Interesting take on quality... which usually constitutes continuous improvement in the world of business/manufacturing and most industries these days. In order to actually bring some quality then these missions could have been improved or reworked to what was "envisioned", instead of btw we have a foundry update and you can do all the work to make exploration again. There isn't much travel in this game these days as it is. I don't think i'll be moving about much without these anymore. Futhermore... quality tends to link to the simple four corner matrix; including the potential to dissatisfy and the potential to delight. This doesn't delight the players and were not whining over nothing..
To improve quality and content what we need is some new content and quality... not another crafting system that is clearly been reworked from the reputation and doff interfaces - code reuse anyone?
Quality to me is to improve end-game and progress the story further... utilize the star-bases to be something more than gear mines. Overall the game quality has been degrading to the point of boring anyway, so why remove these? In all honesty... I know it's a business and you need to make money... but it's becoming aliens online with no improvements to current and loved fed ships. Rommies have too much crit, which has messed up the fun of other races, especially in pvp.
In short... i'd much prefer that cryptic invested the time into improving pvp, fixing bug fixes since season 5, end-game content etc instead of tinkering with reworked systems or removing old ones that weren't broken to begin with (maybe mundane over time as you say, but fun to revisit every so often). If I remember these weren't bad for dil either.... most likely has something to do with it. Furthermore, I am keen to see what kind of feedback mechanisms you are actually using as they seem to be random, or at things you can but don't want to fix, a poll every so often really doesn't make feedback to bring this game to glory. I think a closer eye in the player base will do Cryptic well. God I hate QQing, but it's starting too annoy me, some of these changes and the lack of forum posts compared to a few years ago (but, you see in the chat channels) indicates a loss of faith on voicing opinions on the forums. Just to note this is called the "Voice of the Customer" look it up :P
Anyway, i'm not leaving the game. Just looking forward to something worth while turning up and it makes me sad the game is kinda going this way, but hey; maybe this will be a positive change. Who knows.
You got to be kidding me!!! You should be expanding space not shrinking it. and not all of us get involve in the PVE queues. Not all of us have the time to visit Foundry. This game was great because of Exploration. The freedom to go where the art would allow.
Do not turn this game into an instance base game! No one likes Instance base games.
Instance base = PVE queues or anything like it.
If you are going to have queues then entrance should be earn by going to that location and participating once the old fashion way.
I do not know who is leading STO now but you do not know what your doing, you must maintain the basic principle of Star Trek as created Gene Roddenberry. Doing things because you can, does not mean they are right. Like this:
"While we are removing part of the game, we hope that this improves the overall quality of STO. In the end we aim to make Star Trek Online something youre excited to be playing every week."
That is the part that makes the game, what does not is all these non improvements, improvements, Reputation a grind. If I was in charge the rep system would be gone.
I would go back through in add in all the stuff that has been taken out. Like the mirror universe intrusions. There is a lot of stuff you have taken out instead of making them work, you must not know how to make them work right.
What is that new Space Exploration game?
I totally agree with you! No Exploration = NOT Star Trek = I will be moving on. And I've been here since Season 1.
I'm following Elite as well, with 400 Billion stars, we would rather need a "Next Generation" to complete the exploration. :P
---
i have done exploration clusters before and as of right now they are no different they are either
shoot 5 groups of enemy ships
shoot 3 or 5 groups of enemy npc's
give 20 random items to a planet and then leave.
THAT ISNT EXPLORATION.
now if cryptic's plan is to use popular foundry missions to make new sectors with missions attached to them (ie making foundry mission official) that would be a boon but the anger isnt that they are going its that they have literally said nothing about any new forms of exploration system that will replace it either now or in the future.
"It appears we have lost our sex appeal, captain."- Tuvok
now if cryptic's plan is to use popular foundry missions to make new sectors with missions attached to them (ie making foundry mission official) that would be a boon...
They haven't said any of that. All they've done is let us use the clusters as "doors," meaning that if you can find our missions, you can enter them at the site of the clusters. That is the only Foundry support so far.
Really, the implication that they were on a mission of exploration is usually in the 'Captain's Log' introduction. What ends up happening is just because of weird stuff they find while doing so. This was true of many episodes.
