Star Trek canon disagrees with you consistently. Money does exist in Star Trek and Earth, the Fed, and everyone else use it.
When people usually say that(especially Trek characters), they mean within Earth/the Federation. Still, some on your list do apply even with that in mind.
I just completed the First Contact mission event. I took the time to visit each of the bridge officers on the Enterprise-F and came across a very disturbing dialog.
While speaking with Lt. Com. Tem Inasi I was informed that Zefram Cochran was one of those evil capitalists types and his endeavor to prove Warp Drive was launched for the wrong reasons. For "personal gain".
This smacks of influence from the ChiCom arraignment and it serves as a leftist propaganda statement for kids playing STO that no self respecting American would condone. It is most definitely not part of the Star Trek story.
I would appreciate a response, especially since I'm a paying customer to one of those evil capitalist endeavors known as Star Trek online. I'm sure Cryptic, CBS, and others involved with this production work for free since "personal gain" is now a taboo.
I feel your pain. So do what I did... come to the Klingon side . We take the usual sort of brain-dead, moronic, primitive, knuckle-dragging Fed herd beast, sheer 'em, then fire 'em out a torpedo tube... It's GREAT fun and the best thing that can happen to any Collectivist :cool:
*STO*Its mission: To destroy strange new worlds, to seek out new life and new civilizations... and then kill them, to boldly annihilate what no one has annihilated before!
When people usually say that(especially Trek characters), they mean within Earth/the Federation. Still, some on your list do apply even with that in mind.
Simply put, money exists differently within the Federation, but they use money when dealing with other races.
Star Trek canon disagrees with you consistently. Money does exist in Star Trek and Earth, the Fed, and everyone else use it.
Most of your examples refer to alien currencies or humans that have left earth and are not part of the federation like Mudd.
The couple examples that are contrary to what Rodenberry wrote later are from very early trek... later (amount mid Next gen and on) they clearly state more then once that money is no more.
Also some of your examples refer to the Federation dealing with other Peoples/organizations. Like there bartering for access to a worm hold. No one said the state didn't have some way to represent resources, Picard said the PERSONAL need for money was eliminated.
Socialism
- any of various economic and political theories advocating collective or governmental ownership and administration of the means of production and distribution of goods
- a stage of society in Marxist theory transitional between capitalism and communism and distinguished by unequal distribution of goods and pay according to work done
That is the definition of Socialism by webster... by that definition. Pretty much every western country in the world is socialist. Including the US UK Canada ect ect ect.
The trek of the future from what I gather seems to be a super socialism idea. Not quite communism, but much more socialist in nature then anything in place in our own time.
Okay. John, first off you're rather overreacting to the NPC's little speech. As quoted above, she's merely noting that while the popular histories depict Zephram Cochrane as being this saintly worker-for-all who developed the warp drive out of the goodness of his heart, the crew of the Enterprise-E learned that he was in fact a normal human being, looking to make a profit off of his invention. It doesn't state, or even imply, that there's anything wrong with that - merely that public perception differs from historical reality.
It's similar to the difference between perception and reality of one of my own ancestors, John Adams, second president of the United States. The popular histories paint him as a "patriot" of his new nation, the United States of America (in Congress Assembled,as it was known under the Articles of Confederation, the predecessor to the Constitution). In fact, his correspondences show that he just wanted some say in governing, and that after the Revolution started rolling, if the rebels failed, the British would never believe that he couldn't have used his influence to bring a halt to it; and if it succeeded but he hadn't backed it, he'd likely wind up on a rope as a traitor. His only real hope was to back the rebels and make sure they succeeded; it was as cold-blooded a calculation as you could ever hope to see from a human. (In fact, he was a royalist at heart, and wanted to see Washington crowned as King George the First, Protector of the Colonies and Defender of the Faith - with himself, of course, as duly elected Crown Prince...)
Secondly, I recommend studying economics. Look for the phrase "post-scarcity" while you do so. You may find it rather educational.
