yes pvp that has gear for pvp ya have team rating but only if your that hardcore
Does the LevelCap Increase over there affect those PvP Gear?
To Topic: With all that amount of variable gear accross all those Fleet Holdings they are too late for a level Cap Increase. They should have implemented a Level Cap Increase before they set up Fleet Holdings. Now even Fleet Holdings would get obsolete.
you get a re grind every new lockbox rep so on stop acting like a level cap raise is going to be the end of the world
An a lot of people are already sick of all those reputation grinds. Still a Level Cap Grind Reboot would affect it in a much larger scale than those Reputation Pseudocontent Grinds.
I would like to see the levels renamed, with level 50 going back to Captain or equivilent in name. Vice Admirals, Admirals, and other above commander ranks being related to Fleet Status, but having no difference in abilities.
Or at least give us the ability to use lower rank names as an option. I care less about how others play the game, but it irks me that all my characters are Admiral in name.
Thanks for the Advanced Light Cruiser, Allied Escort Bundles, Jem-Hadar Light Battlecruiser, and Mek'leth
New Content Wishlist
T6 updates for the Kamarag & Vor'Cha
Heavy Cruiser & a Movie Era Style AoY Utility Cruiser
Let me get this straight....it's a bad idea because equipment becomes obsolete? So it's incredibly fun to get to mk XII all purples and staying that way for, say five years? Yes, it's extremely fun to reach the top and not having more progression whatsoever. So much fun...
Does the LevelCap Increase over there affect those PvP Gear?
they have what they call arena seasons that changes the gear each seaon but this only for hardcore that know how to roll their class and know how to act as a team and yes when the level cap goes up that also does aslo affect the gear at the time that why i say this level cap raise is nothing new to me
its something you should look in to if you really love pvp and you can try it free till one toon hits level 20
Or at least give us the ability to use lower rank names as an option. I care less about how others play the game, but it irks me that all my characters are Admiral in name.
This is all we need. Although, I would open that up to certain Titles as well. I would be tempted to be called Master Chef as a joke towards Master Chief.
Ha ha talk about a hypocritical comment, UO was the Grandfather of the Grind.
Talk about a weak retort, UO was [is?] skill-based, NO GEAR LEVELS. Everybody had access to the same gear and the effectiveness was determined by the skill points you chose to grind for. OSI/EA didnt just reset them down every few months to make you spend more time and money re-developing your character, hey here's a sword that only can be used by Grandmaster... never happened in the 8 years I played it.
There was one time they raised the points cap on the individual skills but that was to allow for further hyper-specialization, they didnt obsolete everybody's existing toons (except as no longer being as hyper-specialized).
Let me get this straight....it's a bad idea because equipment becomes obsolete? So it's incredibly fun to get to mk XII all purples and staying that way for, say five years? Yes, it's extremely fun to reach the top and not having more progression whatsoever. So much fun...
So tell me, progression in what? Neverending grind? Is that what you like to spend your time with?
We already have a state right now where, as new gear is introduced, old gear becomes redundant. As has been previously mentioned, fleet tac consoles have supplanted the old mk 12 purples. old mk 11 gear from episodes have long since been replaced by gear from the reputation system, or fleet holdings. A raised level cap would simply be more of the same.
We already have a state right now where, as new gear is introduced, old gear becomes redundant. As has been previously mentioned, fleet tac consoles have supplanted the old mk 12 purples. old mk 11 gear from episodes have long since been replaced by gear from the reputation system, or fleet holdings. A raised level cap would simply be more of the same.
Fleet Gear is different from Loot Gear. And the Fleet Consoles had been a mid-term change over 1,5 year AND it changed one after the another. Yeah still grind based to some extend, but much less than a whole Reboot and mess up.
The most qq was about "oh no, i had thousands of purple consoles in my bank, where can i sell them now for overrated prices". :rolleyes:
We already have a state right now where, as new gear is introduced, old gear becomes redundant. As has been previously mentioned, fleet tac consoles have supplanted the old mk 12 purples. old mk 11 gear from episodes have long since been replaced by gear from the reputation system, or fleet holdings. A raised level cap would simply be more of the same.