The lack of variety in what could happen while nosing around was they only thing that really kept the clusters from being STO's 'monster/enemy of the week' type content. In a very basic sense, the formula was correct. Go explore, then something entertaining happens.
Cryptic will NEVER invest efforts and resources to improve anything. Its their way of working. They release new stuff, and thats all. Everything else.. forget about it. Its far easy to remove things that to use your brains and creativity to improve things or create new good ones. And of course, if you going to need money to release or re vamp something, forget about it.
Yeah, that's why they removed all those Klingon War and Borg Invasion missions ... oh wait, they didn't. They invested time and resources to revamp them. Yeah.
Maybe they have something planned to replace exploration, maybe they don't. There are precedents for both possibilities. The best thing we can do right now is stop freaking out and wait to see what they have planned. Then, and only then, will we judge their decision ... hopefully in time to change it if needed.
"Critics who say that the optimistic utopia Star Trek depicted is now outmoded forget the cultural context that gave birth to it: Star Trek was not a manifestation of optimism when optimism was easy. Star Trek declared a hope for a future that nobody stuck in the present could believe in. For all our struggles today, we haven’t outgrown the need for stories like Star Trek. We need tales of optimism, of heroes, of courage and goodness now as much as we’ve ever needed them." -Thomas Marrone
i have done exploration clusters before and as of right now they are no different they are either
shoot 5 groups of enemy ships
shoot 3 or 5 groups of enemy npc's
give 20 random items to a planet and then leave.
THAT ISNT EXPLORATION.
now if cryptic's plan is to use popular foundry missions to make new sectors with missions attached to them (ie making foundry mission official) that would be a boon but the anger isnt that they are going its that they have literally said nothing about any new forms of exploration system that will replace it either now or in the future.
I would not use that "E"word in *this* game at any rate. Semi-dynamic was the word, and that is better than nothing at all.
Free labor not even done by hirelings, is no substitute for actual licensed content, which was the reason for coming here in the first place. Let's not forget that little detail.
There is a great fear of traveling in this Trek game, and that you can quote me on, for sure.
To the question "WHY remove content?"
The dev post was fairly clear on that...they want to increase the average quality of the game. Cluster missions were below that bar. They weren't removed before because
a) when endgame content was scarse, removing these missions was out of the question, though the concept was flawed already at the time the game came out. Despite being called "exploration" the missions are nothng like that.
b) they still served as a way to gather crafting material. With the new crafting system implementing and with it a new way to gain crafting material, the "exploration missions" lost that purpose too.
What remains are repeating missions with very poor gameplay quality...and as any good doctor would suggest, when something serves no purpose and is generaly making the rest of the body sick, you cut it out. Plain and simple.
We are probably looking at a measure that lifts STO from a 66 metascore to a solid 70, possibly more.
To the question, "WHY not create more?"
Now that doesn't hold up to evidence, there is content added to the game practically each quarter...an impressive rate actually.
Now people may not like those implementations, still they qualify as "new content"
My specualtion would be that something is going to replace the "exploration" part of this game sooner or later. Personaly i rather have something i enjoy in a year or more, than something awefull, uninteresting, and accord to cryptic, something deterrent to new customers, remain in the game.
Now the concept of foundry as "exploration" is something really true to trek, imho...but it certainly needs some "moderators" to select those missions. That is where the community is asked to cooperate to increase the quality of the game for everybody.
Wellcome to the 2-nd era of D'Angelo.
This is where they tell you how to play, what to play and when to play! If by any mysterious chance you find something to play that is not part of their plan for what you should be playing, rest assured it will be removed. They wouldn't want you to lose yourself in so much content anyway.
What, you don't like the sound of it? Boo hoo, too bad, you can always scram for what they care.
This. The removal of the genesis system is the worst decision they made up to date.
And it's not about removing bugged missions - whoever doesn't get the impact this decision has (let alone in a Star Trek game) won't understand that, but there was a time before "MOAR DPS!" when we could level our diplomacy accolades doing exploration and diplomacy missions, for example.
It is true that the exploration system was outdated - but I ask you whose bloody fault is this? The system could have simply been reworked, added new tilesets, variables, missions, rewards and features. Even sell it via an Exploration Expansion. But letting a system rot (which many players still enjoy because that's what pulled them into the game) and then claiming "it's broken TRIBBLE, we remove it to improve our game" is hypocrite. Pushing lame excuses like "players get lost in exploration missions" or "the game is too big, new players are scared and confused" is another poor move we better don't talk about...
