwards out of chair* :P:P:P:P
/10char
Praetor of the -RTS- Romulan Tal Shiar fleet!
Tribbles next.
I knew someone would try to argue that, and I doubt I can change your mind, but I'll explain why I reject this notion completely.
A vested interest in any game means that you see some real world value from the game itself. No game player will ever see any real world value from the game regardless of how much time or money they put into it - unless they go to extreme lengths to violate the terms of service or someone start getting paid in cash/marketable experience by the company.
Any player can own 95% of the game world, but without a means to turn it into real world currency they have no genuine interest in the game. If the game dies, they're not out anything because - honestly - they don't have anything of real value.
Cryptic employees and investors have a vested interest in the game. Employees draw salaries, investors get dividends, etc.
I don't understand your point here. I'm not sure how you've arrived at what players are "meant to do" in an open world environment.
It almost sounds like you're trying to say that energy credits should be removed from the game, or taken out of the buying possibility for some items, which is a possibility but not how the game is built. I'd say that would even be detrimental to the game's profitability (at least until I could look at some of the sales data to confirm or reject the hypothesis).
Think about this (I'll stick with master keys and lockboxes since that seems to be the big one): Master keys cost zen, a real money equivalent currency that a value has been placed on. Some people (myself included) will never accept the valuation that has been put on these keys, and hence will never spend real money on them.
This doesn't mean Cryptic can't get money from me on this product, they just have to go about it differently. They allow another player who is willing to accept that valuation to spend real money, then turn around and sell it to me either for dilithium (so that I can buy zen in game without using cash) or on the exchange for energy credits. In this way, Cryptic makes "money" off of me, just in a different way.
There are potential holes in that, I admit - biggest one being whether the zen being used to buy the dilithium or key is genuine purchased zen or just the free monthly zen from lifetime subscribers - but with the data currently available there's no way to prove or refute the theories so it'd just be a circular argument.
The problem here is that the more expensive items become at the ground level, the larger the barrier to players not at the top or willing to shell out large sums of real world cash, and hence the less likely they are to stick around despite their potential value.
I admit that a customer willing to fork over hundreds or thousands of dollars a year is more valuable PER CUSTOMER than one only willing to give $20-50/year, but in a healthy business those lower dollar spenders contribute more IN TOTAL to the bottom line because there are vastly more of them. Making it harder and harder for them risks losing that giant pool of money, but you don't want to overcompensate by removing all barriers. It's a balancing act to find the right mix, but right now there does not appear to be any balance at all.