why replace the leader, when you replace those who give the leader infomation and get similar results?
Your advise to put oribital defense around a planet with barely 10K colonists, instead of beefing up our fleet and taking the fight to the enemy seems suspect.
Ancient Griffon insult
That one is so stupid, he lost a Rock/Paper/Scissors game to a Pony.
I think it's pretty obvious to most that the Romulans (and Klingons) were basically reinvented for TNG-era, ENT's clumsy attempt to reconcile the TNG and TOS Klingons being the only real attempt to fit them together.
TNG Romulans suck and were boring and one dimensional in almost all their appearances.
There, I said it. They have a cool ship design aesthetic, I will give them that, but not much more. They lacked the flair of the old TOS Klingons and Romulans, and never got the development of the Cardassians. The entire warrior-culture ethos that should have been theirs was given to the Klingons during the production of Star Trek 3, leaving them with nothing of their own to work from.
They were the show's genetic bad guys. Most of the time, the writers only trotted them out whenever they didn't feel like inventing a new alien-of-the-week. They were not the first choice for this position. The only reason they came back at all is because the Ferengi didn't work as a recurring adversary, and the writing staff desperately reached back to TOS to find something that could serve in that role. They premiered in an awful episode where a group of random people are treated like Hitler by Picard because they happen to be 20th century capitalists, and if the D'Deridex hadn't had left such an impression, they would have likely been forgotten.
Eventually, we got The Defector and Reunification, which inspired much of the Romulan Republic stuff in STO, but the big complaint when LoR hit was that you couldn't play a "real" Romulan, which if you'd go back and watch the original episodes, means a 2-dimensional idiot villain who smirks ineffectually on the Enterprise's viewscreen for half an hour.
In that sense, the STO Tal Shiar are pretty solid representations of them. We do need to see D'Tan's assertiveness more, but if the Tal Shiar are two-dimensional villains, then that's the writers representing the show.
why replace the leader, when you replace those who give the leader infomation and get similar results?
Your advise to put oribital defense around a planet with barely 10K colonists, instead of beefing up our fleet and taking the fight to the enemy seems suspect.
((We don't know how many people live on ch'Mol'Rihan, but I would be very surprised if the total population is as low as you have estimated.))
The planet needs to be defended. It being undefended is foolish. Such a state only invites aggressors.
Notice I never said anything about not beefing up the fleet. Beefing up the fleet is an ongoing project, and in fact, I did state rather obviously:
"Additional and upgraded weapons must be authorized for all personnel."
And that, of course, refers to biomolecular weapons, authorized for all personnel (not only those involved in Homeworld Defense).
TNG Romulans suck and were boring and one dimensional in almost all their appearances.
There, I said it. They have a cool ship design aesthetic, I will give them that, but not much more. They lacked the flair of the old TOS Klingons and Romulans, and never got the development of the Cardassians. The entire warrior-culture ethos that should have been theirs was given to the Klingons during the production of Star Trek 3, leaving them with nothing of their own to work from.
They were the show's genetic bad guys. Most of the time, the writers only trotted them out whenever they didn't feel like inventing a new alien-of-the-week. They were not the first choice for this position. The only reason they came back at all is because the Ferengi didn't work as a recurring adversary, and the writing staff desperately reached back to TOS to find something that could serve in that role. They premiered in an awful episode where a group of random people are treated like Hitler by Picard because they happen to be 20th century capitalists, and if the D'Deridex hadn't had left such an impression, they would have likely been forgotten.
Eventually, we got The Defector and Reunification, which inspired much of the Romulan Republic stuff in STO, but the big complaint when LoR hit was that you couldn't play a "real" Romulan, which if you'd go back and watch the original episodes, means a 2-dimensional idiot villain who smirks ineffectually on the Enterprise's viewscreen for half an hour.
In that sense, the STO Tal Shiar are pretty solid representations of them. We do need to see D'Tan's assertiveness more, but if the Tal Shiar are two-dimensional villains, then that's the writers representing the show.
You said it. Doesn't make it remotely true though
Interesting that the TOS cheesy faux Romans with their pinks scarves and culottes with their two appearances have 'flair' but you can't seem to find anything unique about the TNG-era Romulans.
Romulans have consistently been antagonistic to the Federation. If that qualifies as '2-dimensional villain' to you, then perhaps Star Trek is not for you, Because they certainly aren't more 2-dimensional than the Cardies, Dominion, or Klingons. Which, between them-accounts for most of the big antagonists of the setting.
If you want to play the federation, then you can play the federation. Romulans are darker than them, and can't be made into them without losing what set them apart. Right now the only things they have in common is a self-righteous attitude and pointy ears.
