Oh Lord, in what category to we fit this special kind of stupid?
As someone who is currently ashamed to be associated by nationality with that lunatic, I vote "useless jingoistic nutjob".
"Great War! / And I cannot take more! / Great tour! / I keep on marching on / I play the great score / There will be no encore / Great War! / The War to End All Wars"
— Sabaton, "Great War"
Dude, just stop. Everyone has their rights to their own convictions, but I'm sure you'll well aware of the general level of acceptance a Star Trek community would have for such claims.
Note that I'm not trying to be arrogant, nor judging you for your convictions - I'd just prefer if we can keep this about Klingons and Star Trek rather than have it turned into a heated debate about contemporary politics, ethics, beliefs etc. and get the thread closed.
I'm sure you and everyone else here understand what I mean.
I have and will, also not even sure how it got started.
Trophies for killing FEDS ahh those were the days.
I have and will, also not even sure how it got started.
I'm pretty sure you disagreed with one of my statements, specifically about people in power being in favor of a warrior society, or something like that. After that everything is kinda blurry.
My theory is that, as a federation spy, my master manipulator skills forced you to sow discontent in the klingons ranks, only foiled by my textbook-villian need to explain my master plan.
Curse you story tropes!
That would be Kolos portrayed by the ever awesome J.G. Hertzler or Martok as we know him.
But it was also not something that entirely overtook Klingon Society, at least until DS9 showed up. Just look at Chang in ST6. There's a warrior but one of the fiendishly clever variety rather than the "just hit it with a bigger stick!" sort that we were treated to in the post-TNG visits to the empire.
The shows, IMO, just fell into a bad habit (among many) of simply having a bit too much "fun" with Klingons in the sense of "oh to hell with it let's just kill something!" It's was a release from the otherwise constrained tone but it's certainly not something that Cryptic should maintain (because "to hell with it let's just kill something" is our standard mode of operation. Let's get back to at least the professional warrior, not the 3am boozer with a sharpened bumper variety.)
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But it was also not something that entirely overtook Klingon Society, at least until DS9 showed up. Just look at Chang in ST6. There's a warrior but one of the fiendishly clever variety rather than the "just hit it with a bigger stick!" sort that we were treated to in the post-TNG visits to the empire.
The shows, IMO, just fell into a bad habit (among many) of simply having a bit too much "fun" with Klingons in the sense of "oh to hell with it let's just kill something!" It's was a release from the otherwise constrained tone but it's certainly not something that Cryptic should maintain (because "to hell with it let's just kill something" is our standard mode of operation. Let's get back to at least the professional warrior, not the 3am boozer with a sharpened bumper variety.)
I think the problem was over-emphasizing their differences from the Federation. It got to the point where you would wonder how they had warp travel... Yes they're portrayed as being approximately equal in intellect to humans, but.... less interested in scholarly pursuits. Advanced tech needs a LOT of those... which in some episodes it seems like the KDF lacks entirely.
i like to compare Klingons to Samurais. they are both warriors by heart, and have a strict sense of honor
There was a Star Trek: Phase 2 episode written before that series failed to pan out that explored a very different idea of the Klingon Empire. In this version, the word "Klingon" would have been revealed to actually mean a class of elite and cultured warriors (like the Samurai), rather than the entire race, which had many different names and many different castes.
I've blabbered on too much about could-have-beens in the Romulan forum, though. Suffice it to say, I think the problem with Klingons is not their warrior mentality. There are intelligent and erudite and sophisticated Klingons, and that they can come to so deeply respect someone like Picard is proof that there's more to them than people give them credit for.
I think the problem with Klingons is the Empire. Problems in the Empire seem to come from the top down, and not from any sort of cultural issue. On Q'rono'S, corruption and brutality are the norm, and the rest of society reflects that.
As far as we know, there's been precisely one Klingon on the High Council for whom "honor" is not just a word, and he's dead. Now, they're rolling out the welcoming mat for Nausticaan and Orion pirates, and any player can sell captured civilians into slavery or test biological weapons . . . you do not see that sort of thing in the TNG-era. If you had, you would have seen Worf slicing them in half with a bat'leth.
