Actually it doesn't, because pre-Nero Abramsverse is the prime universe. So, in a way, that's not Abramsverse yet. Abramsverse starts when Nero travells through time and starts a rampage all around, altering the natural development of events - thus creating the Abramsverse, which as far as I understand is actually not a parallel universe, but an altered timeline that lead to different developments in history due to the Nero & Spock incursion from the future.
Star Trek: Enterprise is set in the prime universe/timeline. It has always been set in the prime universe and it has not been altered by events in the J.J. movies.
The Abramsverse shared pre-Nero events with the Prime universe, so yes, ST:E does count as both.
Was it onscreen? No. It's not canon, they were not Caitians.
So Uhuru's roommate and a crewmember of the Enterprise are not Orions because even though they have green skin, it is not mentioned onscreen? Or if they introduce a blue skinned alien that has antennae, then they are not Andorian because they were not mentioned onscreen? Mentioning what every single alien is in the movie would make it completely unwatchable. After all, there are far too many aliens in the new Star Trek movies that haven't been classified.
You don't get to decide on what is Canon and what is not Canon. Only people responsible for the IP of Star Trek can decide what is Canon. All you can say is that this should be canon and this shouldn't be canon. There is a huge difference between canon and Canon. So if Damon Lindelof who is one of the people responsible for the JJ Universe IP says they are Caitians, then they are Caitians unless someone else in his position says otherwise.
Caitians and the fact that alternate timelines are not created in Star Trek due to someone messing up the timeline in Star Trek.
I guess it is possible that they suffered the same curse that the Klingons did into making them more human, but that is an incredibly stupid reason for them looking like humans. If this is a parallel universe, then evolution and history would be the most noticeable effects. So even if humans turn out the same and the Federation is created and almost being completely identical, then alien races would look completely different. The probability of having 2 completely identical parallel universes is too astronomical. You are probably more likely to get struck by lightning, hit by a meteoroid, and have an asteroid hit the Earth at the same time than have 2 completely identical parallel universes. So it makes sense that in one parallel universe, Caitians evolve to be furry while another parallel universe has Caitians with no fur. Or in one universe have Orion Females with very powerful pheromones and in another have them with regular pheromones.
The City on the Edge of Forever had human civilization destroyed until Kirk and Spock prevent McCoy from saving Edith Keeler in the 1930s. Past Tense had the Federation and Starfleet vanish from the present until Sisko pretended to be Gabriel Bell. Children of Time had a civilization disappear when the Defiant crew escaped back to DS9 instead of traveling back in time. Time's Orphan had Adult Molly vanish when she saved younger Molly. Shockwave had Daniels accidentally destroy 31st Century Earth by removing Archer from the Timeline until it was restored. So changing the past changes the future. Nero going back in time would remove the timeline we are familiar with and have a completely new timeline where Vulcan is destroyed. So STO would not exist if Nero went back in time. Therefore, Nero and Spock did not travel back in time, but into a parallel universe where JJ and his associates can change a ton of things that don't fit the alternate timeline view like making Borg Hippies, Pakleds being the greatest engineers in the universe, the Iconians are still around and helping younger races, and various other things that we would laugh at.
Caitians and the fact that alternate timelines are not created in Star Trek due to someone messing up the timeline in Star Trek.
I guess it is possible that they suffered the same curse that the Klingons did into making them more human, but that is an incredibly stupid reason for them looking like humans. If this is a parallel universe, then evolution and history would be the most noticeable effects. So even if humans turn out the same and the Federation is created and almost being completely identical, then alien races would look completely different. The probability of having 2 completely identical parallel universes is too astronomical. You are probably more likely to get struck by lightning, hit by a meteoroid, and have an asteroid hit the Earth at the same time than have 2 completely identical parallel universes. So it makes sense that in one parallel universe, Caitians evolve to be furry while another parallel universe has Caitians with no fur. Or in one universe have Orion Females with very powerful pheromones and in another have them with regular pheromones.
The City on the Edge of Forever had human civilization destroyed until Kirk and Spock prevent McCoy from saving Edith Keeler in the 1930s. Past Tense had the Federation and Starfleet vanish from the present until Sisko pretended to be Gabriel Bell. Children of Time had a civilization disappear when the Defiant crew escaped back to DS9 instead of traveling back in time. Time's Orphan had Adult Molly vanish when she saved younger Molly. Shockwave had Daniels accidentally destroy 31st Century Earth by removing Archer from the Timeline until it was restored. So changing the past changes the future. Nero going back in time would remove the timeline we are familiar with and have a completely new timeline where Vulcan is destroyed. So STO would not exist if Nero went back in time. Therefore, Nero and Spock did not travel back in time, but into a parallel universe where JJ and his associates can change a ton of things that don't fit the alternate timeline view like making Borg Hippies, Pakleds being the greatest engineers in the universe, the Iconians are still around and helping younger races, and various other things that we would laugh at.
Sooo... nothing official.
Sorry, but if you present opinions as if they were facts in an argument about fictional continuity, you need to back it up with something official.
Sorry, but if you present opinions as if they were facts in an argument about fictional continuity, you need to back it up with something official.
Everything in my previous post was backed up by facts. Changing the past changes the future is a constant in Star Trek episodes about Time Travel and I gave a bunch of references to Star Trek episodes that prove that. Caitians in the prime universe and in the JJ universe having a different look is proven by Damon Lindelof stating that the alien twins in Into Darkness are Caitians. The looks of a person are defined by their genetics so the non-furry Caitians in the JJ universe had a different evolutionary path than the furry Caitians in the Prime Universe. If the JJ universe is just an alternate timeline, then Caitians would be furry since such changes take thousands of years or more. There will be more inconsistencies in future Star Trek movies and there is probably some other inconsistencies in the current Star Trek movies that can't be explained by being in an alternate timeline and can only be explained through a parallel universe.