Just because you are incapable of finding any enjoyment or nuance in a canon depiction of the Romulans doesn't mean there's none to be had. None of that changes the fact that a more morally gray depiction of Romulans would be more appropriate than the sacchanine dross the Republic is now.
You Romulans have consistently been antagonistic to the Federation. If that qualifies as '2-dimensional villain' to you, then perhaps Star Trek is not for you, Because they certainly aren't more 2-dimensional than the Cardies, Dominion, or Klingons. Which, between them-accounts for most of the big antagonists of the setting.
The Klingons have an entire functional language. One of them served on the bridge of the Enterprise, and is the longest running character in all of Trek. We see Captain Kirk grow to hate them and eventually come to forgive them. I think it's safe to say that they are better developed.
We spend seven seasons getting to know the Cardassians and the people they've hurt, watching them rise, fall, rise again, and fall again. The shows tell us that the Tal Shiar is terrifying, but we actually SEE the Obsidian Order at work on several occasions. We get Garrick as an important window into their culture, being a better spy and backstabber than any Romulan is ever shown being throughout the entire run from of the TNG era.
The Dominion has three main races, each of which has as much (or more) development and nuance than the Romulans throughout most of TNG, one of which is a beloved main character in all seven seasons of DS9.
Even the BORG, who have no culture and who are not individuals, eventually get a main character in Seven of Nine to explore their viewpoint and what it means to be Borg over many episodes.
Do the Romulans ever get anything like that in TNG? Short answer: no. Long answer: noooooooooooooooooooo. We get Tomalok's smug face, Sela showing up every now and then, and like three episodes total that show Romulan society, and they become a minor plot point in the Dominion War arc.
Interesting that the TOS cheesy faux Romans with their pinks scarves and culottes with their two appearances have 'flair'
The Romulans are interesting in TOS because they are honorable, civilized foes (the Klingons in TOS are neither of those things). The Romulan Commander in Balance of Terror dies respecting Kirk and the Enterprise. The Romulan Commander in Enterprise Incident falls in love with Spock, admits that her people are brutal, savage warriors, but says they are also "many pleasant things" without elaborating, leaving the viewer to wonder. Both episodes also strongly contrast the Romulans with the Vulcans, taking care to show both as two signs of the same coin.
They're interesting characters in the non-canon novels, where they get thousands of pages of unique development that sets them apart from the Klingons and (later) the Cardassians, and their respective sneaky backstabbing traits. They're interesting in the game, because they are normal people fighting for their lives against impossible odds, the first and most wounded of the Iconian's victims coming to pay them back and win their freedom.
In TNG? Dull, one-dimensional caricatures. That's why the Tal Shiar are like that in this game. It is accurate to canon.
Again, I like the non-canon stuff, I like the game stuff, I like the TOS Romulans, and I absolutely adore the idea of Romulans. The execution during the TNG era leaves me very unsatisfied.
But saying they're as developed as the Klingons or Cardassians on the shows themselves? Patently absurd.
The entire warrior-culture ethos that should have been theirs was given to the Klingons during the production of Star Trek 3,
Which was largely becuase they were going to be in Star Trek 3 until someone though it would confuse people so they went with the Klingon with very little rewriting of the characterizations.
Which was largely becuase they were going to be in Star Trek 3 until someone though it would confuse people so they went with the Klingon with very little rewriting of the characterizations.
To me, that's one of the worst missed opportunities in the sad history of Romulans being neglected or misused (along with the forehead ridges).
Romulans are essentially emotional Vulcans. Imagine everything that is brutal or rough or cruel about Klingons, and imagine if THAT is what Vulcans were without logic. Not only does that make it more interesting, it makes Vulcans more interesting.
Instead, they're just kind of racist and totalitarian and into bad haircuts. That's quite a letdown from "Our people are warriors. Often savage. But we are also many other pleasant things. "
Again, I like the non-canon stuff, I like the game stuff, I like the TOS Romulans, and I absolutely adore the idea of Romulans. The execution during the TNG era leaves me very unsatisfied.
But saying they're as developed as the Klingons or Cardassians on the shows themselves? Patently absurd.
I never said they were as developed as the Klingons or Cardies. But from what we have seen they have just as many dimensions as those two. To accuse them of being one dimensional hooligans like the Tal Shiar in STO requires a monumental amount of tunnel vision. Particularly considering you cited several of the TNG examples that differentiate them from being one-dimensional villains. I guess those don't count or something.
