Problem is, STO endgame is very ....stagnant, and under developed. My main character I have played for years. With all that advancement, she should be able to solo an instance that has been in game for years.
Years haven't passed though.
Over four years ago it was 2409. It's still 2409...though, have to wonder if we'll be hitting up 2410 with Expansion 2, eh? Five years of 2409 will definitely be pushing it...eh?
Create a new character, it's 2409. Have a toon over four years old in real time...it's still 2409.
Lets all just face it. Cryptic is just too lazy to do new harder end game, and that's the source of the problem.
They tried with the Voth...had to nerf 'em cause of the players. Tried with the Elachi...had to nerf 'em cause of the players. They've tried it here and there...had to nerf 'em cause of the players. Heck, they've even nerfed NPCs here and there in general...cause of the players.
Not only has there been the massive amount of powercreep taking place...but NPCs have been nerfed at the same time.
And there's still folks complaining it's too hard...wanting more powercreep, etc, etc, etc.
I think you have sort of proved there is a problem no.
Have you ever played a MMO before ?
What would happen in any other developers games if 5 man dungeons became something that could be soloed.
I am not saying it can't be done because I have done it with optional solo. lol
That is sort of the problem... Power Creep has gotten to a point where group content no longer functions as group content.
Now that might be well in good from your point of view... you say so what if I can solo it... everyone can still do it and win so who cares.
Well 1) the developer cares because they have designed there reward system to work based on that mission being a group mission. 2) you ARE going to get bored I know I sure as heck have. The PvE is mindless there is nothing challlenging about it.
So what does Cryptic do release some harder content that I can enjoy and anyone else that can 1-2 man a STF. Where does that leave 90% of the game population that can't solo those missions ?
The issue is clear there is no way one person should be able to pull 40+k DPS and decimate the content.
They have said this is the issue very clearly which is likely why people are not hearing big detailed responses from Jeff... he explained There position in his blog.
Something has to give.... and no they can't just make things harder because like it or not we are all level 50s.... they can't continue to reward fresh level 50s, level 50 rewards if you can walk in as a level 50++++ and clean it up in 60s, when there design intentions for reward on that content is 10min or more.
So they have an issue... reducing rewards for fresh 50s would be game suicide... increasing rewards for hardmod/nightmare mode for you and everyone else that is all creeped up ends things in the same place... if they do that they also have issues in that the new reps are like it or not the end game content... so they are not going to start releasing new content (rep grind mission) that are nightmare mode... and then either lock fresh or unrepped 50s out of it... or just let them be unable to complete it because again they will LOOSE money.
There is no way to achieve that type of balance... so the only real answer is to control what can be controlled. The simple answer to that is.... start by reigning in Passive power creep... and then Gear (they are already fixing some bugged things like borg set 2pc... which according to Mancoms math STILL accounts for over 50% of the games entire hull healing. After that as many have pointed out there are many other creep issues that need looked at... and I think you and many others need to brace yourself. There are more balance adjustments coming. Call them nerfs if it makes you feel better... chirp it like a parrot Nerf Nerf Nerf. Its not a bad word... and EXACTLY what STO needs right now a good old string of nerfs.
You play other mmos so I think you know the real truth of the matter and that is that reps should reward no powers at all. Player power should not be tied into the reps. It's a bad concept and it shouldn't of happen.
The rep rewards should of been vanity items, toys, and titles. That's it.
Reps should be something that helps you to advance and overcome new content. They should be something that HELPS with end game not be the end game.
STO lacks a end game and in place of having one it got reps. In Star Trek Online you do the end game to progress the reps to do be able to do what....? That's the problem, there is no what. So the reps end up being the entire end game and it's a ever expanding end game of reps which of course hurts newer players. It shouldn't of been this in the first place.
Sane MMO: New tier/season comes out with new content and a rep system. The old system is in someway nerfed to allow those that are behind to catch up quicker. For those on current content they use the rep system to help them progress threw the new content and allow them to be able to beat it. Rinse and repeat as new season/teir comes out.
STO the end game consist of reps and content that is and should be viewed as out dated and old being the end game. Why is it a problem if you can solo ISE? It's a problem because ISE is part of the end game.
Star Trek Online needs a end game and it needs to start to look to other games to see how to do it because right now it appears they have no clue as to where to start.
I think you and many others need to brace yourself. There are more balance adjustments coming. Call them nerfs if it makes you feel better... chirp it like a parrot Nerf Nerf Nerf. Its not a bad word... and EXACTLY what STO needs right now a good old string of nerfs.
I appreciate your passion against this change, I too think the implementation is bad - at least not having min of 5/5 passives to go with the 5 reps.
This rep "modification" is at best a Band-Aid on an arterial wound solution - that is meaningless if they don't address the continued power creep being sold through the cash store.
It sends a horrible message that they will cut back a small part of the games power creep which is attained through player "grind" or work - BUT - they make no changes to the pay-to-win power LEAP!
However, all that being said - don't get your self too worked up about this - it's a done deal - nothing you or any other players comments or feeling will have anything but a marginal impact on it's role-out - at most!!
At most I see them changing is to up it to 5/5 passives to match the 5 reps - and that would be a HUGE victory.
Do yourself a favor and just let it go for now - you are not changing their minds and you are not helping your state of mind.
When it roles out - if you really hate it - you always have the choice not to participate in the game. One way or the other players will either adapt to the changes or move on - just a fact of the business. I hope you stay, but just know that at this point you are pretty much wasting your virtual breath here.
