As it stands now on Holodeck, it's providing a +15% base damage boost. The previous version on Tribble provided a +10% non-base boost. That was a significant boost compared to what is currently on Holo.
It's not a case that additional shots are going to do zero extra damage. They might do worse damage or they might do better damage. They overwrite...so it will be a case of maintaining the 3x SDoTs on the target.
That's not how I see it.
Take my Transphasic build I have x2 Rapid fire torpedo, x2 Cluster torpedo in the front, x2 mines in the rear with disposal pattern alpha+beta . So 1 torpedo spread and I hit the stacking limited. That means the following 16 + rear mines and 10+cluster mines are doing zero extra damage. If I have pattern Alpha running alone side beta that’s another 10 ish mines with no proc.
30 to 40+ hits in short time frame and only 3 procs is a massive damage nerf.
Those 3 procs hits at 15% damage boost are nowhere near as good as those 30 to 40+ hits I get right now on holo at 10% base.
I just do not see how this is anything but a very large damage nerf for torpedo boats.
Sorry I strongly disagree as my Transphasic build dropped in damage a lot. My cluster torpedoe instead of having a damage boost to all 10 mines like the old system I had a damage boost to 3 mines, with 7 mines zero damage boost. The rear mines which would have benefited from the proc with 80% shield pen did nothing as the front cluster mines and/or torpedo's already hit the stacking limit. So again rear mine zero damage bonus.
Even with just 2 torpedo's you hit the stacking limit. I can see how single Transphasic torpedo launcher builds gained DPS but projectile-centric builds are not benefiting.
Why is there no talk about the Omega Graviton Amplifiers power which is also useless for torpedo and mine users? The proc chance is to low so you get one proc every 30mins or longer in projectile-centric builds.
I think that's the point here, if I read Hawk's post correctly. The idea is to encourage a mix of torp and DD if you want to use this trait, so torp centric builds not benefiting would be what's intended. I think the idea is to limit you to one fore and one aft launcher weapon getting the benefit.
That being said, your point on the cluster torp and mine stacks is valid - perhaps if the stack limit gets raised to 5, the cluster torp needs to be reduced to 5 larger mines? It would not solve the Cluster+Mine issue, but at least the cluster itself would still be effective, and for Dispersal Pattern powers to remain useful.
You can still stack HY/TS...you just can't stack HY/HY nor TS/TS. HY and TS each provide a 30s, so even with the 15s CD imposed from activating one - you've still got 15s to activate the other. So you can stack HY/TS and let loose...
oh ya, that's right. but what i found is that the HY lockout simply doesn't exist, wile the spread lockout works correctly.
no one even uses HY anymore anyway, because spread seems to do the same thing to a single target, better, and doesn't create destructible suck torps of fail. the only bad thing i can say about the grav photon is that using HY makes it destructible
I think that's the point here, if I read Hawk's post correctly. The idea is to encourage a mix of torp and DD if you want to use this trait, so torp centric builds not benefiting would be what's intended. I think the idea is to limit you to one fore and one aft launcher weapon getting the benefit.
That being said, your point on the cluster torp and mine stacks is valid - perhaps if the stack limit gets raised to 5, the cluster torp needs to be reduced to 5 larger mines? It would not solve the Cluster+Mine issue, but at least the cluster itself would still be effective....
The more I think about it the more it does the opposite and encourages players to remove projectiles. Even with x2 torpedoes, x2 mines and x4 energy weapons you are still going to hit the stacking limit and so see no extra damage. You may as well remove half the projectiles and pick something else or pick a more useful rep power.
Why would anyone pick this over say something like crit chance which at least works with all hits?
oh ya, that's right. but what i found is that the HY lockout simply doesn't exist, wile the spread lockout works correctly.
no one even uses HY anymore anyway, because spread seems to do the same thing to a single target, better, and doesn't create destructible suck torps of fail. the only bad thing i can say about the grav photon is that using HY makes it destructible
The undine missions actually create a use case for HY again, with the time limits and resistances of the planet killers; I have found single-target attacks useful again for the first time in forever while testing on Tribble, since the faster you kill them, the faster you can move on. If they can keep up the trend of not having every opponent in the game vulnerable to the same things in the same ways, maybe some other powers might be useful again too, and give us some point to all the added flexibility the new trait system gives us.
Sadly, I'm still not seeing any notes on making the infected skin a full body art asset rather than just ending it horribly at the neck... Will this ever be fixed for the LTS people who paid for the Liberated Borg?
Any captain that has a T10 or T11 Set Accolade in progress will find their associated Accolade completed, and will be granted the appropriate Title(s) upon logging in.
These Accolades will no longer be accessible to new players, and will not appear in Accolade lists from this point forward.
T10 or T11 accolade? I'm not really sure what this is, but knowing that it's going away, is it something I should look into getting?
Omega Weapons Training has been replaced with a new reputation trait, Omega Kinetic Shearing.
Omega Kinetic Shearing causes all of your Mine and Torpedo attacks to deal 40% extra damage over a 6 second period.
I'm actually looking to test this a bit more with my kinetic builds.
Re-scaled the magnitude of many new module-based kit-powers.
Very Rare quality Kit modules are now generally equivalent to Rank III Kit powers in the old Kit system.
Does this include the Mk XII purples? How will this affect the fleet gear? For the most part, the III isn't so bad, but with the update to kits, i was hoping that we would be allowed to get all powers at the IV rank, or for the non-fleet kits. Are the IV ranks being removed to keep us from doing this? With the traits being limited, knocking back the kit powers to their lower rank, seems like a further nerf to the players. How will this affect the fleet kits? will i still be able to get all max rank skills?
