Janeway was under a LOT of stress because Voyager was stranded in the Delta Quadrant. She did what she had to most of the time to protect her ship and crew. Trading tech was kinda necessary as they had nothing else of value to trade for supplies, so they used easily replacable tech. Working with the Borg? I believe that falls under the lesser of two evils, as she sided with the evil she knew over the one she didn't in Species 8472. She had to pull a serious balancing act, as Voyager was cut off from any support whatsoever.
So... besides Sybok and "God" from ST5... I vote Voyager's writers.
one of starfleet regulations was never to trade technology especially with a people who dont know how to use it. and yet in later seasons janeway trades technology freely.. working with the borg is like selling your soul and suggesting to help the borg thereby altering the borg way meaning the prime directive was violated by interfering in another culture, then she became a traitor by getting involved in a borg conflict by supporting the borg which had nothing to do with starfleet or the federation, something she already planned on. call it what you will, but janeway broke two of the biggest regulations on the way and also almost let an enemy attack the federation because of it.
Janeway if she was in the right frame of mind should stayed well clear of the borg conflict, continued her travel for as long as she could then if the borg notice her ship, then suggest working out a minor deal and staying well clear of the 8472 and borg conflict. so it would of put a few extra years on her journey, but she would of at least showed the strength and iron that she will uphold starfleet regulations instead of caving in the first chance because she felt it was too hard for her to try.
T6 Miranda Hero Ship FTW. Been around since Dec 2010 on STO and bought LTS in Apr 2013 for STO.
(Now to be fair this might be me taking issue with the episode in general and how the ending was badly paced. Aliens just show up and take him away and back to their home with barely any explination or set up? )
But I found the character painful to watch on screen , nothing about the character was particularly enjoyable, not like a villain you love to hate, this guy was just irritating.
Some of the other characters mentioned here are also veering on the edge of justified existence, but I feel many of them aren't so much bad characters so much as badly written. Or rather inconsistently written, but then that happens when you have ancillary characters that are there to provide whatever the plot needs, rather than have their own properly developed character , and then they start getting their own focus episode where they act very differently
Also I would be tempted to say I would like to remove the pathetic shadow of the otherwise enjoyably evil Dukat that is the pah wraith obsessed Bajoran Dukat, I found those episodes very difficult to watch and enjoy, it all seemed like something out of a bad fantasy genre, and felt out of place in the rest of Star Trek
I would honestly prefer that character to have been killed off rather than become what he did
These are the Voyages on the STO forum, the final frontier. Our continuing mission: to explore Pretentious Posts, to seek out new Overreactions and Misinformation , to boldly experience Cynicism like no man has before.......
(Now to be fair this might be me taking issue with the episode in general and how the ending was badly paced. Aliens just show up and take him away and back to their home with barely any explination or set up? )
But I found the character painful to watch on screen , nothing about the character was particularly enjoyable, not like a villain you love to hate, this guy was just irritating.
Totally understand, and I was about to defend the character by saying he was simply poorly acted, when I realised - This was supposed to be someone who had grown up with very little, and certainly no recent contact with others of his species. He would have no social skills, and behave in a way which in modern times, would be characterised as Aspergers, or something else on the autistic spectrum... So bearing that in mind, I would have to say, Charlie was actually very well portrayed, just somewhat poorly written, and constrained by the genre/TV guidelines. Had that not been an episode, but an 18/R-Rated movie, they could've gone into a lot more depth, and shown some really disturbing stuff, and probably a much more compelling character :cool:
Totally understand, and I was about to defend the character by saying he was simply poorly acted, when I realised - This was supposed to be someone who had grown up with very little, and certainly no recent contact with others of his species. He would have no social skills, and behave in a way which in modern times, would be characterised as Aspergers, or something else on the autistic spectrum... So bearing that in mind, I would have to say, Charlie was actually very well portrayed, just somewhat poorly written, and constrained by the genre/TV guidelines. Had that not been an episode, but an 18/R-Rated movie, they could've gone into a lot more depth, and shown some really disturbing stuff, and probably a much more compelling character :cool:
I also think a little more time to flesh out the story more would have done wonders for the story, it felt cut short perhaps, like there was more to happen. (Much like recent episodes of Dr Who in my opinion, good but concluded too quickly to allow meaningful stories to progress )
theres a lot of potential in it though , and yeah, it think giving it a bit of a darker theme as you suggest might make it possible to really deepen the character
These are the Voyages on the STO forum, the final frontier. Our continuing mission: to explore Pretentious Posts, to seek out new Overreactions and Misinformation , to boldly experience Cynicism like no man has before.......
