While I knew what D'Tan was doing, trying to keep from being frozen out of the discussions with Federation and Klingons, my principal romulan character, A'nya thought he was being another backstabbing homeworld Romulan that didn't care anything but his power. Her view is there is 2 cultures in Romulan society, the homeworld one, represented by the backstabbing politicians and military leaders fighting over scraps, and the colonial Romulans, who created a new life by actually working together and getting their hands dirty by hard work and determination, not by slight of hand and honey words. To her, working together for the common good will help everyone, not just the elite, so for her to listen to D'Tan try to muscle in what should be done about the sphere and not the threat of the Undine was horrific.
Of course, i am drawing upon 2 historical events, the breakup of the Roman Empire, and the American revolution in shaping A'nya views. Of course, she has no real knowledge of that or would she really care. Her being an orphan on a forgotten colony is enough for her not to want the RSE to comeback ever again.
Ancient Griffon insult
That one is so stupid, he lost a Rock/Paper/Scissors game to a Pony.
The other problem with D'Tan is that he's continuing to insist that the Republic owns both spheres, despite the fact that the space gate is in Federation space. (Cryptic made a continuity error in "Sphere of Influence": the Jouret system is within Federation borders, not Republic. D'Tan continues with this erroneous reasoning when you talk to him in "Surface Tension".)
"Great War! / And I cannot take more! / Great tour! / I keep on marching on / I play the great score / There will be no encore / Great War! / The War to End All Wars"
— Sabaton, "Great War"
Exactly. I hate how both sides are written. This little bit from D'Tan is one of the few times I felt they got the characterization right.
Even the Borg episode revamp keeps the "supervillain" Tal Shiar -- that mission would be so much better without the Republic prisoners, you'd actually have a bit of a moral dilemma at the end. Can you really fault the Empire for experimenting with Borg technology, when the Federation and Klingons do the exact same thing? But no, the prisoners pretty much shove it in your face that the Star Empire is evil, no subtlety there.
Nice to know I wasn't the only one who liked the revamp of that episode. When the captain was just a RSE captain, and wasn't experimenting on captives/torturing them to death it was a much more nuanced mission. If my memory serves me correctly she even used to call the player out for basically kicking someone when they are down. The choice actually used to take a bit of thought.
Now she's just another psychotic Tal Shiar commander and the choice has no depth whatsoever. Very disappointing IMO.
I like that D'Tan has a spine. I think people got the idea somehow that he's an ineffectual little lamb and the Republic is perfectly moral in every single one of it's dealings. Don't people look at DOFF missions? We've been hacking into Fed and KDF computers and tricking them into fighting the Tal Shiar for us since day 1.
Whatever. I'm glad people are realizing that there's depth in the Republic, and there's a lot more storytelling potential there than if we were all playing as 2-dimensional Tomalok clones.
Honestly the scenario is really hurt by Cryptic's cartoonish writing and voice-acting. Despite his actions Hakeev comes off as a posturing buffoon instead of the clever monster the plot really calls for.
* So she says anyway. YMMV on whether it's the truth.
I actually disagree that the writing is wrong. Hakeev should have been the posturing buffon we see him as. He willingly subjected himself to Iconians, he willingly killed billions of romulans and remans and scattered his people because of it and he's claiming that it was all in the furtherance of Romulan position in an Iconian regime.
He is a posturing buffon, if he ever thought the Iconians saw him as more than a tool to be used and then discarded. Then he really is the buffoon. The posturing is that he was trying to curry favour with people whom he saw as potential new overlords and posturing a position.
Exactly. I hate how both sides are written. This little bit from D'Tan is one of the few times I felt they got the characterization right.
Even the Borg episode revamp keeps the "supervillain" Tal Shiar -- that mission would be so much better without the Republic prisoners, you'd actually have a bit of a moral dilemma at the end. Can you really fault the Empire for experimenting with Borg technology, when the Federation and Klingons do the exact same thing? But no, the prisoners pretty much shove it in your face that the Star Empire is evil, no subtlety there.
Yeah, see, this is not a new thing. Remember the bit in the Romulan storyline where you get captured and brainwashed and forced to perform Borg implantation experiments on a Republic POW? Or did you conveniently wipe that out of your memory?
"Great War! / And I cannot take more! / Great tour! / I keep on marching on / I play the great score / There will be no encore / Great War! / The War to End All Wars"
— Sabaton, "Great War"
Yeah, see, this is not a new thing. Remember the bit in the Romulan storyline where you get captured and brainwashed and forced to perform Borg implantation experiments on a Republic POW? Or did you conveniently wipe that out of your memory?
Ahem to borrow a few words "this is not a new thing". This mission (the one where you rescue the captain) came before the Romulan Republic storyline mustache twirling mission mindgames. It got retconned but it doesn't change the fact that the RSE captain (pre retcon) wasn't a bad person or some"60's villain" parody that is the tal'shiar in this game.
I like that D'Tan has a spine. I think people got the idea somehow that he's an ineffectual little lamb and the Republic is perfectly moral in every single one of it's dealings. Don't people look at DOFF missions? We've been hacking into Fed and KDF computers and tricking them into fighting the Tal Shiar for us since day 1.
Whatever. I'm glad people are realizing that there's depth in the Republic, and there's a lot more storytelling potential there than if we were all playing as 2-dimensional Tomalok clones.