Resolved issues where some Kit powers were creating level 1 turrets or gas clouds, instead of creating pets at the level of the item that summoned them.
Corrected an issue where Suppressing Fire did not receive any bonus scaling from using higher Mark modules.
Its duration now increases as the mark of the module used increases.
Updated all the Fleet Kit stores to allow a player to buy the Kit Frame and Kit Module separately.
The Fleet Kits cost about 70% of the price they previously did.
The Fleet Modules cost about 30% of the price that the Kit previously did.
Updated all Fleet Kit Modules to be Ultrarare quality, up from Very Rare quality.
[/LIST]
One of my points of frustration with this game is how many things don't really seem to be working as stated, so seeing things like this really make me wonder. Were these things that never really worked like they should and haven't been fixed until now, or did these things get broken in the update? Is there a definitive place we can go to see the things Cryptic knows aren't working? Or is it to be covered up and ignored until the next update points it out?
The new queued event, Undine Infiltration, is still a work in progress.
The Reputation Revamp and 8472 Counter-Command Reputation are both still a work in progress.
The Dyson Sphere Undine Battlezone is still a work in progress.
The new Earth Space Dock is still a work in progress.
Viscous Cycle is still a work in progress.
The new queued event Undine Assault is still a work in progress.
The new Kit Revamp is still a work in progress.
With a less than a week to go before this launches, should the entirety of Season 9 really be considered a work in progress still? I know Cryptic has a bad reputation for releasing things unfinished, but given the track record of going back and finishing things (infected skin, all of Champions online, etc) this really doesn't seem to bode well. More so since the seasons are being limited to a new grind, a new zone to grind for the new grind, and maybe a single story mission.
I know the team is hard at work trying to make this stuff, but at the same time, it really doesn't seem like it's getting the testing time or the quality that it really should be for something that really doesn't seem like a season's worth of content. When Cryptic started developing STO, Champions was left to rot for a year and was never really given a fair chance. When developing NW, STO was feeling a hit to the development as well. With a new game in the works, is this happening again? Is that why seasons 8 and 9, as well as LoR, were half finished and not what we were advertised?
I don't really mean to come off as negative here, but honestly, given the track record, these things are probably not ready for release just yet. Especially if you're making the testers grind for it rather than giving them ample time to actually test and break it. Any time Cryptic adds to their games, they break them. Taking away the ability and ease of players testing, is only going to mean that there is that much more to break by pushing content to live halfassed, unfinished, and not ready.
Naus Captain
3x Naus BOFFs
1x Embassy BOFF
EWO BO Penetration DOFF(s)
Omni AP Turret BO
Stacked HY/TS
Enhanced Bio Photon Torp
Gravimetric Photon Torp
Temporal/Tricobalt
Hargh'peng
Flanking
Improved Ambush
Shearing
Aux Power Config - Offense
Precision
Tactical Advantage
3x ATVx Torp Consoles
2pc KHG
2-3pc Protonic (Experimental aft)
We can't run the new console yet, but that's going to provide even a larger projectile boost based on Bort's post.
Something I have been meaning to ask, with the lower tier MACO/Omega/Honor Guard armor visuals going away are we losing access to any visual parts? Or did the mark 12 armor visuals include all same stuff as the lower tier versions?
The more I think about it the more it does the opposite and encourages players to remove projectiles. Even with x2 torpedoes, x2 mines and x4 energy weapons you are still going to hit the stacking limit and so see no extra damage. You may as well remove half the projectiles and pick something else or pick a more useful rep power.
Why would anyone pick this over say something like crit chance which at least works with all hits?
I was thinking they intend 1x fore torp and 1x aft torp/mine, not two of each. That would keep things from overwriting too fast.
Is it really worth it? Depends on what you are trying to accomplish. If all you want is max DPS, it still is, albeit not by much. If you want spike damage, no it's definitely not.
Which seems to be the trend of all of these changes - tone things down and reduce overall spike damage while maintaining most of the overall DPS capability.
It's almost as if they were balancing the game out so that they have a baseline for a big change like might come in an expansion. But that's crazy talk - I'm sure there's nothing like that in the works.
I was thinking they intend 1x fore torp and 1x aft torp/mine, not two of each. That would keep things from overwriting too fast.
I can see your point but its not how I view it. My thinking is along the lines of a projectile centric build is going to be using projectile boosting tac consoles. Anyone who has projectile boosting tac consoles is going to be running x2 mines, x2 torpedos at a minimum. Anything less and you are wasting those tac consoles and hurting your own DPS. The game is built so you go full projectile focused or full energy focused. A hybrid mix of the two do not tend to work.
I'll keep a close eye on the stack limit - it was put there mostly to prevent any absurd edge cases I couldn't think of from getting out of hand, and to encourage players to use both projectiles and energy weapons together. I could see raising it to 5 so that a HY barrage doesn't overwrite itself. I could maybe see removing the stack limit altogether, but that pushes people back towards "throw as many projectiles as possible" instead of "focus on big hits on weak shield facings". If nothing else, I could see changing it so that the DoT only gets replaced if it's higher mag than the one it's replacing.
The goal with this trait is to give projectile-centric builds a means of coming closer to PvE viability, but without increasing their potential spike burst damage to absurd heights. It definitely provides a substantial increase to the DPS of a Transphasic PvE setup over Holodeck potential DPS.