Romulans are essentially emotional Vulcans. Imagine everything that is brutal or rough or cruel about Klingons, and imagine if THAT is what Vulcans were without logic. Not only does that make it more interesting, it makes Vulcans more interesting.
Instead, they're just kind of racist and totalitarian and into bad haircuts. That's quite a letdown from "Our people are warriors. Often savage. But we are also many other pleasant things. ".
Right, so you basically show again that you never watched an episode with TNG Romulans in them, and want Romulans running around with Batleths and eating live worms for lunch. IMO that's pretty silly. The Klingons work plenty fine the way they are, and we don't need two of them. There's plenty of room for a sneaky imperialistic militarized faction Like the Romulans, and the Romulans fit that bill perfectly particularly post-DS9 after the Cardassians got messed up by the Dominion.
If you want to play Klingons, there are Klingons. If you want a Federation faction, play Fed. Romulans shouldn't be contorted like pretzels to fit the mold of either. They had a pretty-well established niche pre-LOR whether you appreciate it or not.
Again, I like the non-canon stuff, I like the game stuff, I like the TOS Romulans, and I absolutely adore the idea of Romulans. The execution during the TNG era leaves me very unsatisfied.
But saying they're as developed as the Klingons or Cardassians on the shows themselves? Patently absurd.
Your mouth is moving but no words are coming out.
If you make a claim, cite evidence to back it up, like the person you're responding to did.
"Great War! / And I cannot take more! / Great tour! / I keep on marching on / I play the great score / There will be no encore / Great War! / The War to End All Wars"
— Sabaton, "Great War"
[QUOTE=catoblepasbeta;16876591[/QUOTE]I never said they were as developed as the Klingons or Cardies. But from what we have seen they have just as many dimensions as those two.[/quote]
There's the Tal Shiar dimension, and the not-Tal Shiar dimension, just like in STO. That's fewer shades than all of those you listed, and about as many as the inhabitants of that TRIBBLE planet in TOS.
Particularly considering you cited several of the TNG examples that differentiate them from being one-dimensional villains. I guess those don't count or something.
I said they are one dimensional in most of their appearances.
There is The Defector and Reunification as attempts to give them character. It sort of worked. It gave us the not-Tal Shair side of society, which I guess is two dimensions? It must not have worked very well, though. When LoR came out, people saw you were playing that side, and demanded to play a "real" Romulan.
Manage a Troi sort of counts, even though it does confirm that the Tal Shiar are mono-dimensonal villans. To be fair, though, it also shows that the Reunificationists are willing to be fairly brutal to survive, something I do agree STO should show a little more.
I'm not sure if I should count Nemesis, since it wasn't really about them so much as Shinzon and the Remans, and they were just kinda there. Dontara helped Shinzon to power with his giant starship that can destroy planets, then has second thoughts when it turns out he's going to destroy a planet with it? Whatever, the character motivations in that movie make no sense, I'll give this one a pass in terms of analysis.
On the whole, they are still probably the antagonist faction that the writers liked the least. They thought about adding a Romulan to DS9 when the Defiant was introduced and got it's cloak, but they just kind of dropped it.
Right, so you basically show again that you never watched an episode with TNG Romulans in them, and want Romulans running around with Batleths and eating live worms for lunch. IMO that's pretty silly.
Actually, I think you've never seen the TOS Romulans before. Or the Klingons, for that matter.
In TOS, Romulans were honorable (yet civilized) warriors, and Klingons were sneaky backstabbing fascists. modeled after a 1960s American view of Russians. Star Trek 3 reversed that, giving the Klingons a Bird of Prey with a metallic green hull and feather pattern, cloaking device and a warrior crew, all of which were originally written with the Romulans in mind. Heck, the Bird of Prey was still a stolen Romulan ship until the final draft.
Bat'leths, gagh, dirty metal interiors with way too much red light, all of that came later to make it more "Klingon", but the initial idea behind their culture is Romulan. I honestly wonder what would have happened if it had stayed that way. At the very least, the Romulans would have gotten to keep the B'rel.
Sorry, you're free to disagree, but this is totally how I've felt since TNG was on the air. Romulans got shafted repeatedly in terms of development and screentime.
I never said they were as developed as the Klingons or Cardies. But from what we have seen they have just as many dimensions as those two.
There's the Tal Shiar dimension, and the not-Tal Shiar dimension, just like in STO. That's fewer shades than all of those you listed, and about as many as the inhabitants of that TRIBBLE planet in TOS.
I said they are one dimensional in most of their appearances.
[/QUOTE]
I have to disagree with the idea that TNG Romulans didn't have a lot of dimensions or depths. Off the top of my head, you have:
- At one end of the spectrum, there are complete manipulative nasty backstabbers, yes, like Sela and the senator that helps her in Unification.