Well, lets not exaggerate things. Aside from a few Doff missions, there really wasn't much of anything, and the Klingon doff missions are nastier than the republic exclusive ones at any rate.
What we *did* have previously was some particularly hamfisted episodic content focused around Tovan Khev's ex-girlfriend. In which the devs felt it was necessary to drill it into players heads that D'Tan would never do anything morally questionable to gain an advantage over the Empire, and that anything that the Empire accuses them of is a blatent lie.
It's about time we got some Romulans acting as something other than black hats or white hats. It's a shame it came at the expense of the Romulan Military/Tal Shair captain, who went from a sympathetic/grey character to antoher faceless thug.
Okay, I'll agree that the addition to the Rom captain in the Borg/Undine arc wasn't really a plot necessity.
"Great War! / And I cannot take more! / Great tour! / I keep on marching on / I play the great score / There will be no encore / Great War! / The War to End All Wars"
— Sabaton, "Great War"
Ahem to borrow a few words "this is not a new thing". This mission (the one where you rescue the captain) came before the Romulan Republic storyline mustache twirling mission mindgames. It got retconned but it doesn't change the fact that the RSE captain (pre retcon) wasn't a bad person or some"60's villain" parody that is the tal'shiar in this game.
Previous we had a Romulan Star Empire Warbird that had Borg tech, that was it ... whatever call you made it was simply "do we allow the Romulans to have Borg technology?" since that was it, no more and no less.
Now they are shoving their TAL SHIAR into everything were the tone is THIS IS THE RESULT OF VERY EVIL EXPERIMENTATION so there is a morality choice were none existed previous, this is not Star Trek ... this is Star Wars and excuse me when I dont find very interesting in Haarkev being turned into Darth Oculus as if this is a Sunday morning cartoon.
Its utter unnecessary as well because the Tal Shiar pretty much ceased to exist with Haarkev death and Sela disappearance, they are trying to make the Romulan Navy into the Tal Shiar, this is NOT how hthings worked and I rather see the proper Romulan Navy instead of these Sunday Morning Cartoons Villeins because, again, this is Star Trek.
Hakeev named Commander Ruul as his successor to lead the Tal'Shiar. My shooting Hakeev in the face did not end the Tal'Shiar, unfortunately. I also had to arrest Ruul (although I would have preferred shooting him in the face as well), and even then, the Tal'Shiar did not end, again unfortunately.
Let's also get a few things straight.
Cartoons in the States were traditionally shown on Saturday mornings, not Sunday mornings. Most (all?) of the networks still follow this practice.
References to "60s villain parodies" is also nonsensical. Have you even watched TOS? The "villains" in TOS were not made campy and one-dimensional. There's plenty of moral ambiguity there. If you want the black and white TRIBBLE, Pure As The Driven Snow Maiden Of Virtue Rescued From Dark Mustachioed Villain With No Redeeming Qualities By White Hat Wearing Boy Scout Who's Too Stupid/Ignorant To Be Interesting (by which I mean in part "too stupid/ignorant to realize that the world is not merely black and white), then you've got to go back to the 40s and 50s (especially during the McCarthy era). You might come close in some of the 60s programs like Batman, but even there, the villains were not always one-dimensional, uninteresting bunglers. The return of Dragnet in 1967 (it had originally run from 1951-1959) was one of those last gasp things on the part of the puritans and their ilk to "restore" television to what it had been in the 50s, but it just didn't work, because the audience had become more sophisticated by then. The revived Dragnet went off the air in 1971.
Hakeev was an idiot. How he became the leader of the Tal'Shiar is a mystery, but I would suggest that one of the later Praetors of the Empire put him in that position.
This is not incredible or fantastic. The Roman Empire demonstrates what are arguably even more ridiculous appointments in its history. If memory serves correctly, some Caesar (Nero? Domitian? Commodus? Caligula?) even appointed an animal to a high office.
The Tal'Shiar is a bad thing, mkay? Cryptic isn't responsible for that.
The Tal'Shiar is also not representative of what i means to be Romulan. TOS established that long before there was a Tal'Shiar.
Stop crying over the Tal'Shiar being shown for what they truly are. As for the RSE Commander in the mission, I only played it once before the re-write, so I don't remember her as fondly as some of you seem to, and am not bent out of shape over her being rewritten to fit the new storyline (there's a lot of stuff that needs to be rewritten, as you all know).
Hakeev named Commander Ruul as his successor to lead the Tal'Shiar. My shooting Hakeev in the face did not end the Tal'Shiar, unfortunately. I also had to arrest Ruul (although I would have preferred shooting him in the face as well), and even then, the Tal'Shiar did not end, again unfortunately.
Let's also get a few things straight.
Cartoons in the States were traditionally shown on Saturday mornings, not Sunday mornings. Most (all?) of the networks still follow this practice.
References to "60s villain parodies" is also nonsensical. Have you even watched TOS? The "villains" in TOS were not made campy and one-dimensional. There's plenty of moral ambiguity there. If you want the black and white TRIBBLE, Pure As The Driven Snow Maiden Of Virtue Rescued From Dark Mustachioed Villain With No Redeeming Qualities By White Hat Wearing Boy Scout Who's Too Stupid/Ignorant To Be Interesting (by which I mean in part "too stupid/ignorant to realize that the world is not merely black and white), then you've got to go back to the 40s and 50s (especially during the McCarthy era). You might come close in some of the 60s programs like Batman, but even there, the villains were not always one-dimensional, uninteresting bunglers. The return of Dragnet in 1967 (it had originally run from 1951-1959) was one of those last gasp things on the part of the puritans and their ilk to "restore" television to what it had been in the 50s, but it just didn't work, because the audience had become more sophisticated by then. The revived Dragnet went off the air in 1971.