I can't see this trait working with stack limit. Problem with torpedo Spreads/HY and torps of different damage is only small part of greater problem. What about mines? Mines dispersal patterns release multiple mines at once, and each of these huge salvoes will result in only 3 DoTs... People using Torpedo/Mine mix will be in even worse situation.
If spike damage will be a problem - IMO the solution is increasing effect duration (+40% damage over 10-12 seconds instead of 6s) This DoT is cleared by both Science Team and Hazard Emitters - there is basically no ship without access to any of them, so after stack limit removal, even duration increase is not justified at all...
Anyway, without removal of stack limit this trait will be useful only for very limited number of builds using projectiles - while dedicated torpedo/mine boats will be advised to not use it at all.
Something I have been meaning to ask, with the lower tier MACO/Omega/Honor Guard armor visuals going away are we losing access to any visual parts? Or did the mark 12 armor visuals include all same stuff as the lower tier versions?
The MK XII set is the whole set. Lower ranks are removing parts from the set. The different parts are from projects or accolades, so they won't be removing them at all. This just means that you'll be getting the full set instead of just part of it at lower ranks.
I can see your point but its not how I view it. My thinking is along the lines of a projectile centric build is going to be using projectile boosting tac consoles. Anyone who has projectile boosting tac consoles is going to be running x2 mines, x2 torpedos at a minimum. Anything less and you are wasting those tac consoles and hurting your own DPS. The game is built so you go full projectile focused or full energy focused. A hybrid mix of the two do not tend to work.
That's correct, and I think the idea here is to try and MAKE a hybrid build more useful. To be honest, it accomplishes that; it makes replacing a single DD weapon with a torp more appealing. If this were a NEW trait, it would be welcome, but since it replaces something more powerful we're resisting seeing that.
I just do not see how this is anything but a very large damage nerf for torpedo boats.
It's an issue with mines and stacking, not an issue for torps. For torps, it's an increase. With mines, because of the sheer number of them that might be involved - the 3stack could easily represent a nerf.
It's a tough one to work out, because you have to look at what's involved. For instance, the +15% base/strength boost that exists on Tribble currently is providing ~59.1 unbuffed damage per mine. 16x mines and that's a total of 945.6 extra damage..unbuffed. 82% of that hitting the hull, means ~775.4 extra hull damage.
Meh, let's step back and look at the overall damage from both.
Say you had a VR Mk XII launcher, 2pc Breen, 3x ATVx Trans, 9 Weapon, 9 Projectile...
Add in OWT on Holo, and you'd be looking at ~1842.1 damage. 82% to hull for 1510.5 damage...times 16 for 24168 damage.
On Tribble, go the Shearing route; you'd be looking at ~1783.0 damage...82% hitting hull for ~1462.1 damage...times 16 for 23393.6 damage. Add in 3x Shearing off of that ~1462.1, 584.84 * 3 = ~1754.5 and add that to 23393.6 for 25148.1 damage.
It's still an increase in damage. The more you buff up - the better Shearing gets compared to how it is on Holo.
But yeah, it's pretty easy to see the issue you're describing even though it's a buff for both torps and mines...it's a nerf when both toprs and mines are used. Which is probably part of where Hawk decided to take a look at the stack limit. Cause you add in mines to torps or add in torps to mines...and you lose out.
But then again, he also said that bit about trying to get away from folks running the projectile builds, eh? Meh...
Something else to consider is that in any case - it's a PvP nerf. Whether you're looking at the SDoT being cleansed by ST, HE, or WCE...there's also the case that it's a DoT and all the passive heal procs that means can triggered...meh.
Anyone who has projectile boosting tac consoles is going to be running x2 mines, x2 torpedos at a minimum.
Why? I tend to run 6-7 Torps...no Mines. Every now and again, I might work a single Mine launcher in to the process. Mines generally get obliterated and tend to be a loss of damage outside of certain scenarios. Carrying two of them with the lockout? There's also working in the possible DPA/DPB...which is also going to cause further damage loss issues. It's one of the reasons why in that earlier post I did...I didn't even think about mines.
That's correct, and I think the idea here is to try and MAKE a hybrid build more useful. To be honest, it accomplishes that; it makes replacing a single DD weapon with a torp more appealing. If this were a NEW trait, it would be welcome, but since it replaces something more powerful we're resisting seeing that.
It is useless for hybrid builds with 1-2 Torpedo Launchers since CrtH/CrtD traits will be far more benefiting... and I don't see captain sacrificing trait slot for single torpedo launcher.
Stacking limit is also limiting number of possible users to 1/10 of people who still use torps/mines. Rest of them will simply choice other traits, because bonus projectiles damage given by OKS will negligible.
Also, please remember how easy to remove this DoT is. There is no ship without either Science Team or Hazard Emitters, while many ships run them both.
I'll keep a close eye on the stack limit - it was put there mostly to prevent any absurd edge cases I couldn't think of from getting out of hand, and to encourage players to use both projectiles and energy weapons together. I could see raising it to 5 so that a HY barrage doesn't overwrite itself. I could maybe see removing the stack limit altogether, but that pushes people back towards "throw as many projectiles as possible" instead of "focus on big hits on weak shield facings". If nothing else, I could see changing it so that the DoT only gets replaced if it's higher mag than the one it's replacing.
The goal with this trait is to give projectile-centric builds a means of coming closer to PvE viability, but without increasing their potential spike burst damage to absurd heights. It definitely provides a substantial increase to the DPS of a Transphasic PvE setup over Holodeck potential DPS.
A few things from my perspective.