Bottom line is that these changes may not go far enough to stop the rampant power creep of the game. It's my opinion that they are starting too late with the rep system changes and not addressing the real power creep issues with this change.
One thing you have to take away from all this - the game needs new players to keep injecting money into it after the older ones have stopped or slowed down - if not the game dies and you lose whatever you worked for anyways. So while changes to benefit new players at the expense of vet players sucks - it's a "necessary evil" to keep the game running for everyone.
And that right there is the wrong way to think! What fun is a PVE match where you can roflstomp (and yes, I'm gonna keep using that phrase because I think it fits quite well) the opposition and not give your teammates a chance to do anything?
I remember going into ISE once with a Scimmy. The match was over in under five minutes. Five minutes. I barely got in enough hits to register. Do you really think that's fair? No. And I don't think that's fair for the people who want in on these things, too.
I must say, I agree with that in some ways. I still think 4 ground and 4 space passives is too low considering the amount of time and effort we put into the rep systems to gain these abilities. But yes, there are a few people out there who can solo the Elite STFs very quickly. My friend bought the tactical scimi and found a respec/build for it online. When we were running STFs to test it out, he ended up practically soloing CSE! Now that's some hard core DPS and damage resistance right there.
The problem is, I don't think the Rep system passives are the real cause of the problem.
Join date is wrong, I've actually been around since STO Beta.
True alters don't have a "main". Account wide unlocks for all unique event rewards!!
I appreciate your passion against this change, I too think the implementation is bad - at least not having min of 5/5 passives to go with the 5 reps.
At most I see them changing is to up it to 5/5 passives to match the 5 reps - and that would be a HUGE victory.
I agree with you. I don't think Cryptic is changing their mind. I doubt they would even do 5/5 let alone 6/6. As people mentioned the 5% increase that the passive skills gives ins't the issue of power creep. It seems Cryptic is trying to solve the problem in the wrong avenue.
As mentioned by many others, Cryptic could make harder content while I keep my passive skills. Honestly, I would look forward to a super elite mode which I would play.
Don't worry as to staying or leaving. I told my fleet mates months ago I will just help till there Fleets are to their full tiers. I already plan to get Space Engineers and possible a subscription to Eve Online again. When Space Citizen comes out, I would look into that. All that money could be going to STO.
Obviously, as mentioned, Cryptic seems to lack a grand scale of competence. As for STO having a player base, maybe if they stop turning off players from the game and improved content. Just maybe some people would subscribe or get lifetime subscriptions.
it scales so there is absolutely no sense of progress, it is as hard at lv. 10 as it is at lv 50, I feel no sense of accomplishment
It's kind of funny how that works both ways and thus doesn't work both ways.
Because it's just as "hard" at level 50 as it was at level 10...because of that scaling. But it's nowhere near as "hard" at level 50 as it was at level 10, because the scaling does not include all the oodles of powercreep that a player has access to that mobs do not.
There's no sense of progress in STO...because there is no progress. The game gets easier and easier as you go along. It's harder at the lower levels than at the higher levels.
If we started off fighting fighters/frigates at the lower levels - moved up to battleships/dreadnoughts - if the mobs became more challenging as we grew in power, smarter, more of them, etc, etc, etc - then one might feel the progress and sense of accomplishment as they overcome greater challenges...
...rather than being increasingly more powerful than mobs that simply aren't scaling anywhere near the levels that the player is.
Literally, how could one feel progress when there is none - how could one have a sense of accomplishment when each new task is easier than the last?
I must say, I agree with that in some ways. I still think 4 ground and 4 space passives is too low considering the amount of time and effort we put into the rep systems to gain these abilities. But yes, there are a few people out there who can solo the Elite STFs very quickly. My friend bought the tactical scimi and found a respec/build for it online. When we were running STFs to test it out, he ended up practically soloing CSE! Now that's some hard core DPS and damage resistance right there.
The problem is, I don't think the Rep system passives are the real cause of the problem.
They aren't the cause of the problem. It's just the lazy way out to scapegoat something.
To PWE, Overlords of Cryptic. Thank you for putting me over a barrel, pulling my hair and calling me Shirley. Truly, thank you.
[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
i3-2100 3.10GHz
8GB Kingston HyperX Fury Blue 1333Mhz DDR3 RAM CL9
ASUS DirectCU II GTX 660 OC 2GB GDDR5
I think you have sort of proved there is a problem no.
Have you ever played a MMO before ?
What would happen in any other developers games if 5 man dungeons became something that could be soloed.
I am not saying it can't be done because I have done it with optional solo. lol
That is sort of the problem... Power Creep has gotten to a point where group content no longer functions as group content.
Now that might be well in good from your point of view... you say so what if I can solo it... everyone can still do it and win so who cares.
Well 1) the developer cares because they have designed there reward system to work based on that mission being a group mission. 2) you ARE going to get bored I know I sure as heck have. The PvE is mindless there is nothing challlenging about it.
So what does Cryptic do release some harder content that I can enjoy and anyone else that can 1-2 man a STF. Where does that leave 90% of the game population that can't solo those missions ?
The issue is clear there is no way one person should be able to pull 40+k DPS and decimate the content.
They have said this is the issue very clearly which is likely why people are not hearing big detailed responses from Jeff... he explained There position in his blog.
Something has to give.... and no they can't just make things harder because like it or not we are all level 50s.... they can't continue to reward fresh level 50s, level 50 rewards if you can walk in as a level 50++++ and clean it up in 60s, when there design intentions for reward on that content is 10min or more.