- Then you've got people who aren't particularly nice, but they're not completely evil - e.g. Taris, Tomalak.
- Then there are those who are pretty conflicted in their characterisation, such as Toreth being sympathetic in her opposition to the Tal Shiar... but still very much a Romulan military officer, or Tokath, who runs the Klingon prison camp.
- The Romulans are hardly morally good; N'Vek the reunificationist is ruthless and callous, Patahk in "The Enemy" says some nasty things despite working together with Geordi.
- Even Admiral Jarok, who is probably one of the nicest Romulans we see, tries to deceive the Enterprise crew and is pretty conflicted over his actions.
- Probably the only Romulan who's completely good is D'Tan, funnily enough... :P
So... yeah, not what I'd really call one dimensional, or just Tal Shiar or not- Tal Shiar.
I agree you do get some Romulans with no characterisation whatsoever who are pretty one dimensional, but I'd argue that most of the time (in TNG at least) whenever a Romulan is given more than a bit role, they're far more gray than simply black or white.
The Klingons have an entire functional language. One of them served on the bridge of the Enterprise, and is the longest running character in all of Trek. We see Captain Kirk grow to hate them and eventually come to forgive them. I think it's safe to say that they are better developed.
On the whole, they are still probably the antagonist faction that the writers liked the least. They thought about adding a Romulan to DS9 when the Defiant was introduced and got it's cloak, but they just kind of dropped it.
That actress went on to play Seska in Voyager didnt she?
Imagine if they had kept her in DS9.
We still live!!!!! Hahahahahahahahaa! We live and we will conquer!!!!! Hahahahahaaha!
-Roach, when asked about Klingon extinction!
Last I checked, Undine != Iconian. Hence, D'Tan is now an Iconian.
D'Tan is now a changeling pretending to be an Iconian, pretending to be an Undine, pretending to be a Romulan.
This is clearly the only explanation for why he would spy on people at a diplomatic conference where his country might get frozen out by vastly more powerful nations who also happen to both be allied to the Republic while at the same time engaging in a tremendously suspicious war with each other.
D'Tan is now a changeling pretending to be an Iconian, pretending to be an Undine, pretending to be a Romulan.
This is clearly the only explanation for why he would spy on people at a diplomatic conference where his country might get frozen out by vastly more powerful nations who also happen to both be allied to the Republic while at the same time engaging in a tremendously suspicious war with each other.
...so the whole iconian thing is just a changeling plot designed to destabilize the alpha quadrant so the dominion can try again?
A normie goes "Oh, what's this?"
An otaku goes "UwU, what's this?"
A furry goes "OwO, what's this?"
A werewolf goes "Awoo, what's this?"
"It's nothing personal, I just don't feel like I've gotten to know a person until I've sniffed their crotch." "We said 'no' to Mr. Curiosity. We're not home. Curiosity is not welcome, it is not to be invited in. Curiosity...is bad. It gets you in trouble, it gets you killed, and more importantly...it makes you poor!"
Passion and Serenity are one.
I gain power by understanding both.
In the chaos of their battle, I bring order.
I am a shadow, darkness born from light.
The Force is united within me.
...so the whole iconian thing is just a changeling plot designed to destabilize the alpha quadrant so the dominion can try again?
IT ALL MAKES SENSE NOW!!!
I don't know about all of that, but someone did remark on the fact that the "Iconian" we saw in the FE had 6 eyes, like a lot of animal life on ch'Mol'Rihan, and then speculated that the "Iconian" might actually be a Dewan. That has possibilities, but we'll have to wait and see.
I don't know about all of that, but someone did remark on the fact that the "Iconian" we saw in the FE had 6 eyes, like a lot of animal life on ch'Mol'Rihan, and then speculated that the "Iconian" might actually be a Dewan. That has possibilities, but we'll have to wait and see.
Presumably, the Dewans were the short aliens seen in the "Secrets of the Ancients" cutscene you unlock when you hit Romulan Rep Tier 5, that shows the historical records of the activation of the Dewan Gateway. Seen here, you see the little guys activating the gateway, while being clearly subservient to what appears to be an Iconian (same basic body shape, but washed-out white like the rest of the characters in the holo-record).
...talking to players is like being a mall Santa. Everyone immediately wants to tell you all of the things they want, and you are absolutely powerless to deliver 99% of them.