Hakeev was an idiot. How he became the leader of the Tal'Shiar is a mystery, but I would suggest that one of the later Praetors of the Empire put him in that position.
This is not incredible or fantastic. The Roman Empire demonstrates what are arguably even more ridiculous appointments in its history. If memory serves correctly, some Caesar (Nero? Domitian? Commodus? Caligula?) even appointed an animal to a high office.
The Tal'Shiar is a bad thing, mkay? Cryptic isn't responsible for that.
The Tal'Shiar is also not representative of what i means to be Romulan. TOS established that long before there was a Tal'Shiar.
Stop crying over the Tal'Shiar being shown for what they truly are. As for the RSE Commander in the mission, I only played it once before the re-write, so I don't remember her as fondly as some of you seem to, and am not bent out of shape over her being rewritten to fit the new storyline (there's a lot of stuff that needs to be rewritten, as you all know).
Oh boy, here we go again.
Hair splitting over what day of the week one watches their one-dimensional morality plays aside, we aren't talking about campy TOS era Romulans here. The STO Romulans are pretty heavily influenced by the myriad of Romulan appearances post the two in TOS.
I think it's pretty obvious to most that the Romulans (and Klingons) were basically reinvented for TNG-era, ENT's clumsy attempt to reconcile the TNG and TOS Klingons being the only real attempt to fit them together.
Gene's policy for reconcile the TOS Klingons and TNG Klingons was to 'pretend they were always that way all along' (ridged foreheads and all) I prefer a similar approach for Romulans. I think the show runners did as well, considering even in ENT they stuck with the post-TOS envisioning, going so far as to include Remans and Nemesis-era uniforms.
And yes, many of the TOS-era and early TNG episodes could be monumentally heavy handed in how they dealt with morality.
And we aren't crying over Tal Shiar portrayal necessarily. They did some nasty things in DS9, but nothing necessarily more horrible than what the Romulan Military did. The problem is that the RSE is apparently blacklisted from showing any positive traits whatsoever. Heck, even the Dominion is portrayed in a more positive light in STO than the Star Empire.
Tal Shiar may have been bad, but so was the Romulan military, a few TOS portrayals aside. But neither really approached the level of complete evil that the STO Tal Shiar occupy. Even Tomalak had his moments. They felt more like people and less like caricatures, 'bad' or not.
Pre-change the old Romulan commander was a much more subtle portrayal. She wasn't even really guilty of anything that Federation or KDF hadn't done (I'm looking at you Omega rep).
The RSE history has a variety of good and bad Praetors, Emperors, Empresses, Senators, Proconsuls, First Consuls, whatever. Before the Star Empire existed, the first "Ruling Queen of the Two Worlds" was mad. Like the Roman Empire, the RSE has at times been led by individuals who were quite insane, or otherwise "not competent to make decisions." With leaders of such calibre, and with Sela's push to reinvest the noble Houseclans with political authority, is it really so hard to understand that Colonel Hakeev was insane? Evil? No. Insane? Yes. Criminally so. Or afflicted with Tuvan Syndrome. Certainly not competent to be in the position he was in. The same can be argued of Sela and Taris, to a lesser extent (neither of them seems quite so dissociated from reality, although definitely insulated from reality). The RSE as it was left when Hakeev was killed and Sela carried away was an RSE whose government and secret police were headed by those who should not have been entrusted with such authority, and who appointed sycophants, or those most like them (Ruul was basically Hakeev Lite). If anything of the RSE now survives apart from the Tal'Shiar, it will take them some time to cleanse their ranks of those who should not be there. But the cycle of abuse is one from which some never seem to break free. I'm not sure the RSE can break free. It became so corrupt in its very core that I cannot fathom a desire to reform it. I don't think it can be reformed. We have now the opportunity for freedom and self-determination, virtues which actuated our ancestors to leave Vulcan. Why would we, and why should we, discard it in preference for something which has clearly failed to realize those virtues for our peoples?
Hakeev thought he had a good reason. He's in thrall to the Iconians (by choice, no less) and they told him to do it. He in turn duped* Taris into pulling the actual trigger.
Honestly the scenario is really hurt by Cryptic's cartoonish writing and voice-acting. Despite his actions Hakeev comes off as a posturing buffoon instead of the clever monster the plot really calls for.
* So she says anyway. YMMV on whether it's the truth.
I agree. Basically, it seems the Iconians offered a choice to Hakeev : blow up the Homeworld, take control of the RSE, and become an ally of the Iconians, or have their Empire crushed by them first (Iconia is in the RSE space). As a good old villain, he choose to have the Empire stay alive no matter the cost (a good old hero would have choose to fight, and won, after his ultimate sacrifice for the better good).
Exactly. I hate how both sides are written. This little bit from D'Tan is one of the few times I felt they got the characterization right.
Even the Borg episode revamp keeps the "supervillain" Tal Shiar -- that mission would be so much better without the Republic prisoners, you'd actually have a bit of a moral dilemma at the end. Can you really fault the Empire for experimenting with Borg technology, when the Federation and Klingons do the exact same thing? But no, the prisoners pretty much shove it in your face that the Star Empire is evil, no subtlety there.