Here is some more evidence that the new Star Trek movies rely on the Many Worlds Interpretation and not Time Travel.
Roberto Orci: "If you look at quantum mechanics and you learn about the fact that our most successful theory of science is quantum mechanics, and the fact that it deals with probabilities of events happening. And that the most probable events tend to happen more often and that one of the subsets of that theory is the many universe theory. Data said this [in "Parallels"], he summed up quantum mechanics as the theory that 'all possibilities that can happen do happen' in a parallel universe."
Roberto Orci: "According to theory, there are going to be a much larger number of universes in which events are very closely related, because those are the most probable configurations of things. Inherent in quantum mechanics there is sort of reverse entropy, which is what you were trying to say, in which the universe does tend to want to order itself in a certain way. This is not something we are making up; this is something we researched, in terms of the physical theory. So yes, there is an element of the universe trying to hold itself together."
The Abramsverse shared pre-Nero events with the Prime universe, so yes, ST:E does count as both.
I understand what you're saying. Now you try to understand what I'm saying: There is no Abramsverse before the Nero & Spock incursion. The Abramsverse point of birth is the time travel of Nero with the Narada and Spock with the Jellyfish.
Imagine it as a horizontal line, now let's say at the beginning of that line is ENT and then at a later point this incursion from the future happens and triggers a branch out of the line into another horizontal line parallel to the "main" one which continues and represents the prime timeline. This second parallel line would represent the Abrams timeline.
Now you may say that they both share origins - threfore share ENT, but the way I see it the new line is an anomaly that starts it's own history at the point of conception, while ENT belongs in the original timeline that continues unaltered by the events of ST:2009.
Everything in my previous post was backed up by facts.
You merely connected those facts with speculation though. Your Caitian hypothesis, you pointing out how parallel universes and alternate timelines work. You're presenting facts it's true, but the connections to the subject matter are merely your hypothesis. Nothing more.
But to be fair, I'll address the rest of this post of yours.
Changing the past changes the future is a constant in Star Trek episodes about Time Travel and I gave a bunch of references to Star Trek episodes that prove that. Caitians in the prime universe and in the JJ universe having a different look is proven by Damon Lindelof stating that the alien twins in Into Darkness are Caitians. The looks of a person are defined by their genetics so the non-furry Caitians in the JJ universe had a different evolutionary path than the furry Caitians in the Prime Universe. If the JJ universe is just an alternate timeline, then Caitians would be furry since such changes take thousands of years or more. There will be more inconsistencies in future Star Trek movies and there is probably some other inconsistencies in the current Star Trek movies that can't be explained by being in an alternate timeline and can only be explained through a parallel universe.
First of all, the Abramsverse Caitians that we've seen having a different look than the Prime Caitians we've seen is irrelevant. To assume they couldn't have originated from the dame root universe would be to ignore the possibility of the differences merely being genetic diversity of the Caitian home world.
Here is some more evidence that the new Star Trek movies rely on the Many Worlds Interpretation and not Time Travel.
The first quote contains a massive assuption. Even if one particular universe is infinite, there is no guarantee that every pattern physically possible in that universe will be repeated. Same goes for multiverses. Sure there's a vastly large probability that a particular pattern will emerge more than once, but to say that it will with absolute certainty is ignoring how probabilities work, even factoring infinity in.
I'm not sure what the point of the second quote is, it seems irrelevant.
I understand what you're saying. Now you try to understand what I'm saying: There is no Abramsverse before the Nero & Spock incursion. The Abramsverse point of birth is the time travel of Nero with the Narada and Spock with the Jellyfish.
Imagine it as a horizontal line, now let's say at the beginning of that line is ENT and then at a later point this incursion from the future happens and triggers a branch out of the line into another horizontal line parallel to the "main" one which continues and represents the prime timeline. This second parallel line would represent the Abrams timeline.
Now you may say that they both share origins - threfore share ENT, but the way I see it the new line is an anomaly that starts it's own history at the point of conception, while ENT belongs in the original timeline that continues unaltered by the events of ST:2009.
That analogy is inaccurate though. It's less like a pair of horizontal lines and more like branches of a tree. The Abramsverse in fact doesn't start its own history at the point of conception. Its history at that point has already been grounded in the events prior. Yes, its unique history might've started at the point of conception, but if unique history is what you're describing is the main condition to claim past events, then the Prime universe can not claim ST:E either, as it is no longer unique to it.
I didn't dispute the Constitution comment. I'm well aware the JJprise is more advanced than the TOS one.
The Defiant's library included records of Archer, Hoshi, and the NX-01. It was obvious intended to be the same ship that disappeared in "The Tholian Web".
Who's to say the I.S.S. Enterprise in "Mirror, Mirror" wasn't more advanced than the prime version? Or maybe in the mirror universe, by the 2260s the Constitution was no longer a flagship design but an old ship due to be retired soon.
You're right, we don't know anything for sure. But the implication is that those ships were from the future of Archer's timeline.
I don't see how the Nero's incursion into 2233 would have affected events that happened a century earlier.
The defiant that dis appeared in the tholian web is from the prime universe. we can assume that there was a Jonathan archer in the prime universe and that certain events probably played out similarly. So not really surprising that he has prime universe records.
"Mirror, mirror" did, Captain kirk was mentioned as a social climber, already pretty close to the top thanks the Tantalus device. Why wouldn't he use it to get a decent ship.
And I wasn't saying Nero's incursion affected archer, I was saying the Borg and captain Picard's incursion affected his timeline.
We saw archer encounter the Borg in the 2100's and fight them, and we saw human scientists studying the technology. We also saw the Borg sent a distress/homing signal home.
These events were never mentioned in the prime universe so they didn't happen before, hence after first contact we have a new alternate reality and enterprise is part of it.
