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Official Discussion Thread: Season 9.5 Crafting Update

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    captaind3captaind3 Member Posts: 2,449 Arc User
    edited July 2014
    So basically we are getting a half finished product,something Cryptic is notorious for,and we get to 'test' it for 6 to 12 months before they turn it into something semi-useful.Thanks,I'll pass.

    Compared to the Reputation system,leveling R&D is a nightmare.But you forget the most important aspect....the traits aren't all that good compared to what is already available,and remember,you can only have so many traits active at any one time,you will have to give something up to get the 2% damage increase on beams...

    The reason for removing the clusters is one of numbers...there are 2000+ cluster exploration maps,and they would have to go through each and every one to update them with the new crafting mats.It's for cheaper for them to just remove the maps and replace them with something completely new in 1 or 2 years time.

    "They have to monetise some things?" *facepalm*

    Ok,read this next part again gathering mats....



    and what you get from the c-store....



    The one thing you need,is the one thing you can't farm or create....and yes I said need,because the amount of junk items you will create without the catalists will make crafting very,very expensive.

    The weirdest thing about this is that by and large they don't need to change over the particle traces to components. Lest we all forget they already have a mechanism in the game to swiftly and easily convert traces into materials. They could literally have done nothing and we would still be able to convert traces into Mats and we're golden. It's also a natural extension of the fact that we need components to make the final items.

    My main problem is that apparently there are mats that are only available from C-Store packs. I find this a troubling break in policy for the devs. Cryptic has always rightfully prided itself on the fact that you acquire everything you would need in game, in the game. And while I understand that you can covert dilthium->Zen and purchase the packs, this still seems like an uncomfortable change. I have to collect all these materials and components and then I have to buy a pack to acquire final components? That's never happened before.

    trelane87 wrote: »
    Yes you get a common quality ferengi Aegis doff... I wish I was lying:

    http://i.imgur.com/dHFbqIY.png
    I was wondering where he came from.
    valiant797 wrote: »
    Generally, I'm in favor of the way forward here. I'm a little cheesed that all my hard earned research is now worthless and I'll have to start all over again. But I have a ton of materials in my bank, so meh. Speaking of which, glad that I'll actually have room in my bank after a ton of conversion is done.

    I have a few concerns:
    1) I am not so much concerned about the removal of exploration clusters (scan 5, kill 7) as I am removing the empty space to search for materials. When I was farming, I did enjoy hopping into my runabout and scanning the heck out of anomalies. It may have been small, but it did actually give a feeling of exploration.



    2) Ugh. Really. I'm honestly burned out on PvE queues. Between grinding for marks (fleet and reputation) and looking fondly back when I leveled my character with story missions (remember story missions? because the game actually has a really good storyline. Three of them even!) I would be perfectly happy with some other way. I mean, I kind of get it (yay, salvage!).

    Referring to my earlier point. That's what I liked about farming in the exploration clusters. I felt like I was boldly going somewhere and searching for anomalies. Not just shooting some junior officer out a torpedo tube and telling him to do it for me. I mean a shuttle... yeah...



    3) Okay. Finally. If I got dilithium for replaying story missions, I would probably replay the heck out of some of them. Heck I'd love to get dilithium and/or material packages for revisiting the patrol mission planets (remember those?). Go to random planet, play mission on that planet, get materials and dilithium for doing so. What's not to love about that?!

    (mildly off topic)
    That's probably the biggest complaint with my play group. We don't replay story mission because there's no benefit in moving our "end game" forward. No marks for various reputations or fleet. No dilithium to help move our projects along. So we grind... ugh.
    (and we're back!)

    All that said. I am all for removing dilithium from the crafting system. Dilithium was supposed to be the "time" currency. But the crafting itself is a time sink. So, we have time on top of time. I'd be perfectly happy is some crafting took (reasonably) longer and there was no dilithium cost.