I agree. There was no real choice anymore. Either be evil and let them go, or being the good guy. Also, considering your faction is at war with them, letting them go is also the "stupid" choice.
Before that it was different. The Romulan were using Borg tech, so what ? Klingons and Fed already do that. Why should we stop them for doing so ? Because we are better than them ? And what about the prime directive ?
I didn't see any "backstabbing" in D'tan's speech, merely political maneuvering and posturing and also trying to be more assertive on the international stage, so to speak, rather than beggars as equals.
This has always been my interpretation of D'Tan. He's rejected the overtly evil ways of the Tal Shiar, but he's not above getting his hands dirty if it helps ensure the Romulan Republic has a prominent place in the galaxy.
I know many people saw the dual alliances with the Federation and Klingons as D'Tan somehow giving the Romulan people over to the other factions, but I always thought it could be interpreted differently. By joining forces with both sides of the Federation-Klingon war, D'Tan not only ensured protection from the Tal Shiar, but actually manipulated both sides into providing more help than they may have been inclined to, in order to keep the Republic from moving to once side of the conflict over the other.
The discovery of the Solanae Dyson Sphere in Republic space was a prime opportunity for D'Tan to turn the Republic into a major player in the quadrant, and I'm glad to see that he embraced it.
...talking to players is like being a mall Santa. Everyone immediately wants to tell you all of the things they want, and you are absolutely powerless to deliver 99% of them.
I agree. Basically, it seems the Iconians offered a choice to Hakeev : blow up the Homeworld, take control of the RSE, and become an ally of the Iconians, or have their Empire crushed by them first (Iconia is in the RSE space).
In canon, Iconia is actually in the Romulan Neutral zone. You can somewhat see this on the Galaxy map (It's smack in the middle of the 'black' space between the blue-fed and green-rom areas) although there is nothing labeled as such. (Sector Z-6)
I've never understood the "Evil, evil" Motif RSE people are contempt to portray. When Picard visits Romulus to meet Spock, the common people are nearly "human" in their own ways. The lady who owns the cafe even gives them the soup they ordered for free.
D'Tan wasn't acting "evil", he was acting for the benefits of the Republic and this is how our own Earthly "Hoo-Man" international politics goes. We record and we spy for our own interests.
I didn't see any "backstabbing" in D'tan's speech, merely political maneuvering and posturing and also trying to be more assertive on the international stage, so to speak, rather than beggars as equals. He's trying to keep the Romulans in control of the situation and as the leader, which makes sense, because while they've begun to recover, they're nowhere near the strength of the Klingons and Federation.
If the Klingons and Federation no longer have any need of the Republic, they can start to push them down and out from any gains made and the Republic isn't in any position to truly protest or counter, since they are the weakest of the three powers. This would put the Republic into a position similar to the Defari or Ferengi, a secondary power, which is not what the Romulans want to be. Bear in mind that while the Romulans of the Republic are not the same as the old Empire, they are still Romulan. They still are a proud people, and arguably have every right to be, I mean, how many species have lost not one, but TWO homeworlds (Vulcan and then Romulus) and gotten up and pulled themselves together and made star-spanning Empires? How many species can point out that they came from truly nothing, rejected by their own civilization, and yet became more powerful and populous than those who cast them out? There's a good reason for Romulan arrogance and pride, and it's good to see that D'tan and the Republic still reflect that stubborn passion that makes Romulans what they are.
We'll see how it goes. The Republic does want to play nice with its neighbors. Not just because they're weaker or to maintain a united front against more dangerous foes, but because they are trying a different path than the one they previously tread. But they also do not want to become a mere Federation protectorate like the Cardassians, or a subject race of the Klingons, like the Gorn. So they must sometimes assert strength and independence, to show that they're not just a tag-along, but that they are one of the three Great Powers of the Alpha and Beta Quadrants, and deserve to stand as equals with the hegemonic powers of the Klingons and Federation.
I wish we could vote up.
"The Republic does want to play nice with its neighbors."
I think they want to go back to to having honour and not just full on deception with no honor. Even Klingons run a spy network.
A normie goes "Oh, what's this?"
An otaku goes "UwU, what's this?"
A furry goes "OwO, what's this?"
A werewolf goes "Awoo, what's this?"
"It's nothing personal, I just don't feel like I've gotten to know a person until I've sniffed their crotch." "We said 'no' to Mr. Curiosity. We're not home. Curiosity is not welcome, it is not to be invited in. Curiosity...is bad. It gets you in trouble, it gets you killed, and more importantly...it makes you poor!"
Passion and Serenity are one.
I gain power by understanding both.
In the chaos of their battle, I bring order.
I am a shadow, darkness born from light.
The Force is united within me.
Not to mention the fact that she's the only normal, unaligned Romulan civilian we see in the entirety of the shows, and her behavior synchs pretty well with what we see of the Military and Tal Shiar. The rest of the civilians in the episode warzerior is citing with the soup lady who had speaking roles were all reunificationists...and it turned out their movement had covert government support in order to facilitate the invasion of Vulcan at that time.