As a time traveller, Am I supposed to pack underwear or underwhen?
Not everything you see on the internet is true - Abraham Lincoln
I guess in the alternate reality oil and fossil fuels were in high quantities so they converted the enterprise's engineering section to process it all:rolleyes:
The defiant that dis appeared in the tholian web is from the prime universe. we can assume that there was a Jonathan archer in the prime universe and that certain events probably played out similarly. So not really surprising that he has prime universe records.
"Mirror, mirror" did, Captain kirk was mentioned as a social climber, already pretty close to the top thanks the Tantalus device. Why wouldn't he use it to get a decent ship.
And I wasn't saying Nero's incursion affected archer, I was saying the Borg and captain Picard's incursion affected his timeline.
We saw archer encounter the Borg in the 2100's and fight them, and we saw human scientists studying the technology. We also saw the Borg sent a distress/homing signal home.
These events were never mentioned in the prime universe so they didn't happen before, hence after first contact we have a new alternate reality and enterprise is part of it.
That is very much a weak arugment, if it wasn't mentioned when the show was first made, it doesn't exist in subsequent shows that do mention them as existing.
Or how do we know that a lowly starship Captain would have access to events that happened in a predescessor Organization? Picard didn't know anything about the Borg despite the Hansen's studying them in the late 2350s, does that invalidate the Hansens?
i dont get the point of this thread unless he is trying to say ST ENT is part of JJ TRIBBLE but then forgets the last EP that had riker and Troi at the end of the EP.............
You merely connected those facts with speculation though. Your Caitian hypothesis, you pointing out how parallel universes and alternate timelines work. You're presenting facts it's true, but the connections to the subject matter are merely your hypothesis. Nothing more.
But to be fair, I'll address the rest of this post of yours.
First of all, the Abramsverse Caitians that we've seen having a different look than the Prime Caitians we've seen is irrelevant. To assume they couldn't have originated from the dame root universe would be to ignore the possibility of the differences merely being genetic diversity of the Caitian home world.
So where are the non-furry Caitians in the prime universe? There are only a few Caitians that we do know of and they never mentioned having non-furry cousins on their homeworld. It is far more likely to have a different species of sentients to evolve on a planet in a parallel universe than it is to have the same species in the parallel universe and prime universe. After all evolution is extremely complex so even if the initial conditions are the same, then the end result will be completely different.
However, the Caitian link is only a minor one to show that there are differences between the JJ Universe and the Prime Universe before Nero attacked the USS Kelvin. The main proof is that if Nero traveled to the Prime Universe's past, then the timeline we are familiar with would cease to exist as shown by the many examples I have stated. Since the timeline we are familiar with still exists, then Nero didn't travel to the Prime Universe's past, but a parallel universe that looks like the Prime Universe's past. I have given many examples about why changing the past changes the future so give one instance where an alternate timeline is created by changing the past and the JJ Universe doesn't count.
The first quote contains a massive assuption. Even if one particular universe is infinite, there is no guarantee that every pattern physically possible in that universe will be repeated. Same goes for multiverses. Sure there's a vastly large probability that a particular pattern will emerge more than once, but to say that it will with absolute certainty is ignoring how probabilities work, even factoring infinity in.
I'm not sure what the point of the second quote is, it seems irrelevant.
Both are quotes from one of the producers and writers of Star Trek 2009 and Into Darkness. Even if a particular pattern is highly unlikely to happen more than a few times, Star Trek is not concerned about those probabilities. We have the Parallels episode where thousands of Enterprises were in the same area.
The second quote is to indicate that since certain events are more probable than others so certain universes are more likely. Since the Star Trek universe is a highly probable event, then that is why Spock and Nero went to a parallel universe that is similar to their own instead of ending up in a universe where the Force exists and people swing light swords.
Personally, I am not an advocate of this idea and if the many world interpretations is true, then life can get truly weird in the different parallel universes. So Earth wouldn't have humans, but some other dominant species and that the Earth would not be recognizable. If there is a parallel universe with humans on a planet that has the same solar configuration as ours, then the history would be completely different.
I think there are some limits to who Kirk will go after and JJ or one of his associates wanted to add catgirls into his movie. Caitians from the prime universe are past his level of tolerance for getting to know better while catgirls where they look mostly human except for the ears and tail are definitely within his limits.
i dont get the point of this thread unless he is trying to say ST ENT is part of JJ TRIBBLE but then forgets the last EP that had riker and Troi at the end of the EP.............
And you forget that it was supposed to be a holodeck. So the last episode of enterprise is arguably not even in the enterprise universe.
As a time traveller, Am I supposed to pack underwear or underwhen?
Not everything you see on the internet is true - Abraham Lincoln
That is very much a weak arugment, if it wasn't mentioned when the show was first made, it doesn't exist in subsequent shows that do mention them as existing.
Or how do we know that a lowly starship Captain would have access to events that happened in a predescessor Organization? Picard didn't know anything about the Borg despite the Hansen's studying them in the late 2350s, does that invalidate the Hansens?
The Hansen's never got a chance to report their findings they were assimilated.
Starfleet was studying the Borg on earth. If it had happened in the prime universe then some one would have known about it.
And you really cant argue continuity of a time line while also arguing the continuity of another time line.
Either enterprise is first or its last it can't be both.
As a time traveller, Am I supposed to pack underwear or underwhen?
Not everything you see on the internet is true - Abraham Lincoln
I think there are some limits to who Kirk will go after and JJ or one of his associates wanted to add catgirls into his movie. Caitians from the prime universe are past his level of tolerance for getting to know better while catgirls where they look mostly human except for the ears and tail are definitely within his limits.
Don't have to convince me. It has effectively destroyed any future Star Trek movie set in that universe with its interstellar teleporter and magic blood.
