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Why free to play is very good!

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  • groomofweirdgroomofweird Member Posts: 1,045 Arc User
    edited April 2014
    With all due respect, you do not represent me, nor have I ever given you permission to speak on my behalf.

    You only speak for yourself.

    Well in this instance I was referring to those whose situation would be simillar to my own in terms of lifestyle and gaming, granted I can't speak for everyone (and my intention wasn't to try).
    And yes I was expressing a personal opinion, but one that I felt was sufficiently weighted by the number of players ingame I have come across that share simillar reasons for playing. Hell no this isn't the only reason people play this game. I was merely stating that I know there are many other players out there who play this game for the reasons I previously stated and probably wouldn't were it sub only.
    Nimoysig1_zpsr79joxz3.jpg
    "If this will be our end, then I will have them make SUCH an end as to be worthy of rememberance! Out of torpedos you say?! Find me the ferengi!".
  • centersolacecentersolace Member Posts: 11,178 Arc User
    edited April 2014
    Well in this instance I was referring to those whose situation would be simillar to my own in terms of lifestyle and gaming, granted I can't speak for everyone (and my intention wasn't to try).
    And yes I was expressing a personal opinion, but one that I felt was sufficiently weighted by the number of players ingame I have come across that share simillar reasons for playing. Hell no this isn't the only reason people play this game. I was merely stating that I know there are many other players out there who play this game for the reasons I previously stated and probably wouldn't were it sub only.

    I agreed with you. :/
  • groomofweirdgroomofweird Member Posts: 1,045 Arc User
    edited April 2014
    I agreed with you. :/

    Yes sir, and thankyou :)
    I just felt the urge to make my reposte to the guy who thought I was attempting to speak for him was all.

    Edit: I'm in the uk and only get on the forums on my crapberry after a days gaming so its usually in the late evenings I post.
    Nimoysig1_zpsr79joxz3.jpg
    "If this will be our end, then I will have them make SUCH an end as to be worthy of rememberance! Out of torpedos you say?! Find me the ferengi!".
  • varnoukhvarnoukh Member Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited April 2014
    Why free to play is very bad!

    You get a broken product and terrible service. Even if you happen to have spent more than $300 on the "free" to play game.

    In subscription MMOs, on those extremely rare occasions when any of my characters became bugged, they were never bugged for very long. Developers looked into the problem and fixed it.

    In STO my characters have been bugged since August last year, my main one worst of all.

    It has reached the point where I've lodged a complaint with bbb.org (response from PWE due tomorrow) and if that fails then a Federal Trade Commission complaint will be next.
  • daan2006daan2006 Member Posts: 5,346 Arc User
    edited April 2014
    varnoukh wrote: »
    Why free to play is very bad!It has reached the point where I've lodged a complaint with bbb.org (response from PWE due tomorrow) and if that fails then a Federal Trade Commission complaint will be next.

    that will do nothing trust me lots of ppl being doing that with cryptic for 3 years now and yet they are still around!!!! dont take me wrong im on your side
    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
    swimwear off risa not fixed
    system Lord Baal is dead
    macronius wrote: »
    This! Their ability to outdo their own failures is quite impressive. If only this power could be harnessed for good.
  • thecosmic1thecosmic1 Member Posts: 9,365 Arc User
    edited April 2014
    varnoukh wrote: »
    It has reached the point where I've lodged a complaint with bbb.org (response from PWE due tomorrow) and if that fails then a Federal Trade Commission complaint will be next.
    The BBB is a toothless organization that has not had any power in business since the late 1970s. The rating system used at the BBB is based entirely on how much an organization is willing to pay the BBB for the rating. An example of this is the Hamas terrorist organization that the BBB gave an A- rating to a few years ago. No company needs to respond to the BBB's requests.

    Likewise your FTC complaint will also go nowhere. Cryptic can simply wave the EULA and ToS and the FTC knows this.