I also think a little more time to flesh out the story more would have done wonders for the story, it felt cut short perhaps, like there was more to happen. (Much like recent episodes of Dr Who in my opinion, good but concluded too quickly to allow meaningful stories to progress )
theres a lot of potential in it though , and yeah, it think giving it a bit of a darker theme as you suggest might make it possible to really deepen the character
Absolutely... :cool: I know they didn't really go in for feature length episodes back in the day, but had this been done as a two-parter, or even had Charlie as a bit older and the villain for a movie, I think the potential was there to be explored... Not to disagree with your observation of Charlie being irritating, I just think there were too many factors to let him be used to his full potential, if that makes sense?
You guys are going to beat me up for this... I just know it.
Captain James T. Kirk
He was an egomaniac, sexist, blew up every computer, and tore a path of destruction across the alpha quadrant. His son in WoK called him a "space cowboy"? I never liked Kirk as a commanding role. I guess you can fire those flaming arrows at me now.
0
rattler2Member, Star Trek Online ModeratorPosts: 58,565Community Moderator
one of starfleet regulations was never to trade technology especially with a people who dont know how to use it. and yet in later seasons janeway trades technology freely.. working with the borg is like selling your soul and suggesting to help the borg thereby altering the borg way meaning the prime directive was violated by interfering in another culture, then she became a traitor by getting involved in a borg conflict by supporting the borg which had nothing to do with starfleet or the federation, something she already planned on. call it what you will, but janeway broke two of the biggest regulations on the way and also almost let an enemy attack the federation because of it.
Janeway if she was in the right frame of mind should stayed well clear of the borg conflict, continued her travel for as long as she could then if the borg notice her ship, then suggest working out a minor deal and staying well clear of the 8472 and borg conflict. so it would of put a few extra years on her journey, but she would of at least showed the strength and iron that she will uphold starfleet regulations instead of caving in the first chance because she felt it was too hard for her to try.
The only "Safe" corridor through Borg space was swarming with Undine. And the rest of Borg space was swarming with Borg. Going around was not an option due to the sheer size of Borg territory, and going through meant it was only a matter of time before they were spotted, which would have been pretty quick. Basically... Kobayashi Maru. She gave her crew a fighting chance, even if they got backstabbed later on.
And like I said, they had nothing else of value to trade for supplies. There were no Starfleet Regulations that covered being stranded in uncharted space. Trade was a viable option for getting supplies. I don't remember Janeway trading Phasers and Photon Torpedoes, which would have been a stupid move, but trading smaller pieces of tech was an option in order to survive. When you don't know the local economy... how do you get the supplies you need? You offer something to trade.
Despite the writing... Janeway did what she had to within reason for Voyager to survive. If anyone should have been smacked with a Dishonorable Discharge, it was the captain of the Equinox. Killing aliens to boost the warp drive? Oh no... Janeway tore him a new one for that.
You can argue about Starfleet Regulations all you want, but you gotta remember the situation. Stranded at least 70 years from the nearest starbase, cut off and alone in the lawless Delta Quadrant... you're gonna have to bend the rules to survive. If they stayed rigid with the Regs... Voyager might not have even made it as far as they did. Hell... might not have even gotten away from the Kazon.
Pulaski was a weak attempt, character-wise, to duplicae the success the Original Series and Movies had with McCoy in the role of grouchy country doctor who didn't like technology. The problem was that Bones was a grouchy country doctor, he just happened to end up in Starfleet later on in life, and for all his complaining at Spock, there was never any real malice, more like annoyance that someone who was half-human could be so out of touch with their human side. Pulaski, on the other hand, constantly insulted the ship's second officer from the very first day she was on board, turned most of the crew against herself, and the only reason that Worf ever actually cut her some slack involved the fact that she lied to help him save face about having a Klingon version of the chicken pox or whatever it was.