The Hansen's never got a chance to report their findings they were assimilated.
Starfleet was studying the Borg on earth. If it had happened in the prime universe then some one would have known about it.
And you really cant argue continuity of a time line while also arguing the continuity of another time line.
Either enterprise is first or its last it can't be both.
The Hansen's went before the Federation Council to petition to study the Borg and Starfleet gave them the USS Raven. So, the UFP and Starfleet knew of the Borg, besides the fact that ENT is in the same universe as TNG and VOY as told by the producers of the show. Also, Voyager referenced the events of First Contact in the episode, Year of Hell.
So Uhuru's roommate and a crewmember of the Enterprise are not Orions because even though they have green skin, it is not mentioned onscreen? Or if they introduce a blue skinned alien that has antennae, then they are not Andorian because they were not mentioned onscreen? Mentioning what every single alien is in the movie would make it completely unwatchable. After all, there are far too many aliens in the new Star Trek movies that haven't been classified.
Umm no, duh.
Green women are Orions because they still look like Orions, why would that change? Those cat girls do not look anything like Caitians so they are not Caitians unless called so on screen
You don't get to decide on what is Canon and what is not Canon. Only people responsible for the IP of Star Trek can decide what is Canon. All you can say is that this should be canon and this shouldn't be canon. There is a huge difference between canon and Canon. So if Damon Lindelof who is one of the people responsible for the JJ Universe IP says they are Caitians, then they are Caitians unless someone else in his position says otherwise.
Well done, I don't, and neither does Damon Lindelof. ST canon is what appears in the 6 TV series and 12 films, not anything that didn't make it to screen.
They were not called Caitians in the Film, they are not anything like previously seen Caitians, therefore they are not Caitians.
Norway and Yeager dammit... I still want my Typhoon and Jupiter though. JJ Trek The Kelvin Timeline is just Trek and it's fully canon... get over it. But I still prefer TAR.
#TASforSTO
'...I can tell you that we're not in the military and that we intend no harm to the whales.' Kirk: The Voyage Home
'Starfleet is not a military organisation. Its purpose is exploration.' Picard: Peak Performance
'This is clearly a military operation. Is that what we are now? Because I thought we were explorers!' Scotty: Into Darkness
'...The Federation. Starfleet. We're not a military agency.' Scotty: Beyond
'I'm not a soldier anymore. I'm an engineer.' Miles O'Brien: Empok Nor
'...Starfleet could use you... It's a peacekeeping and humanitarian armada...' Admiral Pike: Star Trek
Norway and Yeager dammit... I still want my Typhoon and Jupiter though. JJ Trek The Kelvin Timeline is just Trek and it's fully canon... get over it. But I still prefer TAR.
#TASforSTO
'...I can tell you that we're not in the military and that we intend no harm to the whales.' Kirk: The Voyage Home
'Starfleet is not a military organisation. Its purpose is exploration.' Picard: Peak Performance
'This is clearly a military operation. Is that what we are now? Because I thought we were explorers!' Scotty: Into Darkness
'...The Federation. Starfleet. We're not a military agency.' Scotty: Beyond
'I'm not a soldier anymore. I'm an engineer.' Miles O'Brien: Empok Nor
'...Starfleet could use you... It's a peacekeeping and humanitarian armada...' Admiral Pike: Star Trek
did you even click the link or trying to be a smart A did you see this http://www.startrek.com/article/exclusive-interview-damon-lindelof just because they dont look like your house cat but walking on twos dont mean they are not the cat ppl of JJ TRIBBLE look at his stupid klingon and how imo dont look like klingon of prime universe im going to take some one word that worked on the move over you any day
maybe you should go updated it seeing you think its wrong and see then what happens
It is true. They the movie guys) said they are caitians - I personally think they don't care though and the interview didn't seem like he would care or listen, but the regular human with strap-on tails are JJverses caitians. That doesn't mean you have to care about them, though. It's meant to get teenage boys to watch the movie, JJ-Trek is about fast cuts, loud 'splosions and mass-compatible, 'sexy' women. I don't give a squeal about JJ-treks insulting writing and "updated" designs - it's an alternate reality and has nothing to do with "my" Star Trek. I didn't even watch into darkness
^ Memory Alpha.org is not canon. It's a open wiki with arbitrary rules. Only what can be cited from an episode is. ^
"No. Men do not roar. Women roar. Then they hurl heavy objects... and claw at you." -Worf, son of Mogh
"A filthy, mangy beast, but in its bony breast beat the heart of a warrior" - "faithful" (...) "but ever-ready to follow the call of the wild." - Martok, about a Targ
"That pig smelled horrid. A sweet-sour, extremely pungent odor. I showered and showered, and it took me a week to get rid of it!" - Robert Justman, appreciating Emmy-Lou
There are only a few Caitians that we do know of and they never mentioned having non-furry cousins on their homeworld.
So what? I've never mentioned my 72-year-old sister here yet, does that mean she doesn't exist?
Are you implying that nothing exists in a fictional world exists in that fictional world unless it's seen on-screen or mentionsd? Because that's not how fictional universes work.
The main proof is that if Nero traveled to the Prime Universe's past, then the timeline we are familiar with would cease to exist as shown by the many examples I have stated.
Not if timelines branch out instead of replace an existing timeline. Also, I don't see that as proof regardless. But I may be missing your point. Clarify please...?
Both are quotes from one of the producers and writers of Star Trek 2009 and Into Darkness. Even if a particular pattern is highly unlikely to happen more than a few times, Star Trek is not concerned about those probabilities. We have the Parallels episode where thousands of Enterprises were in the same area.
The second quote is to indicate that since certain events are more probable than others so certain universes are more likely. Since the Star Trek universe is a highly probable event, then that is why Spock and Nero went to a parallel universe that is similar to their own instead of ending up in a universe where the Force exists and people swing light swords.