So they have an issue... reducing rewards for fresh 50s would be game suicide... increasing rewards for hardmod/nightmare mode for you and everyone else that is all creeped up ends things in the same place... if they do that they also have issues in that the new reps are like it or not the end game content... so they are not going to start releasing new content (rep grind mission) that are nightmare mode... and then either lock fresh or unrepped 50s out of it... or just let them be unable to complete it because again they will LOOSE money.
There is no way to achieve that type of balance... so the only real answer is to control what can be controlled. The simple answer to that is.... start by reigning in Passive power creep... and then Gear (they are already fixing some bugged things like borg set 2pc... which according to Mancoms math STILL accounts for over 50% of the games entire hull healing. After that as many have pointed out there are many other creep issues that need looked at... and I think you and many others need to brace yourself. There are more balance adjustments coming. Call them nerfs if it makes you feel better... chirp it like a parrot Nerf Nerf Nerf. Its not a bad word... and EXACTLY what STO needs right now a good old string of nerfs.
Every veteran PvP player knows that with the exception of maybe T4 romulan placate - the rep system is the LEAST of the balance and power creep issues of the game.
Unless they address the pay-to-win - OP doffs/OP traits/OP consoles - then these changes are meaningless
heck - letting people slot 3 purple techs - 2x aux to Battery - Warp core doffs/ damage control doffs and removing AtB off a shared cool down with EptX - is more power and power creep than all the rep passives combined!
6K dps to complete ISE in elite mode. Heck no way. You need at least 3 to 4 times that.
I want to do all Borg STFS alone except for the Hive. I am going have to hit the higher DPS and damage brackets.
You should still be more than able to do them alone.
I regularly complete ISE's with pugs who each parse 6k or less. Even with my PvP healer hitting like 10k we complete them easily. On toons doing 18-24k ISE takes maybe 5 minutes if your ship is a slow-mover.
You play other mmos so I think you know the real truth of the matter and that is that reps should reward no powers at all. Player power should not be tied into the reps. It's a bad concept and it shouldn't of happen.
The rep rewards should of been vanity items, toys, and titles. That's it.
Reps should be something that helps you to advance and overcome new content. They should be something that HELPS with end game not be the end game.
STO lacks a end game and in place of having one it got reps. In Star Trek Online you do the end game to progress the reps to do be able to do what....? That's the problem, there is no what. So the reps end up being the entire end game and it's a ever expanding end game of reps which of course hurts newer players. It shouldn't of been this in the first place.
Sane MMO: New tier/season comes out with new content and a rep system. The old system is in someway nerfed to allow those that are behind to catch up quicker. For those on current content they use the rep system to help them progress threw the new content and allow them to be able to beat it. Rinse and repeat as new season/teir comes out.
STO the end game consist of reps and content that is and should be viewed as out dated and old being the end game. Why is it a problem if you can solo ISE? It's a problem because ISE is part of the end game.
Star Trek Online needs a end game and it needs to start to look to other games to see how to do it because right now it appears they have no clue as to where to start.
I think that even if Cryptic may not regard your post as constructive, I'll generally agree with everything posted above.
I think reps needed more cosmetics. They'll definitely need more cosmetics in the future after they stop offering people the boon of power creep.
But I'll make an exception: reps are often the long version of training wheels for content, when you're talking about longterm, endgame reputations. In a fantasy game where +Spirit tanking (random example) is more beneficial to tanking in a dungeon, reps may support that by slowly providing access to the optimal +Spirit gear for a dungeon.
So in addition to cosmetics and fill-in items, I can see a reputation being a form of dungeon support.
It would have worked better if passives were always on but only functioned in the raids/STFs/zones that they were tied to. So that running lots of Omega missions will make Omega missions easier. But the passives would never stack. That's your optimal MMO functionality in a nutshell.
Then if you want to really emulate the big MMOs, you have a time gated title for flawless performance in a new STF. But you time it so that the extra recognition goes away after 30 days and a rep takes 25-35 days. So that the content gets easier in time but the early players get some kind of recognition. Maybe make it something like 100 Lobi and a title, earnable once per character, and it's only there for completing tricky content before the rep training wheels kick in for anyone.
You should still be more than able to do them alone.
I regularly complete ISE's with pugs who each parse 6k or less. Even with my PvP healer hitting like 10k we complete them easily. On toons doing 18-24k ISE takes maybe 5 minutes if your ship is a slow-mover.
He's talking the amount of DPS needed to SOLO ISE with the optional, which is why he says it's more like around 35k. Because that's without teammates.
I'm really having a hard time believing there are so many people against this, and whose stated reasons are precisely why we need this. It's like some of you have no idea what the problem really is.
For the record, I am aware the DOff system and the Scimirawr are the big power creep sore spots, and more than anything else at least the former needs to be dealt with harshly. But the various rep bonuses are not inconsiderable, and I'd wager losing them will be more impactful than some of you realize. Rep bonuses are an avenue of power creep that must be dealt with, and the method they've chosen is a damn sensible solution.
I honestly think this is just a solution for a self-created problem. This rep system sounded cool but became a grind that became boring from lack of variety (which a lot of the game is plagued since it is mainly grind and loot, not grind/loot/cosmetics/etc, but that is a different topic entirely). This also devalues the work people have placed into the reputation systems up to this point and deters those players from going after any new reputation system.
This does make it easier for the newer players to compete, I definitely have to give that one, but it sounds like a solution to a self-created problem that is the simplest but not elegant.
I think that even if Cryptic may not regard your post as constructive, I'll generally agree with everything posted above.