It's a sign of the seemingly perpetual decay that they seem to always be staving off through bravery and aggression and wits alone.
But it was also not something that entirely overtook Klingon Society, at least until DS9 showed up. Just look at Chang in ST6. There's a warrior but one of the fiendishly clever variety rather than the "just hit it with a bigger stick!" sort that we were treated to in the post-TNG visits to the empire.
The shows, IMO, just fell into a bad habit (among many) of simply having a bit too much "fun" with Klingons in the sense of "oh to hell with it let's just kill something!" It's was a release from the otherwise constrained tone but it's certainly not something that Cryptic should maintain (because "to hell with it let's just kill something" is our standard mode of operation. Let's get back to at least the professional warrior, not the 3am boozer with a sharpened bumper variety.)
Klinks can also live what? 200 years? So Chang could be a product of that more antiquated Klingon culture that has since died out. The same could be said for Gorkon in the same film. Klingons in their winter years, harkening back in different ways to when the Klingon Empire had a fuller, richer and more varied culture.
There was a Star Trek: Phase 2 episode written before that series failed to pan out that explored a very different idea of the Klingon Empire. In this version, the word "Klingon" would have been revealed to actually mean a class of elite and cultured warriors (like the Samurai), rather than the entire race, which had many different names and many different castes.
Monocultural aliens are a Star Trek theme, or something.
Klinks can also live what? 200 years? So Chang could be a product of that more antiquated Klingon culture that has since died out. The same could be said for Gorkon in the same film. Klingons in their winter years, harkening back in different ways to when the Klingon Empire had a fuller, richer and more varied culture.
That still doesn't justify the transition from sensible culture to cartoonish barbarians. You might be able to explain it but the oversimplification does none-the-less cause problems particularly when you want to have the KDF support a full faction in an MMO.
And even still, if you want it to be a real part of Klingon society that they've more or less abandoned everything apart from battle and conquest (ie. they've pulled a Hirogen) then you need to have other things happening to the society to make it authentic. The KDF is still developing ships, still surviving as a civilization (they're even able to successfully fight the larger, more advanced, more balanced federation), even with endless warfare being held as the ideal. If we're going to move in that direction then develop the KDF (for STO) along the lines of the Empire of Warhammer 40k. Don't just make the space Vikings with an inexplicable ability to maintain themselves. That's simply not interesting.
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All one has to do is read the books to see that the Empire is much more than just a warrior society.
If we are to only make judgement based on TV and movies then no faction in the IP is well portrayed.
The Feds would be full of inept command personal and near powerless politicians, since we rarely if at all see any SF captain perform with success that does not have the name Kirk, Sisko, Archer, or Janeway.
Every other race comes up even worse.
All one has to do is read the books to see that the Empire is much more than just a warrior society.
If we are to only make judgement based on TV and movies then no faction in the IP is well portrayed.
The Feds would be full of inept command personal and near powerless politicians, since we rarely if at all see any SF captain perform with success that does not have the name Kirk, Sisko, Archer, or Janeway.
Every other race comes up even worse.
Every ship in Starfleet without the name Enterprise, Defiant or Voyager seems to be filled with inept crews and corrupt admiralty if we base it only off the TV shows.
I haven't read the previous pages yet, so please apologize if i go off topic.
Not long ago i have watched ENT, Episode 2x19 "Judgement" and it made me think.
Especially a scene where Kolos and Archer talk about Klingon culture.
Let me quote it here:
Kolos: "You didn't believe all Klingons were soldiers?" Archer: "I guess I did." Kolos: "My father was a teacher. My mother, a biologist at the university. They encouraged me to take up the law. Now, all young people want to do is to take up weapons as soon as they can hold them. They're told there is honor in victory any victory. What honor is there in a victory over a weaker opponent? Had Duras destroyed that ship, he would have been lauded as a hero of the Empire for murdering helpless refugees. We were a great society, not so long ago. When honor was earned through integrity and acts of true courage, not senseless bloodshed."