^ Memory Alpha.org is not canon. It's a open wiki with arbitrary rules. Only what can be cited from an episode is. ^
"No. Men do not roar. Women roar. Then they hurl heavy objects... and claw at you." -Worf, son of Mogh
"A filthy, mangy beast, but in its bony breast beat the heart of a warrior" - "faithful" (...) "but ever-ready to follow the call of the wild." - Martok, about a Targ
"That pig smelled horrid. A sweet-sour, extremely pungent odor. I showered and showered, and it took me a week to get rid of it!" - Robert Justman, appreciating Emmy-Lou
Then, they should write down why people is whinning, and do something about it.. dont you think? :P, if people is whinning because they dont like the way this game is heading, they should do something about it.. right? but they dont.. just the opposite... and btw, are you aware that maybe the mods are the only ones who visit the forums, right? lol.
Right you are! Basic good business, superior customer service 101: take the customers' problems, complaints, and suggestions -- seriously act upon them in quick order. Which PWE has yet to learn. Devs, don't give us new, bugged, crappy grinds. Enhance the fun missions! Or the new MMO games that are launching soon are going to gain PWE's impending business losses. Either give the customers what they want, with excellence, or suffer for lack-luster performance. That's the nature of business. And given that PWE just gutted the core of Star Trek -- exploration -- people like me, who take Gene Roddenberry's vision seriously, there is no reason to stick around. And I've been here since Season 1. This isn't supposed to be a grindfest; it is supposed to be a fun adventure to boldly explore strange new worlds and to seek out new civilizations.
They haven't said any of that. All they've done is let us use the clusters as "doors," meaning that if you can find our missions, you can enter them at the site of the clusters. That is the only Foundry support so far.
i know but as i also said they haven't said if they even plan to replace the so called exploration the point was if they incorporated something like this or similar to the foundry then it would help yes some could call it lazy as it makes us have to do the work but i have played many foundry missions that are way way above those cluster missions.
"It appears we have lost our sex appeal, captain."- Tuvok
Ive mentioned this before but i think its relevant on this matter of removing content.
STO has peaked what i mean is since LoR this game will not get any better then it is right now sure there will be revamps and a few additions here and there.
But im betting there wont be a majr change along the lines of LoR again as for the removal of content and why.
Once a game peaks a company will begin to think of future projects aka other games and where their resources should be moved to.
So once a new pet project comes aong the company wil want to move there resources from one thats peaked to one that is beggining.
Therefore this game is removing content so that it makes it easier to maintain this game with fewer resources so that they can be funneled into the next big thing.
in short over time this game will release revamps but they wil also remove things its a sliming down of a game so they can focus attention on thier next project.
Ok. Fine. But what about a new exploration part in STO? You do know, that exploration is and always have been the heart of Star Trek? Or is STO just getting even more pew-pew and less core trek. Again?
My specualtion would be that something is going to replace the "exploration" part of this game sooner or later.
Seriously, this needs to stop. Dev Blog 29 addresses this. They're NOT replacing it with anything. They're putting the assets into the foundry and calling it a day. The Foundry is what they say is their ORIGINAL INTENTION for exploration. So they've now hitched it to the foundry.
They're done. They just said so.
There's no new exploration revamp coming. Never was.
How anyone can continue to think that they have some super secret plan to replace and improve this after Dev Blog 29 is just insane.
How anyone can continue to think that they have some super secret plan to replace and improve this after Dev Blog 29 is just insane.
Yup. But one must bear in mind that this forum is pretty much an insane asylum all around. See "T5 Connie/Miranda/Oberth," "Landing your starship on a planet," yada yada yada.
Seriously, this needs to stop. Dev Blog 29 addresses this. They're NOT replacing it with anything. They're putting the assets into the foundry and calling it a day. The Foundry is what they say is their ORIGINAL INTENTION for exploration. So they've now hitched it to the foundry.
They're done. They just said so.
There's no new exploration revamp coming. Never was.
How anyone can continue to think that they have some super secret plan to replace and improve this after Dev Blog 29 is just insane.