Rep gear and abilities are supplemental assets. They do not obsolete existing assets. And they are always better than loot drops. Fleet consoles that are better than Mk XII loot drops are no different than rep consoles that are better than Mk XII loot drops.
Instead we have people saying Cryptic should raise the cap to ~Mk XV fleet gear or a new Vesta II three-pack that has better turn-rate and more hull and 11th console, because single-player leveling systems are the hallmark of good gameplay.
People who want the latter, I suggest they delete their accounts and go rebuy everything if regrinding assets is all they want from the game.
I guess if you want a game you can "win" then an MMO isn't for you?
.....
Who is talking about reaching the end? There are so many other ways to fill a game with stuff that not end up with endless and mindless grind. Grind is just the cheapest way out of developing content or variable parts into the game. The easiest way to keep people busy with dull things and make money with it.
Not everyone is so happy spending his free time with dull repeating NPCs bashing all the time, like you seem to be.
If you are happy to be a assembly line player, good for you. Makes it easy to satisfy your needs with pseudocontent.
It seems to me like most people don't want a level cap because of a bunch of different reasons. Here's what I've seen stated in this thread:
-Level cap would make current gear and ships obsolete: Cryptic has already said that when the time does come for the cap to increase, they'd look at ways of doing it without making ships and gear obsolete. Some of the best stuff is still locked behind fleets and not everyone is in a fleet.
-Game is already over easy without level cap: No one says that you have to beat such and such STF in 1 minute or that you have to get this gear or that gear to be successful. This game has something for everyone and while some gear might outclass something else, not everyone will have the same kind of access to that gear.
One thing that I didn't see come up was someone saying that if a level cap increase comes, current builds will be outdated. It's bound to happen especially once they do raise the level cap, as there will be new skill points to distribute. However, a new cap means that there's new possibilities for builds.
I want to close by saying that if you guys think the game is too easy, try an STF without top level gear. Make things more challenging for yourself so you don't get bored. Leave the top level gear for PvP or whatever you want to use it for. Cryptic is working as hard as they can to give us a game that we can enjoy and when you keep complaining about the game being too easy, it doesn't look good for new people wanting to give the game a chance.
One thing that I didn't see come up was someone saying that if a level cap increase comes, current builds will be outdated. It's bound to happen especially once they do raise the level cap, as there will be new skill points to distribute. However, a new cap means that there's new possibilities for builds.
There would be less trouble if they just would make it possible to invest maximum points at once in both, space and ground skilltree. Less need to level toons, less need to grind.
There's no benefit to raising the level cap. It's an illusion that it creates more game play. Level systems are an obsolete throwback to early game design that can be replaced with meaningful quest design, personal narrative, and achievement/title hunting through open-ended challenges. The only reason it exists in this game is to get you to play more because you want that MK XII gear; it makes you jump through hoops to get "phat lewtz" and by doing so, makes you spend more time playing.
Go here and show your support for a better Foundry!
It seems to me like most people don't want a level cap because of a bunch of different reasons. Here's what I've seen stated in this thread:
-Level cap would make current gear and ships obsolete: Cryptic has already said that when the time does come for the cap to increase, they'd look at ways of doing it without making ships and gear obsolete. Some of the best stuff is still locked behind fleets and not everyone is in a fleet.
-Game is already over easy without level cap: No one says that you have to beat such and such STF in 1 minute or that you have to get this gear or that gear to be successful. This game has something for everyone and while some gear might outclass something else, not everyone will have the same kind of access to that gear.
One thing that I didn't see come up was someone saying that if a level cap increase comes, current builds will be outdated. It's bound to happen especially once they do raise the level cap, as there will be new skill points to distribute. However, a new cap means that there's new possibilities for builds.
I want to close by saying that if you guys think the game is too easy, try an STF without top level gear. Make things more challenging for yourself so you don't get bored. Leave the top level gear for PvP or whatever you want to use it for. Cryptic is working as hard as they can to give us a game that we can enjoy and when you keep complaining about the game being too easy, it doesn't look good for new people wanting to give the game a chance.