I think reps needed more cosmetics. They'll definitely need more cosmetics in the future after they stop offering people the boon of power creep.
But I'll make an exception: reps are often the long version of training wheels for content, when you're talking about longterm, endgame reputations. In a fantasy game where +Spirit tanking (random example) is more beneficial to tanking in a dungeon, reps may support that by slowly providing access to the optimal +Spirit gear for a dungeon.
So in addition to cosmetics and fill-in items, I can see a reputation being a form of dungeon support.
It would have worked better if passives were always on but only functioned in the raids/STFs/zones that they were tied to. So that running lots of Omega missions will make Omega missions easier. But the passives would never stack. That's your optimal MMO functionality in a nutshell.
Then if you want to really emulate the big MMOs, you have a time gated title for flawless performance in a new STF. But you time it so that the extra recognition goes away after 30 days and a rep takes 25-35 days. So that the content gets easier in time but the early players get some kind of recognition. Maybe make it something like 100 Lobi and a title, earnable once per character, and it's only there for completing tricky content before the rep training wheels kick in for anyone.
Right reps act as a way to overcome and help you beat end game in the other games. Gear opens up allowing you to beat what you were having a hard time beating. STO tho the rep is the end game, you do the content to work on the rep. Not the other way around.
In Star Trek Online they do not have content that you are expected to work on and to take time to be able to beat other then the rep. When this upcoming season starts the only thing that will not be open is the rep due to the time it takes to beat them.
There should be content that is open to everyone and doable by everyone that allows them to work on the reps. There should be content that is hard and will not be beaten day one. Content that will take time, learning and failing on to be able to beat. Some will beat it faster, some slower but what will help people beat it would be a sane rep system that opens up new gear or other things that would help you defeat what you struggle with.
Having things in game that get people to use teamwork, put in effort and learn from failing is a good thing for a mmo. It helps build community and community helps keep people committed to the game.
Truth be told for all the work being put into season nine, it can all be consumed in day and you could set the game aside till season ten without missing much. That's not good game design.
He's talking the amount of DPS needed to SOLO ISE with the optional, which is why he says it's more like around 35k. Because that's without teammates.
Okay, that just reinforces the point. 35k allows one to solo ISE with optional. There are a number of people with 50k dps. @agresiel pulled 72k - he could have soloed it twice. Quibbles aside, power hath certainly crept.
I'm really having a hard time believing there are so many people against this, and whose stated reasons are precisely why we need this. It's like some of you have no idea what the problem really is.
For the record, I am aware the DOff system and the Scimirawr are the big power creep sore spots, and more than anything else at least the former needs to be dealt with harshly. But the various rep bonuses are not inconsiderable, and I'd wager losing them will be more impactful than some of you realize. Rep bonuses are an avenue of power creep that must be dealt with, and the method they've chosen is a damn sensible solution.
It's time to leave ISE where it belongs. In the past. It's not even a useful measuring stick for anything significant.
It's dated content. That is years old. And The numbers coming out of it are meaningless. They tell you how you compare to others in the same encounter.
They don't tell you how you do against the newer content.
Some of you really are a bunch of crybabies, over a change that is truly minor in the overall scheme of the game and probably won't have a noticeable effect on 99% of you.
Okay, that just reinforces the point. 35k allows one to solo ISE with optional. There are a number of people with 50k dps. @agresiel pulled 72k - he could have soloed it twice. Quibbles aside, power hath certainly crept.
The higher DPS numbers are oft misconstrued numbers that are actually based on a team effort. They're way beyond what most of us mere mortals will ever see - unless we fudge our 1's to look like 7's, lol...
But it is a team effort. 3 guys taking out one side and the other guy on the other side with a Recluse with Weavers stacking so that ISE's being completed in around a minute.
Again, it's freakin' awesome damage that if it weren't it would be common - which it isn't, so it's freakin' awesome damage...and he's got mad skills/knowledge/ability/talent/et al to pull it off...
But it's not just somebody sitting there by themselves dropping out 80k+ DPS.
Megauberawesome job...but they shouldn't be misconstrued as something other than they are. Nothing I'd be able to do in the same ship running with the same teams - not by a long shot, I'm nowhere near that skilled and so he deserves all the credit in the world for it...but it's still a team thing.
It's time to leave ISE where it belongs. In the past. It's not even a useful measuring stick for anything significant.
It's dated content. That is years old. And The numbers coming out of it are meaningless. They tell you how you compare to others in the same encounter.
They don't tell you how you do against the newer content.
There is a reason it keeps coming up....
The first set of STFs are a major sore spot for the devs.
I know where is your proof of that Maestro...
It is simple deduction.
Look at EVERY mission released since Fleet Mission / Romulan Rep times.
How do they work... are they Missions that feel like DPS races. No they are not... why do you think they made them that way ? It is simple really as far back as romulan reputation they realized people where pushing though there End Game Level reward missions way to fast.
Consequently its why most people PREFER to run the old STFs... they are a race to the end. You can finish them as fast as you can finish them. Where as all the new content you can set a watch on them because that is how they work... they have timers and they compete when the timer runs out. Forcing you to play at the pace Crypitc wants. They even went as far as adding 60s forced waits at the start of everything. They didn't do that because they thought great a chance for everyone to group up... its simply there to slow you the heck down.
Now here is the rub... THEY are well aware that people prefer missions with out the timers. The fact that almost everyone is long done there Omega Reps and looking at the ques at any time of day there are still MORE people in the STF que then any of the newer content.
