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Why free to play is very good!

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  • centersolacecentersolace Member Posts: 11,178 Arc User
    edited April 2014
    Free to Play is the best model for everyone. Anyone who disagrees is using it incorrectly.
  • hyefatherhyefather Member Posts: 1,286 Arc User
    edited April 2014
    In as much as no one could take this one seriously either.

    F2P is neither good or bad; there are good F2P models and bad ones. With the exception of lockboxes, I think Cryptic/PWE have a very good model for monetization. The problem for me is that those lockboxes are so bad that it overshadows the rest of the model.

    I agree with this post. If Cryptic wanted to improve the reputation of lockboxes they could offer the ship in them by another means other than buying a Key and trying to win one. They could offer them through content such as a raid reward (simular to wow). I didnt say anything about it being easy either make it elite but still offer another alternative to winning lockbox ships. It would take the sting out of spending money on keys. That is of course if you could get cryptic to actually build such a raid. After clearing out trash there could be a boss at the end of each level that droped currency simular to Lobi but it was used for Lockbox ships. Each boss could drop like 10 raid currency and the Lockbox ships could be anywheres between 800-1000, raid currency.
  • centersolacecentersolace Member Posts: 11,178 Arc User
    edited April 2014
    Cryptic was owned by Atari when it was sold to PWE.


    Atari had been looting Cryptic's profits from STO to pay it's debts which were in the tens of millions so Atari could stay in business.


    Atari bought Cryptic because they thought STO would be a cash cow on the scale of WoW.


    If PWE hadn't bought Cryptic when it did STO would be nothing more than a memory today.

    Yup. Atari bought Cryptic with the hope it would make them tons of cash. PWE bought Cryptic to have a stronger foothold in the western market. Shows what a difference in priorities can do. :cool:
  • centersolacecentersolace Member Posts: 11,178 Arc User
    edited April 2014
    hyefather wrote: »
    I agree with this post. If Cryptic wanted to improve the reputation of lockboxes they could offer the ship in them by another means other than buying a Key and trying to win one. They could offer them through content such as a raid reward (simular to wow). I didnt say anything about it being easy either make it elite but still offer another alternative to winning lockbox ships. It would take the sting out of spending money on keys. That is of course if you could get cryptic to actually build such a raid. After clearing out trash there could be a boss at the end of each level that droped currency simular to Lobi but it was used for Lockbox ships. Each boss could drop like 10 raid currency and the Lockbox ships could be anywheres between 800-1000, raid currency.

    That's not a horrible idea really. I could see that working for some boxes.
  • donrahdonrah Member Posts: 348
    edited April 2014
    The problem with the STO version of the F2P model is that spending money to bypass the grind leaves you with nothing to do once you've bought every carrot they dangle in front of you.

    To put it bluntly, without the phat lewts, this game has no substance except for the unfinished PvP, which also demands that you grind or buy the best gear so you can keep up with the power creep.

    Face it, this game is nothing without the Skinner box.

    Free to play, as a model, can be a very good thing for players with little or no money. However, it can also be an exploitative nightmare if it's implemented with profit being the only priority. The main thrust of F2P is to increase the number of players logging into the game. The free portion is only part of the equation. It's also necessary give the player a reason to keep coming back without making them feel like they are being used. The game also needs to be more than just a grind. Player retention would be higher if the game wasn't centered on the acquisition of items and grinding/buying them to stay competitive. Competitive gaming should be about individual skill, not how rich a veteran is compared to the destitute newbie. STO needs a massive overhaul and adjust its model.
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  • hyefatherhyefather Member Posts: 1,286 Arc User
    edited April 2014
    That's not a horrible idea really. I could see that working for some boxes.

    What i was thinking was, ships that are recent would cost 800 raid currency ( elachi,Hirogen,voth not voth dreadnought) and older ships after a six month period or would cost 1000 or 1200. such as the galor or D'kora. Keep the bug and voth dreadnought the way they are. Through the sale of Romulan duty officer packs. Still the ability to get some of the lockbox ships would make ppl happy. But personally the idea of a raid with bosses no matter what they dropped would make me the happyies man alive.
  • markhawkmanmarkhawkman Member Posts: 35,236 Arc User
    edited April 2014
    hyefather wrote: »
    What i was thinking was, ships that are recent would cost 800 raid currency ( elachi,Hirogen,voth not voth dreadnought) and older ships after a six month period or would cost 1000 or 1200. such as the galor or D'kora. Keep the bug and voth dreadnought the way they are. Through the sale of Romulan duty officer packs. Still the ability to get some of the lockbox ships would make ppl happy. But personally the idea of a raid with bosses no matter what they dropped would make me the happyies man alive.
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  • antoniosalieriantoniosalieri Member Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited April 2014
    Yup. Atari bought Cryptic with the hope it would make them tons of cash. PWE bought Cryptic to have a stronger foothold in the western market. Shows what a difference in priorities can do. :cool:

    That was part of it... not the only or main reason as I see it though.

