Isn't Oppression and Subjugation part of the Starfleet code of ethics?
thats not the point. the point is that janeway violated the prime directive by in effect giving away technology to the hirogen then further interfering in their culture by taking point persecuting these holograms besides the hirogen converting the technology into an incidental bloodbath of their race. one of the founding principles of the federation is tolerance and understand and shes already ignored those, then directly impacting another culture.
T6 Miranda Hero Ship FTW. Been around since Dec 2010 on STO and bought LTS in Apr 2013 for STO.
I'm surprised no one has mentioned Sybok yet. Have you all erased Star Trek V from your minds?
Tried to...along with The Motion Picture.
Haven't quite succeeded yet.
My Old Blog about things that could and should have been added when I wrote it. Not sure what I want to do with it now. I'll just keep it available now that most of it is outdated.
What really set me off about Janeway was when she helped the Hirogen hunt down the holograms that were trying to escape from a life of being abused and tortured. That action to me is what every Starfleet captain should be trained not to do.
For me, it's a combination of:
1) Killing Tuvix because she liked Tuvok and Neelix (well, mostly Tuvok) better.
2) Negotiating with the Borg to help them develop weapons technology which would allow them to assimilate Species 8472 (BEFORE she knew how evil 8472 were).
3) Preparing to torture a member of Captain Ransom's crew for information.
Your not alone on Kai Winn. With her you have to remember that she was supposed to be a character that everyone hated. I can't even think of any of the people on the entire station that liked her.
I would argue that Kai Winn may be loathsome, but she's a wonderful character, and thus wouldn't qualify as "the worst."
...talking to players is like being a mall Santa. Everyone immediately wants to tell you all of the things they want, and you are absolutely powerless to deliver 99% of them.
1) Killing Tuvix because she liked Tuvok and Neelix (well, mostly Tuvok) better.
2) Negotiating with the Borg to help them develop weapons technology which would allow them to assimilate Species 8472 (BEFORE she knew how evil 8472 were).
3) Preparing to torture a member of Captain Ransom's crew for information.
I would argue that Kai Winn may be loathsome, but she's a wonderful character, and thus wouldn't qualify as "the worst."
Agreed with all of this.
Janeway is guilty of negligent genocide, attempted genocide as a hate crime, murder in the first degree, about 100,000 counts of Conduct Unbecoming, and at least two Geneva Convention violations. Edit: Plus high treason and aiding the enemy.
Kai Winn is fun to hate, like Hakeev. Like the Borg Queen (although the Borg Queen is sexier).
Janeway is guilty of negligent genocide, attempted genocide as a hate crime, murder in the first degree, about 100,000 counts of Conduct Unbecoming, and at least two Geneva Convention violations.
Kai Winn is fun to hate, like Hakeev. Like the Borg Queen (although the Borg Queen is sexier).
Yup... But Admiral Janeway, aka The Silver Fox, had a pair of Brass Balls, and strikes me as the sort who would post suggestive selfless on Spacebook to lure in young officers in need of a career boost
Yup... But Admiral Janeway, aka The Silver Fox, had a pair of Brass Balls, and strikes me as the sort who would post suggestive selfless on Spacebook to lure in young officers in need of a career boost
Like Alynna Nechayev...:rolleyes:
My pet theory is that Nechayev tried to sex up Picard when they were both at the Academy, Picard refused her, and she hated him ever since...
Not just because I recently watched some horrible episodes of Voyager. Mrs. Columbo aka Kathrine Janeway is my #1 WORST character.
Just for starters I will say even if you did like the character, the actress was horrible. This has nothing to do with her being a female Captain. Gene wanted his wife to be Captain she was first officer in the pilot that later aired as a two part episode. I believe she would have made a great captain but the CBS suits didn't allow it. I have always been pro for having a good female actress as captain. Instead we got Kate Mulgrew who cannot act her way out of the paper bag. They could place a standee up on the bridge it would have far more depth.
Now as to her character. She did a lot of questionable acts, one of which was killing Tuvix that generated a lot of heat early on in the show. There was a few episodes of Voyager that was good viewing but lacked or had an absence of Janeway. Rare episodes like; Latent Image that focused on the Doctor, Blink of an Eye where most of the story is about a planet in hyper time, and One focused on Seven and the Doctor pilot the ship through a toxic region of space.
I have NO doubt she "would of, should of, could of" been court-martialed as soon as she got back to Earth. She was a cold heartless killer, the kind of person who opened fire on aliens instead of talking to them.