    I can appreciate them wanting to play the adventure zones that they have worked so hard on and they can be a lot of fun. I also imagine they are a lot more cost effective for time to make than actual story missions like Feature Episodes. But seriously, I would much rather play a story mission than an adventure zone. Can we at least get dilithium rewards for the Feature Episodes?
    tumblr_mr1jc2hq2T1rzu2xzo9_r1_400.gif
    "Rise like Lions after slumber, In unvanquishable number, Shake your chains to earth like dew, Which in sleep had fallen on you-Ye are many — they are few"
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    sistericsisteric Member Posts: 768 Arc User
    edited July 2014
    So I logged in again last night to see how the crafting changes are going to affect me. I went from a 97 days to cap one school to 205 days to do the same. This assumes no dillithium usage, no bonus xp, and unlimited supply of materials. So now I can't move up all of my toons because I can't collect enough blue material on toon fast enough. But between all 6 toons I have currently are going to funnel the stuff into one character. Even so, I'm looking at 3.5 YEARS to max all seven schools. Crafting has quit being fun and is now a job.

    They need to change this back so that the fun returns and it's potential usefulness remains.
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    venkouvenkou Member Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited July 2014
    I have decided to stop the R&D system at level 5. Since everything is now way too expensive and time consuming (timegates), I have plans on investing my money into something else.

    I am going to still play "Star Trek: Online"; however, my days of obsessively grinding and buying zen are now over. $275 in zen purchases is enough. I have paid my way.

    I am thinking about buying another "Star Trek: TNG Series" novel.

    I might even preorder "Dragon Age: inquisition".

    "removing oneself from the equation" ~ Kevin Flynn

    Sometimes the best solution is to do nothing.

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    captaind3captaind3 Member Posts: 2,449 Arc User
    edited July 2014
    trelane87 wrote: »
    Yes you get a common quality ferengi Aegis doff... I wish I was lying:

    http://i.imgur.com/dHFbqIY.png

    So after looking at my roster again, my Gumarre is blue quality. :confused:
    tumblr_mr1jc2hq2T1rzu2xzo9_r1_400.gif
    "Rise like Lions after slumber, In unvanquishable number, Shake your chains to earth like dew, Which in sleep had fallen on you-Ye are many — they are few"
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    rickpaaarickpaaa Member Posts: 637 Arc User
    edited July 2014
    captaind3 wrote: »
    My main problem is that apparently there are mats that are only available from C-Store packs. I find this a troubling break in policy for the devs. Cryptic has always rightfully prided itself on the fact that you acquire everything you would need in game, in the game. And while I understand that you can covert dilthium->Zen and purchase the packs, this still seems like an uncomfortable change. I have to collect all these materials and components and then I have to buy a pack to acquire final components? That's never happened before.

    It is probably more like you have to buy a C-Store pack for a chance to get the very rare materials that you need. Getting what you need will be akin to getting a lock box ship, and when you do set you hand to crafting, you will gamble that the outcome is what you really wanted.
    giphy.gif
    Member since December 2009


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    breadandcircusesbreadandcircuses Member Posts: 2,355 Arc User
    edited July 2014
    captaind3 wrote: »
    So after looking at my roster again, my Gumarre is blue quality. :confused:

    He is. The image and post you found were based on the initial version of him on Tribble. They also altered the flavor text to make it a little less ridiculous. You notice that the Holodeck version has him working on the Aegis Project, rather than with Professor Aegis? That is a good example of responding to Tribble feedback, unlike other elements of Season 9.5. Still, you've got to get to crafting level 15 before that doff actually matters, and you can't run more than one 20 hr Research project... but at least you won't accidentally toss him into a Fleet Holding.

    More responsiveness like Gumarre's improvements, please :D
    rickpaaa wrote: »
    It is probably more like you have to buy a C-Store pack for a chance to get the very rare materials that you need. Getting what you need will be akin to getting a lock box ship, and when you do set you hand to crafting, you will gamble that the outcome is what you really wanted.