1) Projectile focused builds already are viable. They work best on specific ships but so does everything.
2) The reasons players don't mix energy and projectile weapons are many. But to sum it up with the way STO mechanics work you are much better off pushing one thing to the extreme than you are diversifying. This applies to nearly everything in STO from tanking methods to damage output. If you really want to encourage a mix release new tactical consoles that provide +32% specific energy and +15% generic torpedo.
3) Because it is a DoT effect, and easily cleared in PvP, the odds of it becoming an absurd spike damage booster are slim.
My suggestion is to change it to deal the damage five or six seconds after it is applied similar to the radiation torpedo. Then remove the stack limit and allow it to calculate a reduced amount of damage from the total damage instead of just the hull damage.
I'm curious about the possibility of making it more of a normalized/standardized amount of damage - rather than it being based potentially on the torp itself.
Basically, two torps came to mind.
Ferengi Rapid vs. Transphasic
You're looking at some hefty extremes there, eh?
Course, in thinking about it - can't help but wonder why some form of normalized shearing isn't simply added to projectiles at their core...and that this particular Rep Trait could be something else related to fighting the Borg.
Naus Captain
3x Naus BOFFs
1x Embassy BOFF
EWO BO Penetration DOFF(s)
Omni AP Turret BO
Stacked HY/TS
Enhanced Bio Photon Torp
Gravimetric Photon Torp
Temporal/Tricobalt
Hargh'peng
Flanking
Improved Ambush
Shearing
Aux Power Config - Offense
Precision
Tactical Advantage
3x ATVx Torp Consoles
2pc KHG
2-3pc Protonic (Experimental aft)
We can't run the new console yet, but that's going to provide even a larger projectile boost based on Bort's post.
Etc, etc, etc.
Some of those listed do not work as they state in tool tips(naussican boffs, hargh'peng is an utter joke, BO doffs aren't really good with a ship designed around pure cannon use, and most of those other torps are 95% negated or higher with 1 shield point on the facing) and then other factor is the shields will absorb most of the damage from them. The point to where torps are ineffective to shields was the whole point which whole reason you don't see people using that EBC mode.
However though the b'rel itself is a touchy subject because people start crying and whining every time someone mentions the idea of it being used like its advertised because then they would have to put a hull heal on when all they want to do is counter it with distributing shields either manually or with tactical team. As well unless they do like drunk guy said it won't add up to a hill of beans because you can have all the torp damage consoles in the world but only about 5% to 0% of the damage will actually occur. So they either need to reduce the damage torps do to shields, or either something special to the b'rel where it can gain shield pentration. Although the track record with the KDF is that if we do get something its just a gimmick(bortasqu') or nostalgia/collectors item(b'rel and other canon klingon ships that are available in game but nothing much special about them other than boff stations).
Naus Captain
3x Naus BOFFs
1x Embassy BOFF
EWO BO Penetration DOFF(s)
Omni AP Turret BO
Stacked HY/TS
Enhanced Bio Photon Torp
Gravimetric Photon Torp
Temporal/Tricobalt
Hargh'peng
Flanking
Improved Ambush
Shearing
Aux Power Config - Offense
Precision
Tactical Advantage
3x ATVx Torp Consoles
2pc KHG
2-3pc Protonic (Experimental aft)
We can't run the new console yet, but that's going to provide even a larger projectile boost based on Bort's post.
Pirate does two things. +Damage and a non-stacking buff to Starship Stealth (the skill). Both the Damage and +75 Stealth Value (1 Starship Stealth = 0.5 Stealth Value) are working.
BO doffs aren't really good with a ship designed around pure cannon use,
Pure cannon use? On a ship without cannons? It's a torp boat. The EWO Penetration buff from the BO from the OD AP Beam Turret applies to all attacks...including torps. So, you flank decloak - BO - EWO procs...more damage hits hull - greater damage from shearing.
However though the b'rel itself is a touchy subject because people start crying and whining every time someone mentions the idea of it being used like its advertised because then they would have to put a hull heal on when all they want to do is counter it with distributing shields either manually or with tactical team. As well unless they do like drunk guy said it won't add up to a hill of beans because you can have all the torp damage consoles in the world but only about 5% to 0% of the damage will actually occur. So they either need to reduce the damage torps do to shields, or either something special to the b'rel where it can gain shield pentration. Although the track record with the KDF is that if we do get something its just a gimmick(bortasqu') or nostalgia/collectors item(b'rel and other canon klingon ships that are available in game but nothing much special about them other than boff stations).
If you reduce the shield damage reduction, you have to reduce the damage as well. Torp damage is balanced around that shield damage reduction.
HY3 Quants w/ 0 Tac consoles will hit hull harder than a BO3 w/ 5 Tac consoles.
BO3 w/ 0 Tac consoles will hit shields harder than HY3 Quants w/ 5 Tac consoles.
If you reduce the shield damage reduction and their damage...then there would be no reason to use projectiles - because rather than Energy being better for Shields and Kinetic being better for Hull, Energy would simply be better in both cases.
If nothing else, I could see changing it so that the DoT only gets replaced if it's higher mag than the one it's replacing.
You could also keep track of all the DoTs and apply only the top three. Suppose we have four DoTs ordered from greatest to least as follows:
DoT1 > DoT2 > DoT3 > DoT4
Suppose the target is being damaged by DoT1, DoT2, and DoT3 when DoT4 hits. Instead of dropping DoT4, you could keep DoT4, but not apply it until one of the other DoTs expires.