I find it amazing and disgusting that anyone would attempt to claim an ancestry to John Adams while in the same breath attempting to pervert his life, his values, and his accomplishments. The product of a sick mind who would attempt to do so. You even stated with your own words the only motivation for the colonists to rise up after being put down so many times before.
"In fact, his correspondences show that he just wanted some say in governing"
None of the colonists sought to create a new nation. All wanted representation and such was their first battle cry. Necessity caused the revolt to come into play as a result of the Kings own actions. Pretending that the founders of this nation were somehow new nation ideologues from the start is a very pathetic effort to condemn this form of government and without a doubt any other writings you may have made on the subject will expose you for all the world to recognize the truth of yourself.
I find it amazing and disgusting that anyone would attempt to claim an ancestry to John Adams while in the same breath attempting to pervert his life, his values, and his accomplishments. The product of a sick mind who would attempt to do so. You even stated with your own words the only motivation for the colonists to rise up after being put down so many times before.
"In fact, his correspondences show that he just wanted some say in governing"
None of the colonists sought to create a new nation. All wanted representation and such was their first battle cry. Necessity caused the revolt to come into play as a result of the Kings own actions. Pretending that the founders of this nation were somehow new nation ideologues from the start is a very pathetic effort to condemn this form of government and without a doubt any other writings you may have made on the subject will expose you for all the world to recognize the truth of yourself.
It sounds like what should upset you more about the trek of the future is that the United States no longer exists. lol
And with all due respect if you have such a problem with "Chicom" influences you so believe exist here, then good luck getting through the rest of your day. I would imagine more than 50% of the TRIBBLE you'll use today is made by those folks who's influences have got you so pissy.
Wholesale murder in the name of dictatorship tends to make one a bit "pissy".
Most of your examples refer to alien currencies or humans that have left earth and are not part of the federation like Mudd.
The couple examples that are contrary to what Rodenberry wrote later are from very early trek... later (amount mid Next gen and on) they clearly state more then once that money is no more.
Also some of your examples refer to the Federation dealing with other Peoples/organizations. Like there bartering for access to a worm hold. No one said the state didn't have some way to represent resources, Picard said the PERSONAL need for money was eliminated.
Socialism
- any of various economic and political theories advocating collective or governmental ownership and administration of the means of production and distribution of goods
- a stage of society in Marxist theory transitional between capitalism and communism and distinguished by unequal distribution of goods and pay according to work done
That is the definition of Socialism by webster... by that definition. Pretty much every western country in the world is socialist. Including the US UK Canada ect ect ect.
The trek of the future from what I gather seems to be a super socialism idea. Not quite communism, but much more socialist in nature then anything in place in our own time.
I have had this discussion multiple times. The Federation is close to a Mutualist society.
Safe until CBS decides to retcon Trek again. Then watch out! :eek:
Well there is the Borg which could be explained by the machines deciding to make their creators into slaves and deciding to make all organics into slaves. However, Star Trek has always kept the origin of the Borg secret so some race perfecting themselves through cybernetics is just as valid.
It sounds like what should upset you more about the trek of the future is that the United States no longer exists. lol
If a world body government were based in the protection of rights by rule of law, with the government under the people instead of over them, I wouldn't be as inclined to object. Socialists of any stripe do not appear to be interested in anything but having themselves over the people and as such there will never be a world government.
Thankfully, such does not preclude involvement with space flight, innovation, nor even potentially warp drive. The rest is future history.
I have had this discussion multiple times. The Federation is close to a Mutualist society.
The fact that there is one political "governance" that does things like open trade negotiations with other species, compile resources to build star ships, ect... not to mention have a democratically elected president of there federation.
Tells me that it is no where close to an organized system of anarchy.
No socialism is much closer to right. Things are never black and white... but if you think of politics as a simple sliding line with Pure Capitalism on one end Pure true communism (not the 20th century version). The US is 1/4 the way along the line... with countries like Norway and Canada being closer to the center. IMO from what I have seen in the IP the Trek world is 80% up the line. Likely having realized as you say that 100% pure communism isn't possible. Still they are most of the way up there... and if you look at the IP examples that where posted a few pages back of Currency. I think it is clear that around TOS there may well have still been a good amount of Personal income. However 80-100 years later when we are in TNG time frame they seem to have moved even further way from the idea of Personal income. With most of the major resources being controlled in the name of the people by a central governance.