Janeway, I'm sorry, any respect she might have had from me early on in the series disappeared with the episode "Tuvix" - by permitting Tuvix to hold the rank of Lieutenant Commander, she effectively recognised him as a Starfleet Officer, the ship's Doctor recognised Tuvix as an independant and sentient free being... but just because Janeway wants her friend back (and Kes her 'boyfriend'), she kills him by forcibly putting him through the seperation procedure DESPITE the fact that The Doctor has already refused to do so. Really, they never even gave Tuvix a chance, they had already made their decision from day one that Tuvix had to go so Neelix and Tuvok could come back without even taking the time to get to know Tuvix himself. What makes it even worse, though, is all the officers and crew aboard Voyager who just stood by when Janeway marched him down to Sickbay to undergo the seperation procedure and let her do it instead of standing up and saying "This is wrong."
"If you can't take a little bloody nose, maybe you ought to go back home and crawl under your bed. It's not safe out here. It's wondrous, with treasures to satiate desires both subtle and gross; but it's not for the timid." -- Q, TNG: "Q-Who?"
^Words that every player should keep in mind, especially whenever there's a problem with the game...
The only "Safe" corridor through Borg space was swarming with Undine. And the rest of Borg space was swarming with Borg. Going around was not an option due to the sheer size of Borg territory, and going through meant it was only a matter of time before they were spotted, which would have been pretty quick. Basically... Kobayashi Maru. She gave her crew a fighting chance, even if they got backstabbed later on.
Oh, please. It is not remotely similar to a Kobayashi Maru scenario, because there are multiple other perfectly valid options available.
If she had to go through Borg space (the only reason given for this is because she doesn't want to spend a few extra years in the quadrant), her options are either steer clear of the Borg/Undine conflict altogether -- notice they are perfectly capable of detecting Borg and Undine vessels from multiple light-years away, and that both sides are a little busy killing and dying to worry about one lone starship wandering past -- or attempt diplomatic contact with the Undine per regulations cited in a later episode. I have already pointed out numerous times that helping the Borg comprises treason and war crimes and why this is so. It's not simply a matter of rules and regs, it's also a matter of common sense (or lack thereof) and basic morality. The blood of every single person killed by the Borg after stardate 50984.3 is on the hands of Janeway, and on the hands of the Voyager crew for not relieving her of command.
"Great War! / And I cannot take more! / Great tour! / I keep on marching on / I play the great score / There will be no encore / Great War! / The War to End All Wars"
— Sabaton, "Great War"
and on the hands of the Voyager crew for not relieving her of command.
And there's the real problem with Voyager, even if half the crew were Maquis, the other half were still Starfleet Officers, why did they let Janeway get away with so much of the stuff she did that they KNEW were violations of Starfleet Regulations.
For crying out loud, there was such a big problem early on with Seska giving away Federation technology, that sting operation involving Paris meant to discover who it was, the resulting alliance between Seska and Maje Cullah that nearly ended with the Kazon taking Voyager... and then, just a couple years later, Janeway's the one giving away Federation technology (to the Hirogen, to Species 8472, etc...) and no one stops and says "Hey, wait, why was this wrong for Seska to do, but it's okay for the Captain to do it?"
"If you can't take a little bloody nose, maybe you ought to go back home and crawl under your bed. It's not safe out here. It's wondrous, with treasures to satiate desires both subtle and gross; but it's not for the timid." -- Q, TNG: "Q-Who?"
^Words that every player should keep in mind, especially whenever there's a problem with the game...
Honestly, what were Archer's qualifications for being Captain of the NX-Enterprise? Piloting ability - nope, because Robinson or Duvall could've had the job just as easily, and Ensign Mayweather flew the ship anyway. Diplomatic skill - the only reason he ever showed diplomacy was when Daniels bribed him with the thought that if he played well with others, he could become famous by helping found the 'Federation' Daniels talked about. As near as I can tell, the only reason Archer got the captain's chair was because his father helped design the ship's warp engine. Hardly sterling qualifications.
"If you can't take a little bloody nose, maybe you ought to go back home and crawl under your bed. It's not safe out here. It's wondrous, with treasures to satiate desires both subtle and gross; but it's not for the timid." -- Q, TNG: "Q-Who?"
^Words that every player should keep in mind, especially whenever there's a problem with the game...