    You aren't supposed to have to buy the C-Store pack. It's apparently a bug that both Borg and Voth Space Elites award Trellium-K and nothing awards Creylon. If I were more motivated I'd find the post... but I'm not :P
    Ym9x9Ji.png
    meimeitoo wrote: »
    I do not like Geko ether.
    iconians wrote: »
    With each passing day I wonder if I stepped into an alternate reality. The Cubs win the world series. Donald Trump is President. Britain leaves the EU. STO gets a dedicated PvP season. Engineers are "out of control" in STO.​​
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    thlaylierahthlaylierah Member Posts: 2,985 Arc User
    edited July 2014
    My response to all time gated material:

    Log into STO, set up DOffs and Crafting, play current event.

    Log out of STO and go play other games and do other things.

    Return 20 hours later and repeat.

    "Since Time gating came to STO, I've cut my gaming in half" (actually less, more like 10%)

    Working as intended?
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    arrmateysarrmateys Member Posts: 466 Arc User
    edited July 2014
    i think all they care about is daily log ins they can use as some kind of player base size measurement, not actually playing it, so i guess it does work as intended.
    Now clowns, that's another story. They scare the cr​ap out of me.
    We fight them too. Entire armies spilling out of Volkswagens.
    We do our best to fight them off, but they keep sending them in.
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    sirmaydaysirmayday Member Posts: 535 Arc User
    edited July 2014
    Time gating as a phenomenon in online gaming is more about habituating play time than anything else. Perfect World and Cryptic like it when players stay logged in (and active) for long periods of time, but they love it when players log in every day. It's the some principle that made Zynga millions (billions?) and made them an obnoxiously influential member of the video game development community, and could even likely be traced back to Pop Cap, if not further.

    They're making STO playing a daily habit to reinforce continued playing when a player might otherwise have played less, and as an element of the online gaming landscape, habituation's neither new nor going anywhere anytime soon.
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    robeasomrobeasom Member Posts: 1,911 Arc User
    edited July 2014
    This Crafting is making me want to play STO less and less the only reason I have been on everyday so far is for the dilithium event. gettng bonus dilithium on 4 Tier V reps loving it. Also trading in all the useless cybernetic consoles and isomorphic sprays.
    However I have just been using the 20 hou experience.

    1. It is cheaper
    2. I have run on of Rudibdum (This is spelt wrong.)

    Yes you can get it from missions and rubbish like that but all I seem to get is common matierials and this is a rare matierial. I have stopped putting money into STO after Season 7 and have been refining dilithium to get the romulan ship.

    However this debacle of a crafting system is making me change to my 360 and play other games and actually is making me wait for the new Star Trek Timelines game that is currently in production.

    Come on Cryptic do something for the players not for your wallet as soon you will lose more players as less and less will log in everyday and will move to other things on event it every three weeks is not the way to do things and all this ending grind. I already think STO has broken the record for that in a MMO. I already have a job in my spare time I rather do something to relax and ths game no longer offers that.
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    mustrumridcully0mustrumridcully0 Member Posts: 12,963 Arc User
    edited July 2014
    DOFF UI improvement suggestions
    (1) Filtering
    The DOFF filter needs a "none means all" logic and use this as default starting point. Manually deselecting every DOFF category is way too cumbersome. Or at least have an option "check only requested DOFFs" or something like that, that selects only the DOFFs listed for the task.

    (2) Hide already selected DOFFs
    Also, DOFFs I already selected for the assignment should either not appear in the DOFF list at all, or be marked as already taken in some way.