The fact that there is one political "governance" that does things like open trade negotiations with other species, compile resources to build star ships, ect... not to mention have a democratically elected president of there federation.
Tells me that it is no where close to an organized system of anarchy.
No socialism is much closer to right. Things are never black and white... but if you think of politics as a simple sliding line with Pure Capitalism on one end and Pure true communism (not the 20th version). The US is 1/4 the way along the line... with countries like Norway and Canada being closer to the center. IMO from what I have seen in the IP the Trek world is 80% up the line. Likely having realized as you say that 100% pure communism isn't possible. Still they are most of the way up there... and if you look at the IP examples that where posted a few pages back of Currency. I think it is clear that around TOS there may well have still been a good amount of Personal income. However 80-100 years later when we are in TNG time frame they seem to have moved even further way from the idea of Personal income. With most of the major resources being controlled in the name of the people by a central governance.
But in Star Trek, the State doesn't control the economy, so that example doesn't work.
If a world body government were based in the protection of rights by rule of law, with the government under the people instead of over them, I wouldn't be as inclined to object. Socialists of any stripe do not appear to be interested in anything but having themselves over the people and as such there will never be a world government.
Thankfully, such does not preclude involvement with space flight, innovation, nor even potentially warp drive. The rest is future history.
I agree its all just future history. lol
I think you have a dull view of socialism though. Not sure how many socialist you have spoken to in your life time. It is hardly what you think it is though.
IMO socialism is a simple change in thought processes. If you came and visited me here in Canada, you would notice nothing really different about out 2 countries at first. Until you got into a conversation like this with pretty much any average Canadian (not saying we all think alike of course) You would find the majority of us are Socialist. Even our for right political parties are likely more socialist then your center leaners there. I always find it interesting when I am down south for work or just a visit. Its always interesting to note how nothing on the surface seems different at all, until you get a political conversation going.
But in Star Trek, the State doesn't control the economy, so that example doesn't work.
How do you figure they don't ... some one posted earlier and example of the Federation in one episode offering Fed Credits for the use of a worm hole.
Of course they control the economy which seems to be resource based from what we can tell. Those pretty star ships don't build themselves. The materials come from somewhere... I think we can assume there is some form of economy even if it isn't one focused on individuals.
Also even those early IP references that are made about Star Fleet having X or Y amount of Credits invested in a person or vessel ect. That could all well be true and personal wealth could still be a thing of the past.
Well its beyond the sscope of what can argue here really... there has never been a true communism system. What they did in Russia and what they are doing in China ect are not real true communism.
In terms of trek just pointing out that it is 100% canon that the system in place in the trek future is one where money doesn't exist. How they make that work you got me.
I like the dreamer idea that Gene had of a perfect world where money was unneeded and the reason to do anything was to better yourself or someone else. Its a wonderful idea and one of the reasons many people love trek.
If Humans ever are going to get to a point where something like that is a reality it sure won't be a few hundred years from now I have no doubt. Something like that if it is ever possible would take major changes in the way people think and if I was going to guess it would be more like 2000 years off, assuming we don't do anything stupid that sets us back.
Great post, couldn't agree more. What I have always noticed is that it is an extreme meritocracy. People write books, do music, join Starfleet to better themselves, yes, but also to have the respect of their peers - ie wow she's the best violinist etc... Also to merit the opportunity to visit such and such planet on a geological expedition with the top minds in the field etc...
ie not like us. We're theFerengi - plain and simple. We're meant to see it and not like it and want to change.
Captain Jean-Luc Picard: "We think we've come so far. Torture of heretics, burning of witches, it's all ancient history. Then - before you can blink an eye - suddenly it threatens to start all over again."
"With the first link, the chain is forged. The first speech censured, the first thought forbidden, the first freedom denied, chains us all irrevocably."
