Right now, I have 16 picked and after y'all's plan I'll have 8. Tell me, what's 2 + 2? Now how about 16 - 8? :rolleyes:
you're looking at it wrong.
right now, I get to pick 16 passives, 8 ground, 8 space. I only have access to those 16. After season 9, I'll have access to all 32 passives, 16 ground and 16 space, but I will only be able to use 4 ground and 4 space at a time. To compensate for this, each passive has been buffed.
This new system allows for more build choice. In the long run it's a good system.
So being able to choose Omega Graviton Pulse Module (slower borg adaption and additional damage proc) and Regenerative Shield Augmentation (higher shield regeneration) at the same time which are both from Tier 3 Omega Reputation is a nerf? Or being able to pick the best powers to go against the Borg or Undine instead of being stuck with the same powers unless you purchase a Reputation respec is a nerf?
Yes, because the best powers against the Borg and Undine could not only be chosen, but they would be augmented by the other powers from the other reputation systems. To the extent the benefits from having all of your passives at once, working in tandem together, is a better option than a few really powerful passives.
And Cryptic knew this and advertised the rep system as such. These were sidegrades, the equivelant of alternate advancement. This nerf brings people who have gone to level 70 (in a manner of speaking) down to level 55 so fresh level 50's can 'compete' with them.
I'm not going to say the nerf isn't needed, but to delay a change this long after several rep systems are already out -- and then knowing it will incite outrage, what did they think was going to happen?
All of the outrage is deserved, and Cryptic knows it is. You can't blame the people for behaving exactly as predicted, when the rep system was already a hot button topic even before this nerf.
I'm not going to say the nerf isn't needed, but to delay a change this long after several rep systems are already out -- and then knowing it will incite outrage, what did they think was going to happen?
All of the outrage is deserved.
And the outrage would be even greater if they did it in Season 15 when it will be absolutely necessary to do the change. Losing 36 passive powers and 7 active powers is a lot more painful than losing 8 passive powers. It would have been better if they did it with the Nukara Reputation and the best if the did it with Season 7, but such is the life of being a MMO player.
One benefit to this change is that it is no longer necessary to get to Tier 5 in every rep for every alt. Just have people go for the Reputations that they want to play for that character and ignore the rest. So this "nerf" actually helps to reduce grind.
And the outrage would be even greater if they did it in Season 15 when it will be absolutely necessary to do the change. Losing 36 passive powers and 7 active powers is a lot more painful than losing 8 passive powers. It would have been better if they did it with the Nukara Reputation and the best if the did it with Season 7, but such is the life of being a MMO player.
And you know what I say to that argument?
There would still be people like you in Season 15 saying it's better that they do the change now and take away 36 passive powers and 7 active powers than them delaying until Season 25 where you would lose 60 passive powers and 14 actives.
The whole "It's better to do it now than never" is a very frail argument when you know for a fact Cryptic knew beforehand all of these passives and actives were not infinitely scalable, and they decided to delay a change anyway.
There is no possible way they could not have known this was going to be an eventuality, and they went through with it anyway, and continue their business of giving out rep projects to get players to grind for them in order to become more powerful.
You don't. The options previously are "All the passives/actives you earned."
The soon-to-be-options are "A few that you pick and choose at your discretion."
Regardless of whether or not they're buffed, or able to be changed on-the-fly, you no longer have access to all of the passives you earned previously in the same fashion you did before.
And regardless of whether or not it allows you to kill things "a few seconds faster" these were powers that were purposefully put in to be earned and gained the way they were designed. Cryptic knew that rep sytems were going to be business as usual from the Omega system on out.
They knew this, and enticed people to do the grind for the prospect of becoming incredibly powerful. They knew it would TRIBBLE players off if they changed it, they knew what they were getting into with this change.
It is a nerf, not an update.
^^ This post was QFT!
"Regardless of whether or not they're buffed, or able to be changed on-the-fly, you no longer have access to all of the passives you earned previously in the same fashion you did before."
Escpecially that one ticks me off to no end.
If they wanted to reign in rep powers, they should have used all current 5 reps as a base point, and not begin with taking 50% away.
If they wanted to reign in rep powers, they should have used all current 5 reps as a base point, and not begin with taking 50% away.
Dingdingdingding!