Not familiar with that term, but Admiral Nechayev always strikes me as being much like a more promiscuous version of Navani Kholin (a character from Brandon Sanderson's Stormlight Archive books).
I have NO doubt she "would of, should of, could of" been court-martialed as soon as she got back to Earth. She was a cold heartless killer, the kind of person who opened fire on aliens instead of talking to them.
Totally agree. Personally, I view her promotion in Nemesis as a sideways transfer so command could keep an eye on her, and her desk probably hid the tracking anklet she had to wear
Not familiar with that term, but Admiral Nechayev always strikes me as being much like a more promiscuous version of Navani Kholin (a character from Brandon Sanderson's Stormlight Archive books).
:eek: Google will explain... But yeah, she definitely struck me as having a taste for younger meat (hence why Picard was now not worthy of her attention... )
:eek: Google will explain... But yeah, she definitely struck me as having a taste for younger meat (hence why Picard was now not worthy of her attention... )
Uh, OK...
*hits Google*
EDIT: Whoah...
Um. Marcus?
Too many TRIBBLE ads suddenly popped up.
You should probably warn people if something's NSFW...
Well, sure, but those are written down; I am constrained by the limits of my imagination when I write Three. Admittedly, that imagination came up with Three doing stuff like...um, what she was doing at the start of my LC 59 entry, but it's still got SOME limits.
Well, sure, but those are written down; I am constrained by the limits of my imagination when I write Three. Admittedly, that imagination came up with Three doing stuff like...um, what she was doing at the start of my LC 59 entry, but it's still got SOME limits.
But that still comes from your imagination... Attractive older women are just a fact of life :cool:
Janeway had plenty of flaws, but that doesn't automatically make her a bad character.
People are sometimes inconsistent, manic, depressed, and otherwise emotionally compromised- and I think it's interesting for Janeway to represent those states, especially as a Starship captain who's responsible for stranding her crew in the Delta quadrant.
Kate Mulgrew played the role wonderfully, and Janeway was a more nuanced character than many of you are giving her credit for. Yes- the writing on Voyager did a poor job exposing the flaws they wrote into the character, but they did occasionally touch on them with a lot of success. With slightly better writing, Janeway could've been developed into one of the most detailed and interesting characters in Trek history, even with her questionable actions.
In general, Voyager would've been a so much better show if the writers had just been a little bit more willing to go a touch darker.
Janeway had plenty of flaws, but that doesn't automatically make her a bad character.
People are sometimes inconsistent, manic, depressed, and otherwise emotionally compromised- and I think it's interesting for Janeway to represent those states, especially as a Starship captain who's responsible for stranding her crew in the Delta quadrant.
Kate Mulgrew played the role wonderfully, and Janeway was a more nuanced character than many of you are giving her credit for. Yes- the writing on Voyager did a poor job exposing the flaws they wrote into the character, but they did occasionally touch on them with a lot of success. With slightly better writing, Janeway could've been developed into one of the most detailed and interesting characters in Trek history, even with her questionable actions.
In general, Voyager would've been a so much better show if the writers had just been a little bit more willing to go a touch darker.
Absolutely, I think the writing/writers were the biggest problem with Voyager, and because they wrote the series so it could be showed out of order, rather than building up a nice ongoing arc :cool:
Janeway had plenty of flaws, but that doesn't automatically make her a bad character.
People are sometimes inconsistent, manic, depressed, and otherwise emotionally compromised- and I think it's interesting for Janeway to represent those states, especially as a Starship captain who's responsible for stranding her crew in the Delta quadrant.
Kate Mulgrew played the role wonderfully, and Janeway was a more nuanced character than many of you are giving her credit for. Yes- the writing on Voyager did a poor job exposing the flaws they wrote into the character, but they did occasionally touch on them with a lot of success. With slightly better writing, Janeway could've been developed into one of the most detailed and interesting characters in Trek history, even with her questionable actions.
In general, Voyager would've been a so much better show if the writers had just been a little bit more willing to go a touch darker.
You're right - people are sometimes inconsistent, and all the other things you listed. But I think it's absurd to assume that Janeway's inconsistent characterization was in any way deliberate. The show's writers could have gone down that road, and it could even have been interesting, but that's not the approach they elected to take. Instead, no matter what insane, ridiculous thing they had Janeway decide to do, they inevitably portrayed her actions as having been correct, and free of consequences. That's not nuanced portrayal of a complex character - that's bad writing.