It seems to be common knowledge that the crew of the Enterprise-E committed a major temporal incursion, does no-one find it odd that such a mission is not classified by the Department of Temporal Investigations?
(Or even more odd that the even-further future based Temporal Integrity Commission, who's very purpose is to maintain the prime timeline, didn't do anything about the Borg's actions in the first place?)
How do you figure they don't ... some one posted earlier and example of the Federation in one episode offering Fed Credits for the use of a worm hole.
Of course they control the economy which seems to be resource based from what we can tell. Those pretty star ships don't build themselves. The materials come from somewhere... I think we can assume there is some form of economy even if it isn't one focused on individuals.
Also even those early IP references that are made about Star Fleet having X or Y amount of Credits invested in a person or vessel ect. That could all well be true and personal wealth could still be a thing of the past.
Ah, but you keep thinking in such modern terms. Star Trek has replicators.
Ah, but you keep thinking in such modern terms. Star Trek has replicators.
Still need energy to run replicators. So without a cheap and plentiful source of energy, then the currency just changes into Joules instead of cold hard cash or we consume the Earth by converting matter into energy.
Still need energy to run replicators. So without a cheap and plentiful source of energy, then the currency just changes into Joules instead of cold hard cash or we consume the Earth by converting matter into energy.
And fusion reactors, and holodecks, and cheap interstellar travel, shall I go on?
Yeah, except that his position of "just pointing out that it is 100% canon that the system in place in the trek future is one where money doesn't exist," is utterly untenable. A few posts later he changed that to "I think we can assume there is some form of economy even if it isn't one focused on individuals." Which, frankly, is far more reasonable, and in line with what others have argued as well.
I just completed the First Contact mission event. I took the time to visit each of the bridge officers on the Enterprise-F and came across a very disturbing dialog.
While speaking with Lt. Com. Tem Inasi I was informed that Zefram Cochran was one of those evil capitalists types and his endeavor to prove Warp Drive was launched for the wrong reasons. For "personal gain".
This smacks of influence from the ChiCom arraignment and it serves as a leftist propaganda statement for kids playing STO that no self respecting American would condone. It is most definitely not part of the Star Trek story.
I would appreciate a response, especially since I'm a paying customer to one of those evil capitalist endeavors known as Star Trek online. I'm sure Cryptic, CBS, and others involved with this production work for free since "personal gain" is now a taboo.
What?! I need to read those blurbs instead of just clicking though them! :eek: Freaking Commies! :mad:
But... In First Contact ZC did say he built it for profit. I think he had an epiphany when he saw the Earth as "it's so small" and then became a humanitarian. But back to the first point... profit isn't a bad thing. Even Obama likes profit, it's where he gets his campaign funds from. :P
And as an American, this thread made me shake my head and sigh at the abject failure of our education system.
"Great War! / And I cannot take more! / Great tour! / I keep on marching on / I play the great score / There will be no encore / Great War! / The War to End All Wars"
— Sabaton, "Great War"
Ah, but you keep thinking in such modern terms. Star Trek has replicators.
And just like there are any number of natural phenomena that make transporters break, there are any number of materials that replicators can't replicate. Just for starters, the whole reason the Ferengi use latinum as a medium of exchange is because it's unreplicateable.
And as previously noted, you still need energy to run a replicator.
"Great War! / And I cannot take more! / Great tour! / I keep on marching on / I play the great score / There will be no encore / Great War! / The War to End All Wars"
— Sabaton, "Great War"
Okay, John, it's become plain to me that either you just want to fight about something, or for you a certain view of history and economics is almost religious in nature and can brook neither contradiction nor correction, no matter how terribly you must misread your opponent's words to reach the conclusion you want to argue against.
Therefore, further discussion with you on this is pointless; you do not wish to discuss, you wish to fulminate. Further, you wish to do so foolishly, angered by something said only in your own imagination, not in the game nor in any of these posts.
This having been said, I'll bow out of this thread, and let you stew in your own ignorance and anger. I hope one day you choose education and peace instead, but that's entirely up to you. Good day, sir.