As for 'The enemy' While it was heartwarming to see geordi reach a form of understanding with the Romulan, are people forgetting that this same Romulan mentioned that Romulans born with birth defects are killed, that Romulans planned to commit total genocide on the human species, or that the other Romulan died rather than accept a transfusion from a Klingon? Such items paint a much harsher culture, much more distrustful, even hateful, of the Klingons and Federation than the Rosy picture that gets painted of the 'common Romulan' in the Republic storyline. They are a far cry from the loonies in STO's Tal Shiar, but they are certainly on the 'dark grey' end of things compared to the Federation on whole. IMO It says a lot about the previous status of the Romulan storyline that D'Tan acting the slightest bit dishonest is such a big deal.
Am I the only one who is reminded of Ulfric by D'Tan's actions?
Only partially. General case yes, specifics no.
For a start D'Tan has actually timed his breakaway movement properly - a weakened RSE was all that the Republic faced at the start, whereas Ulfric launched his Rebellion straight into one moderately serious enemy who really should be an ally, (the Empire) and one very serious enemy who is waiting for the right moment to strike. (the 4th Aldmeri Dominion)
And D'Tan doesn't have a potential god/goddess to assist him if he plays his cards right, unlike Ulfric, who does. (subject to player choices)
I don't see D'Tan's actions as in any way "dishonest." I don't see anything he did in this episode as ethically questionable, let alone worthy of being regarded as "black" or "dark grey." As Chief of New Romulan Military Intelligence, I'm the New Romulan spymistress, of course, so recording things is not an act which I would view in such a manner, but even so, this was done openly, in full view of all the delegates. Having a record of what transpired is the opposite of dishonest, because it guarantees that all parties will be kept honest (faithful to the accord) by virtue of the record itself. When one attends such an event, one should expect to be recorded.
D'Tan acted in the interests of the Republic. He serves our people, unlike the majority of the Emperors, Praetors, and Empresses of the Star Empire. He does this according to his understanding of what is good for our people, and he hears the counsel of other persons in the government of the Republic, including every member of New Romulan Star Command (such as myself) and the Continuing Committee (such as myself). D'Tan has never acted except in the interests of the Republic. While he may not always make the right decisions, he does what he truly believes to be best for our people. Sometimes that means pushing against the Federation and/or the Klingon Empire (Orion Syndicate), jockeying for position, stating our territorial claims, praising our past efforts, reminding our allies that we are indeed still one of the Big Three.
D'Tan has always been like this; some of you just never gave him the chance to display more than what your first impression of him was.
that Romulans planned to commit total genocide on the human species
Sorry, but where exactly are you getting this?
Shinzon, Picards Evil Clone, DID plan to commit total genocide, but the Romulan military wanted no such thing and tried to stop Shinzon to avoid being tainted by his crimes.
Or perhaps your thinking about JJ trek, where a group of romulans who have clearly gone insane with grief are willing to take to the most extreme measures to exact vengeance and in their own way believing themselves to prevent the destruction of their homeworld and the decimation of their species.
I've never understood the "Evil, evil" Motif RSE people are contempt to portray. When Picard visits Romulus to meet Spock, the common people are nearly "human" in their own ways. The lady who owns the cafe even gives them the soup they ordered for free.
D'Tan wasn't acting "evil", he was acting for the benefits of the Republic and this is how our own Earthly "Hoo-Man" international politics goes. We record and we spy for our own interests.
Thing is, we don't view them as one dimensional. That's just how the game writes both sides pretty much all the time. The Republic is good, the Empire is evil, and when there's actually a gray area they have to go back and "fix" the mission to drive this point home.
Like you and others have pointed out, D'Tan does nothing in the FE that a good politician wouldn't. But coming from this game, that's something new. It's a subtlety the writing usually doesn't enjoy. I really hope it continues, because it'll make for far more interesting characters.
No thats Cryptic's depiction of the Tal Shiar/RSE remnant atm.
You may disagree but you need to state something substantiating the statement to make it more than opinion.
Sela is clearly multifaceted and did everything in her power to gain control and become a ruler. You may object to the means and how she governs but guess what, so did much of those who joined into the Romulan Republic.
We learn through the episodes not all the Tal'Shiar are fully aware or complicit of their superior's actions (Charva). (Grey)
Hakeev's main resentment comes from Shinzon's rebellion and the freedom of the Remans. Keep in mind this did destabilize the RSE prior to even the Hobus supernova. There was a vacuum of power that was bound to be exploited by various existing factions within the RSE and according to the Libraries this did indeed happen.
Hakeev and Sela see themselves as the rightful rulers of all Romulans, something that is much disagreed by many Romulan factions, especially prior to Sela's declaration. Many colony planets were fighting to be the new capital and central government (again... if you read the libraries...). Sela entered a fractured people who were already infighting and all it did was create some stability but not enough. Her Crown rested in her military might, something D'Tan knew and worked to create his own Militia to create the Romulan Republic more inline with TRADTIONAL Romulan government as Shinzon (An Alien and "Reman" did disolve...) (Senate etc).
Hakeev sees/saw the Iconians as superior or surmised couldn't be stopped and allied with them so as to "save" the Romulan people even at the great expense of "traitors" and innocent civilian's lives. It is never clear how much Sela was aware of all of this and Taris clearly disagreed with everything.
Thing is, we don't view them as one dimensional. That's just how the game writes both sides pretty much all the time. The Republic is good, the Empire is evil, and when there's actually a gray area they have to go back and "fix" the mission to drive this point home.