Making things more challenging is kind of the point of a level cap increase. Right now things are too easy, because the top-tier content is designed to be accesible to people who have just reached the cap. Is it any surprise we blow through it and complain it's boring?
There's no benefit to raising the level cap. It's an illusion that it creates more game play. Level systems are an obsolete throwback to early game design that can be replaced with meaningful quest design, personal narrative, and achievement/title hunting through open-ended challenges. The only reason it exists in this game is to get you to play more because you want that MK XII gear; it makes you jump through hoops to get "phat lewtz" and by doing so, makes you spend more time playing.
It sounds to me like you would like to do away with levels, gear, anything of that nature at all. So where's the RPG? If that's the kind of game you want to play, you might as well go play Call of Duty.
My main reason for a level cap increase is introducing a system where our old ships are actually used and not gathering dust or used as storage. Promote Bridge Officers to Captain to fly those unused ships. We could have Fleet STFs composed of 5 Admirals where each member brings their own Fleet to fight some insane objective. After all, it took a few fleets to defeat the Cube in First Contact and having content that is almost impossible for 5 ships, but possible with 5 Fleets would give a challenge that is currently missing in STO. To give more challenge, players could just decrease the amount of npc ships in their fleet instead of using common Mk X equipment. Beating an STF with 10 ships when everyone else has to use 25 ships. Also, PvP could be more interesting where 5 Federation Fleets go against 5 KDF Fleets.
Note: Fleet is in this post refers to an npc fleet composed of 4 npc ships and 1 player and not a reference to the current Fleet system.
It sounds to me like you would like to do away with levels, gear, anything of that nature at all. So where's the RPG? If that's the kind of game you want to play, you might as well go play Call of Duty.
Why do you think RPG is about leveling?
Leveling is an out-of-game construct, an external mechanism thats forcefully inserted into the in-game universe as blunt-force way to stretch out the gameplay. It serves no purpose to the in-game universe whatsoever. Its a crutch mechanic to help the crippled game get along down the road.
In fact you can make a much more compelling RPG by embracing the in-game universe directly. For example, you can use rank to limit access to resources without imposing artificial leveling--somehting like, an Ensign cannot captain anything larger than a Frigate, and only an Admiral can captain a flagship, makes for way better RPG than "Mk VI thruster" crutch mechanic.
Its sad really, people have been given absoultely horrible game design by most of the MMOs out there, and are unable to see beyond them.
Most of the open-map single-player RPGs are really good at this stuff, and they usually have no leveling at all.
My main reason for a level cap increase is introducing a system where our old ships are actually used and not gathering dust or used as storage. Promote Bridge Officers to Captain to fly those unused ships. We could have Fleet STFs composed of 5 Admirals where each member brings their own Fleet to fight some insane objective. After all, it took a few fleets to defeat the Cube in First Contact and having content that is almost impossible for 5 ships, but possible with 5 Fleets would give a challenge that is currently missing in STO. To give more challenge, players could just decrease the amount of npc ships in their fleet instead of using common Mk X equipment. Beating an STF with 10 ships when everyone else has to use 25 ships. Also, PvP could be more interesting where 5 Federation Fleets go against 5 KDF Fleets.
Note: Fleet is in this post refers to an npc fleet composed of 4 npc ships and 1 player and not a reference to the current Fleet system.
I don't want to sound like a wet blanket, but just getting a level cap increase would not automatically get you what you're looking for. It's a feature that might or might not be added.
So tell me, progression in what? Neverending grind? Is that what you like to spend your time with?
Neverending things to do, regardless of what they are. We can discuss the model but basically the problem stated on this topic is that someone at max everything (whatever that is) does not want new so he's "top" isn't challenged.
Do you play single pllayer games? Did you ever played an expansion that brings new items? Do you see that as an uplifting opportunity to get new and better things, or do you see it as bad thing that makes your items obsolete?
Leveling is an out-of-game construct, an external mechanism thats forcefully inserted into the in-game universe as blunt-force way to stretch out the gameplay. It serves no purpose to the in-game universe whatsoever. Its a crutch mechanic to help the crippled game get along down the road.