    I also have to wonder if you filed Support tickets about the issues or simply posted to the forum?
    STO is about my Liberated Borg Federation Captain with his Breen 1st Officer, Jem'Hadar Tactical Officer, Liberated Borg Engineering Officer, Android Ops Officer, Photonic Science Officer, Gorn Science Officer, and Reman Medical Officer jumping into their Jem'Hadar Carrier and flying off to do missions for the new Romulan Empire. But for some players allowing a T5 Connie to be used breaks the canon in the game.
  • centersolacecentersolace Member Posts: 11,178 Arc User
    edited April 2014
    The Better Business Bureau? Hehehehehehe. :D
  • baudlbaudl Member Posts: 4,060 Arc User
    edited April 2014
    varnoukh wrote: »
    Why free to play is very bad!

    You get a broken product and terrible service. Even if you happen to have spent more than $300 on the "free" to play game.

    In subscription MMOs, on those extremely rare occasions when any of my characters became bugged, they were never bugged for very long. Developers looked into the problem and fixed it.

    In STO my characters have been bugged since August last year, my main one worst of all.

    It has reached the point where I've lodged a complaint with bbb.org (response from PWE due tomorrow) and if that fails then a Federal Trade Commission complaint will be next.

    that is bad, no doubt, but it is not representative for 99,9% of the playerbase...srsly!

    i too have 1 character out of 7 that had MAJOR issues with costume options and such...but, it is not a MAJOR issue for the MAJORITY of players.
    i got huge headaces when season 9 hit and that same character wasn't able to add any trait to the new revamped trait system...
    but obviously the staff is working hard on those "Immidiate" issues...and they get resolved..."less" gamebraking, yet annoying issues get ignored....but that is the case with ANY game company...this is a case of priorities and resources!
    Go pro or go home
  • varnoukhvarnoukh Member Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited April 2014
    daan2006 wrote: »
    that will do nothing trust me lots of ppl being doing that with cryptic for 3 years now and yet they are still around!!!! dont take me wrong im on your side

    I don't want them shut down. Apart from some of the hideous f2p grinds they've plastered onto the game I rather enjoy STO. Or I did before my characters became bugged and the arc client started looming.

    I want them to meet the basic legal requirement of providing the service they've charged me for. Particularly as a paying customer I have a legal right to the product which I've effectively been partially denied for far, far, far too long. So have many other STO players as it seems the developers basically ignore bugs like this.

    And it will do something. bbb.org has no legal authority but they attempt to mediate complaints like this. If you look at their site you can see other PWE players have successfully resolved problems like this through them.

    But if bbb.org can't get this fixed then the FTC has teeth. PWE does not want to be the subject of an investigation. Quite apart from habitually failing to fix bugs like this thereby TRIBBLE over customers, any scrutiny from the FTC could bring the arc client to their attention. The FTC has a history of prosecuting complaints against companies whose software eg. tries to collect information it has no business trying to collect.
  • thecosmic1thecosmic1 Member Posts: 9,365 Arc User
    edited April 2014
    varnoukh wrote: »
    But if bbb.org can't get this fixed then the FTC has teeth. PWE does not want to be the subject of an investigation. Quite apart from habitually failing to fix bugs like this thereby TRIBBLE over customers, any scrutiny from the FTC could bring the arc client to their attention. The FTC has a history of prosecuting complaints against companies whose software eg. tries to collect information it has no business trying to collect.
    Please just file your complaint. Watching this go nowhere will be hilarious. :)

    Edit: I do want to ask again, did you file a Support ticket? I just searched all 300 of your posts and not a single one comes up with Support stating you filed any tickets about your problem.
    STO is about my Liberated Borg Federation Captain with his Breen 1st Officer, Jem'Hadar Tactical Officer, Liberated Borg Engineering Officer, Android Ops Officer, Photonic Science Officer, Gorn Science Officer, and Reman Medical Officer jumping into their Jem'Hadar Carrier and flying off to do missions for the new Romulan Empire. But for some players allowing a T5 Connie to be used breaks the canon in the game.
  • varnoukhvarnoukh Member Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited April 2014
    thecosmic1 wrote: »
    The BBB is a toothless organization that has not had any power in business since the late 1970s. The rating system used at the BBB is based entirely on how much an organization is willing to pay the BBB for the rating. An example of this is the Hamas terrorist organization that the BBB gave an A- rating to a few years ago. No company needs to respond to the BBB's requests.