Why cant they just flat out boost torpedo damage, rather than to add this easy to bug up dot system?
Simple, a flat torp damage bonus would only be a balance tweak that has absolutely no chance of adding in any new strategy or depth to the game. It's the safe options, as far as QA is concerned, but its also the more boring one.
Bipedal mammal and senior Foundry author.
Notable missions: Apex [AEI], Gemini [SSF], Trident [AEI], Evolution's Smile [SSF], Transcendence
Looking for something new to play? I've started building Foundry missions again in visual novel form!
You could also keep track of all the DoTs and apply only the top three. Suppose we have four DoTs ordered from greatest to least as follows:
DoT1 > DoT2 > DoT3 > DoT4
Suppose the target is being damaged by DoT1, DoT2, and DoT3 when DoT4 hits. Instead of dropping DoT4, you could keep DoT4, but not apply it until one of the other DoTs expires.
It's kind of rough, as pottsey5g pointed out...the sheer number of projectiles one could actually unload at a time (and thus the genuine complaint about it being a nerf for certain builds beyond even the Energy folks).
I didn't test it with the Breen Cluster. Did see that it didn't work with the Beachball. Don't remember if anybody mentioned testing it with the Shrapnel or Wide-Angle.
If it does work with the Cluster, well - you could technically build a DPB3, HY3, TS3, DPA1, Cluster, normal Torp, normal Mine...where you DPB, normal Mine, DPA, normal Mine, Cluster, fire off the HY/TS, and still have additional Torps on their way. As long as there wasn't anything dropping out some sort of AoE damage - that would be a Hell of a lot of projectiles itching to shear that Cryptic would need to track.
And they'd have to do it for each player doing it at any given moment...heh, ever done a projectilegasm run of CCE where almost everybody's just spewing torps and mines?
This wording makes it sound as if the stacking limit is per attacker, not per target. Is this correct?
That's the way I read it - but when I was on, I didn't see anybody else...should have probably checked the Undine SBZ to see if anybody there had the Trait and could have looked at it...meh, but I don't like people - so I didn't think of it. :P
It's kind of rough, as pottsey5g pointed out...the sheer number of projectiles one could actually unload at a time (and thus the genuine complaint about it being a nerf for certain builds beyond even the Energy folks).
...
As long as there wasn't anything dropping out some sort of AoE damage - that would be a Hell of a lot of projectiles itching to shear that Cryptic would need to track.
My suggestion was only meant to be an alternative they might consider. I'm not really attached to it.
Is the Beachball the Nukara Web Mines? I saw that the tooltip for Omega Kinetic Shearing said eiither "kinetic projectiles" or "kinetic torpedoes and mines" (I don't remember the exact wording). I've never seen that in a tooltip before; it would have been redundant before the web mines.
My suggestion was only meant to be an alternative they might consider. I'm not really attached to it.
Oh, it was more of a general statement about the sheer number of projectiles one could potentially drop out - just food for thought for them if they hadn't thought of it. Heck, I hadn't really though of it until pottsey5g mentioned it.
Is the Beachball the Nukara Web Mines? I saw that the tooltip for Omega Kinetic Shearing said eiither "kinetic projectiles" or "kinetic torpedoes and mines" (I don't remember the exact wording). I've never seen that in a tooltip before; it would have been redundant before the web mines.
Beachball...heh, it's the Destabilized Plasma Torpedo from the T'varo Retrofit. Big ol' red glowing ball of doom...it's a console torp instead of a weapon torp. So I wondered if any of the other console projectiles were affected by it or not.
One of my main issues with this change of omega weapons is it looks to favor already effective torpedoes the transphasics while other torps won't get much of a upgrade from this. Is this intentional if so I hope you plan to make a few that help plasmas photons quantum and tribolt. Also I hope you can make this effect cutting beam as well very few things help it.
Also it being countered by haz emitter seems like a huge nerf, science team i understand. But haz emitters already heal over time countering damage taken. There should be at least some dots, unaffected by this OP Hull heal/cleanse. This would improve the pressure damage this trait would give.
Also it being countered by haz emitter seems like a huge nerf, science team i understand. But haz emitters already heal over time countering damage taken. There should be at least some dots, unaffected by this OP Hull heal/cleanse. This would improve the pressure damage this trait would give.
Honestly, as I mentioned earlier - I can't see why either should clear it. If there is to be a cleanse for it, shouldn't it be Engineering Team?
Ensign: Captain, the hull's shearing.
Captain: Send in the Scientists!
First Officer: Sir, shouldn't we send the Engineers?
Captain: Look, I know that makes sense...but that's just not the way it works.
The goal with this trait is to give projectile-centric builds a means of coming closer to PvE viability, but without increasing their potential spike burst damage to absurd heights. It definitely provides a substantial increase to the DPS of a Transphasic PvE setup over Holodeck potential DPS.
This sounds like a sorry excuse for a de facto nerf of almost all the builds players actually field. Transphasic builds are sub par in PvE and this trait won't change it. I'd really like to see the "Transphasic PvE setup" that you mentioned btw. And please tell me the reason why anybody with the slightest knowledge of builds, skillpoint distribution and game mechanics would prefer a transpasic torp over a hyper plasma, omega plasma, gravimetric photon or even a good old quantum.
If it's your intention to buff torpedos, give them more bleedthru. Or replace Nukara T2 instead. Nobody needs additional shield penetration for NPCs.