    (3) Reduce the amount of clicks to fill assignment slots.
    Also, the advantage of the old DOFF asignment system was that you moved directly to the next DOFF once you selected a slot - that was (if you knew what you were doing) a lot faster than selecting the next slot via mouse. You may want to have some kind of system so that a player can get to the next assignment more quickly, maybe add a "Assign And Go to Next" button to confirm a selection and open the next assignment slot.
    Star Trek Online Advancement: You start with lowbie gear, you end with Lobi gear.
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    mustrumridcully0mustrumridcully0 Member Posts: 12,963 Arc User
    edited July 2014
    Actually, that isn't why. The reason people level their crafting with the 20h daily is really far more simple: Because the alternative involves CAMPING OUT IN FRONT OF YOUR COMPUTER 24/7, as there are no options to produce larger, longer batches of equipment. The fact that all of the stuff you could possibly produce at low levels is completely worthless is just icing. It wouldn't really matter whether the stuff was useful or not. If you wanted to level crafting, it's either stacking dailies (now nerfed), or 24/7 trashmill, because there are no alternative long-duration projects that produce XP at reasonable cost.

    Perhaps, but there's a catch: If those craftings cannot be batch queued, and do not have long durations, they are untenable as a mode of leveling because you would have to camp in front of the computer and constantly queue new instructions. In any event, crafting bulk items ONE AT A TIME is just ungodly annoying.

    I see your point. Maybe these "craft consumables" task should be cheap (but not as heap as the 20h project), but last 20h, too?
    (If a single crafting step can produce, say, 5-30 consumables depending on result, for personal use, a 20h rythm would probably be more than sufficient, and if there is one for each type of research category, also suffice for some limited exchange trading.)


    That said - I think even a 4h "end-game-useful-consumable" would make the treadmill more bearably for at least some players - the people that do crafting not just because it gives you the awesomesauce super gear, but because they generally like the idea of crafting stuff. They get to do their thing while they slowly level up.
    It would not be enough for everyone, that is what you are probably right about. For everyone else, it's a bit like using the Nukura Tribble to level up the Tholian reputation. ;)
    Star Trek Online Advancement: You start with lowbie gear, you end with Lobi gear.
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    sheldonlcoopersheldonlcooper Member Posts: 4,042 Arc User
    edited July 2014
    I like the idea behind this rework of crafting a lot. We can finally craft useful things, especially to try out new builds without spending millions of ec.

    However, it needs a fix to be workable. It is simply not possible to get the materials required without spending way more than it would have cost in ec just to buy the stuff we want.

    By the time we reach level 15 in appx 3 months we should have like 20-30 very rare materials each. As it is I will be very lucky to have 10 and ZERO craylon. Please greatly increase the VR drop. I'm more than willing to grind stfs but it's pointless as it is now. Also put craylon into the game and when we buy packs give us a choice of materials to buy. I will never buy a pack for a chance to get them when I'm sure 80% of the boxes will give trellium.

    These are must fixes to make a compelling and viable product.
    Captain Jean-Luc Picard: "We think we've come so far. Torture of heretics, burning of witches, it's all ancient history. Then - before you can blink an eye - suddenly it threatens to start all over again."

    "With the first link, the chain is forged. The first speech censured, the first thought forbidden, the first freedom denied, chains us all irrevocably."

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    argent007argent007 Member Posts: 220 Arc User
    edited July 2014
    Hey, noticed something regarding the ability to craft science consoles, and that is that you guys forgot the entry for the Emitter Amplifier console....
    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
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    thlaylierahthlaylierah Member Posts: 2,985 Arc User
    edited July 2014
    Actually STO is not bad for a Browser game.
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    champion1701champion1701 Member Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited July 2014
    Actually STO is not bad for a Browser game.

    STO isn't a browser game....
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    thlaylierahthlaylierah Member Posts: 2,985 Arc User
    edited July 2014
    STO isn't a browser game....

    Actually with timegating, microtransactions and content limited to forcing microtransactions it is.

    I play Trexels on my GF's Ipad and the only difference is that you can still use your Connie as an endgame ship and you can actually customize your ship's interior.
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    illuminarchyilluminarchy Member Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited July 2014
    Just wondering why I can log-in to my accounts, but STO will not get past the loading screen?
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    champion1701champion1701 Member Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited July 2014
    Actually with timegating, microtransactions and content limited to forcing microtransactions it is.

    I play Trexels on my GF's Ipad and the only difference is that you can still use your Connie as an endgame ship and you can actually customize your ship's interior.

    Bowser Games are played from your web browser: IE, Chrome or Firefox...

    STO is a client based game, there is a big difference. I wish STO was a bowser game that wasn't so resource thirsty. I shouldn't need a $3000 computer to play this game on max settings.
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    =/\=USS Lindsey Stirling =/\= NCC-116747 =/\=

    =/\= Liberty Task Force =/\= Diplomatic Advisor =/\=
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    arrmateysarrmateys Member Posts: 466 Arc User
    edited July 2014
    Bowser Games are played from your web browser: IE, Chrome or Firefox...

    STO is a client based game, there is a big difference. I wish STO was a bowser game that wasn't so resource thirsty. I shouldn't need a $3000 computer to play this game on max settings.
    i see the joke went so far over your head it left the orbit and went towards the delta quadrant at warp 9
    Now clowns, that's another story. They scare the cr​ap out of me.
    We fight them too. Entire armies spilling out of Volkswagens.
    We do our best to fight them off, but they keep sending them in.
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    champion1701champion1701 Member Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited July 2014
    arrmateys wrote: »
    i see the joke went so far over your head it left the orbit and went towards the delta quadrant at warp 9

    Don't quit your day job then...
    =/\= Commodore Champion1701 =/\=

    =/\=USS Lindsey Stirling =/\= NCC-116747 =/\=

    =/\= Liberty Task Force =/\= Diplomatic Advisor =/\=
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    thlaylierahthlaylierah Member Posts: 2,985 Arc User
    edited July 2014
    I was being facetious.

    STO development does appear to be heading in the direction of Browser games.

    I have to wait for them to finish things the next day as well.
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    snoggymack22snoggymack22 Member Posts: 7,084 Arc User
    edited July 2014
    I shouldn't need a $3000 computer to play this game on max settings.

    You don't need that to play this game on max settings.
    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
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    ralphgraphiteralphgraphite Member Posts: 628 Arc User
    edited July 2014
    So - honest question here. Was Gumarre not supposed to be exclusive to those who maxed out the old crafting system as a "reward"? I ask because I completed my second Request R&D Assistance DOFF assignment on a character and instead of getting purple materials or components, I got ANOTHER copy of this guy. Since he's bound (and the new copy is as well), kind of annoying.

    I'm guessing there's probably some RNG that determines what goes in those boxes - probably said to give me a Rare R&D doff, and he's the only one in existance.

    Just wondering if this is a known bug, or working as intended?
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    captaind3captaind3 Member Posts: 2,449 Arc User
    edited July 2014
    He is. The image and post you found were based on the initial version of him on Tribble. They also altered the flavor text to make it a little less ridiculous. You notice that the Holodeck version has him working on the Aegis Project, rather than with Professor Aegis? That is a good example of responding to Tribble feedback, unlike other elements of Season 9.5. Still, you've got to get to crafting level 15 before that doff actually matters, and you can't run more than one 20 hr Research project... but at least you won't accidentally toss him into a Fleet Holding.

    More responsiveness like Gumarre's improvements, please :D
    Excellent. Actually he's been my second research guy, since you can run more than one, just different schools.
    You aren't supposed to have to buy the C-Store pack. It's apparently a bug that both Borg and Voth Space Elites award Trellium-K and nothing awards Creylon. If I were more motivated I'd find the post... but I'm not :P

    Ahh, well in that case I await the fix.
    sirmayday wrote: »
    Time gating as a phenomenon in online gaming is more about habituating play time than anything else. Perfect World and Cryptic like it when players stay logged in (and active) for long periods of time, but they love it when players log in every day. It's the some principle that made Zynga millions (billions?) and made them an obnoxiously influential member of the video game development community, and could even likely be traced back to Pop Cap, if not further.

    They're making STO playing a daily habit to reinforce continued playing when a player might otherwise have played less, and as an element of the online gaming landscape, habituation's neither new nor going anywhere anytime soon.

    That seems similar to certain big companies nowadays believing that strong social media presence equates to people being willing to regularly spend money on your product.

    Though the fact that the 20 hour project is infinitely preferable to camping to set up new projects every hour. INFINITELY. Thank you devs.

    Still think those who were max level in the old system should get an experience boost though.
    tumblr_mr1jc2hq2T1rzu2xzo9_r1_400.gif
    "Rise like Lions after slumber, In unvanquishable number, Shake your chains to earth like dew, Which in sleep had fallen on you-Ye are many — they are few"
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    ravancheravanche Member Posts: 1 Arc User
    edited July 2014
    Still think those who were max level in the old system should get an experience boost though.

    Since IMO (as with all things) the new R&D system is an attempt to get Dil, and thus Zen purchases to get Dil, from players, it would serve no purpose financially to give anyone a boost. The quicker you max out a skill, the less time you'll be working on R&D, and thus less time potentially smacking the FINISH NOW button or buying catalysts.
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    sheldonlcoopersheldonlcooper Member Posts: 4,042 Arc User
    edited July 2014
    Thanks for the Craylon guys! I enjoy that Elachi mission also so it's very cool. I predict the price of craylon will go from 2 mil to <200k by the end of the weekend.
    Captain Jean-Luc Picard: "We think we've come so far. Torture of heretics, burning of witches, it's all ancient history. Then - before you can blink an eye - suddenly it threatens to start all over again."

    "With the first link, the chain is forged. The first speech censured, the first thought forbidden, the first freedom denied, chains us all irrevocably."

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    buccaneerdtbbuccaneerdtb Member Posts: 575 Arc User
    edited July 2014
    It plays almost just like slotting fleet projects. This 'crafting' is boring and not fulfilling. Where is the skill? Where is the actual collection of materials that affect the outcome? This is mindless collecting of random stuff with a random chance at quality outcomes.

    I am subscribing to Ryzom again for some real crafting and exploring.
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    sabijacsabijac Member Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited July 2014
    i have 2000$ pc and cant play this game on all max .. when in group pve fps going down to 20 .. even lower .. engine is pure **** ...
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    breadandcircusesbreadandcircuses Member Posts: 2,355 Arc User
    edited July 2014
    ravanche wrote: »
    Since IMO (as with all things) the new R&D system is an attempt to get Dil, and thus Zen purchases to get Dil, from players, it would serve no purpose financially to give anyone a boost. The quicker you max out a skill, the less time you'll be working on R&D, and thus less time potentially smacking the FINISH NOW button or buying catalysts.

    Aye... but if you aren't at least level 15 you probably aren't spending dilithium on making equipment either. The Finish Now button is a great way of getting folks antsy enough to click it but not antsy enough to just buy Fleet/Rep Gear... but it also means the folks that are patient won't spend dilithium on Crafting gear for several months, and folks impatient enough to buy Fleet/Rep gear won't spend dilithium on RNG items at all. And, of course, you don't really need Catalysts until you can craft items you actually want to use, right?

    [EDIT] Never mind. The Finish Now button is brilliant, it just got me to spend over 17K dilithium on a misclick. That's what I get for not storing all my dilithium on the Dilithium Exchange. Well played guys, well played.
    Ym9x9Ji.png
    meimeitoo wrote: »
    I do not like Geko ether.
    iconians wrote: »
    With each passing day I wonder if I stepped into an alternate reality. The Cubs win the world series. Donald Trump is President. Britain leaves the EU. STO gets a dedicated PvP season. Engineers are "out of control" in STO.​​
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