    Likewise your FTC complaint will also go nowhere. Cryptic can simply wave the EULA and ToS and the FTC knows this.

    I also have to wonder if you filed Support tickets about the issues or simply posted to the forum?

    Yes I know the bbb is toothless, but it's a less aggressive first step in the external complaint department.

    The FTC is not toothless and the EULA doesn't in the slightest absolve PWE from their legal responsibilities as a service provider. Even when EULA's contain specific clauses claiming to absolve them from such responsibilities, courts often rule those EULA's as invalid.

    And to spare you further wondering, yes I lodged bug reports. After several months of being bugged I lodged a support ticket. That was an interesting exercise. They made me jump through hoops to prove it was a bug (submitting screenshots etc.) then told me it was a technical problem and they couldn't do anything about it. As as has been reported by others, they then told me not to lodge support tickets about problems like this in the future.
  • thecosmic1thecosmic1 Member Posts: 9,365 Arc User
    edited April 2014
    varnoukh wrote: »
    And to spare you further wondering, yes I lodged bug reports. After several months of being bugged I lodged a support ticket. That was an interesting exercise. They made me jump through hoops to prove it was a bug (submitting screenshots etc.) then told me it was a technical problem and they couldn't do anything about it. As as has been reported by others, they then told me not to lodge support tickets about problems like this in the future.
    It seems to me you were given an answer. Not every bug if fixable. You just do not like that answer. I am sure Cryptic will have copies of their reply to you when the FTC comes calling, in about 3-4 years. :)
    STO is about my Liberated Borg Federation Captain with his Breen 1st Officer, Jem'Hadar Tactical Officer, Liberated Borg Engineering Officer, Android Ops Officer, Photonic Science Officer, Gorn Science Officer, and Reman Medical Officer jumping into their Jem'Hadar Carrier and flying off to do missions for the new Romulan Empire. But for some players allowing a T5 Connie to be used breaks the canon in the game.
  • varnoukhvarnoukh Member Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited April 2014
    thecosmic1 wrote: »
    Please just file your complaint. Watching this go nowhere will be hilarious. :)

    Edit: I do want to ask again, did you file a Support ticket? I just searched all 300 of your posts and not a single one comes up with Support stating you filed any tickets about your problem.

    Looks like you posted this while I was replying to your earlier post.

    You searched all 300 of my posts and not a single one mentions having filed tickets? Lies.

    http://sto-forum.perfectworld.com/showpost.php?p=13747441&postcount=7

    http://sto-forum.perfectworld.com/showpost.php?p=16340781&postcount=19
  • thecosmic1thecosmic1 Member Posts: 9,365 Arc User
    edited April 2014
    varnoukh wrote: »
    Looks like you posted this while I was replying to your earlier post.

    You searched all 300 of my posts and not a single one mentions having filed tickets? Lies.

    http://sto-forum.perfectworld.com/showpost.php?p=13747441&postcount=7

    http://sto-forum.perfectworld.com/showpost.php?p=16340781&postcount=19
    You do understand that the GMs are not Support, right? GM's do not and cannot fix bugs. So I will ask again, did you file any "Support" tickets or only GM tickets? I found no mention of you using the word Support in any posts about filing tickets.
    STO is about my Liberated Borg Federation Captain with his Breen 1st Officer, Jem'Hadar Tactical Officer, Liberated Borg Engineering Officer, Android Ops Officer, Photonic Science Officer, Gorn Science Officer, and Reman Medical Officer jumping into their Jem'Hadar Carrier and flying off to do missions for the new Romulan Empire. But for some players allowing a T5 Connie to be used breaks the canon in the game.
  • varnoukhvarnoukh Member Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited April 2014
    thecosmic1 wrote: »
    It seems to me you were given an answer. Not every bug if fixable. You just do not like that answer. I am sure Cryptic will have copies of their reply to you when the FTC comes calling, in about 3-4 years. :)

    More lies?

    The GMs did not claim the bug was unfixable. Nor did I claim they claimed that. They said they couldn't fix it themselves.