Well, there is the knowledge that:
A. They recognize it's a weakness of the game.
B. There is an expansion coming, and it's not a new faction.
I can see why folks would connect the dots. You are right though. All of it reminds me of the assumption that the foundry team would return to STO some day, because our toolset is still beta.
Seriously, this needs to stop. Dev Blog 29 addresses this. They're NOT replacing it with anything. They're putting the assets into the foundry and calling it a day. The Foundry is what they say is their ORIGINAL INTENTION for exploration. So they've now hitched it to the foundry.
They're done. They just said so.
There's no new exploration revamp coming. Never was.
How anyone can continue to think that they have some super secret plan to replace and improve this after Dev Blog 29 is just insane.
... puts the game into maintenance mode. Thing is, all the other MMO companies out there tend to maintain their product. Not remove chunks of it.
Then again, Cryptic has been sold twice now, so that speaks to their organization and its development over the years.
Im thinking they are removing chunks of the game so the server itsef is less likley to crass as much thus removing alot of the manpower and resources needed to just keeping the server up and running.
when a game goes into maintenance mode thats when the end is in sight not the case at this point in time for STO.
Some will agree with the fact the game has peaked some wont and some players will be completley oblivious to the fact altogether.
You know, I never did these exploration clusters. Except for doff missions. Certainly not for the randomly generated stuff that was "meh" at best. I wish the exploration was still there and done better, but it was what it was.
I do think they should fix exploration though. As it is a core part of Star Trek.
While I understand what the Devs are saying in that post, I think removing exploration is a horrible idea. keep the existing system while you fix it. Removing it just sounds like you're being lazy (and making an excuse).
Not sure we needed another thread on this, but I won't miss them either. A bad foundry mission is better than "Explore Unknown System" followed by "Hello, Starfleet, where are our supplies? You are late with your scheduled delivery."
To the question "WHY remove content?"
The dev post was fairly clear on that...they want to increase the average quality of the game. Cluster missions were below that bar. They weren't removed before because
a) when endgame content was scarse, removing these missions was out of the question, though the concept was flawed already at the time the game came out. Despite being called "exploration" the missions are nothng like that.
b) they still served as a way to gather crafting material. With the new crafting system implementing and with it a new way to gain crafting material, the "exploration missions" lost that purpose too.
What remains are repeating missions with very poor gameplay quality...and as any good doctor would suggest, when something serves no purpose and is generaly making the rest of the body sick, you cut it out. Plain and simple.
We are probably looking at a measure that lifts STO from a 66 metascore to a solid 70, possibly more.
To the question, "WHY not create more?"
Now that doesn't hold up to evidence, there is content added to the game practically each quarter...an impressive rate actually.
Now people may not like those implementations, still they qualify as "new content"
My specualtion would be that something is going to replace the "exploration" part of this game sooner or later. Personaly i rather have something i enjoy in a year or more, than something awefull, uninteresting, and accord to cryptic, something deterrent to new customers, remain in the game.
Now the concept of foundry as "exploration" is something really true to trek, imho...but it certainly needs some "moderators" to select those missions. That is where the community is asked to cooperate to increase the quality of the game for everybody.
Taking exploration out from a star trek game take this game from a barely 66 on a generous day, to less 50.
Delivering supplies to citizens waiting for them in "unknown" systems was infinitely better than the "scan 4 objects on this giant ground map, in fog, with no help from the minimap" missions. I have, in my life, literally watched paint dry, and I can say without hesitation that it is more exciting than those missions.
Comments
To improve quality and content what we need is some new content and quality... not another crafting system that is clearly been reworked from the reputation and doff interfaces - code reuse anyone?
Quality to me is to improve end-game and progress the story further... utilize the star-bases to be something more than gear mines. Overall the game quality has been degrading to the point of boring anyway, so why remove these? In all honesty... I know it's a business and you need to make money... but it's becoming aliens online with no improvements to current and loved fed ships. Rommies have too much crit, which has messed up the fun of other races, especially in pvp.