But that's an assumption that your proposal is correct. Circular reasoning.
At least I think you're trying to convince me that the Abramsverse is a separate reality than the Prime universe. If that is what you're doing, your argument is fallacious. D=
Personally, I am not an advocate of this idea and if the many world interpretations is true, then life can get truly weird in the different parallel universes. So Earth wouldn't have humans, but some other dominant species and that the Earth would not be recognizable. If there is a parallel universe with humans on a planet that has the same solar configuration as ours, then the history would be completely different.
I can safely say I'd be fine with the idea. Say a parallel universe that had humans that left Earth to travel to the delta quadrant instead of the Voth. Or something.
The defiant that dis appeared in the tholian web is from the prime universe. we can assume that there was a Jonathan archer in the prime universe and that certain events probably played out similarly. So not really surprising that he has prime universe records.
So you're saying Archer and the NX-01 did exist in the prime universe but not as we know them from Enterprise? That seems like kind of a stretch to me.
"Mirror, mirror" did, Captain kirk was mentioned as a social climber, already pretty close to the top thanks the Tantalus device. Why wouldn't he use it to get a decent ship.
He didn't necessarily have to be at the top of the ranks to have influence over people. If anything, that would make him a higher target.
And I wasn't saying Nero's incursion affected archer, I was saying the Borg and captain Picard's incursion affected his timeline.
According to Seven of Nine, the events of First Contact represented a Pogo paradox. So the events of that movie were actually part of the "correct" timeline.
We saw archer encounter the Borg in the 2100's and fight them, and we saw human scientists studying the technology. We also saw the Borg sent a distress/homing signal home.
The scientists were all assimilated, so their findings never made it home (at least, most of it didn't). Archer and his crew knew of their existence, but not their name or any detailed information about their technology. And since the homing signal didn't reach the Delta Quadrant for another 200 years, that would explain the attacks on colonies in "The Neutral Zone".
These events were never mentioned in the prime universe so they didn't happen before, hence after first contact we have a new alternate reality and enterprise is part of it.
Never mentioned doesn't mean they didn't happen. We just didn't know they happened until Enterprise.
"Critics who say that the optimistic utopia Star Trek depicted is now outmoded forget the cultural context that gave birth to it: Star Trek was not a manifestation of optimism when optimism was easy. Star Trek declared a hope for a future that nobody stuck in the present could believe in. For all our struggles today, we haven’t outgrown the need for stories like Star Trek. We need tales of optimism, of heroes, of courage and goodness now as much as we’ve ever needed them." -Thomas Marrone
did you even click the link or trying to be a smart A did you see this http://www.startrek.com/article/exclusive-interview-damon-lindelof just because they dont look like your house cat but walking on twos dont mean they are not the cat ppl of JJ TRIBBLE look at his stupid klingon and how imo dont look like klingon of prime universe im going to take some one word that worked on the move over you any day
maybe you should go updated it seeing you think its wrong and see then what happens
Um, they still are not Caitians, a tail and funny ears do not a Caitian make.
It's not my word against a producers, it's a producers against on screen canon, try read my posts correctly.
The Klingons in ID look like Klingons, 2 metres tall? Check. Dark complexions? Check. Ridged foreheads? From Kronos? Check. Called Klingons in the film? Check. They are exactly like other Klingons. Compare and contrast TMP, Chang, and Martok, large differences in makeup, but just as Klongon as the ID ones.
Norway and Yeager dammit... I still want my Typhoon and Jupiter though. JJ Trek The Kelvin Timeline is just Trek and it's fully canon... get over it. But I still prefer TAR.
#TASforSTO
'...I can tell you that we're not in the military and that we intend no harm to the whales.' Kirk: The Voyage Home
'Starfleet is not a military organisation. Its purpose is exploration.' Picard: Peak Performance
'This is clearly a military operation. Is that what we are now? Because I thought we were explorers!' Scotty: Into Darkness
'...The Federation. Starfleet. We're not a military agency.' Scotty: Beyond
'I'm not a soldier anymore. I'm an engineer.' Miles O'Brien: Empok Nor
'...Starfleet could use you... It's a peacekeeping and humanitarian armada...' Admiral Pike: Star Trek
Not if timelines branch out instead of replace an existing timeline. Also, I don't see that as proof regardless. But I may be missing your point. Clarify please...?
So what is different between this temporal event and every other temporal event that I mentioned that dealt with the future changing? There is absolutely zero evidence that changing the past has a new timeline branching out and the current one still exists in all the Star Trek episodes and movies I have watched. All Star Trek episodes that deal with this concept have the new timeline replacing the current one until the crew restores the future to the timeline the crew is familiar with. So where is your proof of timelines branching out in a Star Trek episode or movie? List one Star Trek movie or episode with someone changing the past that has the timeline branch out instead of replacing the existing one.
So there are only two possibilities. Nero and Spock went back in time and completely destroyed the timeline we are familiar with or Nero and Spock went to a parallel universe.
I said the nx AND constitution were more advanced than their prime universe COUNTERPARTS.
In a mirror darkly happened in yet another alternate timeline in an alternate reality, otherwise when "mirror, mirror" happened more than 100 years later the enterprise would have been more advanced.
Archer was being shown a possible future again in a possible alternate reality who knows if its still a valid possible future?
Since the JJ verse clearly includes at least the existence of archer its possible that the events of the jj verse have altered the same timeline.
Um no, apples and oranges. If your talking about the mirror universe NX class the only reason that ship appeared more advanced isn't because it was. Remember these technologies were stolen from other races not designed by the terran starfleet and even though they may have been cutting edge then, 100 years later they would be relics. As the tos era U.S.S. Defiant proved when it wiped the floor with a whole fleet by itself.