    And no this bug definitely isn't unfixable. No bug is. This one is almost certainly a simple matter of corrupt database entries which are incredibly easy to fix if you have access to the tables.
  • thecosmic1thecosmic1 Member Posts: 9,365 Arc User
    edited April 2014
    varnoukh wrote: »
    More lies?

    The GMs did not claim the bug was unfixable. Nor did I claim they claimed that. They said they couldn't fix it themselves.

    And no this bug definitely isn't unfixable. No bug is. This one is almost certainly a simple matter of corrupt database entries which are incredibly easy to fix if you have access to the tables.
    From your own post: "then told me it was a technical problem and they couldn't do anything about it."

    Thus it is an unfixable bug for them if they cannot do anything about it. Cannot is not the same as will not.
    STO is about my Liberated Borg Federation Captain with his Breen 1st Officer, Jem'Hadar Tactical Officer, Liberated Borg Engineering Officer, Android Ops Officer, Photonic Science Officer, Gorn Science Officer, and Reman Medical Officer jumping into their Jem'Hadar Carrier and flying off to do missions for the new Romulan Empire. But for some players allowing a T5 Connie to be used breaks the canon in the game.
  • o0kami87o0kami87 Member Posts: 590 Arc User
    edited April 2014
    As long as the game doesn't go pay to win I'm happy, store bought game stuff should be cosmetic and gimmicky only. While STO has come close to this line before they have yet to cross it.
    First, Vice Admiral, U.S.S. Wolf Pack-F, NX-101687-FFirst., Vice Admiral, A.R.W. Moon WolfWolf, I.K.S. Frost Bite
  • daan2006daan2006 Member Posts: 5,346 Arc User
    edited April 2014
    o0kami87 wrote: »
    As long as the game doesn't go pay to win I'm happy, store bought game stuff should be cosmetic and gimmicky only. While STO has come close to this line before they have yet to cross it.

    lmao as long as it dont its been pay to win since f2p
    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
    swimwear off risa not fixed
    system Lord Baal is dead
    macronius wrote: »
    This! Their ability to outdo their own failures is quite impressive. If only this power could be harnessed for good.
  • thecosmic1thecosmic1 Member Posts: 9,365 Arc User
    edited April 2014
    daan2006 wrote: »
    lmao as long as it dont its been pay to win since f2p
    Since FTP? It has been P2W since the Excelsior was put into the C-Store shortly after Launch 4 years ago.
    STO is about my Liberated Borg Federation Captain with his Breen 1st Officer, Jem'Hadar Tactical Officer, Liberated Borg Engineering Officer, Android Ops Officer, Photonic Science Officer, Gorn Science Officer, and Reman Medical Officer jumping into their Jem'Hadar Carrier and flying off to do missions for the new Romulan Empire. But for some players allowing a T5 Connie to be used breaks the canon in the game.
  • daan2006daan2006 Member Posts: 5,346 Arc User
    edited April 2014
    thecosmic1 wrote: »
    Since FTP? It has been P2W since the Excelsior was put into the C-Store shortly after Launch 4 years ago.

    well i would have also went with bug ship but that works to :)
    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
    swimwear off risa not fixed
    system Lord Baal is dead
    macronius wrote: »
    This! Their ability to outdo their own failures is quite impressive. If only this power could be harnessed for good.
  • varnoukhvarnoukh Member Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited April 2014
    thecosmic1 wrote: »
    You do understand that the GMs are not Support, right? GM's do not and cannot fix bugs. So I will ask again, did you file any "Support" tickets or only GM tickets? I found no mention of you using the word Support in any posts about filing tickets.

    They don't make this distinction.

    I filed a support ticket and all the emails sitting in my inbox are from Customer Support / PerfectWorld Support. However they refer to themselves as GMs.

    Product Level 1: Star Trek Online
    Category Level 1: Customer Support
    Category Level 2: Gameplay

    "We have refiled this as a Bug Report; In the future, to help us provide the highest quality service to our players, please use the "Report a Bug" button in the Help and Support menu, rather than "Request GM Help", when reporting possible bugs that may not require immediate intervention by a GM."