I do agree, though, that Mulgrew was a fine actress, and did what she could with the role.
...talking to players is like being a mall Santa. Everyone immediately wants to tell you all of the things they want, and you are absolutely powerless to deliver 99% of them.
Janeway is guilty of negligent genocide, attempted genocide as a hate crime, murder in the first degree, about 100,000 counts of Conduct Unbecoming, and at least two Geneva Convention violations.
And again, you forgot "treason".
"Great War! / And I cannot take more! / Great tour! / I keep on marching on / I play the great score / There will be no encore / Great War! / The War to End All Wars"
— Sabaton, "Great War"
Janeway had plenty of flaws, but that doesn't automatically make her a bad character.
People are sometimes inconsistent, manic, depressed, and otherwise emotionally compromised- and I think it's interesting for Janeway to represent those states, especially as a Starship captain who's responsible for stranding her crew in the Delta quadrant.
Kate Mulgrew played the role wonderfully, and Janeway was a more nuanced character than many of you are giving her credit for. Yes- the writing on Voyager did a poor job exposing the flaws they wrote into the character, but they did occasionally touch on them with a lot of success. With slightly better writing, Janeway could've been developed into one of the most detailed and interesting characters in Trek history, even with her questionable actions.
In general, Voyager would've been a so much better show if the writers had just been a little bit more willing to go a touch darker.
Janeway was calculated, deliberate and rode her emotions when she feels she abandoned her crew, going so far as to isolate herself and further causing damage to shipboard moral by failing to act. she was a danger to herself and with voyager she was a danger to everyone else. her flaws were the only things the writers had to go on, if it wasnt for other characters like neelix to be the most annoying one that others dont like, janeway would of been flung out the airlock faster then anything in history.
T6 Miranda Hero Ship FTW. Been around since Dec 2010 on STO and bought LTS in Apr 2013 for STO.
Data + emotion chip (as seen in ST:G) = the most painful viewing in all trekdom.
I'd rather watch a crew of Neelix clones than suffer Data and his chip.
...Oh, baby, you know, I've really got to leave you / Oh, I can hear it callin 'me / I said don't you hear it callin' me the way it used to do?...
- Anne Bredon
rattler2Member, Star Trek Online ModeratorPosts: 58,701Community Moderator
edited April 2014
Janeway was under a LOT of stress because Voyager was stranded in the Delta Quadrant. She did what she had to most of the time to protect her ship and crew. Trading tech was kinda necessary as they had nothing else of value to trade for supplies, so they used easily replacable tech. Working with the Borg? I believe that falls under the lesser of two evils, as she sided with the evil she knew over the one she didn't in Species 8472. She had to pull a serious balancing act, as Voyager was cut off from any support whatsoever.
So... besides Sybok and "God" from ST5... I vote Voyager's writers.
I can't take it anymore! Could everyone just chill out for two seconds before something CRAZY happens again?!
The nut who actually ground out many packs. The resident forum voice of reason (I HAZ FORUM REP! YAY!)
normal text = me speaking as fellow formite colored text = mod mode
Comments
thats not the point. the point is that janeway violated the prime directive by in effect giving away technology to the hirogen then further interfering in their culture by taking point persecuting these holograms besides the hirogen converting the technology into an incidental bloodbath of their race. one of the founding principles of the federation is tolerance and understand and shes already ignored those, then directly impacting another culture.
Been around since Dec 2010 on STO and bought LTS in Apr 2013 for STO.
Tried to...along with The Motion Picture.
Haven't quite succeeded yet.
For me, it's a combination of:
1) Killing Tuvix because she liked Tuvok and Neelix (well, mostly Tuvok) better.
2) Negotiating with the Borg to help them develop weapons technology which would allow them to assimilate Species 8472 (BEFORE she knew how evil 8472 were).
3) Preparing to torture a member of Captain Ransom's crew for information.
I would argue that Kai Winn may be loathsome, but she's a wonderful character, and thus wouldn't qualify as "the worst."
Agreed with all of this.
Janeway is guilty of negligent genocide, attempted genocide as a hate crime, murder in the first degree, about 100,000 counts of Conduct Unbecoming, and at least two Geneva Convention violations. Edit: Plus high treason and aiding the enemy.
Kai Winn is fun to hate, like Hakeev. Like the Borg Queen (although the Borg Queen is sexier).