Like you and others have pointed out, D'Tan does nothing in the FE that a good politician wouldn't. But coming from this game, that's something new. It's a subtlety the writing usually doesn't enjoy. I really hope it continues, because it'll make for far more interesting characters.
I suppose but I've always seen D'Tan just as a more open-minded Romulan. He's still Romulan though, his passion just lies in something else besides "power".
1st Dominion Ayrenn's party
2nd Dominion Summerset/Valenwood Alliance, later roflstomped by Tiber's Anumidium
3rd Dominion 4th Era Dominion we encounter in Skyirm
Comments
Of course, i am drawing upon 2 historical events, the breakup of the Roman Empire, and the American revolution in shaping A'nya views. Of course, she has no real knowledge of that or would she really care. Her being an orphan on a forgotten colony is enough for her not to want the RSE to comeback ever again.
That one is so stupid, he lost a Rock/Paper/Scissors game to a Pony.
— Sabaton, "Great War"
Check out https://unitedfederationofpla.net/s/
Now she's just another psychotic Tal Shiar commander and the choice has no depth whatsoever. Very disappointing IMO.
Whatever. I'm glad people are realizing that there's depth in the Republic, and there's a lot more storytelling potential there than if we were all playing as 2-dimensional Tomalok clones.
I actually disagree that the writing is wrong. Hakeev should have been the posturing buffon we see him as. He willingly subjected himself to Iconians, he willingly killed billions of romulans and remans and scattered his people because of it and he's claiming that it was all in the furtherance of Romulan position in an Iconian regime.
He is a posturing buffon, if he ever thought the Iconians saw him as more than a tool to be used and then discarded. Then he really is the buffoon. The posturing is that he was trying to curry favour with people whom he saw as potential new overlords and posturing a position.
Yeah, see, this is not a new thing. Remember the bit in the Romulan storyline where you get captured and brainwashed and forced to perform Borg implantation experiments on a Republic POW? Or did you conveniently wipe that out of your memory?
— Sabaton, "Great War"
Check out https://unitedfederationofpla.net/s/
Ahem to borrow a few words "this is not a new thing". This mission (the one where you rescue the captain) came before the Romulan Republic storyline mustache twirling mission mindgames. It got retconned but it doesn't change the fact that the RSE captain (pre retcon) wasn't a bad person or some"60's villain" parody that is the tal'shiar in this game.
What we *did* have previously was some particularly hamfisted episodic content focused around Tovan Khev's ex-girlfriend. In which the devs felt it was necessary to drill it into players heads that D'Tan would never do anything morally questionable to gain an advantage over the Empire, and that anything that the Empire accuses them of is a blatent lie.
It's about time we got some Romulans acting as something other than black hats or white hats. It's a shame it came at the expense of the Romulan Military/Tal Shair captain, who went from a sympathetic/grey character to antoher faceless thug.
— Sabaton, "Great War"
Check out https://unitedfederationofpla.net/s/
Hakeev named Commander Ruul as his successor to lead the Tal'Shiar. My shooting Hakeev in the face did not end the Tal'Shiar, unfortunately. I also had to arrest Ruul (although I would have preferred shooting him in the face as well), and even then, the Tal'Shiar did not end, again unfortunately.
Let's also get a few things straight.
Cartoons in the States were traditionally shown on Saturday mornings, not Sunday mornings. Most (all?) of the networks still follow this practice.
References to "60s villain parodies" is also nonsensical. Have you even watched TOS? The "villains" in TOS were not made campy and one-dimensional. There's plenty of moral ambiguity there. If you want the black and white TRIBBLE, Pure As The Driven Snow Maiden Of Virtue Rescued From Dark Mustachioed Villain With No Redeeming Qualities By White Hat Wearing Boy Scout Who's Too Stupid/Ignorant To Be Interesting (by which I mean in part "too stupid/ignorant to realize that the world is not merely black and white), then you've got to go back to the 40s and 50s (especially during the McCarthy era). You might come close in some of the 60s programs like Batman, but even there, the villains were not always one-dimensional, uninteresting bunglers. The return of Dragnet in 1967 (it had originally run from 1951-1959) was one of those last gasp things on the part of the puritans and their ilk to "restore" television to what it had been in the 50s, but it just didn't work, because the audience had become more sophisticated by then. The revived Dragnet went off the air in 1971.
Hakeev was an idiot. How he became the leader of the Tal'Shiar is a mystery, but I would suggest that one of the later Praetors of the Empire put him in that position.
This is not incredible or fantastic. The Roman Empire demonstrates what are arguably even more ridiculous appointments in its history. If memory serves correctly, some Caesar (Nero? Domitian? Commodus? Caligula?) even appointed an animal to a high office.
The Tal'Shiar is a bad thing, mkay? Cryptic isn't responsible for that.
The Tal'Shiar is also not representative of what i means to be Romulan. TOS established that long before there was a Tal'Shiar.
Stop crying over the Tal'Shiar being shown for what they truly are. As for the RSE Commander in the mission, I only played it once before the re-write, so I don't remember her as fondly as some of you seem to, and am not bent out of shape over her being rewritten to fit the new storyline (there's a lot of stuff that needs to be rewritten, as you all know).
Hair splitting over what day of the week one watches their one-dimensional morality plays aside, we aren't talking about campy TOS era Romulans here. The STO Romulans are pretty heavily influenced by the myriad of Romulan appearances post the two in TOS.