    If you were correct - and I don't think you are - then a half-way competent GM would have either suggested I lodge a 'support' ticket or referred me on.
  • o0kami87o0kami87 Member Posts: 590 Arc User
    edited April 2014
    daan2006 wrote: »
    lmao as long as it dont its been pay to win since f2p

    Shame you feel that way, I do not. I have 2 accounts on sto, one is a lifetime account with all the trimmings (have had since launch) the other is a f2p account I made when f2p came out. I use a friend that also has a life time account to test just about every ship in the game, and anything else you can get your hands on. I experience vary little to no difference from playing with/against him when on ether account. And my F2P account is 100% f2p, no Zen conversion or anything.
    First, Vice Admiral, U.S.S. Wolf Pack-F, NX-101687-FFirst., Vice Admiral, A.R.W. Moon WolfWolf, I.K.S. Frost Bite
  • varnoukhvarnoukh Member Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited April 2014
    thecosmic1 wrote: »
    From your own post: "then told me it was a technical problem and they couldn't do anything about it."

    Thus it is an unfixable bug for them if they cannot do anything about it. Cannot is not the same as will not.

    No. Thus you misinterpreted what I wrote. Admittedly this is less clear in this one bit you've cherrypicked but it's crystal clear in the other posts you seem not to see.

    "They" refers only to the GMs/Support staff, not the whole of Cryptic or PWE, and "their" inability to fix it does not mean it is unfixable.
  • thecosmic1thecosmic1 Member Posts: 9,365 Arc User
    edited April 2014
    varnoukh wrote: »
    They don't make this distinction.

    I filed a support ticket and all the emails sitting in my inbox are from Customer Support / PerfectWorld Support. However they refer to themselves as GMs.

    Product Level 1: Star Trek Online
    Category Level 1: Customer Support
    Category Level 2: Gameplay

    "We have refiled this as a Bug Report; In the future, to help us provide the highest quality service to our players, please use the "Report a Bug" button in the Help and Support menu, rather than "Request GM Help", when reporting possible bugs that may not require immediate intervention by a GM."

    If you were correct - and I don't think you are - then a half-way competent GM would have either suggested I lodge a 'support' ticket or referred me on.
    I am really not in the mood to get into a major debate tonight so I will simply say, you have the only answer from then you will get. The BBB will do nothing. Good luck with your FTC report. It will take years to get anywhere; if they even assume that your inability to play a character infringes on your ability to play the game with other characters.

    I wish you the best, though.
    STO is about my Liberated Borg Federation Captain with his Breen 1st Officer, Jem'Hadar Tactical Officer, Liberated Borg Engineering Officer, Android Ops Officer, Photonic Science Officer, Gorn Science Officer, and Reman Medical Officer jumping into their Jem'Hadar Carrier and flying off to do missions for the new Romulan Empire. But for some players allowing a T5 Connie to be used breaks the canon in the game.
  • thecosmic1thecosmic1 Member Posts: 9,365 Arc User
    edited April 2014
    o0kami87 wrote: »
    Shame you feel that way, I do not. I have 2 accounts on sto, one is a lifetime account with all the trimmings (have had since launch) the other is a f2p account I made when f2p came out. I use a friend that also has a life time account to test just about every ship in the game, and anything else you can get your hands on. I experience vary little to no difference from playing with/against him when on ether account. And my F2P account is 100% f2p, no Zen conversion or anything.
    I can only assume you do not PvP then. There is no way that free ships, like the Sovereign, match up to C-Store or Fleet ships. Yes, in PvE the differences mean very little but in PvP the differences are huge.
    STO is about my Liberated Borg Federation Captain with his Breen 1st Officer, Jem'Hadar Tactical Officer, Liberated Borg Engineering Officer, Android Ops Officer, Photonic Science Officer, Gorn Science Officer, and Reman Medical Officer jumping into their Jem'Hadar Carrier and flying off to do missions for the new Romulan Empire. But for some players allowing a T5 Connie to be used breaks the canon in the game.
  • varnoukhvarnoukh Member Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited April 2014
    thecosmic1 wrote: »
    It will take years to get anywhere; if they even assume that your inability to play a character infringes on your ability to play the game with other characters.