If they want to stop the (clearly warranted) howling of "nerf," don't nerf it. Set the cap where it is now, instead of where it would have been if they'd had the integrity (and balls) to pull this stunt 2 reputations ago.
It's also incredibly easy to make the argument, "If the needed nerf/update to the reputation powers are so awesome and cool and yet indistinct and unnoticable from how things were before, why do we need the change again?"
If AdjudicatorHawk is going to say (paraphrasing him), "If we take away 6 nickels and give you 3 dimes, what is lost?"
Then I will say, "Why did you need to take away the six nickels to begin with, if that's the closest comparison you have to make?"
don't bother trying to explain it to them, most wont realise what this means until it hits the holodeck. i tried a couple weeks ago and got hit by the same ignorant people that clearly seem to not understand what is happening http://sto-forum.perfectworld.com/showthread.php?t=1066541
they will start screaming when we have then 5 or 7 Reputation systems and still only can slotz 8 passives out of 56 passive choices then. thats right
currently we have 5 reps on tribble. each with 8 possible passive powers so we have 40 passives over all to chose from.. and now only having 8 slots to fill them..
ultimately it will lead to a stagnation of the rep system after a while as when you dont get shineys for it it isnt of much use.
and most people try to say you have more choices.. NO YOU HAVE NOT.. 5 rep systems. 5!!!!! nw we have 1 passive for each tier on the rep that makes 4 passive powers for each rep. in the new system we dont even have 2 passive powers for each rep. NOT EVEN 2
start using your brain people IT IS A NERF
Alois is absolutely right , with his maths and with his thinking. i just dont understand how ignorant people can be.. and yes i tested it on tribble it still is bugging the hell out of me that i spent hours on grinding this stuff and now i cant even use the half of the powers i could before.
Oh, I don't doubt you've got a BS...but I suspect we're not both thinking of the same abbreviation. :P
Enjoy your Kool-Aid.
There's this little thing called PR.
You run a good point, but then you ruin your credibility by slinging insults and phrases like "drink your Kool-aid" and "spin doctors". Why don't you throw in "sheep" as well, like the good hipster you are?
Are they wasting people's time by limiting currently available options? Yes.
Will the buffs to powers have to be significant to justify docking all these options by half? Totally.
Am I going to support you? No. you're an insufferable TRIBBLE.
There would still be people like you in Season 15 saying it's better that they do the change now and take away 36 passive powers and 7 active powers than them delaying until Season 25 where you would lose 60 passive powers and 14 actives.
The whole "It's better to do it now than never" is a very frail argument when you know for a fact Cryptic knew beforehand all of these passives and actives were not infinitely scalable, and they decided to delay a change anyway.
There is no possible way they could not have known this was going to be an eventuality, and they went through with it anyway, and continue their business of giving out rep projects to get players to grind for them in order to become more powerful.
And how do we know that? It is pure speculation to state what the devs know and don't know. They could be using the experimentation approach to their game so they plan for a few Reputations and Lockboxes and if they do successful, then create more Reputations and Lockboxes. If the Reputation system was not successful, then they could just go to some other system and we just have a few passive powers that don't change the game much.
Also, new EP usually means new direction. So Dan Stahl could have not cared about the power creep caused by Reputation passives while Stephen D'Angelo wanted power creep caused by reputation powers reigned in. Plans change over time at any MMO company and the reasons why those plans change are rarely released to us.
don't bother trying to explain it to them, most wont realise what this means until it hits the holodeck. i tried a couple weeks ago and got hit by the same ignorant people that clearly seem to not understand what is happening http://sto-forum.perfectworld.com/showthread.php?t=1066541
they will start screaming when we have then 5 or 7 Reputation systems and still only can slotz 8 passives out of 56 passive choices then. thats right
If this is the case, then Cryptic is going to just make more of a headache for themselves by buffing every rep power in every rep system each time a new rep system comes out, in order to keep the 'power exchange' balanced.
But we all know that this isn't a likely scenario. This is a one-time buff for all powers when S9 hits, and every subsequent reputation system will simply have more powerful options in order to dangle that carrot in front of us.