    They picked up 2 major IPs something they never had before which they could attempt to sell at home.

    Yes trek... but more important. Cryptic was already well into development and had a deal locked down with WOC with Never Winter before PWE picked them up. I suspect had they not had Neverwinter in the pipe PWE wouldn't have been interested in Cryptic at all. Just look over there investor reports for the last couple years... When Cryptic is mentioned it is in regards to NW and its launch in China, that are identified as revenue growth. Having an actual D&D licence to sell at home I think excited them much more then the trek IP.
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  • purplegamerpurplegamer Member Posts: 1,015 Arc User
    edited April 2014
    johngazman wrote: »
    Emphasis on "should". Not "is".

    I didn't see you correct the other argument; money is not the sole purpose of many businesses, therefore a declarative statement like "The purpose of business to make money" is not true.
  • johngazmanjohngazman Member Posts: 2,826 Arc User
    edited April 2014
    I didn't see you correct the other argument; money is not the sole purpose of many businesses, therefore a declarative statement like "The purpose of business to make money" is not true.

    Again, my point was you were talking about how things "should" be rather than how things "are". In an ideal world, a Business should care first and foremost that it's creating. But this isn't an ideal world, and nine times out of ten, what the business actually cares about is making money. And on a fundamental level, they should. If a business doesn't care about it's profit margin, it's not a very good business.
    Modern business has forgotten this, and it's why things get more expensive yet poorer in quality. It's been affecting the game industry for years now too (the emphasis has been on massive PR and marketing campaigns), though the horizon looks a bit more optimistic thanks to competition from indie development.

    Modern business hasn't forgotten. Modern business understands that people will pay money for some things, regardless of quality or innovation. Hence, the mentality of "why spend X much on development when we can do it for much less, and it will still sell, so we'll make a larger profit in the long run" is so prevalent.

    As with the above, I don't necessarily like the way modern businesses conduct themselves, but i'm also well aware that moaning about it isn't going to change anything.
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  • baudlbaudl Member Posts: 4,060 Arc User
    edited April 2014
    You could easily put your response to a thread into the thread. Thats how forums work you know?
    If there isn't a rule against this there definitely SHOULD be one.



    Well there is a lot of evidence to support that.
    Most important of all in common sense, something lot of F2P fans lack by nature.

    In a subscription based game you pay for playing the game. Means the devs get money for letting you play the game. That means money can GO INTO the game = content.

    In f2p Content is only showcase, the money is in the extra store. That means that is primary focus of development and content is only secondary. It being worst is the logical conclusion. Because if resources are limited... and they always are.... the priority is, in case of STO: C-Store ships and lockbox content. No bug fix, no mission, no content is touched before that isn't done.



    That being an advantage is... lets just say against nature itself.
    I don't get the modern way of thinking where people demand quality work on the one hand, but everything for free on the other hand.
    I find it spiteful.

    the evidence you speak of is your opinion...
    and what you call common sense i'd categorise as imagination...you'd wish it would be like you point it out, but it ain't so.
    there is now more money available for developement of CONTENT than there was before or would be under the subscription model...that is a fact that was stated many times in interviews with devs on priority one and other podcasts.
    prime example for it is the voiceovers of Dorn, Russ, Denise Crosby. I think it was al rivera who said that without the transition to f2p and the increased profit from it, they would have never dreamed of casting those actors.

    there was no balancing, no bugfix, 1 year without content during subscription + new ships were c-store (real money) ONLY...atleast now i can actually earn a ship (actually any ship) by playing the game.

    your logic is flawed beyond reasoning...atleast some other people were capable to bring some semi valid points to this discussion