So now the Devs decide they want to do more new content like that because people like that style of mission more... that is obvious and clear... if you remove the required grind rewards people que up for STFS over brand new stuff every time. However now they have an issue because the producer comes in and says oh no no no... remember why we went away from that style of content. We don't want poeple earning 3x faster then we intend them to.
So it is clear from simple deduction that they have decided that in order to give us the style of content we all prefer (if it is obvious from an eyeball look at que numbers it is obvious to there metric data)... well to do that they have to solve the real issue that forced them to move to Timer based boring runs where doing well or not doesn't matter and therefore isn't very popular.
The issue IS power creep... so yes you fix the power creep. Like it or not the trait system IS power creep and it has the potential to be the worst offending version of power creep down the road. So yes it needed to be adjusted.
Next yes you can expect some Doff changes or changes to skills that effect them like globals on skills like A2B... you can expect some form of console over haul... and I have not doubt they will come up with some more ideas that may not have been on all our radars.
However consider the goal... I think its pretty clear the goal is to give us more STF style content which is the type of content that is obviously the preferential game type of the masses. To get there we CAN not be allowed to be completing it on average 2-3x faster then was intended.
There should be a profound difference in power level between someone who rolled a character a week ago, ground out level 50 then pumped out a couple reps, and someone who has been playing a character for three years putting hundreds and hundreds of hours into it and maxing all reps. Phrasing it as "power creep" treats it as a bad thing, when in truth it is the result of effort and a gain in power is the expected and desired result of that effort.
Here is an alternate solution. Since the primary game aspect that is affected by this disparity is in the PvP game aspect, then simply create a mechanism that deactivates rep powers for PvP, and otherwise leave the current game mechanic alone. Problem solved, and with much less fuss.
I understand that the simple answer is often ignored, and I expect that this will be as well. It would be nice if just once that the hard work of PvE players wasn't thrown under the bus because of the needs of PvP enthusiasts.
File one more vote under "leave it at 8/8/4". Want to cap future reps? Fine, that's okay. But don't remove the number available now.
Lot of discussion, gave up after 17 pages. Hawk, you did an admirable job of explaining rationale and reasoning, but it's still too much of a nerf IMO.
Please consider 6 or 8 trait slots each for space/ground instead of 4. Thank you.
There should be a profound difference in power level between someone who rolled a character a week ago, ground out level 50 then pumped out a couple reps, and someone who has been playing a character for three years putting hundreds and hundreds of hours into it and maxing all reps.
There should be a difference...and it should be with the player and not the character. That player that's been playing for three years should...
have such a depth of knowledge about the game's mechanics that the new player's brain would turn to mush after a 15s conversation
be able to fly their ship with their pinkytoes while eating a sandwich, typing on the forums, watching silly cat videos on YouTube, and thinking about what they'll be doing this upcoming weekend while the new player is still forgetting more than half of what they've got for abilities and fatfingering the rest
etc, etc, etc
However, it appears that so many players in this thread would prefer to have everything not be about them - so that after playing for three years...
they know less about the game than they did on day one
everything's on the spacebar so they don't have to remember anything or risk fatfingering it
The 8 Ground and 8 Space passives that we have chosen "define" our characters and playstyle.
Doubling the power and reducing the number that can be active at once possibly changes that playstyle and diminishes the definition of our characters, despite being able to change the powers at will.
I think a system that had 8 buckets for each space and ground with passives that were at the same power level as they currently are would be more welcomed than the proposed change.
To go back to the coin metaphore, our nickels are "rare". We have spent time finding them, digging them out of mud, searching swap meets, bidding at auctions... You're offering newly minted dimes. While the monetary value of the nickels isn't the same as the dimes, there is significant value in other terms, particularly in that the nickels have more "sentimental" value.
If this system is going to go through, I would offer the following suggestion to Cryptic so as to reduce the angst of us veterans while also reducing the power creep: Scale the number of available passive slots with the number of fully (Tier 5) unlocked reputations.
Start with a base of 2 passive slots available. Then with each reputation that reaches Tier 5, it unlocks an additional passive slot.
What does this mean for us veterans that have the 4 current reputations maxed out?
We would have 2 (base) + 4 (T5 reps) = 6 passive slots available.
What does this mean for new players?
They would start with 2 passive slots, then expand their slots with each reputation fully unlocked. This gives the sense of accomplishment many have mentioned. Something to keep the rep grind worth doing that has an effect on end-game content.
This would automatically help with new reputations that are added later (like the pending Undine rep). If a player were to grind out the new rep (in addition to having the other 4 fully unlocked) they would then have 2 (base) + 5 (T5 reps) = 7 passive slots.
Being that each new reputation adds 4 passives, I think adding the an additional passive slot is justifiable. You allow players to use some of the newer passives, without making them totally sacrifice the 'older' ones.
For the visual inclined, it would look something like this:
Every veteran PvP player knows that with the exception of maybe T4 romulan placate - the rep system is the LEAST of the balance and power creep issues of the game.
Unless they address the pay-to-win - OP doffs/OP traits/OP consoles - then these changes are meaningless
heck - letting people slot 3 purple techs - 2x aux to Battery - Warp core doffs/ damage control doffs and removing AtB off a shared cool down with EptX - is more power and power creep than all the rep passives combined!
^QFT
Cryptic, you're not addressing the REAL problem with the game systems. You're only providing a way to make yourselves more dirty money.
I didn't buy an LTS to Star Grind Online five years ago. I thought there was a "Trek" in there somewhere.
Comments
Years haven't passed though.