Unless they want to go on record and say that they will continually buff every rep power after each season that introduces a rep system.
they will start screaming when we have then 5 or 7 Reputation systems and still only can slotz 8 passives out of 56 passive choices then. thats right
currently we have 5 reps on tribble. each with 8 possible passive powers so we have 40 passives over all to chose from.. and now only having 8 slots to fill them..
ultimately it will lead to a stagnation of the rep system after a while as when you dont get shineys for it it isnt of much use.
Zactly!
We're already seeing this with Space Traits: there are so many already, that 'window' to slot them in is beginnig to look smaller and smaller as the number of Traits increases.
And how do we know that? It is pure speculation to state what the devs know and don't know.
It would be insulting Cryptic's intelligence to suggest that they did not know this beforehand. You can not possibly work on rep system after rep system, without noticing that if this is going to be business-as-usual, that these rep powers can't be infinitely scalable.
They had board meetings, they pay people to map out the future. It's pure lunacy to consider that their programmers were grinding out rep systems and their powers without being able to see that this was going to lead some place bad.
And the fact they were more concerned on meeting deadlines and getting the rep systems out asap to keep people grinding, rather than fixing this obvious eventuality to begin with -- that's the major insult.
I have too much respect for Cryptic to consider the fact they'd be pleading ignorance to the non-stop rep powers stacking up.
Also, new EP usually means new direction. So Dan Stahl could have not cared about the power creep caused by Reputation passives while Stephen D'Angelo wanted power creep caused by reputation powers reigned in. Plans change over time at any MMO company and the reasons why those plans change are rarely released to us.
If that was the reason, then Cryptic should do the ethical thing and come clean with it. Dan has been thrown under the bus before, so it's not like it's a position he hasn't gotten used to. If they're going to throw him under the bus, then they should just do it without the bs they're trying to give us.
Am I going to support you? No. you're an insufferable TRIBBLE.
Pot. Kettle.
Also, why be so superficial and just look at his words? I just saw the same rant as you; except I was mature enough to just see an angry person thru the words, and see the validity of said anger; and I responded accordingly.
I'm probably the only one who thinks this but the rep passives and actives should NEVER have been put in in the first place. Things like this are just numbers bloat that is not needed. By putting in more and more numbers in for the sake of having bigger numbers is just asking for this kind of trouble from players when you have to "balance" the mistake. I would prefer the rep system to just award gear.
I'm probably the only one who thinks this but the rep passives and actives should NEVER have been put in in the first place. Things like this are just numbers bloat that is not needed. By putting in more and more numbers in for the sake of having bigger numbers is just asking for this kind of trouble from players when you have to "balance" the mistake. I would prefer the rep system to just award gear.
Well, they didn't put them in just for the sake of 'bigger numbers' per se (unless by that you mean: 'moar money'). They dangled the rep passives in front of us, because they figured those carrots would make em moar money (which it has). Which is why it's kind of a douche move to then have us do the grind, but then take 50% away later on.
Also, why be so superficial and just look at his words? I just saw the same rant as you; except I was mature enough to just see an angry person thru the words, and see the validity of said anger; and I responded accordingly.
He can be angry all he wants, but unless he comes forward with a valid option himself and try to be constructive all it is is inane crying and whining, regardless of his point being valid or not.
Right now I just see someone on his soapbox putting down everyone that doesn't agree with his complaint.
Ever notice when someone spoke up that was contrary to his opinion he's gone on the offensive and started slighting their intelligence instead of constructing a proper counter-argument other than his usual strawman?
Well, they didn't put them in just for the sake of 'bigger numbers' per se (unless by that you mean: 'moar money'). They dangled the rep passives in front of us, because they figured those carrots would make em moar money (which it has). Which is why it's kind of a douche move to then have us do the grind, but then take 50% away later on.
This is correct. If it was just equipment, then it's a simple matter of rebalancing that equipment. But they introduced a brand new mechanic specifically to entice players to grind their way up the rep systems to get them all.
The powers were more appealing to me than the equipment or costume unlocks were. And regardless of whether or not how powerful my numbers are -- this is something I considered a contract with the reputation UI window.
If I knew then that I would only have access to a few powers at a time, I probably would not have spent so much time getting crystal shards shoved up my shuttlebay for Nukara marks. But I put that time in anyway. I put time and effort into grinding it out.