    If your "common sense" example was WOW, you are even more delusional than i thought, since WOW had 11 million people subscribe to the game a few years back...and holds steady at 7 million or so. STO could only hope for a few hundret thousand of people subscribing and that only pays for bug fixing and maybe a single feature episode per month.
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  • revandarklighterrevandarklighter Member Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited April 2014
    baudl wrote: »
    the evidence you speak of is your opinion...
    and what you call common sense i'd categorise as imagination...you'd wish it would be like you point it out, but it ain't so.
    there is now more money available for developement of CONTENT than there was before or would be under the subscription model...that is a fact that was stated many times in interviews with devs on priority one and other podcasts.
    prime example for it is the voiceovers of Dorn, Russ, Denise Crosby. I think it was al rivera who said that without the transition to f2p and the increased profit from it, they would have never dreamed of casting those actors.

    there was no balancing, no bugfix, 1 year without content during subscription + new ships were c-store (real money) ONLY...atleast now i can actually earn a ship (actually any ship) by playing the game.

    your logic is flawed beyond reasoning...atleast some other people were capable to bring some semi valid points to this discussion


    If your "common sense" example was WOW, you are even more delusional than i thought, since WOW had 11 million people subscribe to the game a few years back...and holds steady at 7 million or so. STO could only hope for a few hundret thousand of people subscribing and that only pays for bug fixing and maybe a single feature episode per month.

    1. You should look up the word "opinion" in a dictionary.
    A description of a process is not an opinion.

    2. I said that was the most obvious, not the only evidence.
    Since the actual evidence is hard to present in a forum. You only see STO and build your view on f2p based on that. And while is a perfect example for whats wrong with that model, look at... every other mmo.

    F2P BUILD MMOs are TRIBBLE. All of them. PWEs products outside the cryptic line are perfect examples for that fact.
    Every current F2P game that shows any hint of quality are originally subscription based games. ***, STO itself, Lord of the Rings online to name only a few.
    Even Neverwinter was build as a subscription based game, that was only changed late in the development.
    And all those (beside neverwinter obviously) have a drastic decrease in content quality since f2p. But you'd to play them and have to have played them before. But simply a generally known fact.
  • talonxvtalonxv Member Posts: 4,257 Arc User
    edited April 2014
    1. You should look up the word "opinion" in a dictionary.
    A description of a process is not an opinion.

    2. I said that was the most obvious, not the only evidence.
    Since the actual evidence is hard to present in a forum. You only see STO and build your view on f2p based on that. And while is a perfect example for whats wrong with that model, look at... every other mmo.

    F2P BUILD MMOs are TRIBBLE. All of them. PWEs products outside the cryptic line are perfect examples for that fact.
    Every current F2P game that shows any hint of quality are originally subscription based games. ***, STO itself, Lord of the Rings online to name only a few.
    Even Neverwinter was build as a subscription based game, that was only changed late in the development.
    And all those (beside neverwinter obviously) have a drastic decrease in content quality since f2p. But you'd to play them and have to have played them before. But simply a generally known fact.

    Revan here's the thing. For this game and a few others like SWtOR, had they not gone free to play, probably wouldn't be here because they were bleeding subscriptions like it was going out of style.

    Hell the developers of SWtOR said the only thing that saved it was going F2p. I can bet you your bottom dollar, same with STO. Had they not gone F2p, probably wouldn't be here. Or if they were, probably with enough money when it was all said and done to play their people on staff and keep the servers running.

    From what I recall, STO before going f2p was in the process of showing negative returns.
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  • baudlbaudl Member Posts: 4,060 Arc User
    edited April 2014
    1. You should look up the word "opinion" in a dictionary.
    A description of a process is not an opinion.

    2. I said that was the most obvious, not the only evidence.
    Since the actual evidence is hard to present in a forum. You only see STO and build your view on f2p based on that. And while is a perfect example for whats wrong with that model, look at... every other mmo.

    F2P BUILD MMOs are TRIBBLE. All of them. PWEs products outside the cryptic line are perfect examples for that fact.
    Every current F2P game that shows any hint of quality are originally subscription based games. ***, STO itself, Lord of the Rings online to name only a few.
    Even Neverwinter was build as a subscription based game, that was only changed late in the development.
    And all those (beside neverwinter obviously) have a drastic decrease in content quality since f2p. But you'd to play them and have to have played them before. But simply a generally known fact.

    what a load of TRIBBLE...extensive voiceovers, improved animations, redesigned tutorials, etc ...all evidence of "decreased content quality"

    yes i see you are an expert...thx for your input, even if it was total bull****


    f2p build MMOs are TRIBBLE...yeah thats pobably why they completely replace subscription models, because they are TRIBBLE...lol
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  • therealmttherealmt Member Posts: 428 Arc User
    edited April 2014
    f2p = ****. simple as that. Its only good for those who didnt want to 'pay for subscription back then. This is what it gave us. Chinese p2w grind model.

    p2w bs will eventually be a big cancer in online gaming, and will eventually be the downfall of MMOs once people see the drawbacks

    sure f2p can be good, but not with the model in this case STO is implemented.
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  • edgecrysgeredgecrysger Member Posts: 2,740 Arc User
    edited April 2014
    What kind of bull**** number is this? You make it sound like you can't make it through 5 missions without crashing, or getting stuck in it.