Presumably, the Dewans were the short aliens seen in the "Secrets of the Ancients" cutscene you unlock when you hit Romulan Rep Tier 5, that shows the historical records of the activation of the Dewan Gateway. Seen here, you see the little guys activating the gateway, while being clearly subservient to what appears to be an Iconian (same basic body shape, but washed-out white like the rest of the characters in the holo-record).
D'Tan is now a changeling pretending to be an Iconian, pretending to be an Undine, pretending to be a Romulan.
This is clearly the only explanation for why he would spy on people at a diplomatic conference where his country might get frozen out by vastly more powerful nations who also happen to both be allied to the Republic while at the same time engaging in a tremendously suspicious war with each other.
... Because Cryptic obviously thinks that far ahead.
"Great War! / And I cannot take more! / Great tour! / I keep on marching on / I play the great score / There will be no encore / Great War! / The War to End All Wars"
— Sabaton, "Great War"
Actually, I believe that both spheres should belong to all three factions in terms of control. In terms of who takes point? *shrugs* as the Borg might say, it is irrelevant to the coming events.
Well, the way the universe will work is that there will be a third Dyson sphere found. Then, it will be found out that the third Dyson sphere is inhabited with intelligent amphibious sharks with laser. The federation happily lets the Klingon Empire takes the third Dyson sphere as every human remembers watching Jaws. They want no part of technologically advanced sharks any where near them. Then it is found out that the Jenolan Sphere is invaded by a Caniod species from the M81, again precluding the Federation from taking that sphere as we all know Cats and Dogs living together means the end of times. So the Federation gets Solane with it Jurassic Park, Klingons get to see Jaws first hand, and the Romulans get all those wonderful smells of Canines.
Ok, maybe not.
Ancient Griffon insult
That one is so stupid, he lost a Rock/Paper/Scissors game to a Pony.
Actually, I believe that both spheres should belong to all three factions in terms of control. In terms of who takes point? *shrugs* as the Borg might say, it is irrelevant to the coming events.
It would actually be prudent to let the Republic take point, considering the shooting between the Big Two just recently stopped (officially, anyway). They are the closest thing to a "neutral" third party we have at the moment.
The other problem with D'Tan is that he's continuing to insist that the Republic owns both spheres, despite the fact that the space gate is in Federation space. (Cryptic made a continuity error in "Sphere of Influence": the Jouret system is within Federation borders, not Republic. D'Tan continues with this erroneous reasoning when you talk to him in "Surface Tension".)
I agree. And D'Tan needs to be reminded of these little facts, before the Republic gets it's overreaching hand bitten. The Jouret gateway is officially in Federation territory. The Jenolan Sphere is Federation "soil", regardless of where it's located. And both are now overseen by a tripartite alliance of the major Alpha and Beta Quadrant powers, not the Republic alone. "Leading the charge" doesn't equate "ownership".
On another note, there is something that bothers me about the whole Dyson thing. Something tells me that Starfleet Command, the KDF, and RRF needs to keep a very close eye on the people they put in charge of the Spheres. I may be paranoid, but based on some subtle hints I pick up in the game, I catch a whiff of possible insurrection.
I agree. And D'Tan needs to be reminded of these little facts, before the Republic gets it's overreaching hand bitten.
Romulans love to overreach. Especially when they know their new allies can't afford to let the Voth and Undine control the Spheres.
D'Tan is trying to do what any sensible Romulan would do: increase the power and prestige of his office and nation. I imagine the concept is similar to "saving face' in some Earth cultures. He's just doing it with diplomacy and scruples instead of warbirds and intrigue.
That's a huge improvement. I'm sure the Federation approves of it, in principle if not in practice (because it's preventing THEM from walking away with everything). It's just that most of us players are not trained diplomats, but decadent westerners who wouldn't be able to handle cross-cultural communication if our lives depended on it.
Comments
That one is so stupid, he lost a Rock/Paper/Scissors game to a Pony.
The passionate statesman and patriot who's a bit more than he appears.
Also, success! I have turned this STO thread into a partial TES thread!
Why would they replace me and not D'Tan?
why replace the leader, when you replace those who give the leader infomation and get similar results?
Your advise to put oribital defense around a planet with barely 10K colonists, instead of beefing up our fleet and taking the fight to the enemy seems suspect.
That one is so stupid, he lost a Rock/Paper/Scissors game to a Pony.
TNG Romulans suck and were boring and one dimensional in almost all their appearances.
There, I said it. They have a cool ship design aesthetic, I will give them that, but not much more. They lacked the flair of the old TOS Klingons and Romulans, and never got the development of the Cardassians. The entire warrior-culture ethos that should have been theirs was given to the Klingons during the production of Star Trek 3, leaving them with nothing of their own to work from.