    At least one court in Europe has ruled that objects in online games constitute property for the purpose of theft laws.

    STO is a spectacular character-based grindfest. Reputation and many items, some of which are quite expensive in real dollar terms, are character based. As it happens I have several non-transferable ships on my main character, the worst affected by this bug.

    So if STO tried to claim I should just play another character I'd effectively be out of pocket somewhere between $100 and $200 in non-transferable items.
  • o0kami87o0kami87 Member Posts: 590 Arc User
    edited April 2014
    thecosmic1 wrote: »
    I can only assume you do not PvP then. There is no way that free ships, like the Sovereign, match up to C-Store or Fleet ships. Yes, in PvE the differences mean very little but in PvP the differences are huge.

    I 1v1 pvp, multi pvp is overcrowded with preset teams, one on one the gimmicks from the store and boxes mean vary little. (I hear they've fixed this pre made team thing, haven't checked it out)
    First, Vice Admiral, U.S.S. Wolf Pack-F, NX-101687-FFirst., Vice Admiral, A.R.W. Moon WolfWolf, I.K.S. Frost Bite
  • thecosmic1thecosmic1 Member Posts: 9,365 Arc User
    edited April 2014
    varnoukh wrote: »
    At least one court in Europe has ruled that objects in online games constitute property for the purpose of theft laws.

    STO is a spectacular character-based grindfest. Reputation and many items, some of which are quite expensive in real dollar terms, are character based. As it happens I have several non-transferable ships on my main character, the worst affected by this bug.

    So if STO tried to claim I should just play another character I'd effectively be out of pocket somewhere between $100 and $200 in non-transferable items.
    Save your argument for the FTC. It means nothing to the other players on the forum. :)
    STO is about my Liberated Borg Federation Captain with his Breen 1st Officer, Jem'Hadar Tactical Officer, Liberated Borg Engineering Officer, Android Ops Officer, Photonic Science Officer, Gorn Science Officer, and Reman Medical Officer jumping into their Jem'Hadar Carrier and flying off to do missions for the new Romulan Empire. But for some players allowing a T5 Connie to be used breaks the canon in the game.
  • daan2006daan2006 Member Posts: 5,346 Arc User
    edited April 2014
    o0kami87 wrote: »
    I use a friend that also has a life time account to test just about every ship in the game, and anything else you can get your hands on.

    are you saying you play on a friends account????? if so you do know that a no no?
    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
    swimwear off risa not fixed
    system Lord Baal is dead
    macronius wrote: »
    This! Their ability to outdo their own failures is quite impressive. If only this power could be harnessed for good.
  • thecosmic1thecosmic1 Member Posts: 9,365 Arc User
    edited April 2014
    o0kami87 wrote: »
    I 1v1 pvp, multi pvp is overcrowded with preset teams, one on one the gimmicks from the store and boxes mean vary little. (I hear they've fixed this pre made team thing, haven't checked it out)
    Free Sovereign: 3 Tac, 4 Eng, 2 Sci Consoles, 39,000 Hull, +5 Power all Systems. Lt Tac, En Tac, Cmd Eng, Lt Cmd Eng, Lt Sci.

    Fleet Sovereign: 4 Tac, 4 Eng, 2 Sci Consoles, 42,900 Hull, +10 Weapons, +5 Shields, +5 Aux. Lt Cmdr Tac, En Tac, Cmd Eng, Lt Eng, Lt Universal.

    Those two ships are vastly different in power and ability. The Lt Cmd Tac, alone, opens up abilities the free Sovereign cannot touch.
    STO is about my Liberated Borg Federation Captain with his Breen 1st Officer, Jem'Hadar Tactical Officer, Liberated Borg Engineering Officer, Android Ops Officer, Photonic Science Officer, Gorn Science Officer, and Reman Medical Officer jumping into their Jem'Hadar Carrier and flying off to do missions for the new Romulan Empire. But for some players allowing a T5 Connie to be used breaks the canon in the game.
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