Over four years ago it was 2409. It's still 2409...though, have to wonder if we'll be hitting up 2410 with Expansion 2, eh? Five years of 2409 will definitely be pushing it...eh?
Create a new character, it's 2409. Have a toon over four years old in real time...it's still 2409.
They tried with the Voth...had to nerf 'em cause of the players. Tried with the Elachi...had to nerf 'em cause of the players. They've tried it here and there...had to nerf 'em cause of the players. Heck, they've even nerfed NPCs here and there in general...cause of the players.
Not only has there been the massive amount of powercreep taking place...but NPCs have been nerfed at the same time.
And there's still folks complaining it's too hard...wanting more powercreep, etc, etc, etc.
You play other mmos so I think you know the real truth of the matter and that is that reps should reward no powers at all. Player power should not be tied into the reps. It's a bad concept and it shouldn't of happen.
The rep rewards should of been vanity items, toys, and titles. That's it.
Reps should be something that helps you to advance and overcome new content. They should be something that HELPS with end game not be the end game.
STO lacks a end game and in place of having one it got reps. In Star Trek Online you do the end game to progress the reps to do be able to do what....? That's the problem, there is no what. So the reps end up being the entire end game and it's a ever expanding end game of reps which of course hurts newer players. It shouldn't of been this in the first place.
Sane MMO: New tier/season comes out with new content and a rep system. The old system is in someway nerfed to allow those that are behind to catch up quicker. For those on current content they use the rep system to help them progress threw the new content and allow them to be able to beat it. Rinse and repeat as new season/teir comes out.
STO the end game consist of reps and content that is and should be viewed as out dated and old being the end game. Why is it a problem if you can solo ISE? It's a problem because ISE is part of the end game.
Star Trek Online needs a end game and it needs to start to look to other games to see how to do it because right now it appears they have no clue as to where to start.
****storm incoming !
Raising ****shields.
I appreciate your passion against this change, I too think the implementation is bad - at least not having min of 5/5 passives to go with the 5 reps.
This rep "modification" is at best a Band-Aid on an arterial wound solution - that is meaningless if they don't address the continued power creep being sold through the cash store.
It sends a horrible message that they will cut back a small part of the games power creep which is attained through player "grind" or work - BUT - they make no changes to the pay-to-win power LEAP!
However, all that being said - don't get your self too worked up about this - it's a done deal - nothing you or any other players comments or feeling will have anything but a marginal impact on it's role-out - at most!!
At most I see them changing is to up it to 5/5 passives to match the 5 reps - and that would be a HUGE victory.
Do yourself a favor and just let it go for now - you are not changing their minds and you are not helping your state of mind.
When it roles out - if you really hate it - you always have the choice not to participate in the game. One way or the other players will either adapt to the changes or move on - just a fact of the business. I hope you stay, but just know that at this point you are pretty much wasting your virtual breath here.
Bottom line is that these changes may not go far enough to stop the rampant power creep of the game. It's my opinion that they are starting too late with the rep system changes and not addressing the real power creep issues with this change.
One thing you have to take away from all this - the game needs new players to keep injecting money into it after the older ones have stopped or slowed down - if not the game dies and you lose whatever you worked for anyways. So while changes to benefit new players at the expense of vet players sucks - it's a "necessary evil" to keep the game running for everyone.
Cheers
I must say, I agree with that in some ways. I still think 4 ground and 4 space passives is too low considering the amount of time and effort we put into the rep systems to gain these abilities. But yes, there are a few people out there who can solo the Elite STFs very quickly. My friend bought the tactical scimi and found a respec/build for it online. When we were running STFs to test it out, he ended up practically soloing CSE! Now that's some hard core DPS and damage resistance right there.
The problem is, I don't think the Rep system passives are the real cause of the problem.
I agree with you. I don't think Cryptic is changing their mind. I doubt they would even do 5/5 let alone 6/6. As people mentioned the 5% increase that the passive skills gives ins't the issue of power creep. It seems Cryptic is trying to solve the problem in the wrong avenue.
As mentioned by many others, Cryptic could make harder content while I keep my passive skills. Honestly, I would look forward to a super elite mode which I would play.
Don't worry as to staying or leaving. I told my fleet mates months ago I will just help till there Fleets are to their full tiers. I already plan to get Space Engineers and possible a subscription to Eve Online again. When Space Citizen comes out, I would look into that. All that money could be going to STO.
Obviously, as mentioned, Cryptic seems to lack a grand scale of competence. As for STO having a player base, maybe if they stop turning off players from the game and improved content. Just maybe some people would subscribe or get lifetime subscriptions.
But for Cryptic that's unthinkable.
It's kind of funny how that works both ways and thus doesn't work both ways.
Because it's just as "hard" at level 50 as it was at level 10...because of that scaling. But it's nowhere near as "hard" at level 50 as it was at level 10, because the scaling does not include all the oodles of powercreep that a player has access to that mobs do not.
There's no sense of progress in STO...because there is no progress. The game gets easier and easier as you go along. It's harder at the lower levels than at the higher levels.
If we started off fighting fighters/frigates at the lower levels - moved up to battleships/dreadnoughts - if the mobs became more challenging as we grew in power, smarter, more of them, etc, etc, etc - then one might feel the progress and sense of accomplishment as they overcome greater challenges...
...rather than being increasingly more powerful than mobs that simply aren't scaling anywhere near the levels that the player is.
Literally, how could one feel progress when there is none - how could one have a sense of accomplishment when each new task is easier than the last?
They aren't the cause of the problem. It's just the lazy way out to scapegoat something.