They were the show's genetic bad guys. Most of the time, the writers only trotted them out whenever they didn't feel like inventing a new alien-of-the-week. They were not the first choice for this position. The only reason they came back at all is because the Ferengi didn't work as a recurring adversary, and the writing staff desperately reached back to TOS to find something that could serve in that role. They premiered in an awful episode where a group of random people are treated like Hitler by Picard because they happen to be 20th century capitalists, and if the D'Deridex hadn't had left such an impression, they would have likely been forgotten.
Eventually, we got The Defector and Reunification, which inspired much of the Romulan Republic stuff in STO, but the big complaint when LoR hit was that you couldn't play a "real" Romulan, which if you'd go back and watch the original episodes, means a 2-dimensional idiot villain who smirks ineffectually on the Enterprise's viewscreen for half an hour.
In that sense, the STO Tal Shiar are pretty solid representations of them. We do need to see D'Tan's assertiveness more, but if the Tal Shiar are two-dimensional villains, then that's the writers representing the show.
((We don't know how many people live on ch'Mol'Rihan, but I would be very surprised if the total population is as low as you have estimated.))
The planet needs to be defended. It being undefended is foolish. Such a state only invites aggressors.
Notice I never said anything about not beefing up the fleet. Beefing up the fleet is an ongoing project, and in fact, I did state rather obviously:
"Additional and upgraded weapons must be authorized for all personnel."
And that, of course, refers to biomolecular weapons, authorized for all personnel (not only those involved in Homeworld Defense).
Interesting that the TOS cheesy faux Romans with their pinks scarves and culottes with their two appearances have 'flair' but you can't seem to find anything unique about the TNG-era Romulans.
Romulans have consistently been antagonistic to the Federation. If that qualifies as '2-dimensional villain' to you, then perhaps Star Trek is not for you, Because they certainly aren't more 2-dimensional than the Cardies, Dominion, or Klingons. Which, between them-accounts for most of the big antagonists of the setting.
If you want to play the federation, then you can play the federation. Romulans are darker than them, and can't be made into them without losing what set them apart. Right now the only things they have in common is a self-righteous attitude and pointy ears.
Just because you are incapable of finding any enjoyment or nuance in a canon depiction of the Romulans doesn't mean there's none to be had. None of that changes the fact that a more morally gray depiction of Romulans would be more appropriate than the sacchanine dross the Republic is now.
The Klingons have an entire functional language. One of them served on the bridge of the Enterprise, and is the longest running character in all of Trek. We see Captain Kirk grow to hate them and eventually come to forgive them. I think it's safe to say that they are better developed.
We spend seven seasons getting to know the Cardassians and the people they've hurt, watching them rise, fall, rise again, and fall again. The shows tell us that the Tal Shiar is terrifying, but we actually SEE the Obsidian Order at work on several occasions. We get Garrick as an important window into their culture, being a better spy and backstabber than any Romulan is ever shown being throughout the entire run from of the TNG era.
The Dominion has three main races, each of which has as much (or more) development and nuance than the Romulans throughout most of TNG, one of which is a beloved main character in all seven seasons of DS9.
Even the BORG, who have no culture and who are not individuals, eventually get a main character in Seven of Nine to explore their viewpoint and what it means to be Borg over many episodes.
Do the Romulans ever get anything like that in TNG? Short answer: no. Long answer: noooooooooooooooooooo. We get Tomalok's smug face, Sela showing up every now and then, and like three episodes total that show Romulan society, and they become a minor plot point in the Dominion War arc.
The Romulans are interesting in TOS because they are honorable, civilized foes (the Klingons in TOS are neither of those things). The Romulan Commander in Balance of Terror dies respecting Kirk and the Enterprise. The Romulan Commander in Enterprise Incident falls in love with Spock, admits that her people are brutal, savage warriors, but says they are also "many pleasant things" without elaborating, leaving the viewer to wonder. Both episodes also strongly contrast the Romulans with the Vulcans, taking care to show both as two signs of the same coin.
They're interesting characters in the non-canon novels, where they get thousands of pages of unique development that sets them apart from the Klingons and (later) the Cardassians, and their respective sneaky backstabbing traits. They're interesting in the game, because they are normal people fighting for their lives against impossible odds, the first and most wounded of the Iconian's victims coming to pay them back and win their freedom.
In TNG? Dull, one-dimensional caricatures. That's why the Tal Shiar are like that in this game. It is accurate to canon.
But saying they're as developed as the Klingons or Cardassians on the shows themselves? Patently absurd.