In short... i'd much prefer that cryptic invested the time into improving pvp, fixing bug fixes since season 5, end-game content etc instead of tinkering with reworked systems or removing old ones that weren't broken to begin with (maybe mundane over time as you say, but fun to revisit every so often). If I remember these weren't bad for dil either.... most likely has something to do with it. Furthermore, I am keen to see what kind of feedback mechanisms you are actually using as they seem to be random, or at things you can but don't want to fix, a poll every so often really doesn't make feedback to bring this game to glory. I think a closer eye in the player base will do Cryptic well. God I hate QQing, but it's starting too annoy me, some of these changes and the lack of forum posts compared to a few years ago (but, you see in the chat channels) indicates a loss of faith on voicing opinions on the forums. Just to note this is called the "Voice of the Customer" look it up :P
Anyway, i'm not leaving the game. Just looking forward to something worth while turning up and it makes me sad the game is kinda going this way, but hey; maybe this will be a positive change. Who knows.
I totally agree with you! No Exploration = NOT Star Trek = I will be moving on. And I've been here since Season 1.
i have done exploration clusters before and as of right now they are no different they are either
shoot 5 groups of enemy ships
shoot 3 or 5 groups of enemy npc's
give 20 random items to a planet and then leave.
THAT ISNT EXPLORATION.
now if cryptic's plan is to use popular foundry missions to make new sectors with missions attached to them (ie making foundry mission official) that would be a boon but the anger isnt that they are going its that they have literally said nothing about any new forms of exploration system that will replace it either now or in the future.
"It appears we have lost our sex appeal, captain."- Tuvok
They haven't said any of that. All they've done is let us use the clusters as "doors," meaning that if you can find our missions, you can enter them at the site of the clusters. That is the only Foundry support so far.
Here, Fixed it for you
Yeah, that's why they removed all those Klingon War and Borg Invasion missions ... oh wait, they didn't. They invested time and resources to revamp them. Yeah.
Maybe they have something planned to replace exploration, maybe they don't. There are precedents for both possibilities. The best thing we can do right now is stop freaking out and wait to see what they have planned. Then, and only then, will we judge their decision ... hopefully in time to change it if needed.
"Critics who say that the optimistic utopia Star Trek depicted is now outmoded forget the cultural context that gave birth to it: Star Trek was not a manifestation of optimism when optimism was easy. Star Trek declared a hope for a future that nobody stuck in the present could believe in. For all our struggles today, we haven’t outgrown the need for stories like Star Trek. We need tales of optimism, of heroes, of courage and goodness now as much as we’ve ever needed them."
-Thomas Marrone
Compared to "We're making the game better by removing stuff" doing nothing would be an improvement. :rolleyes:
I would not use that "E"word in *this* game at any rate. Semi-dynamic was the word, and that is better than nothing at all.
Free labor not even done by hirelings, is no substitute for actual licensed content, which was the reason for coming here in the first place. Let's not forget that little detail.
There is a great fear of traveling in this Trek game, and that you can quote me on, for sure.
---
The dev post was fairly clear on that...they want to increase the average quality of the game. Cluster missions were below that bar. They weren't removed before because
a) when endgame content was scarse, removing these missions was out of the question, though the concept was flawed already at the time the game came out. Despite being called "exploration" the missions are nothng like that.
b) they still served as a way to gather crafting material. With the new crafting system implementing and with it a new way to gain crafting material, the "exploration missions" lost that purpose too.
What remains are repeating missions with very poor gameplay quality...and as any good doctor would suggest, when something serves no purpose and is generaly making the rest of the body sick, you cut it out. Plain and simple.
We are probably looking at a measure that lifts STO from a 66 metascore to a solid 70, possibly more.
To the question, "WHY not create more?"
Now that doesn't hold up to evidence, there is content added to the game practically each quarter...an impressive rate actually.
Now people may not like those implementations, still they qualify as "new content"
My specualtion would be that something is going to replace the "exploration" part of this game sooner or later. Personaly i rather have something i enjoy in a year or more, than something awefull, uninteresting, and accord to cryptic, something deterrent to new customers, remain in the game.
Now the concept of foundry as "exploration" is something really true to trek, imho...but it certainly needs some "moderators" to select those missions. That is where the community is asked to cooperate to increase the quality of the game for everybody.
This. The removal of the genesis system is the worst decision they made up to date.
And it's not about removing bugged missions - whoever doesn't get the impact this decision has (let alone in a Star Trek game) won't understand that, but there was a time before "MOAR DPS!" when we could level our diplomacy accolades doing exploration and diplomacy missions, for example.