And to have it 'temporarily' taken away is something I'd consider a breach of contract between myself and the rep UI, since the game did not hold up its end of the bargain in the specific conditions set forth, and is altering the conditions without my input, and is telling me to get over it because there are new players I don't know or care about who want a better contract to enter into.
Well, they didn't put them in just for the sake of 'bigger numbers' per se (unless by that you mean: 'moar money'). They dangled the rep passives in front of us, because they figured those carrots would make em moar money (which it has). Which is why it's kind of a douche move to then have us do the grind, but then take 50% away later on.
The first cut that should be made is most of the tier 1 and 2 passives. Many of them are +30 to energy weapons or +20 to accuracy.
Those aren't powers, they're just gear bonuses really, gear bonuses we really don't need.
Chance to placate on hit, chance to ignore shields or have % damage ignore shields, those are powers and should stay.
He can be angry all he wants, but unless he comes forward with a valid option himself and try to be constructive all it is is inane crying and whining, regardless of his point being valid or not.
Right now I just see someone on his soapbox putting down everyone that doesn't agree with his complaint.
Ever notice when someone spoke up that was contrary to his opinion he's gone on the offensive and started slighting their intelligence instead of constructing a proper counter-argument other than his usual strawman?
I guess I have a rather thick skin. Honestly, rants like that rarely bother me. And no, I haven't noticed his posting behavior. Primarily because I don't pay attention to that sort of thing. There's a handful of regulars I usually recognize, some of whom I tend to disagree with over certain things, but then find myself in complete agreement with in other threads.
P.S. Turns out I wasn't actually responding to him, but to sophus84at.
I'm probably the only one who thinks this but the rep passives and actives should NEVER have been put in in the first place. Things like this are just numbers bloat that is not needed. By putting in more and more numbers in for the sake of having bigger numbers is just asking for this kind of trouble from players when you have to "balance" the mistake. I would prefer the rep system to just award gear.
I agree with this. However, the genie is already out of the bottle, so to speak.
BUT....it is a viable solution to future reputations. Rather than take what people have already grinded for, simply do away with rep passive starting with Season Nine. Problem solved and nobody gets pissed.
BUT....it is a viable solution to future reputations. Rather than take what people have already grinded for, simply do away with rep passive starting with Season Nine. Problem solved and nobody gets pissed.
Do away with future rep powers at season nine and introduce a new carrot to dangle in front of people that will be planned ahead of time not to repeat the same mistakes as the rep powers? Something that actually is infinitely scalable and yet desirable to grind for?
That's outside-the-box thinking that Cryptic needs more of.
All that matters is power. The power of each of the new passives is greater than the current ones. If we take the average value for the power of the current passives and set it to a value of 1, then find out the average value of the power of each of the new passives. So the mathematical question stated 8 > 4 is not correct. It is 8 > 4x. Where x is the average value of the power of the new passives. After all quantity is not always better than quality.
Comments
you're looking at it wrong.
right now, I get to pick 16 passives, 8 ground, 8 space. I only have access to those 16. After season 9, I'll have access to all 32 passives, 16 ground and 16 space, but I will only be able to use 4 ground and 4 space at a time. To compensate for this, each passive has been buffed.
This new system allows for more build choice. In the long run it's a good system.
Yes, because the best powers against the Borg and Undine could not only be chosen, but they would be augmented by the other powers from the other reputation systems. To the extent the benefits from having all of your passives at once, working in tandem together, is a better option than a few really powerful passives.
And Cryptic knew this and advertised the rep system as such. These were sidegrades, the equivelant of alternate advancement. This nerf brings people who have gone to level 70 (in a manner of speaking) down to level 55 so fresh level 50's can 'compete' with them.
I'm not going to say the nerf isn't needed, but to delay a change this long after several rep systems are already out -- and then knowing it will incite outrage, what did they think was going to happen?
All of the outrage is deserved, and Cryptic knows it is. You can't blame the people for behaving exactly as predicted, when the rep system was already a hot button topic even before this nerf.
And you apparently suck at math, but do enjoy that Nerf Kool-Aid. -shrug-
16 > 8 no matter how the fanbois spin it.
20 > 8 no matter how the fanbois spin it.
24 > 8 no matter how the fanbois spin it.
My BS in Mathematics would disagree with you. I'm just going to call this trolling and move on...
At least iconians has well thought out arguments. I don't agree with him, but his reasoning is sound.