Which was largely becuase they were going to be in Star Trek 3 until someone though it would confuse people so they went with the Klingon with very little rewriting of the characterizations.
To me, that's one of the worst missed opportunities in the sad history of Romulans being neglected or misused (along with the forehead ridges).
Romulans are essentially emotional Vulcans. Imagine everything that is brutal or rough or cruel about Klingons, and imagine if THAT is what Vulcans were without logic. Not only does that make it more interesting, it makes Vulcans more interesting.
Instead, they're just kind of racist and totalitarian and into bad haircuts. That's quite a letdown from "Our people are warriors. Often savage. But we are also many other pleasant things. "
I never said they were as developed as the Klingons or Cardies. But from what we have seen they have just as many dimensions as those two. To accuse them of being one dimensional hooligans like the Tal Shiar in STO requires a monumental amount of tunnel vision. Particularly considering you cited several of the TNG examples that differentiate them from being one-dimensional villains. I guess those don't count or something.
Right, so you basically show again that you never watched an episode with TNG Romulans in them, and want Romulans running around with Batleths and eating live worms for lunch. IMO that's pretty silly. The Klingons work plenty fine the way they are, and we don't need two of them. There's plenty of room for a sneaky imperialistic militarized faction Like the Romulans, and the Romulans fit that bill perfectly particularly post-DS9 after the Cardassians got messed up by the Dominion.
If you want to play Klingons, there are Klingons. If you want a Federation faction, play Fed. Romulans shouldn't be contorted like pretzels to fit the mold of either. They had a pretty-well established niche pre-LOR whether you appreciate it or not.
Your mouth is moving but no words are coming out.
If you make a claim, cite evidence to back it up, like the person you're responding to did.
— Sabaton, "Great War"
Check out https://unitedfederationofpla.net/s/
There's the Tal Shiar dimension, and the not-Tal Shiar dimension, just like in STO. That's fewer shades than all of those you listed, and about as many as the inhabitants of that TRIBBLE planet in TOS.
I said they are one dimensional in most of their appearances.
There is The Defector and Reunification as attempts to give them character. It sort of worked. It gave us the not-Tal Shair side of society, which I guess is two dimensions? It must not have worked very well, though. When LoR came out, people saw you were playing that side, and demanded to play a "real" Romulan.
Manage a Troi sort of counts, even though it does confirm that the Tal Shiar are mono-dimensonal villans. To be fair, though, it also shows that the Reunificationists are willing to be fairly brutal to survive, something I do agree STO should show a little more.
I'm not sure if I should count Nemesis, since it wasn't really about them so much as Shinzon and the Remans, and they were just kinda there. Dontara helped Shinzon to power with his giant starship that can destroy planets, then has second thoughts when it turns out he's going to destroy a planet with it? Whatever, the character motivations in that movie make no sense, I'll give this one a pass in terms of analysis.
On the whole, they are still probably the antagonist faction that the writers liked the least. They thought about adding a Romulan to DS9 when the Defiant was introduced and got it's cloak, but they just kind of dropped it.
Actually, I think you've never seen the TOS Romulans before. Or the Klingons, for that matter.
In TOS, Romulans were honorable (yet civilized) warriors, and Klingons were sneaky backstabbing fascists. modeled after a 1960s American view of Russians. Star Trek 3 reversed that, giving the Klingons a Bird of Prey with a metallic green hull and feather pattern, cloaking device and a warrior crew, all of which were originally written with the Romulans in mind. Heck, the Bird of Prey was still a stolen Romulan ship until the final draft.
Bat'leths, gagh, dirty metal interiors with way too much red light, all of that came later to make it more "Klingon", but the initial idea behind their culture is Romulan. I honestly wonder what would have happened if it had stayed that way. At the very least, the Romulans would have gotten to keep the B'rel.
Sorry, you're free to disagree, but this is totally how I've felt since TNG was on the air. Romulans got shafted repeatedly in terms of development and screentime.
There's the Tal Shiar dimension, and the not-Tal Shiar dimension, just like in STO. That's fewer shades than all of those you listed, and about as many as the inhabitants of that TRIBBLE planet in TOS.
I said they are one dimensional in most of their appearances.
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I have to disagree with the idea that TNG Romulans didn't have a lot of dimensions or depths. Off the top of my head, you have:
- At one end of the spectrum, there are complete manipulative nasty backstabbers, yes, like Sela and the senator that helps her in Unification.
- Then you've got people who aren't particularly nice, but they're not completely evil - e.g. Taris, Tomalak.
- Then there are those who are pretty conflicted in their characterisation, such as Toreth being sympathetic in her opposition to the Tal Shiar... but still very much a Romulan military officer, or Tokath, who runs the Klingon prison camp.