In fact you can make a much more compelling RPG by embracing the in-game universe directly. For example, you can use rank to limit access to resources without imposing artificial leveling--somehting like, an Ensign cannot captain anything larger than a Frigate, and only an Admiral can captain a flagship, makes for way better RPG than "Mk VI thruster" crutch mechanic.
Its sad really, people have been given absoultely horrible game design by most of the MMOs out there, and are unable to see beyond them.
Most of the open-map single-player RPGs are really good at this stuff, and they usually have no leveling at all.
Why do MMOs need leveling at all? Its bull
To you maybe, but Leveling to me is what makes part of an RPG, a game that does not have some form of leveing is NOT a true RPG in any way.
GW2 tried to get rid of the vertical grind, it has been all but abandoned by Anet with no plans for any real updates since its creation.
FF, Pokemon (biggest RPG in existence BTW), Dragon quest, well lets just say there is a reason DnDs mechanics are still around.
Levelling is an out-of-game construct, an external mechanism thats forcefully inserted into the in-game universe as blunt-force way to stretch out the gameplay. It serves no purpose to the in-game universe whatsoever. Its a crutch mechanic to help the crippled game get along down the road.
In fact you can make a much more compelling RPG by embracing the in-game universe directly. For example, you can use rank to limit access to resources without imposing artificial levelling--something like, an Ensign cannot captain anything larger than a Frigate, and only an Admiral can captain a flagship, makes for way better RPG than "Mk VI thruster" crutch mechanic.
Its sad really, people have been given absolutely horrible game design by most of the MMOs out there, and are unable to see beyond them.
Most of the open-map single-player RPGs are really good at this stuff, and they usually have no levelling at all.
Why do MMOs need levelling at all? Its bull
I'd like to grab onto something you said.
"you can use rank to limit access to resources without imposing artificial levelling--something like, an Ensign cannot captain anything larger than a Frigate, and only an Admiral can captain a flagship, makes for way better RPG than "Mk VI thruster" crutch mechanic."
For the first part of that, this is exactly how it is done in-game. The only thing you haven't specified is how you would handle the growth factor in going up ranks. Everyone wants to get promoted somehow. Nobody wants to stay an ensign forever, piloting their miranda(well maybe a few people do, but most don't). So it would have to be done somehow. How would you do it?
For the second part, while the naming scheme for gear, with the assorted 'mk number' format is not terribly inventive, it is actually consistent with canon starship components.
Leveling is an out-of-game construct, an external mechanism thats forcefully inserted into the in-game universe as blunt-force way to stretch out the gameplay. It serves no purpose to the in-game universe whatsoever. Its a crutch mechanic to help the crippled game get along down the road.
In fact you can make a much more compelling RPG by embracing the in-game universe directly. For example, you can use rank to limit access to resources without imposing artificial leveling--somehting like, an Ensign cannot captain anything larger than a Frigate, and only an Admiral can captain a flagship, makes for way better RPG than "Mk VI thruster" crutch mechanic.
Its sad really, people have been given absoultely horrible game design by most of the MMOs out there, and are unable to see beyond them.
Most of the open-map single-player RPGs are really good at this stuff, and they usually have no leveling at all.
Why do MMOs need leveling at all? Its bull
RPGs are all about starting your character as some regular person and eventually making them a hero or villain of the land. So it is all about character improvement. Character improvement can be achieved through other methods as proved by the Reputation system, but leveling seems to be the easiest method and less restrictive compared to other methods. I can improve my character through PvP, Foundry, Duty Officer Assignments, or mission content while Reputation is restricted to missions and raids.
A problem with Horizontal Progression like Reputations is that the enemies stay at the same level of difficulty since an enemy has to stay at the same level of difficulty for a person that just got into Horizontal Progression as a veteran of Horizontal Progression while Vertical Progression like Leveling can make enemies more challenging. After all, it is easier to defeat Borg at level 1 than it is to defeat them at level 50.
My main reason for a level cap increase is introducing a system where our old ships are actually used and not gathering dust or used as storage. Promote Bridge Officers to Captain to fly those unused ships. We could have Fleet STFs composed of 5 Admirals where each member brings their own Fleet to fight some insane objective. After all, it took a few fleets to defeat the Cube in First Contact and having content that is almost impossible for 5 ships, but possible with 5 Fleets would give a challenge that is currently missing in STO. To give more challenge, players could just decrease the amount of npc ships in their fleet instead of using common Mk X equipment. Beating an STF with 10 ships when everyone else has to use 25 ships. Also, PvP could be more interesting where 5 Federation Fleets go against 5 KDF Fleets.
Note: Fleet is in this post refers to an npc fleet composed of 4 npc ships and 1 player and not a reference to the current Fleet system.
But it does give a reason for a level cap increase by limiting how many ships you can command at each level. Rear Admiral can get 1 npc ship, Vice Admiral can get 2 npc ships, while Admiral 60 can get 4 npc ships. And we need a reason for a level cap increase since Reputations are good enough for advancing our characters.
Neverending things to do, regardless of what they are. We can discuss the model but basically the problem stated on this topic is that someone at max everything (whatever that is) does not want new so he's "top" isn't challenged.
It is about an emerging need to waste time again with dull pseudo grindcontent. Time you could invest better than that.
Do you play single pllayer games? Did you ever played an expansion that brings new items? Do you see that as an uplifting opportunity to get new and better things, or do you see it as bad thing that makes your items obsolete?
In a single player game there is no other player you can compete with. So this point makes no sense in this discussion.
But it does give a reason for a level cap increase by limiting how many ships you can command at each level. Rear Admiral can get 1 npc ship, Vice Admiral can get 2 npc ships, while Admiral 60 can get 4 npc ships. And we need a reason for a level cap increase since Reputations are good enough for advancing our characters.
Comments
Does the LevelCap Increase over there affect those PvP Gear?
To Topic: With all that amount of variable gear accross all those Fleet Holdings they are too late for a level Cap Increase. They should have implemented a Level Cap Increase before they set up Fleet Holdings. Now even Fleet Holdings would get obsolete.
An a lot of people are already sick of all those reputation grinds.
Or at least give us the ability to use lower rank names as an option. I care less about how others play the game, but it irks me that all my characters are Admiral in name.
they have what they call arena seasons that changes the gear each seaon but this only for hardcore that know how to roll their class and know how to act as a team and yes when the level cap goes up that also does aslo affect the gear at the time that why i say this level cap raise is nothing new to me
its something you should look in to if you really love pvp and you can try it free till one toon hits level 20
system Lord Baal is dead
This is all we need. Although, I would open that up to certain Titles as well. I would be tempted to be called Master Chef as a joke towards Master Chief.
There was one time they raised the points cap on the individual skills but that was to allow for further hyper-specialization, they didnt obsolete everybody's existing toons (except as no longer being as hyper-specialized).
So tell me, progression in what? Neverending grind? Is that what you like to spend your time with?
Fleet Gear is different from Loot Gear. And the Fleet Consoles had been a mid-term change over 1,5 year AND it changed one after the another. Yeah still grind based to some extend, but much less than a whole Reboot and mess up.
The most qq was about "oh no, i had thousands of purple consoles in my bank, where can i sell them now for overrated prices". :rolleyes:
Rep gear and abilities are supplemental assets. They do not obsolete existing assets. And they are always better than loot drops. Fleet consoles that are better than Mk XII loot drops are no different than rep consoles that are better than Mk XII loot drops.
Instead we have people saying Cryptic should raise the cap to ~Mk XV fleet gear or a new Vesta II three-pack that has better turn-rate and more hull and 11th console, because single-player leveling systems are the hallmark of good gameplay.
People who want the latter, I suggest they delete their accounts and go rebuy everything if regrinding assets is all they want from the game.
You call it grind, I call it playing the game.
I guess if you want a game you can "win" then an MMO isn't for you?
Who is talking about reaching the end? There are so many other ways to fill a game with stuff that not end up with endless and mindless grind. Grind is just the cheapest way out of developing content or variable parts into the game. The easiest way to keep people busy with dull things and make money with it.
Not everyone is so happy spending his free time with dull repeating NPCs bashing all the time, like you seem to be.