It is true that the exploration system was outdated - but I ask you whose bloody fault is this? The system could have simply been reworked, added new tilesets, variables, missions, rewards and features. Even sell it via an Exploration Expansion. But letting a system rot (which many players still enjoy because that's what pulled them into the game) and then claiming "it's broken TRIBBLE, we remove it to improve our game" is hypocrite. Pushing lame excuses like "players get lost in exploration missions" or "the game is too big, new players are scared and confused" is another poor move we better don't talk about...
Get the Forums Enhancement Extension!
Right you are! Basic good business, superior customer service 101: take the customers' problems, complaints, and suggestions -- seriously act upon them in quick order. Which PWE has yet to learn. Devs, don't give us new, bugged, crappy grinds. Enhance the fun missions! Or the new MMO games that are launching soon are going to gain PWE's impending business losses. Either give the customers what they want, with excellence, or suffer for lack-luster performance. That's the nature of business. And given that PWE just gutted the core of Star Trek -- exploration -- people like me, who take Gene Roddenberry's vision seriously, there is no reason to stick around. And I've been here since Season 1. This isn't supposed to be a grindfest; it is supposed to be a fun adventure to boldly explore strange new worlds and to seek out new civilizations.
i know but as i also said they haven't said if they even plan to replace the so called exploration the point was if they incorporated something like this or similar to the foundry then it would help yes some could call it lazy as it makes us have to do the work but i have played many foundry missions that are way way above those cluster missions.
"It appears we have lost our sex appeal, captain."- Tuvok
This is Cryptic we're talking about- realistically, it's more like "...later, or much later, or most likely much, much, much later."
STO has peaked what i mean is since LoR this game will not get any better then it is right now sure there will be revamps and a few additions here and there.
But im betting there wont be a majr change along the lines of LoR again as for the removal of content and why.
Once a game peaks a company will begin to think of future projects aka other games and where their resources should be moved to.
So once a new pet project comes aong the company wil want to move there resources from one thats peaked to one that is beggining.
Therefore this game is removing content so that it makes it easier to maintain this game with fewer resources so that they can be funneled into the next big thing.
in short over time this game will release revamps but they wil also remove things its a sliming down of a game so they can focus attention on thier next project.
It happens its just business
---
Aren't all the missions in the "exploration" sectors stored at this point and *not* procedurally generated dynamically?
Seriously, this needs to stop. Dev Blog 29 addresses this. They're NOT replacing it with anything. They're putting the assets into the foundry and calling it a day. The Foundry is what they say is their ORIGINAL INTENTION for exploration. So they've now hitched it to the foundry.
They're done. They just said so.
There's no new exploration revamp coming. Never was.
How anyone can continue to think that they have some super secret plan to replace and improve this after Dev Blog 29 is just insane.
... puts the game into maintenance mode. Thing is, all the other MMO companies out there tend to maintain their product. Not remove chunks of it.
Then again, Cryptic has been sold twice now, so that speaks to their organization and its development over the years.
Yup. But one must bear in mind that this forum is pretty much an insane asylum all around. See "T5 Connie/Miranda/Oberth," "Landing your starship on a planet," yada yada yada.
Well, there is the knowledge that:
A. They recognize it's a weakness of the game.
B. There is an expansion coming, and it's not a new faction.
I can see why folks would connect the dots. You are right though. All of it reminds me of the assumption that the foundry team would return to STO some day, because our toolset is still beta.
Pure speculation, and given the track record...
Except that in connect the dots you connect them in order. "1, 2, 3, 4..."
The dots you say people are connecting are more like "427, 17, 2984, 5, 42, 13, 824566, 289..."
^ This 100%
Im thinking they are removing chunks of the game so the server itsef is less likley to crass as much thus removing alot of the manpower and resources needed to just keeping the server up and running.
when a game goes into maintenance mode thats when the end is in sight not the case at this point in time for STO.
Some will agree with the fact the game has peaked some wont and some players will be completley oblivious to the fact altogether.
I do think they should fix exploration though. As it is a core part of Star Trek.
Taking exploration out from a star trek game take this game from a barely 66 on a generous day, to less 50.
Post is as redundant as thread. "Rest In Peace in peace?" :rolleyes: