I don't understand the need to compare and rate alien fictional societies by the current morals and standards of our own species, especially when they still vary so much between Human societies on Earth.
cause its something to do when the login server is down LOL
Trophies for killing FEDS ahh those were the days.
Having a 'warrior mentality' doesn't mean you are constantly looking for a fight. To quote Mufasa of the Lion King: "Being brave, doesn't mean you go looking for trouble."
Point is that while Klingons do enjoy a good fight, it does not mean that they are purposefully seeking one out each day, every day. Sure the warriors of the Empire might want to, and we see what happens when Klingons tend to not have an enemy to face, they start to turn on each other more.
Also keep in mind, Qo'nos is NOT a nice place. It isn't some paradise. It's harsh and hard to live there. Praxis exploding in the 23rd century didn't help either. Point is that Klingons had to be strong to survive in such a manner. Even with 'modern' technology as it pertains to the game, it still isn't necessarily an easy place to live.
Besides, you can be a 'warrior' in your heart, and still live an honorable life as a Klingon. Even if you aren't out on the battle field, it doesn't mean you aren't fighting a war. But it doesn't mean the person next to you is your enemy or anything.
If two farmers, whose farms are next to each other plant crops, they are not enemies, instead their battle is the elements and seasons, while the two farmers would probably be allies, as they share a common foe. If they were willing to help each other against that enemy, then both would prosper in the end, winning that battle. And that would be a victory worth celebrating.
I remain empathetic to the concerns of my community, but do me a favor and lay off the god damn name calling and petty remarks. It will get you nowhere.
I must admit, respect points to Trendy for laying down the law like that.
If two farmers, whose farms are next to each other plant crops, they are not enemies, instead their battle is the elements and seasons, while the two farmers would probably be allies, as they share a common foe. If they were willing to help each other against that enemy, then both would prosper in the end, winning that battle. And that would be a victory worth celebrating.
Farmer A believes Farmer B has richer soil. Farmer B believes Farmer A has better water. Farmer A enjoys a good harvest while Farmer B did not...obviously Farmer A did something to Farmer B's farm. Farmer A and Farmer B are looking for a wife. Farmer A and Farmer B are bidding on some livestock.
Farmhand A's been with Farmer C longer than Farmhand B and makes more money. Farmhand B notices he does far more work than Farmhand A.
Farmer's Son F gets a pat on the back and a job well done. Farmer's Son E did most of the work.
Farmer A's Wife notices how much Farmer A's been looking at Farmer B's Wife...Farmer B's been too busy looking at Farmer A's Eldest Daughter to have noticed.
Hurg happened 1000 of years in the past history of the klingon race.
Thats akin to saying modern man stole his technology from the Sumerians, and nothing modern man has created is truelly his own ideas.
The Hurg gave a boost to technological development but the early Klingons still had to learn it and use it. The Kazon seem to not learn but only emulate.
True, I just didn't elaborate on how much of their tech is derived from it. Obviously Klingons have spent centuries tinkering with it, and improving it. this reminds me of how Klingon tech was more resistant to Breen energy disruptors than their allies's ships. that suggests that Klingon designs are fundamentally different.
It's canon that the Hur'q invasion happened. the biggest question is what the technological level of the Klingons was prior to it. There is a big hint as to their tech level, though it's not outright stated in canon. Namely that it happened shortly after Kahless earned his epithet of "the unforgettable" by defeating Molor.(or maybe 500 years later it's not clear)
Farmer A believes Farmer B has richer soil. Farmer B believes Farmer A has better water. Farmer A enjoys a good harvest while Farmer B did not...obviously Farmer A did something to Farmer B's farm. Farmer A and Farmer B are looking for a wife. Farmer A and Farmer B are bidding on some livestock.
Farmhand A's been with Farmer C longer than Farmhand B and makes more money. Farmhand B notices he does far more work than Farmhand A.
Farmer's Son F gets a pat on the back and a job well done. Farmer's Son E did most of the work.
Farmer A's Wife notices how much Farmer A's been looking at Farmer B's Wife...Farmer B's been too busy looking at Farmer A's Eldest Daughter to have noticed.
I understand what you are getting at with all of this, VD. I know that no way of thinking is perfect after all. As for your examples:
Farmer A and B, the choice is up to them as to what they will do. Will they work together, whether what they thought was true or not? If Farmer A did well, and B did not, sometimes it is not anyone's fault. There's a lot to it.
Did Farmer's Son F say anything about E? Because either way, E should know that honor demands that his own achievements be praised as he has done most of the work as well, and the farmer is at fault for ignoring his other son.
At that point, Farmer A and B are equally guilty IMO.
I do where you are going with it, it's just that as a people, the Klingons having a 'warrior mentality' is not necessarily a bad thing still.
I remain empathetic to the concerns of my community, but do me a favor and lay off the god damn name calling and petty remarks. It will get you nowhere.
I must admit, respect points to Trendy for laying down the law like that.
Having a 'warrior mentality' doesn't mean you are constantly looking for a fight. To quote Mufasa of the Lion King: "Being brave, doesn't mean you go looking for trouble."
Point is that while Klingons do enjoy a good fight, it does not mean that they are purposefully seeking one out each day, every day. Sure the warriors of the Empire might want to, and we see what happens when Klingons tend to not have an enemy to face, they start to turn on each other more.
Also keep in mind, Qo'nos is NOT a nice place. It isn't some paradise. It's harsh and hard to live there. Praxis exploding in the 23rd century didn't help either. Point is that Klingons had to be strong to survive in such a manner. Even with 'modern' technology as it pertains to the game, it still isn't necessarily an easy place to live.
Besides, you can be a 'warrior' in your heart, and still live an honorable life as a Klingon. Even if you aren't out on the battle field, it doesn't mean you aren't fighting a war. But it doesn't mean the person next to you is your enemy or anything.
If two farmers, whose farms are next to each other plant crops, they are not enemies, instead their battle is the elements and seasons, while the two farmers would probably be allies, as they share a common foe. If they were willing to help each other against that enemy, then both would prosper in the end, winning that battle. And that would be a victory worth celebrating.
The Klingon Art of War covers this, to seek adversity and challenge in all things of life.
I do where you are going with it, it's just that as a people, the Klingons having a 'warrior mentality' is not necessarily a bad thing still.
Wasn't trying to insinuate it was...was just pointing out that conflict isn't solely a KDF thing. It's not even a humanoid thing...animals do it. Plants do it. Conflict is the nature of life. As humans, we struggle for that first breath of air...
Just kind of got to thinking about this, and honestly...the whole mentality of the Klingon people of being 'warriors' is not a bad or 'barbarous' thing. Not at all.
As always, that's only a matter of perspective and by that i mean, it's usually the ones that have power and can force something upon others, who think being a warrior is a good thing.
Yes yes, in Star Trek we mostly get the actual 'warrior' part, but that isn't really the fault of the Klingons themselves, mostly a writing issue. Even so, Klingons are not 'barbarians', which is a decidedly Roman concept that we've kept to this modern age and still use.
Saying that it's a writing issue is like denying reality. What's been written is reality in that universe. Sadly you can speculate all you want, but it's just that, speculation and wishfull thinking. If everybody has a different definition of what is canon, then there is no baseline, so any discussion on the topic is quite moot.
That said, a barbarian is everybody who goes against social/moral values of the society you are living in. To the japanese people, western folks were barbarians, even tough from the western persective japan was, technologicly and culturaly speaking, decades behind them. So yes, for some other "civilizations" the klingon way of life might seems barbaric. On the other hand, not giving your opponent a worthy death in battle and instead capture him for interrogation might seem barbaric for the klingons (just fo an example).
Really, having a warrior mentality for your way of thought means you simply look at whatever your actual profession is, as a battle that you should try and win.
Not if death in battle is the prime goal of a whole society. I don't believe that any klingon really ponders the metaphorical aspect of civilian life and/or would be too content with not being an actual warrior.
A lawyer's battlefield is in the courtroom, with the lawyer being either on the defensive or offensive, and battling the other side to win a case. A farmer will fight the elements and seasons to make sure their crops can grow. Even a doctor can be a warrior so that he may fight to make sure his patient either lives on, or dies with honor (it's honestly Klingon stubbornness and pride that really prevents medical science from being more of a 'thing' for them).
Again, that might be enough for a single klingon to justify for himself not to pursue an actual porfession in the art of war, but giving the overall pressure society is putting on everybody to "die in battle or not have had a worthy life", this just seems a construct to soothe the individual klingons conscience.
To conclude: being a barbarian doesn't mean anything, being a warrior race has more far reaching consequences.
As always, that's only a matter of perspective and by that i mean, it's usually the ones that have power and can force something upon others, who think being a warrior is a good thing.
Most of what you said was just as much speculation as others here are doing and that's fine. even if I personally feel your wrong.
but the quote above i take issue with, some actually believe in a strong offense
while no solider actually wants war because its a terrible terrible thing to experience does not mean the enlisted solider does not see the need for it.
In the US. now we are a volunteer ARMY and it may be true that many join only for the opportunities it opens some of us actually feel a sense of duty to our country and helping protect our intrests.
it is said that those who stand for nothing will fall for anything.
i prefer to stand for what i feel is the best thing to do and to hell with others even if i am wrong. i would rather 1,000,000 of any other nations people die than 1 American. and if other nations feel that way about Americans im ok with that. if they don't im ok with that too.
over the years though i have noticed that the people who feel that only the so called people in control are pro-war are 1 of two things. completely uneducated or entirely OVER EDUCATED and dreaming of this utopia that is not going happen any time soon.. meaning these die hard feddy bears.
Trophies for killing FEDS ahh those were the days.
i prefer to stand for what i feel is the best thing to do and to hell with others even if i am wrong. i would rather 1,000,000 of any other nations people die than 1 American. and if other nations feel that way about Americans im ok with that. if they don't im ok with that too.
After reconsidering, i redacted my statement. This comment really just needs to stand for itself.
Klingon warrior mentality basically is a way they used a race used once in awhile but never a main focal point of the federation. The main purpose of it was to relay a fictional futuristic universe but address problems in current events on how given characters would respond in a more enlightened fashion than people of our given eras would do so.
I wouldn't blame it on bad writing its just like you can't blame the visual FX people of the 60's for how it looks vs how TNG, DS9, Voyager, and the JJ ones the technology just was not around to be able to compare it lol. They all just took what they had and developed something that would inspire people for decades to come even though some looked on it as a failure since it had such a short running but had numerous years in the movies as well. Is one reason I think a lot of people have quit this game or just not bothered with it even though they are fans of the franchise is because the story telling and content is a bit whack. They need to get out of the lord of the rings cookie cutter. Feds put on a ring and grind for 6 months, fed takes a couple steps and grind 6 more months, enter a dyson sphere grind for a year, and it keeps going and going but nothing really is happening story wise maybe Captain Frodo will drop the tricorder ring into the middle of the dyson sphere and it will be destroyed so it can move onto some more story lol
Last thing though but based on the last series we had of enterprised where they showed glimpses for a future past the DS9/Voyager era ending. Pretty much you can suspect that eventually the alpha quadrant attracted so many badies that pretty much the alpha quadrant is the federation even though the races maintained oversight on their races vessels they pretty much were all federation in that sphere builders battle its basically that the Federation consisted on resources donaters and other Empires allied with them under the banner of the federation. In all things though the orion, nausicaan, gorn connection though their way of doing things like piracy wouldn't be a completely bad thing for the federation to be associated with as long as there are always a bad guy to save the federation from they won't care as long as its protecting their citizens from harm by stopping their enemies
Despite the Klingon reputation for fatalism, the KDF side seems far more up-beat in this game... and, indeed, in much of the fictional Star Trek universe.
Despite the Klingon reputation for fatalism, the KDF side seems far more up-beat in this game... and, indeed, in much of the fictional Star Trek universe.
they are often drinking... and for some reason are happy drunks.
if I stop posting it doesn't make you right it. just means I don't have enough rum to continue interacting with you.
NO! Because is a day to CELEBRATE!!! FOR TOMORROW WE ALL MAY DIE! So eat drink and be merry!
Star Trek Battles member. Want to roll with a good group of people regardless of fleets and not have to worry about DPS while doing STFs? Come join the channel and join in the fun!
I never did like how the Kingons were portrayed in Star Trek. To me they were portrayed as mindless oafs that could easily be persuaded by anyones interpretation of Honor
For example, if a High ranking Klingon would say, I would be a great honor for the Empire if you would cut off your useless left hand. And the Klingon would actually do it just because that Klingon used the word Honor in his statement.
If you really pay attention to the show you will notice that they did some crazy things in the name of Honor things that have nothing to do with honor.
Hell, their whole empire is based on who can manipulate the word Honor the best.
I find it beyond ignorant to assign different value to a life depending on what side of an imaginary line they were born on.
when we have this utopia that so many here want it would be stupid to say what I said. but fact is we don't live in that world. lines are drawn every day by countries, religions, races and others. and people are killing because of the differences on the other side of these imaginary lines.
I did not say to go out of our way or that I would provoke the deaths of 1 million others. just that I would rather protect what is common to myself rather than some distant peoples ideas or beliefs or what ever. Maybe its the leave no man behind mentality but loyalty counts for something in this world and those that can not see that are to me ignorant, uncaring people.
It is really not that different from what the peacniks say just the idea is coming from a different direction. during recent wars. they people were yelling bring the troops home so they stop dyeing in a senseless war. and I bet you people are ok with that.
myself I do not believe the recent wars were senseless sept 11 we were attacked not by a nation but a belief. so our enemy was not a nation or a religion but the beliefs that some factions within those afore mentioned bodies had.
to get to the offenders and promoters of those beliefs im sure people died and I do not care. we have not been attacked again on the sept 11th scale here at home since we took the war to them. so its saving lives. what bad is how many have been lost fighting for safety of others. and should not happen I don't want our troops there either. no reason for them to die. when we can bomb the offenders into the stone age with little loss of American or allied life.
So what one named person is not confirmed killed we have satellites if we see a rock move launch air strike. if a cloud passes overhead obscuring the view carpet bomb its path just for good measure. find an under ground bunker system or factory low yield tactical nuclear strike and turn that part of the desert into a glass bowl.
Edit: I was brought up with this. Never ever start a fight, but always finish one.
Trophies for killing FEDS ahh those were the days.
Understated, heh. This borders on utter contempt for non-American human life.
no I do not have contempt for any others at all but I do place I higher value on people places and things that concern me. and I bet you do as well but are too politically correct to admit it.
family > anybody
friends > town
town > state
state > nation
Nation > rest of the world
and so on.
Trophies for killing FEDS ahh those were the days.
Dude, just stop. Everyone has their rights to their own convictions, but I'm sure you'll well aware of the general level of acceptance a Star Trek community would have for such claims.
Note that I'm not trying to be arrogant, nor judging you for your convictions - I'd just prefer if we can keep this about Klingons and Star Trek rather than have it turned into a heated debate about contemporary politics, ethics, beliefs etc. and get the thread closed.
I'm sure you and everyone else here understand what I mean.
Comments
cause its something to do when the login server is down LOL
Point is that while Klingons do enjoy a good fight, it does not mean that they are purposefully seeking one out each day, every day. Sure the warriors of the Empire might want to, and we see what happens when Klingons tend to not have an enemy to face, they start to turn on each other more.
Also keep in mind, Qo'nos is NOT a nice place. It isn't some paradise. It's harsh and hard to live there. Praxis exploding in the 23rd century didn't help either. Point is that Klingons had to be strong to survive in such a manner. Even with 'modern' technology as it pertains to the game, it still isn't necessarily an easy place to live.
Besides, you can be a 'warrior' in your heart, and still live an honorable life as a Klingon. Even if you aren't out on the battle field, it doesn't mean you aren't fighting a war. But it doesn't mean the person next to you is your enemy or anything.
If two farmers, whose farms are next to each other plant crops, they are not enemies, instead their battle is the elements and seasons, while the two farmers would probably be allies, as they share a common foe. If they were willing to help each other against that enemy, then both would prosper in the end, winning that battle. And that would be a victory worth celebrating.
Farmer A believes Farmer B has richer soil. Farmer B believes Farmer A has better water. Farmer A enjoys a good harvest while Farmer B did not...obviously Farmer A did something to Farmer B's farm. Farmer A and Farmer B are looking for a wife. Farmer A and Farmer B are bidding on some livestock.
Farmhand A's been with Farmer C longer than Farmhand B and makes more money. Farmhand B notices he does far more work than Farmhand A.
Farmer's Son F gets a pat on the back and a job well done. Farmer's Son E did most of the work.
Farmer A's Wife notices how much Farmer A's been looking at Farmer B's Wife...Farmer B's been too busy looking at Farmer A's Eldest Daughter to have noticed.
It's canon that the Hur'q invasion happened. the biggest question is what the technological level of the Klingons was prior to it. There is a big hint as to their tech level, though it's not outright stated in canon. Namely that it happened shortly after Kahless earned his epithet of "the unforgettable" by defeating Molor.(or maybe 500 years later it's not clear)
But.... Dating Molor's death is problematic, Klingon history is rather inconsistent.
My character Tsin'xing
The main issue is that , as you said, the history is spotty.
R.I.P
I understand what you are getting at with all of this, VD. I know that no way of thinking is perfect after all. As for your examples:
Farmer A and B, the choice is up to them as to what they will do. Will they work together, whether what they thought was true or not? If Farmer A did well, and B did not, sometimes it is not anyone's fault. There's a lot to it.
Did Farmer's Son F say anything about E? Because either way, E should know that honor demands that his own achievements be praised as he has done most of the work as well, and the farmer is at fault for ignoring his other son.
At that point, Farmer A and B are equally guilty IMO.
I do where you are going with it, it's just that as a people, the Klingons having a 'warrior mentality' is not necessarily a bad thing still.
The Klingon Art of War covers this, to seek adversity and challenge in all things of life.
R.I.P
Wasn't trying to insinuate it was...was just pointing out that conflict isn't solely a KDF thing. It's not even a humanoid thing...animals do it. Plants do it. Conflict is the nature of life. As humans, we struggle for that first breath of air...
As always, that's only a matter of perspective and by that i mean, it's usually the ones that have power and can force something upon others, who think being a warrior is a good thing.
Saying that it's a writing issue is like denying reality. What's been written is reality in that universe. Sadly you can speculate all you want, but it's just that, speculation and wishfull thinking. If everybody has a different definition of what is canon, then there is no baseline, so any discussion on the topic is quite moot.
That said, a barbarian is everybody who goes against social/moral values of the society you are living in. To the japanese people, western folks were barbarians, even tough from the western persective japan was, technologicly and culturaly speaking, decades behind them. So yes, for some other "civilizations" the klingon way of life might seems barbaric. On the other hand, not giving your opponent a worthy death in battle and instead capture him for interrogation might seem barbaric for the klingons (just fo an example).
Not if death in battle is the prime goal of a whole society. I don't believe that any klingon really ponders the metaphorical aspect of civilian life and/or would be too content with not being an actual warrior.
Again, that might be enough for a single klingon to justify for himself not to pursue an actual porfession in the art of war, but giving the overall pressure society is putting on everybody to "die in battle or not have had a worthy life", this just seems a construct to soothe the individual klingons conscience.
To conclude: being a barbarian doesn't mean anything, being a warrior race has more far reaching consequences.
Most of what you said was just as much speculation as others here are doing and that's fine. even if I personally feel your wrong.
but the quote above i take issue with, some actually believe in a strong offense
while no solider actually wants war because its a terrible terrible thing to experience does not mean the enlisted solider does not see the need for it.
In the US. now we are a volunteer ARMY and it may be true that many join only for the opportunities it opens some of us actually feel a sense of duty to our country and helping protect our intrests.
it is said that those who stand for nothing will fall for anything.
i prefer to stand for what i feel is the best thing to do and to hell with others even if i am wrong. i would rather 1,000,000 of any other nations people die than 1 American. and if other nations feel that way about Americans im ok with that. if they don't im ok with that too.
over the years though i have noticed that the people who feel that only the so called people in control are pro-war are 1 of two things. completely uneducated or entirely OVER EDUCATED and dreaming of this utopia that is not going happen any time soon.. meaning these die hard feddy bears.
After reconsidering, i redacted my statement. This comment really just needs to stand for itself.