    ERMMMM.. do i need to really answer that?? :mad:, because sometimes that is how i feel playing the game. So its good that you bring that up. Not crashing, but finding one bug after another.

    This night i was fightin in Defera space against the Breen. For start, the damn impulse bug, i cant use full impulse and deactivate it before i reach my target not if i need to smash 2 or 3 times the impulse key again. Second, the weapons will not fire for a reason i dont understand. Third i use skills, the cooldown goes down but the weapon doesnt fire. Fourth, i fire a torpedo, and it happens that instead of going direct to my target it makes a weird movement and goes to the opposite direction :confused:

    AND I COULD GO ON. All of that in 10 minutes and i didnt tell you what happened after that...
  • markhawkmanmarkhawkman Member Posts: 35,236 Arc User
    edited April 2014
    therealmt wrote: »
    f2p = ****. simple as that. Its only good for those who didnt want to 'pay for subscription back then. This is what it gave us. Chinese p2w grind model.

    p2w bs will eventually be a big cancer in online gaming, and will eventually be the downfall of MMOs once people see the drawbacks

    sure f2p can be good, but not with the model in this case STO is implemented.
    Blizzard disagrees. Blizzard thinks that it's the best thing to ever happen to MMOs..... Blizzard also thinks that P2W isn't Chinese. :P
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  • edgecrysgeredgecrysger Member Posts: 2,740 Arc User
    edited April 2014
    Blizzard disagrees. Blizzard thinks that it's the best thing to ever happen to MMOs..... Blizzard also thinks that P2W isn't Chinese. :P

    Not in mmorpgs, but Blizzard is one of the best videogame companies in the world, and if you dont think so, you dont have a clue. And you probably never played more than 1 game from em. And if you did, you obviously dont have any idea what means quality in a videogame. There is a reason they only manage 4 or 5 games, but each one atesorates quality and more stability than almost any other game ive ever seen. AGain, if you dont think so, then you must be an undine!.
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  • markhawkmanmarkhawkman Member Posts: 35,236 Arc User
    edited April 2014
    Not in mmorpgs, but Blizzard is one of the best videogame companies in the world, and if you dont think so, you dont have a clue. And you probably never played more than 1 game from em. And if you did, you obviously dont have any idea what means quality in a videogame. There is a reason they only manage 4 or 5 games, but each one atesorates quality and more stability than almost any other game ive ever seen. AGain, if you dont think so, then you must be an undine!.
    Like I said in the other thread... I used to mod Diablo 2. I KNOW how shoddy Blizzard's work can be. Don't try to tell me they're the "best ever"... This is the same company that published a PAID expansion where one of the new features was so horribly glitched it was only borderline usable. Not a patch... an actual PAID expansion. Oh and this is the same game where you could run into bosses that were impossible to kill. Not just difficult to kill, completely immune to damage.
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  • gofasternowgofasternow Member Posts: 1,390 Arc User
    edited April 2014
    capnkirk4 wrote: »
    Which would have been sweet. The license would have been given to someone else, and we would have a game set in the J.J. verse with out all the ridiculous Voyager claptrap that infests this game, and sucks away any truly Trek feel, like a voracious, parasitic outbreak.

    My reaction to that.

    I love how everyone says that if X lost Y license, that means company Z will get it. No, it doesn't work that way at all. Especially with a niche like Star Trek. If Cryptic lost the license, CBS would just shrug their shoulders and let the Prime-verse fade away to only exist as novels and brief comic appearances over in IDW.
  • edgecrysgeredgecrysger Member Posts: 2,740 Arc User
    edited April 2014
    Like I said in the other thread... I used to mod Diablo 2. I KNOW how shoddy Blizzard's work can be. Don't try to tell me they're the "best ever"... This is the same company that published a PAID expansion where one of the new features was so horribly glitched it was only borderline usable. Not a patch... an actual PAID expansion. Oh and this is the same game where you could run into bosses that were impossible to kill. Not just difficult to kill, completely immune to damage.