Honestly, what were Archer's qualifications for being Captain of the NX-Enterprise? Piloting ability - nope, because Robinson or Duvall could've had the job just as easily, and Ensign Mayweather flew the ship anyway. Diplomatic skill - the only reason he ever showed diplomacy was when Daniels bribed him with the thought that if he played well with others, he could become famous by helping found the 'Federation' Daniels talked about. As near as I can tell, the only reason Archer got the captain's chair was because his father helped design the ship's warp engine. Hardly sterling qualifications.
Still Cannon in BOTH universes though - thanks J.J. - it was the only thing you did right. LOL
The only "Safe" corridor through Borg space was swarming with Undine. And the rest of Borg space was swarming with Borg. Going around was not an option due to the sheer size of Borg territory, and going through meant it was only a matter of time before they were spotted, which would have been pretty quick. Basically... Kobayashi Maru. She gave her crew a fighting chance, even if they got backstabbed later on.
And like I said, they had nothing else of value to trade for supplies. There were no Starfleet Regulations that covered being stranded in uncharted space. Trade was a viable option for getting supplies. I don't remember Janeway trading Phasers and Photon Torpedoes, which would have been a stupid move, but trading smaller pieces of tech was an option in order to survive. When you don't know the local economy... how do you get the supplies you need? You offer something to trade.
Despite the writing... Janeway did what she had to within reason for Voyager to survive. If anyone should have been smacked with a Dishonorable Discharge, it was the captain of the Equinox. Killing aliens to boost the warp drive? Oh no... Janeway tore him a new one for that.
You can argue about Starfleet Regulations all you want, but you gotta remember the situation. Stranded at least 70 years from the nearest starbase, cut off and alone in the lawless Delta Quadrant... you're gonna have to bend the rules to survive. If they stayed rigid with the Regs... Voyager might not have even made it as far as they did. Hell... might not have even gotten away from the Kazon.
Janeway was obsessed with getting Voyager back home. So obsessed that she didn't even care how many sentient beings got killed in order for her to get home. And if she did follow regulations then it would maybe take another few years to get home and less people would have been killed.
Absolutely... :cool: I know they didn't really go in for feature length episodes back in the day, but had this been done as a two-parter, or even had Charlie as a bit older and the villain for a movie, I think the potential was there to be explored... Not to disagree with your observation of Charlie being irritating, I just think there were too many factors to let him be used to his full potential, if that makes sense?
yeah i think thats a fair judgement. Also i must admit it was a nice opertunity for the crew to do a bit of psychology , I might have to rewatch it and see if it grows on me
These are the Voyages on the STO forum, the final frontier. Our continuing mission: to explore Pretentious Posts, to seek out new Overreactions and Misinformation , to boldly experience Cynicism like no man has before.......
yeah i think thats a fair judgement. Also i must admit it was a nice opertunity for the crew to do a bit of psychology , I might have to rewatch it and see if it grows on me
It would've been interesting if they had had a trained psychologist on the crew (Like Dr McKenna in Star Trek Continues) as to how that might've altered their treatment of Charlie
How has nobody mentioned Chakotay yet? All these other characters had some kind of personality or writing or something, but Chakotay wasn't anything. When he wasn't so bland that vanilla ice cream found him dull, he was as flat a Magical Native American stereotype as possible, and even the actor hated him. If Chakotay simply vanished one day, would anyone have even noticed? And this guy was supposed to be the First Officer, putting him in the same category with Spock and Riker and Kira/Worf? Thats just sad.
Comments
Maje Cullah of the Kazon Nistrim?
Been around since Dec 2010 on STO and bought LTS in Apr 2013 for STO.
one of starfleet regulations was never to trade technology especially with a people who dont know how to use it. and yet in later seasons janeway trades technology freely.. working with the borg is like selling your soul and suggesting to help the borg thereby altering the borg way meaning the prime directive was violated by interfering in another culture, then she became a traitor by getting involved in a borg conflict by supporting the borg which had nothing to do with starfleet or the federation, something she already planned on. call it what you will, but janeway broke two of the biggest regulations on the way and also almost let an enemy attack the federation because of it.