But he DID develop warp drive for personal gain. Direct quote from First Contact: "You wanna know what my vision is? Dollar signs, money! I didn't build this ship to usher in a new era for humanity. You think I wanna see the stars? I don't even like to fly! I take trains! I built this ship so I could retire to some tropical island...filled with naked women. THAT'S Zefram Cochrane. THAT'S his vision. This other guy you keep talking about, this historical figure? I never met him. I can't imagine I ever will."
On the other hand, fifty years later at the dedication of the Warp Five Complex, Cochrane made the "Explore Strange New Worlds" speech, showing that he eventually DID become the idealist that he originally wasn't.
Comments
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I know right its a great epic troll thread. lol
I feel your pain. So do what I did... come to the Klingon side
Simply put, money exists differently within the Federation, but they use money when dealing with other races.
Most of your examples refer to alien currencies or humans that have left earth and are not part of the federation like Mudd.
The couple examples that are contrary to what Rodenberry wrote later are from very early trek... later (amount mid Next gen and on) they clearly state more then once that money is no more.
Also some of your examples refer to the Federation dealing with other Peoples/organizations. Like there bartering for access to a worm hold. No one said the state didn't have some way to represent resources, Picard said the PERSONAL need for money was eliminated.
Socialism
- any of various economic and political theories advocating collective or governmental ownership and administration of the means of production and distribution of goods
- a stage of society in Marxist theory transitional between capitalism and communism and distinguished by unequal distribution of goods and pay according to work done
That is the definition of Socialism by webster... by that definition. Pretty much every western country in the world is socialist. Including the US UK Canada ect ect ect.
The trek of the future from what I gather seems to be a super socialism idea. Not quite communism, but much more socialist in nature then anything in place in our own time.
I find it amazing and disgusting that anyone would attempt to claim an ancestry to John Adams while in the same breath attempting to pervert his life, his values, and his accomplishments. The product of a sick mind who would attempt to do so. You even stated with your own words the only motivation for the colonists to rise up after being put down so many times before.
"In fact, his correspondences show that he just wanted some say in governing"
None of the colonists sought to create a new nation. All wanted representation and such was their first battle cry. Necessity caused the revolt to come into play as a result of the Kings own actions. Pretending that the founders of this nation were somehow new nation ideologues from the start is a very pathetic effort to condemn this form of government and without a doubt any other writings you may have made on the subject will expose you for all the world to recognize the truth of yourself.
It sounds like what should upset you more about the trek of the future is that the United States no longer exists.
Wholesale murder in the name of dictatorship tends to make one a bit "pissy".
Harden up Princess
Looking for an Oceanic fleet? Check out our website:
www.ausmonauts.com
I have had this discussion multiple times. The Federation is close to a Mutualist society.
Well there is the Borg which could be explained by the machines deciding to make their creators into slaves and deciding to make all organics into slaves. However, Star Trek has always kept the origin of the Borg secret so some race perfecting themselves through cybernetics is just as valid.
If a world body government were based in the protection of rights by rule of law, with the government under the people instead of over them, I wouldn't be as inclined to object. Socialists of any stripe do not appear to be interested in anything but having themselves over the people and as such there will never be a world government.
Thankfully, such does not preclude involvement with space flight, innovation, nor even potentially warp drive. The rest is future history.
The fact that there is one political "governance" that does things like open trade negotiations with other species, compile resources to build star ships, ect... not to mention have a democratically elected president of there federation.
Tells me that it is no where close to an organized system of anarchy.
No socialism is much closer to right. Things are never black and white... but if you think of politics as a simple sliding line with Pure Capitalism on one end Pure true communism (not the 20th century version). The US is 1/4 the way along the line... with countries like Norway and Canada being closer to the center. IMO from what I have seen in the IP the Trek world is 80% up the line. Likely having realized as you say that 100% pure communism isn't possible. Still they are most of the way up there... and if you look at the IP examples that where posted a few pages back of Currency. I think it is clear that around TOS there may well have still been a good amount of Personal income. However 80-100 years later when we are in TNG time frame they seem to have moved even further way from the idea of Personal income. With most of the major resources being controlled in the name of the people by a central governance.