Could it be that somewhen in the past (before that episode) Klingon society was overthrown by a much more militaristic party of klingons?
Maybe before, Klingon culture was merely inspired by their warrior myths but after that overthrow (not neccessarily a forceful one) everyone became hooked by war and killing.
What was simply a allegory has been taken literal and all other aspects of klingon society have become somewhat second rated from then on.
I think if Klingon culture was more portrayed like Kolos was describing it (how it was in his past) i think it would be much more appealing IMO.
But as i see it Klingon characters are too often portrayed as stupid fascistic idiots, who bend their own concept of "honor" to justify almost anything.
...
As far as we know, there's been precisely one Klingon on the High Council for whom "honor" is not just a word, and he's dead. Now, they're rolling out the welcoming mat for Nausticaan and Orion pirates, and any player can sell captured civilians into slavery or test biological weapons . . . you do not see that sort of thing in the TNG-era. If you had, you would have seen Worf slicing them in half with a bat'leth.
It's a sign of the seemingly perpetual decay that they seem to always be staving off through bravery and aggression and wits alone.
That's exactly why i am so reluctant to seriously play a KDF character.
Which is a terrible shame, Klingon culture could be seriously awesome, but it's just distasteful.
"...'With the first link, the chain is forged. The first speech censured...the first thought forbidden...the first freedom denied--chains us all irrevocably.' ... The first time any man's freedom is trodden on, we're all damaged. I fear that today--"
- (TNG) Picard, quoting Judge Aaron Satie
Just kind of got to thinking about this, and honestly...the whole mentality of the Klingon people of being 'warriors' is not a bad or 'barbarous' thing. Not at all.
Yes yes, in Star Trek we mostly get the actual 'warrior' part, but that isn't really the fault of the Klingons themselves, mostly a writing issue. Even so, Klingons are not 'barbarians', which is a decidedly Roman concept that we've kept to this modern age and still use.
The term Barbarian is Greek, it means someone who is a different culture , the first person to use the term was the historian Herodotus in his classic the Persian wars
"The meaning of victory is not to merely defeat your enemy but to destroy him, to completely eradicate him from living memory, to leave no remnant of his endeavours, to crush utterly his achievement and remove from all record his every trace of existence. From that defeat no enemy can ever recover. That is the meaning of victory."
-Lord Commander Solar Macharius
Comments
As someone who is currently ashamed to be associated by nationality with that lunatic, I vote "useless jingoistic nutjob".
— Sabaton, "Great War"
Check out https://unitedfederationofpla.net/s/
I have and will, also not even sure how it got started.
Onward!
I'm pretty sure you disagreed with one of my statements, specifically about people in power being in favor of a warrior society, or something like that. After that everything is kinda blurry.
My theory is that, as a federation spy, my master manipulator skills forced you to sow discontent in the klingons ranks, only foiled by my textbook-villian need to explain my master plan.
Curse you story tropes!
But it was also not something that entirely overtook Klingon Society, at least until DS9 showed up. Just look at Chang in ST6. There's a warrior but one of the fiendishly clever variety rather than the "just hit it with a bigger stick!" sort that we were treated to in the post-TNG visits to the empire.
The shows, IMO, just fell into a bad habit (among many) of simply having a bit too much "fun" with Klingons in the sense of "oh to hell with it let's just kill something!" It's was a release from the otherwise constrained tone but it's certainly not something that Cryptic should maintain (because "to hell with it let's just kill something" is our standard mode of operation. Let's get back to at least the professional warrior, not the 3am boozer with a sharpened bumper variety.)
Notable missions: Apex [AEI], Gemini [SSF], Trident [AEI], Evolution's Smile [SSF], Transcendence
Looking for something new to play? I've started building Foundry missions again in visual novel form!
My character Tsin'xing
There was a Star Trek: Phase 2 episode written before that series failed to pan out that explored a very different idea of the Klingon Empire. In this version, the word "Klingon" would have been revealed to actually mean a class of elite and cultured warriors (like the Samurai), rather than the entire race, which had many different names and many different castes.