Janeway if she was in the right frame of mind should stayed well clear of the borg conflict, continued her travel for as long as she could then if the borg notice her ship, then suggest working out a minor deal and staying well clear of the 8472 and borg conflict. so it would of put a few extra years on her journey, but she would of at least showed the strength and iron that she will uphold starfleet regulations instead of caving in the first chance because she felt it was too hard for her to try.
Been around since Dec 2010 on STO and bought LTS in Apr 2013 for STO.
Mesa no thinking yousa like Neelix!
Mesa agrees.
From what I've seen so far I think we can have a vote for the worst character.
If you vote Janeway for worst then post it.
If you vote Neelix for worst then post it also.
It can be no others. They made Wesley Crusher look like Sean Connery.
Icheb: "Oh look at me. I wrote a paper on Cpt Kirk so the veiwers at home can like me."
Niaomi: "Yay!!! Lets go show Neelix! Maybe he'll let us all play Space Connect 4!!!"
*Ensign Nobody from Environmental (an ex Maquis) adjusts his collar and hovers a finger over a tricorder button marked 'Vent Atmosphere'"
(Now to be fair this might be me taking issue with the episode in general and how the ending was badly paced. Aliens just show up and take him away and back to their home with barely any explination or set up? )
But I found the character painful to watch on screen , nothing about the character was particularly enjoyable, not like a villain you love to hate, this guy was just irritating.
Some of the other characters mentioned here are also veering on the edge of justified existence, but I feel many of them aren't so much bad characters so much as badly written. Or rather inconsistently written, but then that happens when you have ancillary characters that are there to provide whatever the plot needs, rather than have their own properly developed character , and then they start getting their own focus episode where they act very differently
Also I would be tempted to say I would like to remove the pathetic shadow of the otherwise enjoyably evil Dukat that is the pah wraith obsessed Bajoran Dukat, I found those episodes very difficult to watch and enjoy, it all seemed like something out of a bad fantasy genre, and felt out of place in the rest of Star Trek
I would honestly prefer that character to have been killed off rather than become what he did
I also think a little more time to flesh out the story more would have done wonders for the story, it felt cut short perhaps, like there was more to happen. (Much like recent episodes of Dr Who in my opinion, good but concluded too quickly to allow meaningful stories to progress )
theres a lot of potential in it though , and yeah, it think giving it a bit of a darker theme as you suggest might make it possible to really deepen the character
Absolutely... :cool: I know they didn't really go in for feature length episodes back in the day, but had this been done as a two-parter, or even had Charlie as a bit older and the villain for a movie, I think the potential was there to be explored... Not to disagree with your observation of Charlie being irritating, I just think there were too many factors to let him be used to his full potential, if that makes sense?
Captain James T. Kirk
He was an egomaniac, sexist, blew up every computer, and tore a path of destruction across the alpha quadrant. His son in WoK called him a "space cowboy"? I never liked Kirk as a commanding role. I guess you can fire those flaming arrows at me now.
The only "Safe" corridor through Borg space was swarming with Undine. And the rest of Borg space was swarming with Borg. Going around was not an option due to the sheer size of Borg territory, and going through meant it was only a matter of time before they were spotted, which would have been pretty quick. Basically... Kobayashi Maru. She gave her crew a fighting chance, even if they got backstabbed later on.
And like I said, they had nothing else of value to trade for supplies. There were no Starfleet Regulations that covered being stranded in uncharted space. Trade was a viable option for getting supplies. I don't remember Janeway trading Phasers and Photon Torpedoes, which would have been a stupid move, but trading smaller pieces of tech was an option in order to survive. When you don't know the local economy... how do you get the supplies you need? You offer something to trade.
Despite the writing... Janeway did what she had to within reason for Voyager to survive. If anyone should have been smacked with a Dishonorable Discharge, it was the captain of the Equinox. Killing aliens to boost the warp drive? Oh no... Janeway tore him a new one for that.
You can argue about Starfleet Regulations all you want, but you gotta remember the situation. Stranded at least 70 years from the nearest starbase, cut off and alone in the lawless Delta Quadrant... you're gonna have to bend the rules to survive. If they stayed rigid with the Regs... Voyager might not have even made it as far as they did. Hell... might not have even gotten away from the Kazon.