So there are only two possibilities. Nero and Spock went back in time and completely destroyed the timeline we are familiar with or Nero and Spock went to a parallel universe.
No there isn't. It's been stated before that the events in '09' created an alternate universe that did not erase or replace the existing Prime timeline that everyone knows.
It's part of the reason when J.J. and bad robot productions started production of 09 they first wanted to erase and replace the prime universe the response from Cbs was......
And when they tried again during production of 'into Khaaaanness!' to have Cbs to suspend all prime universe merchandise and products in favor of their universe they got J.J. Jamesoned as they rightly should have. Cbs has said time and time again the Prime timeline was not rewritten/destroyed.
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So Uhuru's roommate and a crewmember of the Enterprise are not Orions because even though they have green skin, it is not mentioned onscreen? Or if they introduce a blue skinned alien that has antennae, then they are not Andorian because they were not mentioned onscreen? Mentioning what every single alien is in the movie would make it completely unwatchable. After all, there are far too many aliens in the new Star Trek movies that haven't been classified.
You don't get to decide on what is Canon and what is not Canon. Only people responsible for the IP of Star Trek can decide what is Canon. All you can say is that this should be canon and this shouldn't be canon. There is a huge difference between canon and Canon. So if Damon Lindelof who is one of the people responsible for the JJ Universe IP says they are Caitians, then they are Caitians unless someone else in his position says otherwise.
Caitians and the fact that alternate timelines are not created in Star Trek due to someone messing up the timeline in Star Trek.
I guess it is possible that they suffered the same curse that the Klingons did into making them more human, but that is an incredibly stupid reason for them looking like humans. If this is a parallel universe, then evolution and history would be the most noticeable effects. So even if humans turn out the same and the Federation is created and almost being completely identical, then alien races would look completely different. The probability of having 2 completely identical parallel universes is too astronomical. You are probably more likely to get struck by lightning, hit by a meteoroid, and have an asteroid hit the Earth at the same time than have 2 completely identical parallel universes. So it makes sense that in one parallel universe, Caitians evolve to be furry while another parallel universe has Caitians with no fur. Or in one universe have Orion Females with very powerful pheromones and in another have them with regular pheromones.
The City on the Edge of Forever had human civilization destroyed until Kirk and Spock prevent McCoy from saving Edith Keeler in the 1930s. Past Tense had the Federation and Starfleet vanish from the present until Sisko pretended to be Gabriel Bell. Children of Time had a civilization disappear when the Defiant crew escaped back to DS9 instead of traveling back in time. Time's Orphan had Adult Molly vanish when she saved younger Molly. Shockwave had Daniels accidentally destroy 31st Century Earth by removing Archer from the Timeline until it was restored. So changing the past changes the future. Nero going back in time would remove the timeline we are familiar with and have a completely new timeline where Vulcan is destroyed. So STO would not exist if Nero went back in time. Therefore, Nero and Spock did not travel back in time, but into a parallel universe where JJ and his associates can change a ton of things that don't fit the alternate timeline view like making Borg Hippies, Pakleds being the greatest engineers in the universe, the Iconians are still around and helping younger races, and various other things that we would laugh at.
Sorry, but if you present opinions as if they were facts in an argument about fictional continuity, you need to back it up with something official.
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Everything in my previous post was backed up by facts. Changing the past changes the future is a constant in Star Trek episodes about Time Travel and I gave a bunch of references to Star Trek episodes that prove that. Caitians in the prime universe and in the JJ universe having a different look is proven by Damon Lindelof stating that the alien twins in Into Darkness are Caitians. The looks of a person are defined by their genetics so the non-furry Caitians in the JJ universe had a different evolutionary path than the furry Caitians in the Prime Universe. If the JJ universe is just an alternate timeline, then Caitians would be furry since such changes take thousands of years or more. There will be more inconsistencies in future Star Trek movies and there is probably some other inconsistencies in the current Star Trek movies that can't be explained by being in an alternate timeline and can only be explained through a parallel universe.
Here is some more evidence that the new Star Trek movies rely on the Many Worlds Interpretation and not Time Travel.
I understand what you're saying. Now you try to understand what I'm saying: There is no Abramsverse before the Nero & Spock incursion. The Abramsverse point of birth is the time travel of Nero with the Narada and Spock with the Jellyfish.
Imagine it as a horizontal line, now let's say at the beginning of that line is ENT and then at a later point this incursion from the future happens and triggers a branch out of the line into another horizontal line parallel to the "main" one which continues and represents the prime timeline. This second parallel line would represent the Abrams timeline.
Now you may say that they both share origins - threfore share ENT, but the way I see it the new line is an anomaly that starts it's own history at the point of conception, while ENT belongs in the original timeline that continues unaltered by the events of ST:2009.
But to be fair, I'll address the rest of this post of yours.
First of all, the Abramsverse Caitians that we've seen having a different look than the Prime Caitians we've seen is irrelevant. To assume they couldn't have originated from the dame root universe would be to ignore the possibility of the differences merely being genetic diversity of the Caitian home world.
The first quote contains a massive assuption. Even if one particular universe is infinite, there is no guarantee that every pattern physically possible in that universe will be repeated. Same goes for multiverses. Sure there's a vastly large probability that a particular pattern will emerge more than once, but to say that it will with absolute certainty is ignoring how probabilities work, even factoring infinity in.
I'm not sure what the point of the second quote is, it seems irrelevant.
That analogy is inaccurate though. It's less like a pair of horizontal lines and more like branches of a tree. The Abramsverse in fact doesn't start its own history at the point of conception. Its history at that point has already been grounded in the events prior. Yes, its unique history might've started at the point of conception, but if unique history is what you're describing is the main condition to claim past events, then the Prime universe can not claim ST:E either, as it is no longer unique to it.