I've blabbered on too much about could-have-beens in the Romulan forum, though. Suffice it to say, I think the problem with Klingons is not their warrior mentality. There are intelligent and erudite and sophisticated Klingons, and that they can come to so deeply respect someone like Picard is proof that there's more to them than people give them credit for.
I think the problem with Klingons is the Empire. Problems in the Empire seem to come from the top down, and not from any sort of cultural issue. On Q'rono'S, corruption and brutality are the norm, and the rest of society reflects that.
As far as we know, there's been precisely one Klingon on the High Council for whom "honor" is not just a word, and he's dead. Now, they're rolling out the welcoming mat for Nausticaan and Orion pirates, and any player can sell captured civilians into slavery or test biological weapons . . . you do not see that sort of thing in the TNG-era. If you had, you would have seen Worf slicing them in half with a bat'leth.
It's a sign of the seemingly perpetual decay that they seem to always be staving off through bravery and aggression and wits alone.
Klinks can also live what? 200 years? So Chang could be a product of that more antiquated Klingon culture that has since died out. The same could be said for Gorkon in the same film. Klingons in their winter years, harkening back in different ways to when the Klingon Empire had a fuller, richer and more varied culture.
Monocultural aliens are a Star Trek theme, or something.
Star Trek is all about Humans, after all.
IKS Korrasami (Fleet B'rel Bird of Prey Retrofit T5-U)
That still doesn't justify the transition from sensible culture to cartoonish barbarians. You might be able to explain it but the oversimplification does none-the-less cause problems particularly when you want to have the KDF support a full faction in an MMO.
And even still, if you want it to be a real part of Klingon society that they've more or less abandoned everything apart from battle and conquest (ie. they've pulled a Hirogen) then you need to have other things happening to the society to make it authentic. The KDF is still developing ships, still surviving as a civilization (they're even able to successfully fight the larger, more advanced, more balanced federation), even with endless warfare being held as the ideal. If we're going to move in that direction then develop the KDF (for STO) along the lines of the Empire of Warhammer 40k. Don't just make the space Vikings with an inexplicable ability to maintain themselves. That's simply not interesting.
Notable missions: Apex [AEI], Gemini [SSF], Trident [AEI], Evolution's Smile [SSF], Transcendence
Looking for something new to play? I've started building Foundry missions again in visual novel form!
If we are to only make judgement based on TV and movies then no faction in the IP is well portrayed.
The Feds would be full of inept command personal and near powerless politicians, since we rarely if at all see any SF captain perform with success that does not have the name Kirk, Sisko, Archer, or Janeway.
Every other race comes up even worse.
R.I.P
Every ship in Starfleet without the name Enterprise, Defiant or Voyager seems to be filled with inept crews and corrupt admiralty if we base it only off the TV shows.
Not long ago i have watched ENT, Episode 2x19 "Judgement" and it made me think.
Especially a scene where Kolos and Archer talk about Klingon culture.
Let me quote it here:
Could it be that somewhen in the past (before that episode) Klingon society was overthrown by a much more militaristic party of klingons?
Maybe before, Klingon culture was merely inspired by their warrior myths but after that overthrow (not neccessarily a forceful one) everyone became hooked by war and killing.
What was simply a allegory has been taken literal and all other aspects of klingon society have become somewhat second rated from then on.
I think if Klingon culture was more portrayed like Kolos was describing it (how it was in his past) i think it would be much more appealing IMO.
But as i see it Klingon characters are too often portrayed as stupid fascistic idiots, who bend their own concept of "honor" to justify almost anything.
That's exactly why i am so reluctant to seriously play a KDF character.
Which is a terrible shame, Klingon culture could be seriously awesome, but it's just distasteful.
The term Barbarian is Greek, it means someone who is a different culture , the first person to use the term was the historian Herodotus in his classic the Persian wars
-Lord Commander Solar Macharius
Heh.