But in Star Trek, the State doesn't control the economy, so that example doesn't work.
I agree its all just future history. lol
I think you have a dull view of socialism though. Not sure how many socialist you have spoken to in your life time. It is hardly what you think it is though.
IMO socialism is a simple change in thought processes. If you came and visited me here in Canada, you would notice nothing really different about out 2 countries at first. Until you got into a conversation like this with pretty much any average Canadian (not saying we all think alike of course) You would find the majority of us are Socialist. Even our for right political parties are likely more socialist then your center leaners there. I always find it interesting when I am down south for work or just a visit. Its always interesting to note how nothing on the surface seems different at all, until you get a political conversation going.
How do you figure they don't ... some one posted earlier and example of the Federation in one episode offering Fed Credits for the use of a worm hole.
Of course they control the economy which seems to be resource based from what we can tell. Those pretty star ships don't build themselves. The materials come from somewhere... I think we can assume there is some form of economy even if it isn't one focused on individuals.
Also even those early IP references that are made about Star Fleet having X or Y amount of Credits invested in a person or vessel ect. That could all well be true and personal wealth could still be a thing of the past.
Starfleet = Space Communism. Get over it!
IKS Korrasami (Fleet B'rel Bird of Prey Retrofit T5-U)
Great post, couldn't agree more. What I have always noticed is that it is an extreme meritocracy. People write books, do music, join Starfleet to better themselves, yes, but also to have the respect of their peers - ie wow she's the best violinist etc... Also to merit the opportunity to visit such and such planet on a geological expedition with the top minds in the field etc...
ie not like us. We're theFerengi - plain and simple. We're meant to see it and not like it and want to change.
"With the first link, the chain is forged. The first speech censured, the first thought forbidden, the first freedom denied, chains us all irrevocably."
You make a very good point. :cool:
Ah, but you keep thinking in such modern terms. Star Trek has replicators.
Still need energy to run replicators. So without a cheap and plentiful source of energy, then the currency just changes into Joules instead of cold hard cash or we consume the Earth by converting matter into energy.
And fusion reactors, and holodecks, and cheap interstellar travel, shall I go on?
Yeah, except that his position of "just pointing out that it is 100% canon that the system in place in the trek future is one where money doesn't exist," is utterly untenable. A few posts later he changed that to "I think we can assume there is some form of economy even if it isn't one focused on individuals." Which, frankly, is far more reasonable, and in line with what others have argued as well.
What?! I need to read those blurbs instead of just clicking though them! :eek: Freaking Commies! :mad:
But... In First Contact ZC did say he built it for profit. I think he had an epiphany when he saw the Earth as "it's so small" and then became a humanitarian. But back to the first point... profit isn't a bad thing. Even Obama likes profit, it's where he gets his campaign funds from. :P
And as an American, this thread made me shake my head and sigh at the abject failure of our education system.
— Sabaton, "Great War"
Check out https://unitedfederationofpla.net/s/
And just like there are any number of natural phenomena that make transporters break, there are any number of materials that replicators can't replicate. Just for starters, the whole reason the Ferengi use latinum as a medium of exchange is because it's unreplicateable.
And as previously noted, you still need energy to run a replicator.
— Sabaton, "Great War"
Check out https://unitedfederationofpla.net/s/
Therefore, further discussion with you on this is pointless; you do not wish to discuss, you wish to fulminate. Further, you wish to do so foolishly, angered by something said only in your own imagination, not in the game nor in any of these posts.
This having been said, I'll bow out of this thread, and let you stew in your own ignorance and anger. I hope one day you choose education and peace instead, but that's entirely up to you. Good day, sir.
On the other hand, fifty years later at the dedication of the Warp Five Complex, Cochrane made the "Explore Strange New Worlds" speech, showing that he eventually DID become the idealist that he originally wasn't.