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The defiant that dis appeared in the tholian web is from the prime universe. we can assume that there was a Jonathan archer in the prime universe and that certain events probably played out similarly. So not really surprising that he has prime universe records.
"Mirror, mirror" did, Captain kirk was mentioned as a social climber, already pretty close to the top thanks the Tantalus device. Why wouldn't he use it to get a decent ship.
And I wasn't saying Nero's incursion affected archer, I was saying the Borg and captain Picard's incursion affected his timeline.
We saw archer encounter the Borg in the 2100's and fight them, and we saw human scientists studying the technology. We also saw the Borg sent a distress/homing signal home.
These events were never mentioned in the prime universe so they didn't happen before, hence after first contact we have a new alternate reality and enterprise is part of it.
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That is very much a weak arugment, if it wasn't mentioned when the show was first made, it doesn't exist in subsequent shows that do mention them as existing.
Or how do we know that a lowly starship Captain would have access to events that happened in a predescessor Organization? Picard didn't know anything about the Borg despite the Hansen's studying them in the late 2350s, does that invalidate the Hansens?
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So where are the non-furry Caitians in the prime universe? There are only a few Caitians that we do know of and they never mentioned having non-furry cousins on their homeworld. It is far more likely to have a different species of sentients to evolve on a planet in a parallel universe than it is to have the same species in the parallel universe and prime universe. After all evolution is extremely complex so even if the initial conditions are the same, then the end result will be completely different.
However, the Caitian link is only a minor one to show that there are differences between the JJ Universe and the Prime Universe before Nero attacked the USS Kelvin. The main proof is that if Nero traveled to the Prime Universe's past, then the timeline we are familiar with would cease to exist as shown by the many examples I have stated. Since the timeline we are familiar with still exists, then Nero didn't travel to the Prime Universe's past, but a parallel universe that looks like the Prime Universe's past. I have given many examples about why changing the past changes the future so give one instance where an alternate timeline is created by changing the past and the JJ Universe doesn't count.
Both are quotes from one of the producers and writers of Star Trek 2009 and Into Darkness. Even if a particular pattern is highly unlikely to happen more than a few times, Star Trek is not concerned about those probabilities. We have the Parallels episode where thousands of Enterprises were in the same area.
The second quote is to indicate that since certain events are more probable than others so certain universes are more likely. Since the Star Trek universe is a highly probable event, then that is why Spock and Nero went to a parallel universe that is similar to their own instead of ending up in a universe where the Force exists and people swing light swords.
Personally, I am not an advocate of this idea and if the many world interpretations is true, then life can get truly weird in the different parallel universes. So Earth wouldn't have humans, but some other dominant species and that the Earth would not be recognizable. If there is a parallel universe with humans on a planet that has the same solar configuration as ours, then the history would be completely different.
I think there are some limits to who Kirk will go after and JJ or one of his associates wanted to add catgirls into his movie. Caitians from the prime universe are past his level of tolerance for getting to know better while catgirls where they look mostly human except for the ears and tail are definitely within his limits.
And you forget that it was supposed to be a holodeck. So the last episode of enterprise is arguably not even in the enterprise universe.
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The Hansen's never got a chance to report their findings they were assimilated.
Starfleet was studying the Borg on earth. If it had happened in the prime universe then some one would have known about it.
And you really cant argue continuity of a time line while also arguing the continuity of another time line.
Either enterprise is first or its last it can't be both.
Not everything you see on the internet is true - Abraham Lincoln
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now you just nit picking ST ENT is set in the prime universe JJ TRIBBLE was not even thought of when ST ENT was on
system Lord Baal is dead
Actually Into Darkness was just stupid.
Don't have to convince me. It has effectively destroyed any future Star Trek movie set in that universe with its interstellar teleporter and magic blood.
The Hansen's went before the Federation Council to petition to study the Borg and Starfleet gave them the USS Raven. So, the UFP and Starfleet knew of the Borg, besides the fact that ENT is in the same universe as TNG and VOY as told by the producers of the show. Also, Voyager referenced the events of First Contact in the episode, Year of Hell.
Umm no, duh.
Green women are Orions because they still look like Orions, why would that change? Those cat girls do not look anything like Caitians so they are not Caitians unless called so on screen
Well done, I don't, and neither does Damon Lindelof. ST canon is what appears in the 6 TV series and 12 films, not anything that didn't make it to screen.
They were not called Caitians in the Film, they are not anything like previously seen Caitians, therefore they are not Caitians.
Norway and Yeager dammit... I still want my Typhoon and Jupiter though.
JJ Trek The Kelvin Timeline is just Trek and it's fully canon... get over it. But I still prefer TAR.
#TASforSTO
'...I can tell you that we're not in the military and that we intend no harm to the whales.' Kirk: The Voyage Home
'Starfleet is not a military organisation. Its purpose is exploration.' Picard: Peak Performance
'This is clearly a military operation. Is that what we are now? Because I thought we were explorers!' Scotty: Into Darkness
'...The Federation. Starfleet. We're not a military agency.' Scotty: Beyond
'I'm not a soldier anymore. I'm an engineer.' Miles O'Brien: Empok Nor
'...Starfleet could use you... It's a peacekeeping and humanitarian armada...' Admiral Pike: Star Trek
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system Lord Baal is dead
'Cuz if it's on Memory Alpha it must be true
Norway and Yeager dammit... I still want my Typhoon and Jupiter though.
JJ Trek The Kelvin Timeline is just Trek and it's fully canon... get over it. But I still prefer TAR.