Comments
Take my Transphasic build I have x2 Rapid fire torpedo, x2 Cluster torpedo in the front, x2 mines in the rear with disposal pattern alpha+beta . So 1 torpedo spread and I hit the stacking limited. That means the following 16 + rear mines and 10+cluster mines are doing zero extra damage. If I have pattern Alpha running alone side beta that’s another 10 ish mines with no proc.
30 to 40+ hits in short time frame and only 3 procs is a massive damage nerf.
Those 3 procs hits at 15% damage boost are nowhere near as good as those 30 to 40+ hits I get right now on holo at 10% base.
I just do not see how this is anything but a very large damage nerf for torpedo boats.
I think that's the point here, if I read Hawk's post correctly. The idea is to encourage a mix of torp and DD if you want to use this trait, so torp centric builds not benefiting would be what's intended. I think the idea is to limit you to one fore and one aft launcher weapon getting the benefit.
That being said, your point on the cluster torp and mine stacks is valid - perhaps if the stack limit gets raised to 5, the cluster torp needs to be reduced to 5 larger mines? It would not solve the Cluster+Mine issue, but at least the cluster itself would still be effective, and for Dispersal Pattern powers to remain useful.
oh ya, that's right. but what i found is that the HY lockout simply doesn't exist, wile the spread lockout works correctly.
no one even uses HY anymore anyway, because spread seems to do the same thing to a single target, better, and doesn't create destructible suck torps of fail. the only bad thing i can say about the grav photon is that using HY makes it destructible
The more I think about it the more it does the opposite and encourages players to remove projectiles. Even with x2 torpedoes, x2 mines and x4 energy weapons you are still going to hit the stacking limit and so see no extra damage. You may as well remove half the projectiles and pick something else or pick a more useful rep power.
Why would anyone pick this over say something like crit chance which at least works with all hits?
The undine missions actually create a use case for HY again, with the time limits and resistances of the planet killers; I have found single-target attacks useful again for the first time in forever while testing on Tribble, since the faster you kill them, the faster you can move on. If they can keep up the trend of not having every opponent in the game vulnerable to the same things in the same ways, maybe some other powers might be useful again too, and give us some point to all the added flexibility the new trait system gives us.
T10 or T11 accolade? I'm not really sure what this is, but knowing that it's going away, is it something I should look into getting?
I'm actually looking to test this a bit more with my kinetic builds.
Does this include the Mk XII purples? How will this affect the fleet gear? For the most part, the III isn't so bad, but with the update to kits, i was hoping that we would be allowed to get all powers at the IV rank, or for the non-fleet kits. Are the IV ranks being removed to keep us from doing this? With the traits being limited, knocking back the kit powers to their lower rank, seems like a further nerf to the players. How will this affect the fleet kits? will i still be able to get all max rank skills?
One of my points of frustration with this game is how many things don't really seem to be working as stated, so seeing things like this really make me wonder. Were these things that never really worked like they should and haven't been fixed until now, or did these things get broken in the update? Is there a definitive place we can go to see the things Cryptic knows aren't working? Or is it to be covered up and ignored until the next update points it out?
With a less than a week to go before this launches, should the entirety of Season 9 really be considered a work in progress still? I know Cryptic has a bad reputation for releasing things unfinished, but given the track record of going back and finishing things (infected skin, all of Champions online, etc) this really doesn't seem to bode well. More so since the seasons are being limited to a new grind, a new zone to grind for the new grind, and maybe a single story mission.
I know the team is hard at work trying to make this stuff, but at the same time, it really doesn't seem like it's getting the testing time or the quality that it really should be for something that really doesn't seem like a season's worth of content. When Cryptic started developing STO, Champions was left to rot for a year and was never really given a fair chance. When developing NW, STO was feeling a hit to the development as well. With a new game in the works, is this happening again? Is that why seasons 8 and 9, as well as LoR, were half finished and not what we were advertised?
I don't really mean to come off as negative here, but honestly, given the track record, these things are probably not ready for release just yet. Especially if you're making the testers grind for it rather than giving them ample time to actually test and break it. Any time Cryptic adds to their games, they break them. Taking away the ability and ease of players testing, is only going to mean that there is that much more to break by pushing content to live halfassed, unfinished, and not ready.
Have you tried the following on Tribble...?
Naus Captain
3x Naus BOFFs
1x Embassy BOFF
EWO BO Penetration DOFF(s)
Omni AP Turret BO
Stacked HY/TS
Enhanced Bio Photon Torp
Gravimetric Photon Torp
Temporal/Tricobalt
Hargh'peng
Flanking
Improved Ambush
Shearing
Aux Power Config - Offense
Precision
Tactical Advantage
3x ATVx Torp Consoles
2pc KHG
2-3pc Protonic (Experimental aft)
We can't run the new console yet, but that's going to provide even a larger projectile boost based on Bort's post.
Etc, etc, etc.
I was thinking they intend 1x fore torp and 1x aft torp/mine, not two of each. That would keep things from overwriting too fast.
Is it really worth it? Depends on what you are trying to accomplish. If all you want is max DPS, it still is, albeit not by much. If you want spike damage, no it's definitely not.
Which seems to be the trend of all of these changes - tone things down and reduce overall spike damage while maintaining most of the overall DPS capability.
It's almost as if they were balancing the game out so that they have a baseline for a big change like might come in an expansion. But that's crazy talk - I'm sure there's nothing like that in the works.
Just increase kinetic bleedthrough on shields and get out of the way
I can't see this trait working with stack limit. Problem with torpedo Spreads/HY and torps of different damage is only small part of greater problem. What about mines? Mines dispersal patterns release multiple mines at once, and each of these huge salvoes will result in only 3 DoTs... People using Torpedo/Mine mix will be in even worse situation.