And the outrage would be even greater if they did it in Season 15 when it will be absolutely necessary to do the change. Losing 36 passive powers and 7 active powers is a lot more painful than losing 8 passive powers. It would have been better if they did it with the Nukara Reputation and the best if the did it with Season 7, but such is the life of being a MMO player.
One benefit to this change is that it is no longer necessary to get to Tier 5 in every rep for every alt. Just have people go for the Reputations that they want to play for that character and ignore the rest. So this "nerf" actually helps to reduce grind.
And you know what I say to that argument?
There would still be people like you in Season 15 saying it's better that they do the change now and take away 36 passive powers and 7 active powers than them delaying until Season 25 where you would lose 60 passive powers and 14 actives.
The whole "It's better to do it now than never" is a very frail argument when you know for a fact Cryptic knew beforehand all of these passives and actives were not infinitely scalable, and they decided to delay a change anyway.
There is no possible way they could not have known this was going to be an eventuality, and they went through with it anyway, and continue their business of giving out rep projects to get players to grind for them in order to become more powerful.
^^ This post was QFT!
"Regardless of whether or not they're buffed, or able to be changed on-the-fly, you no longer have access to all of the passives you earned previously in the same fashion you did before."
Escpecially that one ticks me off to no end.
If they wanted to reign in rep powers, they should have used all current 5 reps as a base point, and not begin with taking 50% away.
Oh, I don't doubt you've got a BS...but I suspect we're not both thinking of the same abbreviation. :P
Enjoy your Kool-Aid.
Dingdingdingding!
If they want to stop the (clearly warranted) howling of "nerf," don't nerf it. Set the cap where it is now, instead of where it would have been if they'd had the integrity (and balls) to pull this stunt 2 reputations ago.
If AdjudicatorHawk is going to say (paraphrasing him), "If we take away 6 nickels and give you 3 dimes, what is lost?"
Then I will say, "Why did you need to take away the six nickels to begin with, if that's the closest comparison you have to make?"
don't bother trying to explain it to them, most wont realise what this means until it hits the holodeck. i tried a couple weeks ago and got hit by the same ignorant people that clearly seem to not understand what is happening http://sto-forum.perfectworld.com/showthread.php?t=1066541
they will start screaming when we have then 5 or 7 Reputation systems and still only can slotz 8 passives out of 56 passive choices then. thats right
currently we have 5 reps on tribble. each with 8 possible passive powers so we have 40 passives over all to chose from.. and now only having 8 slots to fill them..
ultimately it will lead to a stagnation of the rep system after a while as when you dont get shineys for it it isnt of much use.
and most people try to say you have more choices.. NO YOU HAVE NOT.. 5 rep systems. 5!!!!! nw we have 1 passive for each tier on the rep that makes 4 passive powers for each rep. in the new system we dont even have 2 passive powers for each rep. NOT EVEN 2
start using your brain people IT IS A NERF
Alois is absolutely right , with his maths and with his thinking. i just dont understand how ignorant people can be.. and yes i tested it on tribble it still is bugging the hell out of me that i spent hours on grinding this stuff and now i cant even use the half of the powers i could before.
[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
There's this little thing called PR.
You run a good point, but then you ruin your credibility by slinging insults and phrases like "drink your Kool-aid" and "spin doctors". Why don't you throw in "sheep" as well, like the good hipster you are?
Are they wasting people's time by limiting currently available options? Yes.
Will the buffs to powers have to be significant to justify docking all these options by half? Totally.
Am I going to support you? No. you're an insufferable TRIBBLE.
And how do we know that? It is pure speculation to state what the devs know and don't know. They could be using the experimentation approach to their game so they plan for a few Reputations and Lockboxes and if they do successful, then create more Reputations and Lockboxes. If the Reputation system was not successful, then they could just go to some other system and we just have a few passive powers that don't change the game much.
Also, new EP usually means new direction. So Dan Stahl could have not cared about the power creep caused by Reputation passives while Stephen D'Angelo wanted power creep caused by reputation powers reigned in. Plans change over time at any MMO company and the reasons why those plans change are rarely released to us.
If this is the case, then Cryptic is going to just make more of a headache for themselves by buffing every rep power in every rep system each time a new rep system comes out, in order to keep the 'power exchange' balanced.