#TASforSTO
'...I can tell you that we're not in the military and that we intend no harm to the whales.' Kirk: The Voyage Home
'Starfleet is not a military organisation. Its purpose is exploration.' Picard: Peak Performance
'This is clearly a military operation. Is that what we are now? Because I thought we were explorers!' Scotty: Into Darkness
'...The Federation. Starfleet. We're not a military agency.' Scotty: Beyond
'I'm not a soldier anymore. I'm an engineer.' Miles O'Brien: Empok Nor
'...Starfleet could use you... It's a peacekeeping and humanitarian armada...' Admiral Pike: Star Trek
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did you even click the link or trying to be a smart A did you see this http://www.startrek.com/article/exclusive-interview-damon-lindelof just because they dont look like your house cat but walking on twos dont mean they are not the cat ppl of JJ TRIBBLE look at his stupid klingon and how imo dont look like klingon of prime universe im going to take some one word that worked on the move over you any day
maybe you should go updated it seeing you think its wrong and see then what happens
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It is true. They the movie guys) said they are caitians - I personally think they don't care though and the interview didn't seem like he would care or listen, but the regular human with strap-on tails are JJverses caitians. That doesn't mean you have to care about them, though. It's meant to get teenage boys to watch the movie, JJ-Trek is about fast cuts, loud 'splosions and mass-compatible, 'sexy' women. I don't give a squeal about JJ-treks insulting writing and "updated" designs - it's an alternate reality and has nothing to do with "my" Star Trek. I didn't even watch into darkness
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So what? I've never mentioned my 72-year-old sister here yet, does that mean she doesn't exist?
Are you implying that nothing exists in a fictional world exists in that fictional world unless it's seen on-screen or mentionsd? Because that's not how fictional universes work.
Not if timelines branch out instead of replace an existing timeline. Also, I don't see that as proof regardless. But I may be missing your point. Clarify please...?
Yes, I know where those quotes are from.
But that's an assumption that your proposal is correct. Circular reasoning.
At least I think you're trying to convince me that the Abramsverse is a separate reality than the Prime universe. If that is what you're doing, your argument is fallacious. D=
I can safely say I'd be fine with the idea. Say a parallel universe that had humans that left Earth to travel to the delta quadrant instead of the Voth. Or something.
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So you're saying Archer and the NX-01 did exist in the prime universe but not as we know them from Enterprise? That seems like kind of a stretch to me.
He didn't necessarily have to be at the top of the ranks to have influence over people. If anything, that would make him a higher target.
According to Seven of Nine, the events of First Contact represented a Pogo paradox. So the events of that movie were actually part of the "correct" timeline.
The scientists were all assimilated, so their findings never made it home (at least, most of it didn't). Archer and his crew knew of their existence, but not their name or any detailed information about their technology. And since the homing signal didn't reach the Delta Quadrant for another 200 years, that would explain the attacks on colonies in "The Neutral Zone".
Never mentioned doesn't mean they didn't happen. We just didn't know they happened until Enterprise.
"Critics who say that the optimistic utopia Star Trek depicted is now outmoded forget the cultural context that gave birth to it: Star Trek was not a manifestation of optimism when optimism was easy. Star Trek declared a hope for a future that nobody stuck in the present could believe in. For all our struggles today, we haven’t outgrown the need for stories like Star Trek. We need tales of optimism, of heroes, of courage and goodness now as much as we’ve ever needed them."
-Thomas Marrone
Um, they still are not Caitians, a tail and funny ears do not a Caitian make.
It's not my word against a producers, it's a producers against on screen canon, try read my posts correctly.
The Klingons in ID look like Klingons, 2 metres tall? Check. Dark complexions? Check. Ridged foreheads? From Kronos? Check. Called Klingons in the film? Check. They are exactly like other Klingons. Compare and contrast TMP, Chang, and Martok, large differences in makeup, but just as Klongon as the ID ones.
Norway and Yeager dammit... I still want my Typhoon and Jupiter though.
JJ Trek The Kelvin Timeline is just Trek and it's fully canon... get over it. But I still prefer TAR.
#TASforSTO
'...I can tell you that we're not in the military and that we intend no harm to the whales.' Kirk: The Voyage Home
'Starfleet is not a military organisation. Its purpose is exploration.' Picard: Peak Performance
'This is clearly a military operation. Is that what we are now? Because I thought we were explorers!' Scotty: Into Darkness
'...The Federation. Starfleet. We're not a military agency.' Scotty: Beyond
'I'm not a soldier anymore. I'm an engineer.' Miles O'Brien: Empok Nor
'...Starfleet could use you... It's a peacekeeping and humanitarian armada...' Admiral Pike: Star Trek
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So what is different between this temporal event and every other temporal event that I mentioned that dealt with the future changing? There is absolutely zero evidence that changing the past has a new timeline branching out and the current one still exists in all the Star Trek episodes and movies I have watched. All Star Trek episodes that deal with this concept have the new timeline replacing the current one until the crew restores the future to the timeline the crew is familiar with. So where is your proof of timelines branching out in a Star Trek episode or movie? List one Star Trek movie or episode with someone changing the past that has the timeline branch out instead of replacing the existing one.
So there are only two possibilities. Nero and Spock went back in time and completely destroyed the timeline we are familiar with or Nero and Spock went to a parallel universe.
Um no, apples and oranges. If your talking about the mirror universe NX class the only reason that ship appeared more advanced isn't because it was. Remember these technologies were stolen from other races not designed by the terran starfleet and even though they may have been cutting edge then, 100 years later they would be relics. As the tos era U.S.S. Defiant proved when it wiped the floor with a whole fleet by itself.
[/SIGPIC]
No there isn't. It's been stated before that the events in '09' created an alternate universe that did not erase or replace the existing Prime timeline that everyone knows.
It's part of the reason when J.J. and bad robot productions started production of 09 they first wanted to erase and replace the prime universe the response from Cbs was......
And when they tried again during production of 'into Khaaaanness!' to have Cbs to suspend all prime universe merchandise and products in favor of their universe they got J.J. Jamesoned as they rightly should have. Cbs has said time and time again the Prime timeline was not rewritten/destroyed.