... she only nerved everytime when visited TNG ... i hate her all the time ... she is number 1 for the worst ST Character
Pulaski was a weak attempt, character-wise, to duplicae the success the Original Series and Movies had with McCoy in the role of grouchy country doctor who didn't like technology. The problem was that Bones was a grouchy country doctor, he just happened to end up in Starfleet later on in life, and for all his complaining at Spock, there was never any real malice, more like annoyance that someone who was half-human could be so out of touch with their human side. Pulaski, on the other hand, constantly insulted the ship's second officer from the very first day she was on board, turned most of the crew against herself, and the only reason that Worf ever actually cut her some slack involved the fact that she lied to help him save face about having a Klingon version of the chicken pox or whatever it was.
Janeway, I'm sorry, any respect she might have had from me early on in the series disappeared with the episode "Tuvix" - by permitting Tuvix to hold the rank of Lieutenant Commander, she effectively recognised him as a Starfleet Officer, the ship's Doctor recognised Tuvix as an independant and sentient free being... but just because Janeway wants her friend back (and Kes her 'boyfriend'), she kills him by forcibly putting him through the seperation procedure DESPITE the fact that The Doctor has already refused to do so. Really, they never even gave Tuvix a chance, they had already made their decision from day one that Tuvix had to go so Neelix and Tuvok could come back without even taking the time to get to know Tuvix himself. What makes it even worse, though, is all the officers and crew aboard Voyager who just stood by when Janeway marched him down to Sickbay to undergo the seperation procedure and let her do it instead of standing up and saying "This is wrong."
^Words that every player should keep in mind, especially whenever there's a problem with the game...
Oh, please. It is not remotely similar to a Kobayashi Maru scenario, because there are multiple other perfectly valid options available.
If she had to go through Borg space (the only reason given for this is because she doesn't want to spend a few extra years in the quadrant), her options are either steer clear of the Borg/Undine conflict altogether -- notice they are perfectly capable of detecting Borg and Undine vessels from multiple light-years away, and that both sides are a little busy killing and dying to worry about one lone starship wandering past -- or attempt diplomatic contact with the Undine per regulations cited in a later episode. I have already pointed out numerous times that helping the Borg comprises treason and war crimes and why this is so. It's not simply a matter of rules and regs, it's also a matter of common sense (or lack thereof) and basic morality. The blood of every single person killed by the Borg after stardate 50984.3 is on the hands of Janeway, and on the hands of the Voyager crew for not relieving her of command.
— Sabaton, "Great War"
Check out https://unitedfederationofpla.net/s/
And there's the real problem with Voyager, even if half the crew were Maquis, the other half were still Starfleet Officers, why did they let Janeway get away with so much of the stuff she did that they KNEW were violations of Starfleet Regulations.
For crying out loud, there was such a big problem early on with Seska giving away Federation technology, that sting operation involving Paris meant to discover who it was, the resulting alliance between Seska and Maje Cullah that nearly ended with the Kazon taking Voyager... and then, just a couple years later, Janeway's the one giving away Federation technology (to the Hirogen, to Species 8472, etc...) and no one stops and says "Hey, wait, why was this wrong for Seska to do, but it's okay for the Captain to do it?"
^Words that every player should keep in mind, especially whenever there's a problem with the game...
See, just the opposite for me. Archer was an adequately written character. Scott Bakula just butchered the role.
No he wasn't. Bakula or no, he was Captain Whiny Crazypants.
^Words that every player should keep in mind, especially whenever there's a problem with the game...
Still Cannon in BOTH universes though - thanks J.J. - it was the only thing you did right. LOL
Janeway was obsessed with getting Voyager back home. So obsessed that she didn't even care how many sentient beings got killed in order for her to get home. And if she did follow regulations then it would maybe take another few years to get home and less people would have been killed.
Then....keep seven in a safe place.
No, in undiscovered country the wort was General Chang. He just wouldn't shut up with Shakespeare .
yeah i think thats a fair judgement. Also i must admit it was a nice opertunity for the crew to do a bit of psychology , I might have to rewatch it and see if it grows on me
It would've been interesting if they had had a trained psychologist on the crew (Like Dr McKenna in Star Trek Continues) as to how that might've altered their treatment of Charlie
It gave him character. Valeris on the other hand...it could have just been the actress - the role being poorly cast.