- The Romulans are hardly morally good; N'Vek the reunificationist is ruthless and callous, Patahk in "The Enemy" says some nasty things despite working together with Geordi.
- Even Admiral Jarok, who is probably one of the nicest Romulans we see, tries to deceive the Enterprise crew and is pretty conflicted over his actions.
- Probably the only Romulan who's completely good is D'Tan, funnily enough... :P
So... yeah, not what I'd really call one dimensional, or just Tal Shiar or not- Tal Shiar.
I agree you do get some Romulans with no characterisation whatsoever who are pretty one dimensional, but I'd argue that most of the time (in TNG at least) whenever a Romulan is given more than a bit role, they're far more gray than simply black or white.
That actress went on to play Seska in Voyager didnt she?
Imagine if they had kept her in DS9.
We still live!!!!! Hahahahahahahahaa! We live and we will conquer!!!!! Hahahahahaaha!
-Roach, when asked about Klingon extinction!
I would have loved to have seen how Romulans would have developed on DS9, after the Cardiassians ran off with our sneaky backstabber hat.
You already missed "D'Tan is an Undine".
Last I checked, Undine != Iconian. Hence, D'Tan is now an Iconian.
D'Tan is now a changeling pretending to be an Iconian, pretending to be an Undine, pretending to be a Romulan.
This is clearly the only explanation for why he would spy on people at a diplomatic conference where his country might get frozen out by vastly more powerful nations who also happen to both be allied to the Republic while at the same time engaging in a tremendously suspicious war with each other.
IT ALL MAKES SENSE NOW!!!
#LegalizeAwoo
A normie goes "Oh, what's this?"
An otaku goes "UwU, what's this?"
A furry goes "OwO, what's this?"
A werewolf goes "Awoo, what's this?"
"It's nothing personal, I just don't feel like I've gotten to know a person until I've sniffed their crotch."
"We said 'no' to Mr. Curiosity. We're not home. Curiosity is not welcome, it is not to be invited in. Curiosity...is bad. It gets you in trouble, it gets you killed, and more importantly...it makes you poor!"
I don't know about all of that, but someone did remark on the fact that the "Iconian" we saw in the FE had 6 eyes, like a lot of animal life on ch'Mol'Rihan, and then speculated that the "Iconian" might actually be a Dewan. That has possibilities, but we'll have to wait and see.
But D'Tan is D'Tan, a Romulan.
Presumably, the Dewans were the short aliens seen in the "Secrets of the Ancients" cutscene you unlock when you hit Romulan Rep Tier 5, that shows the historical records of the activation of the Dewan Gateway. Seen here, you see the little guys activating the gateway, while being clearly subservient to what appears to be an Iconian (same basic body shape, but washed-out white like the rest of the characters in the holo-record).
Dewan = E.T.
Romulan Institute
D'Galan - Engineer
... Because Cryptic obviously thinks that far ahead.
— Sabaton, "Great War"
Check out https://unitedfederationofpla.net/s/
Ok, maybe not.
That one is so stupid, he lost a Rock/Paper/Scissors game to a Pony.
It would actually be prudent to let the Republic take point, considering the shooting between the Big Two just recently stopped (officially, anyway). They are the closest thing to a "neutral" third party we have at the moment.
@starswordc
I agree. And D'Tan needs to be reminded of these little facts, before the Republic gets it's overreaching hand bitten. The Jouret gateway is officially in Federation territory. The Jenolan Sphere is Federation "soil", regardless of where it's located. And both are now overseen by a tripartite alliance of the major Alpha and Beta Quadrant powers, not the Republic alone. "Leading the charge" doesn't equate "ownership".
On another note, there is something that bothers me about the whole Dyson thing. Something tells me that Starfleet Command, the KDF, and RRF needs to keep a very close eye on the people they put in charge of the Spheres. I may be paranoid, but based on some subtle hints I pick up in the game, I catch a whiff of possible insurrection.
Romulans love to overreach. Especially when they know their new allies can't afford to let the Voth and Undine control the Spheres.
D'Tan is trying to do what any sensible Romulan would do: increase the power and prestige of his office and nation. I imagine the concept is similar to "saving face' in some Earth cultures. He's just doing it with diplomacy and scruples instead of warbirds and intrigue.
That's a huge improvement. I'm sure the Federation approves of it, in principle if not in practice (because it's preventing THEM from walking away with everything). It's just that most of us players are not trained diplomats, but decadent westerners who wouldn't be able to handle cross-cultural communication if our lives depended on it.