But we all know that this isn't a likely scenario. This is a one-time buff for all powers when S9 hits, and every subsequent reputation system will simply have more powerful options in order to dangle that carrot in front of us.
Unless they want to go on record and say that they will continually buff every rep power after each season that introduces a rep system.
Zactly!
We're already seeing this with Space Traits: there are so many already, that 'window' to slot them in is beginnig to look smaller and smaller as the number of Traits increases.
It would be insulting Cryptic's intelligence to suggest that they did not know this beforehand. You can not possibly work on rep system after rep system, without noticing that if this is going to be business-as-usual, that these rep powers can't be infinitely scalable.
They had board meetings, they pay people to map out the future. It's pure lunacy to consider that their programmers were grinding out rep systems and their powers without being able to see that this was going to lead some place bad.
And the fact they were more concerned on meeting deadlines and getting the rep systems out asap to keep people grinding, rather than fixing this obvious eventuality to begin with -- that's the major insult.
I have too much respect for Cryptic to consider the fact they'd be pleading ignorance to the non-stop rep powers stacking up.
If that was the reason, then Cryptic should do the ethical thing and come clean with it. Dan has been thrown under the bus before, so it's not like it's a position he hasn't gotten used to. If they're going to throw him under the bus, then they should just do it without the bs they're trying to give us.
Pot. Kettle.
Also, why be so superficial and just look at his words? I just saw the same rant as you; except I was mature enough to just see an angry person thru the words, and see the validity of said anger; and I responded accordingly.
Well, they didn't put them in just for the sake of 'bigger numbers' per se (unless by that you mean: 'moar money'). They dangled the rep passives in front of us, because they figured those carrots would make em moar money (which it has). Which is why it's kind of a douche move to then have us do the grind, but then take 50% away later on.
He can be angry all he wants, but unless he comes forward with a valid option himself and try to be constructive all it is is inane crying and whining, regardless of his point being valid or not.
Right now I just see someone on his soapbox putting down everyone that doesn't agree with his complaint.
Ever notice when someone spoke up that was contrary to his opinion he's gone on the offensive and started slighting their intelligence instead of constructing a proper counter-argument other than his usual strawman?
This is correct. If it was just equipment, then it's a simple matter of rebalancing that equipment. But they introduced a brand new mechanic specifically to entice players to grind their way up the rep systems to get them all.
The powers were more appealing to me than the equipment or costume unlocks were. And regardless of whether or not how powerful my numbers are -- this is something I considered a contract with the reputation UI window.
If I knew then that I would only have access to a few powers at a time, I probably would not have spent so much time getting crystal shards shoved up my shuttlebay for Nukara marks. But I put that time in anyway. I put time and effort into grinding it out.
And to have it 'temporarily' taken away is something I'd consider a breach of contract between myself and the rep UI, since the game did not hold up its end of the bargain in the specific conditions set forth, and is altering the conditions without my input, and is telling me to get over it because there are new players I don't know or care about who want a better contract to enter into.
The first cut that should be made is most of the tier 1 and 2 passives. Many of them are +30 to energy weapons or +20 to accuracy.
Those aren't powers, they're just gear bonuses really, gear bonuses we really don't need.
Chance to placate on hit, chance to ignore shields or have % damage ignore shields, those are powers and should stay.
I guess I have a rather thick skin.
P.S. Turns out I wasn't actually responding to him, but to sophus84at.
I agree with this. However, the genie is already out of the bottle, so to speak.
BUT....it is a viable solution to future reputations. Rather than take what people have already grinded for, simply do away with rep passive starting with Season Nine. Problem solved and nobody gets pissed.
Do away with future rep powers at season nine and introduce a new carrot to dangle in front of people that will be planned ahead of time not to repeat the same mistakes as the rep powers? Something that actually is infinitely scalable and yet desirable to grind for?
That's outside-the-box thinking that Cryptic needs more of.
No good deed ever goes unpunished.
obscene gesture, vulcan neck pinch, claps, cheers
Unless you originally signed up for quantity rather than quality. That's the divide.
Pretty much everything you ever sign up to is " subject to change"
Rule of Acquisition 8: "Small print leads to large risk."
And you can be just as irritated and outraged if something is changed no matter what it is.