I think it's pretty obvious to most that the Romulans (and Klingons) were basically reinvented for TNG-era, ENT's clumsy attempt to reconcile the TNG and TOS Klingons being the only real attempt to fit them together.
Gene's policy for reconcile the TOS Klingons and TNG Klingons was to 'pretend they were always that way all along' (ridged foreheads and all) I prefer a similar approach for Romulans. I think the show runners did as well, considering even in ENT they stuck with the post-TOS envisioning, going so far as to include Remans and Nemesis-era uniforms.
And yes, many of the TOS-era and early TNG episodes could be monumentally heavy handed in how they dealt with morality.
And we aren't crying over Tal Shiar portrayal necessarily. They did some nasty things in DS9, but nothing necessarily more horrible than what the Romulan Military did. The problem is that the RSE is apparently blacklisted from showing any positive traits whatsoever. Heck, even the Dominion is portrayed in a more positive light in STO than the Star Empire.
Tal Shiar may have been bad, but so was the Romulan military, a few TOS portrayals aside. But neither really approached the level of complete evil that the STO Tal Shiar occupy. Even Tomalak had his moments. They felt more like people and less like caricatures, 'bad' or not.
Pre-change the old Romulan commander was a much more subtle portrayal. She wasn't even really guilty of anything that Federation or KDF hadn't done (I'm looking at you Omega rep).
The RSE history has a variety of good and bad Praetors, Emperors, Empresses, Senators, Proconsuls, First Consuls, whatever. Before the Star Empire existed, the first "Ruling Queen of the Two Worlds" was mad. Like the Roman Empire, the RSE has at times been led by individuals who were quite insane, or otherwise "not competent to make decisions." With leaders of such calibre, and with Sela's push to reinvest the noble Houseclans with political authority, is it really so hard to understand that Colonel Hakeev was insane? Evil? No. Insane? Yes. Criminally so. Or afflicted with Tuvan Syndrome. Certainly not competent to be in the position he was in. The same can be argued of Sela and Taris, to a lesser extent (neither of them seems quite so dissociated from reality, although definitely insulated from reality). The RSE as it was left when Hakeev was killed and Sela carried away was an RSE whose government and secret police were headed by those who should not have been entrusted with such authority, and who appointed sycophants, or those most like them (Ruul was basically Hakeev Lite). If anything of the RSE now survives apart from the Tal'Shiar, it will take them some time to cleanse their ranks of those who should not be there. But the cycle of abuse is one from which some never seem to break free. I'm not sure the RSE can break free. It became so corrupt in its very core that I cannot fathom a desire to reform it. I don't think it can be reformed. We have now the opportunity for freedom and self-determination, virtues which actuated our ancestors to leave Vulcan. Why would we, and why should we, discard it in preference for something which has clearly failed to realize those virtues for our peoples?
I agree. There was no real choice anymore. Either be evil and let them go, or being the good guy. Also, considering your faction is at war with them, letting them go is also the "stupid" choice.
Before that it was different. The Romulan were using Borg tech, so what ? Klingons and Fed already do that. Why should we stop them for doing so ? Because we are better than them ? And what about the prime directive ?
In my country, cartoons are on everyday morning.
This has always been my interpretation of D'Tan. He's rejected the overtly evil ways of the Tal Shiar, but he's not above getting his hands dirty if it helps ensure the Romulan Republic has a prominent place in the galaxy.
I know many people saw the dual alliances with the Federation and Klingons as D'Tan somehow giving the Romulan people over to the other factions, but I always thought it could be interpreted differently. By joining forces with both sides of the Federation-Klingon war, D'Tan not only ensured protection from the Tal Shiar, but actually manipulated both sides into providing more help than they may have been inclined to, in order to keep the Republic from moving to once side of the conflict over the other.
The discovery of the Solanae Dyson Sphere in Republic space was a prime opportunity for D'Tan to turn the Republic into a major player in the quadrant, and I'm glad to see that he embraced it.
In canon, Iconia is actually in the Romulan Neutral zone. You can somewhat see this on the Galaxy map (It's smack in the middle of the 'black' space between the blue-fed and green-rom areas) although there is nothing labeled as such. (Sector Z-6)
Romulan Institute
D'Galan - Engineer
This episode is more like how D'Tan and the Republic are, real Romulans: passionate, "human", honourable, devious, calculating, and brazen.
http://en.memory-alpha.org/wiki/The_Enemy_(episode)
I've never understood the "Evil, evil" Motif RSE people are contempt to portray. When Picard visits Romulus to meet Spock, the common people are nearly "human" in their own ways. The lady who owns the cafe even gives them the soup they ordered for free.
D'Tan wasn't acting "evil", he was acting for the benefits of the Republic and this is how our own Earthly "Hoo-Man" international politics goes. We record and we spy for our own interests.
I wish we could vote up.
"The Republic does want to play nice with its neighbors."
I think they want to go back to to having honour and not just full on deception with no honor. Even Klingons run a spy network.
#LegalizeAwoo
A normie goes "Oh, what's this?"
An otaku goes "UwU, what's this?"
A furry goes "OwO, what's this?"
A werewolf goes "Awoo, what's this?"
"It's nothing personal, I just don't feel like I've gotten to know a person until I've sniffed their crotch."