    Diablo 2 is the only exception, and as i said they fixed it after the expansion. And of course Blizzard games had its fault, as any other game in the story, but still, you cant even compare Blizzard games with in terms of quality with any other company. But there is no point, since you seem to really hate Blizzard for a really alien reason. Even if ALL the companies kill when it comes about money, and Blizzard is not an exception, i can accept that if the game is decent enough and i see they really put work in everything they did. I dont see that in STO and a lot of games. Not by far. And im tired of playing videogames, seriously lol. Well, to be honest, i almost only play STO since 8 months ago :D (i always loved star trek and i never played a star trek game since starfleet command 2....... ).
  • centersolacecentersolace Member Posts: 11,178 Arc User
    edited April 2014
    Blizzard is one of the best videogame companies in the world.

    Okay, now I know you are full of it.
  • edgecrysgeredgecrysger Member Posts: 2,740 Arc User
    edited April 2014

    And here comes the omni present guy. Lol. You are the one who always appear to corroborate the stupid commentary of the other.
  • centersolacecentersolace Member Posts: 11,178 Arc User
    edited April 2014
    And here comes the omni present guy. Lol. You are the one who always appear to corroborate the stupid commentary of the other.

    It is my sworn duty to rid the world of stupidity. I will not succeed. But it's worth a try! :D
  • centersolacecentersolace Member Posts: 11,178 Arc User
    edited April 2014
    Omnipresent Guy. I like it. :P
  • bareelbareel Member Posts: 3 Arc User
    edited April 2014
    What does F2P mean? It means if they cannot generate growth in metrics or somehow generate revenue the content for purchase the content will not be created.

    Why hasn't crafting been revamped? Because it does not fit either of those.

    Why aren't any new 5 episode FEs being created? Because it cannot generate enough revenue from related purchases to justify.

    Why is every monster of the week found in a lockbox? Because it justifies the development cost of said monster.

    Would STO's F2P Model work without lockboxes? Do you consider lockboxes to be..predatory? Will regulatory agencies ever consider them predatory?

    Why aren't new doffs being created and the entire system on the 'revamp' table? Because the packs don't sell very well.

    Why does content only see improvement if combined with a 're-release'? Should be obvious by now...

    What does Sub based mean? It means if they cannot keep you in the game (grind) then the content will not be created. F2P has the same problem though other than they at times offer a method to bypass part of the grind.
  • markhawkmanmarkhawkman Member Posts: 35,236 Arc User
    edited April 2014
    Diablo 2 is the only exception, and as i said they fixed it after the expansion.
    Actually.... Most of the really annoying glitches were introduced by the expansion. As for quality.... Blizzard's quality of product is related to the size of their development budget. Actually... it's not directly related. Especially considering just how utterly moronic some of the bugs in Diablo 2 were. Since you obviously don't remember.... I'll give you a few examples, just a few....

    The first version of runewords stopped working if the item was traded to another player... permanently.

    Then there was one bug in a later patch that made somethings that aren't supposed to be able to damage you dangerous.... in the case of that erupting thing that Mephisto spawns when he dies it was particularly bad since you can't target it to attack it and kill it.

    Oh and I don't hate Blizzard. The difference is that I don't view them with rose colored glasses. I was a Diablo 2 modder for a few years because I like the game. However my time as a modder taught me many things about the game and Blizzard's skill at coding.... Oh and their atrocious balance of PvP....
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  • centersolacecentersolace Member Posts: 11,178 Arc User
    edited April 2014
    So Diabalo III doesn't count? :rolleyes:
  • farmallmfarmallm Member Posts: 4,630 Arc User
    edited April 2014
    If it wasn't for Free to Play, I wouldn't be on here at all. I came from a subscription game, and I had enough of it. My life changed as things changed. And took my focus away from gaming. Where before I would log on like 8+ hours per week easy. Now I'm lucky to get 4 hours per week. And at times I might not log on for a week or more. So I can't justify paying a Sub each month if I don't feel like I will get my $'s worth. To me this is the best set up for a game.

    However I'm not fully playing for free either. I spent a good bit in the C-store for all kinds of stuff. And I'm not done yet. As they keep coming out with lock boxes and new items. So either I pay for it, or I let someone else do it in exchange for items I have.
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