R.I.P
I wouldn't blame it on bad writing its just like you can't blame the visual FX people of the 60's for how it looks vs how TNG, DS9, Voyager, and the JJ ones the technology just was not around to be able to compare it lol. They all just took what they had and developed something that would inspire people for decades to come even though some looked on it as a failure since it had such a short running but had numerous years in the movies as well. Is one reason I think a lot of people have quit this game or just not bothered with it even though they are fans of the franchise is because the story telling and content is a bit whack. They need to get out of the lord of the rings cookie cutter. Feds put on a ring and grind for 6 months, fed takes a couple steps and grind 6 more months, enter a dyson sphere grind for a year, and it keeps going and going but nothing really is happening story wise maybe Captain Frodo will drop the tricorder ring into the middle of the dyson sphere and it will be destroyed so it can move onto some more story lol
Last thing though but based on the last series we had of enterprised where they showed glimpses for a future past the DS9/Voyager era ending. Pretty much you can suspect that eventually the alpha quadrant attracted so many badies that pretty much the alpha quadrant is the federation even though the races maintained oversight on their races vessels they pretty much were all federation in that sphere builders battle its basically that the Federation consisted on resources donaters and other Empires allied with them under the banner of the federation. In all things though the orion, nausicaan, gorn connection though their way of doing things like piracy wouldn't be a completely bad thing for the federation to be associated with as long as there are always a bad guy to save the federation from they won't care as long as its protecting their citizens from harm by stopping their enemies
IKS Korrasami (Fleet B'rel Bird of Prey Retrofit T5-U)
they are often drinking... and for some reason are happy drunks.
if I stop posting it doesn't make you right it. just means I don't have enough rum to continue interacting with you.
Because.....bloodwine makes Qo'noS go round?
NO! Because is a day to CELEBRATE!!! FOR TOMORROW WE ALL MAY DIE! So eat drink and be merry!
Star Trek Battles member. Want to roll with a good group of people regardless of fleets and not have to worry about DPS while doing STFs? Come join the channel and join in the fun!
http://forum.arcgames.com/startrekonline/discussion/1145998/star-trek-battles-channel-got-canon/p1
More bloodwine!
Fleet Admiral Space Orphidian Possiblities Wizard
Oh Lord, in what category to we fit this special kind of stupid?
Fleet Admiral Space Orphidian Possiblities Wizard
Understated, heh. This borders on utter contempt for non-American human life.
That would be Kolos portrayed by the ever awesome J.G. Hertzler or Martok as we know him.
Probably under "the standard state of mind for most of human history"?
For example, if a High ranking Klingon would say, I would be a great honor for the Empire if you would cut off your useless left hand. And the Klingon would actually do it just because that Klingon used the word Honor in his statement.
If you really pay attention to the show you will notice that they did some crazy things in the name of Honor things that have nothing to do with honor.
Hell, their whole empire is based on who can manipulate the word Honor the best.
when we have this utopia that so many here want it would be stupid to say what I said. but fact is we don't live in that world. lines are drawn every day by countries, religions, races and others. and people are killing because of the differences on the other side of these imaginary lines.
I did not say to go out of our way or that I would provoke the deaths of 1 million others. just that I would rather protect what is common to myself rather than some distant peoples ideas or beliefs or what ever. Maybe its the leave no man behind mentality but loyalty counts for something in this world and those that can not see that are to me ignorant, uncaring people.
It is really not that different from what the peacniks say just the idea is coming from a different direction. during recent wars. they people were yelling bring the troops home so they stop dyeing in a senseless war. and I bet you people are ok with that.
myself I do not believe the recent wars were senseless sept 11 we were attacked not by a nation but a belief. so our enemy was not a nation or a religion but the beliefs that some factions within those afore mentioned bodies had.
to get to the offenders and promoters of those beliefs im sure people died and I do not care. we have not been attacked again on the sept 11th scale here at home since we took the war to them. so its saving lives. what bad is how many have been lost fighting for safety of others. and should not happen I don't want our troops there either. no reason for them to die. when we can bomb the offenders into the stone age with little loss of American or allied life.
So what one named person is not confirmed killed we have satellites if we see a rock move launch air strike. if a cloud passes overhead obscuring the view carpet bomb its path just for good measure. find an under ground bunker system or factory low yield tactical nuclear strike and turn that part of the desert into a glass bowl.
Edit: I was brought up with this. Never ever start a fight, but always finish one.
no I do not have contempt for any others at all but I do place I higher value on people places and things that concern me. and I bet you do as well but are too politically correct to admit it.
family > anybody
friends > town
town > state
state > nation
Nation > rest of the world
and so on.
More Blood Wine!!
R.I.P
Dude, just stop. Everyone has their rights to their own convictions, but I'm sure you'll well aware of the general level of acceptance a Star Trek community would have for such claims.
Note that I'm not trying to be arrogant, nor judging you for your convictions - I'd just prefer if we can keep this about Klingons and Star Trek rather than have it turned into a heated debate about contemporary politics, ethics, beliefs etc. and get the thread closed.
I'm sure you and everyone else here understand what I mean.