"We said 'no' to Mr. Curiosity. We're not home. Curiosity is not welcome, it is not to be invited in. Curiosity...is bad. It gets you in trouble, it gets you killed, and more importantly...it makes you poor!"
As for 'The enemy' While it was heartwarming to see geordi reach a form of understanding with the Romulan, are people forgetting that this same Romulan mentioned that Romulans born with birth defects are killed, that Romulans planned to commit total genocide on the human species, or that the other Romulan died rather than accept a transfusion from a Klingon? Such items paint a much harsher culture, much more distrustful, even hateful, of the Klingons and Federation than the Rosy picture that gets painted of the 'common Romulan' in the Republic storyline. They are a far cry from the loonies in STO's Tal Shiar, but they are certainly on the 'dark grey' end of things compared to the Federation on whole. IMO It says a lot about the previous status of the Romulan storyline that D'Tan acting the slightest bit dishonest is such a big deal.
Only partially. General case yes, specifics no.
For a start D'Tan has actually timed his breakaway movement properly - a weakened RSE was all that the Republic faced at the start, whereas Ulfric launched his Rebellion straight into one moderately serious enemy who really should be an ally, (the Empire) and one very serious enemy who is waiting for the right moment to strike. (the 4th Aldmeri Dominion)
And D'Tan doesn't have a potential god/goddess to assist him if he plays his cards right, unlike Ulfric, who does. (subject to player choices)
I don't see D'Tan's actions as in any way "dishonest." I don't see anything he did in this episode as ethically questionable, let alone worthy of being regarded as "black" or "dark grey." As Chief of New Romulan Military Intelligence, I'm the New Romulan spymistress, of course, so recording things is not an act which I would view in such a manner, but even so, this was done openly, in full view of all the delegates. Having a record of what transpired is the opposite of dishonest, because it guarantees that all parties will be kept honest (faithful to the accord) by virtue of the record itself. When one attends such an event, one should expect to be recorded.
D'Tan acted in the interests of the Republic. He serves our people, unlike the majority of the Emperors, Praetors, and Empresses of the Star Empire. He does this according to his understanding of what is good for our people, and he hears the counsel of other persons in the government of the Republic, including every member of New Romulan Star Command (such as myself) and the Continuing Committee (such as myself). D'Tan has never acted except in the interests of the Republic. While he may not always make the right decisions, he does what he truly believes to be best for our people. Sometimes that means pushing against the Federation and/or the Klingon Empire (Orion Syndicate), jockeying for position, stating our territorial claims, praising our past efforts, reminding our allies that we are indeed still one of the Big Three.
D'Tan has always been like this; some of you just never gave him the chance to display more than what your first impression of him was.
Sorry, but where exactly are you getting this?
Shinzon, Picards Evil Clone, DID plan to commit total genocide, but the Romulan military wanted no such thing and tried to stop Shinzon to avoid being tainted by his crimes.
Or perhaps your thinking about JJ trek, where a group of romulans who have clearly gone insane with grief are willing to take to the most extreme measures to exact vengeance and in their own way believing themselves to prevent the destruction of their homeworld and the decimation of their species.
Thing is, we don't view them as one dimensional. That's just how the game writes both sides pretty much all the time. The Republic is good, the Empire is evil, and when there's actually a gray area they have to go back and "fix" the mission to drive this point home.
Like you and others have pointed out, D'Tan does nothing in the FE that a good politician wouldn't. But coming from this game, that's something new. It's a subtlety the writing usually doesn't enjoy. I really hope it continues, because it'll make for far more interesting characters.
No thats Cryptic's depiction of the Tal Shiar/RSE remnant atm.
You may disagree but you need to state something substantiating the statement to make it more than opinion.
Sela is clearly multifaceted and did everything in her power to gain control and become a ruler. You may object to the means and how she governs but guess what, so did much of those who joined into the Romulan Republic.
We learn through the episodes not all the Tal'Shiar are fully aware or complicit of their superior's actions (Charva). (Grey)
Hakeev's main resentment comes from Shinzon's rebellion and the freedom of the Remans. Keep in mind this did destabilize the RSE prior to even the Hobus supernova. There was a vacuum of power that was bound to be exploited by various existing factions within the RSE and according to the Libraries this did indeed happen.
Hakeev and Sela see themselves as the rightful rulers of all Romulans, something that is much disagreed by many Romulan factions, especially prior to Sela's declaration. Many colony planets were fighting to be the new capital and central government (again... if you read the libraries...). Sela entered a fractured people who were already infighting and all it did was create some stability but not enough. Her Crown rested in her military might, something D'Tan knew and worked to create his own Militia to create the Romulan Republic more inline with TRADTIONAL Romulan government as Shinzon (An Alien and "Reman" did disolve...) (Senate etc).
Hakeev sees/saw the Iconians as superior or surmised couldn't be stopped and allied with them so as to "save" the Romulan people even at the great expense of "traitors" and innocent civilian's lives. It is never clear how much Sela was aware of all of this and Taris clearly disagreed with everything.
So much for one-dimensional...
I suppose but I've always seen D'Tan just as a more open-minded Romulan. He's still Romulan though, his passion just lies in something else besides "power".
1st Dominion Ayrenn's party
2nd Dominion Summerset/Valenwood Alliance, later roflstomped by Tiber's Anumidium
3rd Dominion 4th Era Dominion we encounter in Skyirm