To PWE, Overlords of Cryptic. Thank you for putting me over a barrel, pulling my hair and calling me Shirley. Truly, thank you.
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the elite stfs are too easy, i see also guy who can do them alone; when you team with these guys, this is really boring and ridiculous.
and why they give retrain token for all; a choice should be definitive, like the choice of a real captain, not a choice made by a kid
Every veteran PvP player knows that with the exception of maybe T4 romulan placate - the rep system is the LEAST of the balance and power creep issues of the game.
Unless they address the pay-to-win - OP doffs/OP traits/OP consoles - then these changes are meaningless
heck - letting people slot 3 purple techs - 2x aux to Battery - Warp core doffs/ damage control doffs and removing AtB off a shared cool down with EptX - is more power and power creep than all the rep passives combined!
You should still be more than able to do them alone.
I regularly complete ISE's with pugs who each parse 6k or less. Even with my PvP healer hitting like 10k we complete them easily. On toons doing 18-24k ISE takes maybe 5 minutes if your ship is a slow-mover.
I think that even if Cryptic may not regard your post as constructive, I'll generally agree with everything posted above.
I think reps needed more cosmetics. They'll definitely need more cosmetics in the future after they stop offering people the boon of power creep.
But I'll make an exception: reps are often the long version of training wheels for content, when you're talking about longterm, endgame reputations. In a fantasy game where +Spirit tanking (random example) is more beneficial to tanking in a dungeon, reps may support that by slowly providing access to the optimal +Spirit gear for a dungeon.
So in addition to cosmetics and fill-in items, I can see a reputation being a form of dungeon support.
It would have worked better if passives were always on but only functioned in the raids/STFs/zones that they were tied to. So that running lots of Omega missions will make Omega missions easier. But the passives would never stack. That's your optimal MMO functionality in a nutshell.
Then if you want to really emulate the big MMOs, you have a time gated title for flawless performance in a new STF. But you time it so that the extra recognition goes away after 30 days and a rep takes 25-35 days. So that the content gets easier in time but the early players get some kind of recognition. Maybe make it something like 100 Lobi and a title, earnable once per character, and it's only there for completing tricky content before the rep training wheels kick in for anyone.
He's talking the amount of DPS needed to SOLO ISE with the optional, which is why he says it's more like around 35k. Because that's without teammates.
For the record, I am aware the DOff system and the Scimirawr are the big power creep sore spots, and more than anything else at least the former needs to be dealt with harshly. But the various rep bonuses are not inconsiderable, and I'd wager losing them will be more impactful than some of you realize. Rep bonuses are an avenue of power creep that must be dealt with, and the method they've chosen is a damn sensible solution.
We can only hope DOffs are hit hard soon too.
I Support Disco | Disco is Love | Disco is Life
This does make it easier for the newer players to compete, I definitely have to give that one, but it sounds like a solution to a self-created problem that is the simplest but not elegant.
Right reps act as a way to overcome and help you beat end game in the other games. Gear opens up allowing you to beat what you were having a hard time beating. STO tho the rep is the end game, you do the content to work on the rep. Not the other way around.
In Star Trek Online they do not have content that you are expected to work on and to take time to be able to beat other then the rep. When this upcoming season starts the only thing that will not be open is the rep due to the time it takes to beat them.
There should be content that is open to everyone and doable by everyone that allows them to work on the reps. There should be content that is hard and will not be beaten day one. Content that will take time, learning and failing on to be able to beat. Some will beat it faster, some slower but what will help people beat it would be a sane rep system that opens up new gear or other things that would help you defeat what you struggle with.
Having things in game that get people to use teamwork, put in effort and learn from failing is a good thing for a mmo. It helps build community and community helps keep people committed to the game.
Truth be told for all the work being put into season nine, it can all be consumed in day and you could set the game aside till season ten without missing much. That's not good game design.
Okay, that just reinforces the point. 35k allows one to solo ISE with optional. There are a number of people with 50k dps. @agresiel pulled 72k - he could have soloed it twice. Quibbles aside, power hath certainly crept.
<(' '<)!!! Exactly. Just.. exactly.
It's time to leave ISE where it belongs. In the past. It's not even a useful measuring stick for anything significant.
It's dated content. That is years old. And The numbers coming out of it are meaningless. They tell you how you compare to others in the same encounter.
They don't tell you how you do against the newer content.
The higher DPS numbers are oft misconstrued numbers that are actually based on a team effort. They're way beyond what most of us mere mortals will ever see - unless we fudge our 1's to look like 7's, lol...
But it is a team effort. 3 guys taking out one side and the other guy on the other side with a Recluse with Weavers stacking so that ISE's being completed in around a minute.
Again, it's freakin' awesome damage that if it weren't it would be common - which it isn't, so it's freakin' awesome damage...and he's got mad skills/knowledge/ability/talent/et al to pull it off...
But it's not just somebody sitting there by themselves dropping out 80k+ DPS.
Megauberawesome job...but they shouldn't be misconstrued as something other than they are. Nothing I'd be able to do in the same ship running with the same teams - not by a long shot, I'm nowhere near that skilled and so he deserves all the credit in the world for it...but it's still a team thing.
There is a reason it keeps coming up....
The first set of STFs are a major sore spot for the devs.
I know where is your proof of that Maestro...
It is simple deduction.
Look at EVERY mission released since Fleet Mission / Romulan Rep times.
How do they work... are they Missions that feel like DPS races. No they are not... why do you think they made them that way ? It is simple really as far back as romulan reputation they realized people where pushing though there End Game Level reward missions way to fast.