If spike damage will be a problem - IMO the solution is increasing effect duration (+40% damage over 10-12 seconds instead of 6s) This DoT is cleared by both Science Team and Hazard Emitters - there is basically no ship without access to any of them, so after stack limit removal, even duration increase is not justified at all...
Anyway, without removal of stack limit this trait will be useful only for very limited number of builds using projectiles - while dedicated torpedo/mine boats will be advised to not use it at all.
The MK XII set is the whole set. Lower ranks are removing parts from the set. The different parts are from projects or accolades, so they won't be removing them at all. This just means that you'll be getting the full set instead of just part of it at lower ranks.
That's correct, and I think the idea here is to try and MAKE a hybrid build more useful. To be honest, it accomplishes that; it makes replacing a single DD weapon with a torp more appealing. If this were a NEW trait, it would be welcome, but since it replaces something more powerful we're resisting seeing that.
It's an issue with mines and stacking, not an issue for torps. For torps, it's an increase. With mines, because of the sheer number of them that might be involved - the 3stack could easily represent a nerf.
It's a tough one to work out, because you have to look at what's involved. For instance, the +15% base/strength boost that exists on Tribble currently is providing ~59.1 unbuffed damage per mine. 16x mines and that's a total of 945.6 extra damage..unbuffed. 82% of that hitting the hull, means ~775.4 extra hull damage.
Meh, let's step back and look at the overall damage from both.
Say you had a VR Mk XII launcher, 2pc Breen, 3x ATVx Trans, 9 Weapon, 9 Projectile...
Add in OWT on Holo, and you'd be looking at ~1842.1 damage. 82% to hull for 1510.5 damage...times 16 for 24168 damage.
On Tribble, go the Shearing route; you'd be looking at ~1783.0 damage...82% hitting hull for ~1462.1 damage...times 16 for 23393.6 damage. Add in 3x Shearing off of that ~1462.1, 584.84 * 3 = ~1754.5 and add that to 23393.6 for 25148.1 damage.
It's still an increase in damage. The more you buff up - the better Shearing gets compared to how it is on Holo.
But yeah, it's pretty easy to see the issue you're describing even though it's a buff for both torps and mines...it's a nerf when both toprs and mines are used. Which is probably part of where Hawk decided to take a look at the stack limit. Cause you add in mines to torps or add in torps to mines...and you lose out.
But then again, he also said that bit about trying to get away from folks running the projectile builds, eh? Meh...
Something else to consider is that in any case - it's a PvP nerf. Whether you're looking at the SDoT being cleansed by ST, HE, or WCE...there's also the case that it's a DoT and all the passive heal procs that means can triggered...meh.
Why? I tend to run 6-7 Torps...no Mines. Every now and again, I might work a single Mine launcher in to the process. Mines generally get obliterated and tend to be a loss of damage outside of certain scenarios. Carrying two of them with the lockout? There's also working in the possible DPA/DPB...which is also going to cause further damage loss issues. It's one of the reasons why in that earlier post I did...I didn't even think about mines.
It is useless for hybrid builds with 1-2 Torpedo Launchers since CrtH/CrtD traits will be far more benefiting... and I don't see captain sacrificing trait slot for single torpedo launcher.
Stacking limit is also limiting number of possible users to 1/10 of people who still use torps/mines. Rest of them will simply choice other traits, because bonus projectiles damage given by OKS will negligible.
Also, please remember how easy to remove this DoT is. There is no ship without either Science Team or Hazard Emitters, while many ships run them both.
A few things from my perspective.
1) Projectile focused builds already are viable. They work best on specific ships but so does everything.
2) The reasons players don't mix energy and projectile weapons are many. But to sum it up with the way STO mechanics work you are much better off pushing one thing to the extreme than you are diversifying. This applies to nearly everything in STO from tanking methods to damage output. If you really want to encourage a mix release new tactical consoles that provide +32% specific energy and +15% generic torpedo.
3) Because it is a DoT effect, and easily cleared in PvP, the odds of it becoming an absurd spike damage booster are slim.
My suggestion is to change it to deal the damage five or six seconds after it is applied similar to the radiation torpedo. Then remove the stack limit and allow it to calculate a reduced amount of damage from the total damage instead of just the hull damage.
Basically, two torps came to mind.
Ferengi Rapid vs. Transphasic
You're looking at some hefty extremes there, eh?
Course, in thinking about it - can't help but wonder why some form of normalized shearing isn't simply added to projectiles at their core...and that this particular Rep Trait could be something else related to fighting the Borg.
Some of those listed do not work as they state in tool tips(naussican boffs, hargh'peng is an utter joke, BO doffs aren't really good with a ship designed around pure cannon use, and most of those other torps are 95% negated or higher with 1 shield point on the facing) and then other factor is the shields will absorb most of the damage from them. The point to where torps are ineffective to shields was the whole point which whole reason you don't see people using that EBC mode.
However though the b'rel itself is a touchy subject because people start crying and whining every time someone mentions the idea of it being used like its advertised because then they would have to put a hull heal on when all they want to do is counter it with distributing shields either manually or with tactical team. As well unless they do like drunk guy said it won't add up to a hill of beans because you can have all the torp damage consoles in the world but only about 5% to 0% of the damage will actually occur. So they either need to reduce the damage torps do to shields, or either something special to the b'rel where it can gain shield pentration. Although the track record with the KDF is that if we do get something its just a gimmick(bortasqu') or nostalgia/collectors item(b'rel and other canon klingon ships that are available in game but nothing much special about them other than boff stations).