Yup... But Admiral Janeway, aka The Silver Fox, had a pair of Brass Balls, and strikes me as the sort who would post suggestive selfless on Spacebook to lure in young officers in need of a career boost
Like Alynna Nechayev...:rolleyes:
My pet theory is that Nechayev tried to sex up Picard when they were both at the Academy, Picard refused her, and she hated him ever since...
Just for starters I will say even if you did like the character, the actress was horrible. This has nothing to do with her being a female Captain. Gene wanted his wife to be Captain she was first officer in the pilot that later aired as a two part episode. I believe she would have made a great captain but the CBS suits didn't allow it. I have always been pro for having a good female actress as captain. Instead we got Kate Mulgrew who cannot act her way out of the paper bag. They could place a standee up on the bridge it would have far more depth.
Now as to her character. She did a lot of questionable acts, one of which was killing Tuvix that generated a lot of heat early on in the show. There was a few episodes of Voyager that was good viewing but lacked or had an absence of Janeway. Rare episodes like; Latent Image that focused on the Doctor, Blink of an Eye where most of the story is about a planet in hyper time, and One focused on Seven and the Doctor pilot the ship through a toxic region of space.
I have NO doubt she "would of, should of, could of" been court-martialed as soon as she got back to Earth. She was a cold heartless killer, the kind of person who opened fire on aliens instead of talking to them.
Not familiar with that term, but Admiral Nechayev always strikes me as being much like a more promiscuous version of Navani Kholin (a character from Brandon Sanderson's Stormlight Archive books).
Totally agree. Personally, I view her promotion in Nemesis as a sideways transfer so command could keep an eye on her, and her desk probably hid the tracking anklet she had to wear
Uh, OK...
*hits Google*
EDIT: Whoah...
Um. Marcus?
Too many TRIBBLE ads suddenly popped up.
You should probably warn people if something's NSFW...
Web search for the definition would've worked, no need to click on images
JFC...
#ScarredForLife
Excuse me, I need to go wash out my brain...
That's nothing compared to Three's shenanigans
Well, sure, but those are written down; I am constrained by the limits of my imagination when I write Three. Admittedly, that imagination came up with Three doing stuff like...um, what she was doing at the start of my LC 59 entry, but it's still got SOME limits.
People are sometimes inconsistent, manic, depressed, and otherwise emotionally compromised- and I think it's interesting for Janeway to represent those states, especially as a Starship captain who's responsible for stranding her crew in the Delta quadrant.
Kate Mulgrew played the role wonderfully, and Janeway was a more nuanced character than many of you are giving her credit for. Yes- the writing on Voyager did a poor job exposing the flaws they wrote into the character, but they did occasionally touch on them with a lot of success. With slightly better writing, Janeway could've been developed into one of the most detailed and interesting characters in Trek history, even with her questionable actions.
In general, Voyager would've been a so much better show if the writers had just been a little bit more willing to go a touch darker.
You're right - people are sometimes inconsistent, and all the other things you listed. But I think it's absurd to assume that Janeway's inconsistent characterization was in any way deliberate. The show's writers could have gone down that road, and it could even have been interesting, but that's not the approach they elected to take. Instead, no matter what insane, ridiculous thing they had Janeway decide to do, they inevitably portrayed her actions as having been correct, and free of consequences. That's not nuanced portrayal of a complex character - that's bad writing.
I do agree, though, that Mulgrew was a fine actress, and did what she could with the role.
And again, you forgot "treason".
— Sabaton, "Great War"
Check out https://unitedfederationofpla.net/s/
Dang. Editing the post in question.
Janeway was calculated, deliberate and rode her emotions when she feels she abandoned her crew, going so far as to isolate herself and further causing damage to shipboard moral by failing to act. she was a danger to herself and with voyager she was a danger to everyone else. her flaws were the only things the writers had to go on, if it wasnt for other characters like neelix to be the most annoying one that others dont like, janeway would of been flung out the airlock faster then anything in history.
Been around since Dec 2010 on STO and bought LTS in Apr 2013 for STO.
I'd rather watch a crew of Neelix clones than suffer Data and his chip.
...Oh, baby, you know, I've really got to leave you / Oh, I can hear it callin 'me / I said don't you hear it callin' me the way it used to do?...
- Anne Bredon
My Ship Builds: USS Conqueror, HMS Victorious, HMS Concord, ISS Queen Elizabeth, Black Widow III
Click here to view my DeviantArt.
So... besides Sybok and "God" from ST5... I vote Voyager's writers.
normal text = me speaking as fellow formite
colored text = mod mode