Consequently its why most people PREFER to run the old STFs... they are a race to the end. You can finish them as fast as you can finish them. Where as all the new content you can set a watch on them because that is how they work... they have timers and they compete when the timer runs out. Forcing you to play at the pace Crypitc wants. They even went as far as adding 60s forced waits at the start of everything. They didn't do that because they thought great a chance for everyone to group up... its simply there to slow you the heck down.
Now here is the rub... THEY are well aware that people prefer missions with out the timers. The fact that almost everyone is long done there Omega Reps and looking at the ques at any time of day there are still MORE people in the STF que then any of the newer content.
So now the Devs decide they want to do more new content like that because people like that style of mission more... that is obvious and clear... if you remove the required grind rewards people que up for STFS over brand new stuff every time. However now they have an issue because the producer comes in and says oh no no no... remember why we went away from that style of content. We don't want poeple earning 3x faster then we intend them to.
So it is clear from simple deduction that they have decided that in order to give us the style of content we all prefer (if it is obvious from an eyeball look at que numbers it is obvious to there metric data)... well to do that they have to solve the real issue that forced them to move to Timer based boring runs where doing well or not doesn't matter and therefore isn't very popular.
The issue IS power creep... so yes you fix the power creep. Like it or not the trait system IS power creep and it has the potential to be the worst offending version of power creep down the road. So yes it needed to be adjusted.
Next yes you can expect some Doff changes or changes to skills that effect them like globals on skills like A2B... you can expect some form of console over haul... and I have not doubt they will come up with some more ideas that may not have been on all our radars.
However consider the goal... I think its pretty clear the goal is to give us more STF style content which is the type of content that is obviously the preferential game type of the masses. To get there we CAN not be allowed to be completing it on average 2-3x faster then was intended.
Here is an alternate solution. Since the primary game aspect that is affected by this disparity is in the PvP game aspect, then simply create a mechanism that deactivates rep powers for PvP, and otherwise leave the current game mechanic alone. Problem solved, and with much less fuss.
I understand that the simple answer is often ignored, and I expect that this will be as well. It would be nice if just once that the hard work of PvE players wasn't thrown under the bus because of the needs of PvP enthusiasts.
Lot of discussion, gave up after 17 pages. Hawk, you did an admirable job of explaining rationale and reasoning, but it's still too much of a nerf IMO.
Please consider 6 or 8 trait slots each for space/ground instead of 4. Thank you.
It used to be called Mudflation. It's just a phrase to identify it.
There should be a difference...and it should be with the player and not the character. That player that's been playing for three years should...
have such a depth of knowledge about the game's mechanics that the new player's brain would turn to mush after a 15s conversation
be able to fly their ship with their pinkytoes while eating a sandwich, typing on the forums, watching silly cat videos on YouTube, and thinking about what they'll be doing this upcoming weekend while the new player is still forgetting more than half of what they've got for abilities and fatfingering the rest
etc, etc, etc
However, it appears that so many players in this thread would prefer to have everything not be about them - so that after playing for three years...
they know less about the game than they did on day one
everything's on the spacebar so they don't have to remember anything or risk fatfingering it
etc, etc, etc
The 8 Ground and 8 Space passives that we have chosen "define" our characters and playstyle.
Doubling the power and reducing the number that can be active at once possibly changes that playstyle and diminishes the definition of our characters, despite being able to change the powers at will.
I think a system that had 8 buckets for each space and ground with passives that were at the same power level as they currently are would be more welcomed than the proposed change.
To go back to the coin metaphore, our nickels are "rare". We have spent time finding them, digging them out of mud, searching swap meets, bidding at auctions... You're offering newly minted dimes. While the monetary value of the nickels isn't the same as the dimes, there is significant value in other terms, particularly in that the nickels have more "sentimental" value.
Scale the number of available passive slots with the number of fully (Tier 5) unlocked reputations.
Start with a base of 2 passive slots available. Then with each reputation that reaches Tier 5, it unlocks an additional passive slot.
What does this mean for us veterans that have the 4 current reputations maxed out?
We would have 2 (base) + 4 (T5 reps) = 6 passive slots available.
What does this mean for new players?
They would start with 2 passive slots, then expand their slots with each reputation fully unlocked. This gives the sense of accomplishment many have mentioned. Something to keep the rep grind worth doing that has an effect on end-game content.
This would automatically help with new reputations that are added later (like the pending Undine rep). If a player were to grind out the new rep (in addition to having the other 4 fully unlocked) they would then have 2 (base) + 5 (T5 reps) = 7 passive slots.
Being that each new reputation adds 4 passives, I think adding the an additional passive slot is justifiable. You allow players to use some of the newer passives, without making them totally sacrifice the 'older' ones.
For the visual inclined, it would look something like this:
1st T5 Rep: 2 (base) + 1 (T5 Reps) = 3 Passive Slots
2nd T5 Rep: 2 (base) + 2 (T5 Reps) = 4 Passive Slots
3rd T5 Rep: 2 (base) + 3 (T5 Reps) = 5 Passive Slots
4th T5 Rep: 2 (base) + 4 (T5 Reps) = 6 Passive Slots
5th T5 Rep: 2 (base) + 5 (T5 Reps) = 7 Passive Slots
ETC...
^QFT
Cryptic, you're not addressing the REAL problem with the game systems. You're only providing a way to make yourselves more dirty money.
I didn't buy an LTS to Star Grind Online five years ago. I thought there was a "Trek" in there somewhere.