Hrmmm...?
Er...yeah they do. What issue are you seeing?
Pirate does two things. +Damage and a non-stacking buff to Starship Stealth (the skill). Both the Damage and +75 Stealth Value (1 Starship Stealth = 0.5 Stealth Value) are working.
You base that on...?
Pure cannon use? On a ship without cannons? It's a torp boat. The EWO Penetration buff from the BO from the OD AP Beam Turret applies to all attacks...including torps. So, you flank decloak - BO - EWO procs...more damage hits hull - greater damage from shearing.
That's a lie that's constantly told for some reason. It's not the way it works. And again, did you completely ignore the EWO DOFF(s)...?
Hello? 360 arc beam turret...BO...EWO Penetration DOFF(s)...
EBC allows you to do far more than just fire torps while cloaked.
If you reduce the shield damage reduction, you have to reduce the damage as well. Torp damage is balanced around that shield damage reduction.
HY3 Quants w/ 0 Tac consoles will hit hull harder than a BO3 w/ 5 Tac consoles.
BO3 w/ 0 Tac consoles will hit shields harder than HY3 Quants w/ 5 Tac consoles.
If you reduce the shield damage reduction and their damage...then there would be no reason to use projectiles - because rather than Energy being better for Shields and Kinetic being better for Hull, Energy would simply be better in both cases.
You could also keep track of all the DoTs and apply only the top three. Suppose we have four DoTs ordered from greatest to least as follows:
DoT1 > DoT2 > DoT3 > DoT4
Suppose the target is being damaged by DoT1, DoT2, and DoT3 when DoT4 hits. Instead of dropping DoT4, you could keep DoT4, but not apply it until one of the other DoTs expires.
This wording makes it sound as if the stacking limit is per attacker, not per target. Is this correct?
Simple, a flat torp damage bonus would only be a balance tweak that has absolutely no chance of adding in any new strategy or depth to the game. It's the safe options, as far as QA is concerned, but its also the more boring one.
Notable missions: Apex [AEI], Gemini [SSF], Trident [AEI], Evolution's Smile [SSF], Transcendence
Looking for something new to play? I've started building Foundry missions again in visual novel form!
This has been reported before, and it's probably a bug.
http://sto-forum.perfectworld.com/showthread.php?t=1058461
It's kind of rough, as pottsey5g pointed out...the sheer number of projectiles one could actually unload at a time (and thus the genuine complaint about it being a nerf for certain builds beyond even the Energy folks).
I didn't test it with the Breen Cluster. Did see that it didn't work with the Beachball. Don't remember if anybody mentioned testing it with the Shrapnel or Wide-Angle.
If it does work with the Cluster, well - you could technically build a DPB3, HY3, TS3, DPA1, Cluster, normal Torp, normal Mine...where you DPB, normal Mine, DPA, normal Mine, Cluster, fire off the HY/TS, and still have additional Torps on their way. As long as there wasn't anything dropping out some sort of AoE damage - that would be a Hell of a lot of projectiles itching to shear that Cryptic would need to track.
And they'd have to do it for each player doing it at any given moment...heh, ever done a projectilegasm run of CCE where almost everybody's just spewing torps and mines?
That's the way I read it - but when I was on, I didn't see anybody else...should have probably checked the Undine SBZ to see if anybody there had the Trait and could have looked at it...meh, but I don't like people - so I didn't think of it. :P
My suggestion was only meant to be an alternative they might consider. I'm not really attached to it.
Is the Beachball the Nukara Web Mines? I saw that the tooltip for Omega Kinetic Shearing said eiither "kinetic projectiles" or "kinetic torpedoes and mines" (I don't remember the exact wording). I've never seen that in a tooltip before; it would have been redundant before the web mines.
Oh, it was more of a general statement about the sheer number of projectiles one could potentially drop out - just food for thought for them if they hadn't thought of it. Heck, I hadn't really though of it until pottsey5g mentioned it.
Beachball...heh, it's the Destabilized Plasma Torpedo from the T'varo Retrofit. Big ol' red glowing ball of doom...it's a console torp instead of a weapon torp. So I wondered if any of the other console projectiles were affected by it or not.
Also it being countered by haz emitter seems like a huge nerf, science team i understand. But haz emitters already heal over time countering damage taken. There should be at least some dots, unaffected by this OP Hull heal/cleanse. This would improve the pressure damage this trait would give.
Honestly, as I mentioned earlier - I can't see why either should clear it. If there is to be a cleanse for it, shouldn't it be Engineering Team?
Ensign: Captain, the hull's shearing.
Captain: Send in the Scientists!
First Officer: Sir, shouldn't we send the Engineers?
Captain: Look, I know that makes sense...but that's just not the way it works.
This sounds like a sorry excuse for a de facto nerf of almost all the builds players actually field. Transphasic builds are sub par in PvE and this trait won't change it. I'd really like to see the "Transphasic PvE setup" that you mentioned btw. And please tell me the reason why anybody with the slightest knowledge of builds, skillpoint distribution and game mechanics would prefer a transpasic torp over a hyper plasma, omega plasma, gravimetric photon or even a good old quantum.
If it's your intention to buff torpedos, give them more bleedthru. Or replace Nukara T2 instead. Nobody needs additional shield penetration for NPCs.
STO-League.com | Weapon Damage Calculator | DPS Web Tools | STO-Center Forums