If you are happy to be a assembly line player, good for you. Makes it easy to satisfy your needs with pseudocontent.
-Level cap would make current gear and ships obsolete: Cryptic has already said that when the time does come for the cap to increase, they'd look at ways of doing it without making ships and gear obsolete. Some of the best stuff is still locked behind fleets and not everyone is in a fleet.
-Game is already over easy without level cap: No one says that you have to beat such and such STF in 1 minute or that you have to get this gear or that gear to be successful. This game has something for everyone and while some gear might outclass something else, not everyone will have the same kind of access to that gear.
One thing that I didn't see come up was someone saying that if a level cap increase comes, current builds will be outdated. It's bound to happen especially once they do raise the level cap, as there will be new skill points to distribute. However, a new cap means that there's new possibilities for builds.
I want to close by saying that if you guys think the game is too easy, try an STF without top level gear. Make things more challenging for yourself so you don't get bored. Leave the top level gear for PvP or whatever you want to use it for. Cryptic is working as hard as they can to give us a game that we can enjoy and when you keep complaining about the game being too easy, it doesn't look good for new people wanting to give the game a chance.
There would be less trouble if they just would make it possible to invest maximum points at once in both, space and ground skilltree. Less need to level toons, less need to grind.
Making things more challenging is kind of the point of a level cap increase. Right now things are too easy, because the top-tier content is designed to be accesible to people who have just reached the cap. Is it any surprise we blow through it and complain it's boring?
It sounds to me like you would like to do away with levels, gear, anything of that nature at all. So where's the RPG? If that's the kind of game you want to play, you might as well go play Call of Duty.
Note: Fleet is in this post refers to an npc fleet composed of 4 npc ships and 1 player and not a reference to the current Fleet system.
Leveling is an out-of-game construct, an external mechanism thats forcefully inserted into the in-game universe as blunt-force way to stretch out the gameplay. It serves no purpose to the in-game universe whatsoever. Its a crutch mechanic to help the crippled game get along down the road.
In fact you can make a much more compelling RPG by embracing the in-game universe directly. For example, you can use rank to limit access to resources without imposing artificial leveling--somehting like, an Ensign cannot captain anything larger than a Frigate, and only an Admiral can captain a flagship, makes for way better RPG than "Mk VI thruster" crutch mechanic.
Its sad really, people have been given absoultely horrible game design by most of the MMOs out there, and are unable to see beyond them.
Most of the open-map single-player RPGs are really good at this stuff, and they usually have no leveling at all.
Why do MMOs need leveling at all? Its bull
I don't want to sound like a wet blanket, but just getting a level cap increase would not automatically get you what you're looking for. It's a feature that might or might not be added.
Neverending things to do, regardless of what they are. We can discuss the model but basically the problem stated on this topic is that someone at max everything (whatever that is) does not want new so he's "top" isn't challenged.
Do you play single pllayer games? Did you ever played an expansion that brings new items? Do you see that as an uplifting opportunity to get new and better things, or do you see it as bad thing that makes your items obsolete?
To you maybe, but Leveling to me is what makes part of an RPG, a game that does not have some form of leveing is NOT a true RPG in any way.
GW2 tried to get rid of the vertical grind, it has been all but abandoned by Anet with no plans for any real updates since its creation.
FF, Pokemon (biggest RPG in existence BTW), Dragon quest, well lets just say there is a reason DnDs mechanics are still around.
I'd like to grab onto something you said.
"you can use rank to limit access to resources without imposing artificial levelling--something like, an Ensign cannot captain anything larger than a Frigate, and only an Admiral can captain a flagship, makes for way better RPG than "Mk VI thruster" crutch mechanic."
For the first part of that, this is exactly how it is done in-game. The only thing you haven't specified is how you would handle the growth factor in going up ranks. Everyone wants to get promoted somehow. Nobody wants to stay an ensign forever, piloting their miranda(well maybe a few people do, but most don't). So it would have to be done somehow. How would you do it?
For the second part, while the naming scheme for gear, with the assorted 'mk number' format is not terribly inventive, it is actually consistent with canon starship components.
RPGs are all about starting your character as some regular person and eventually making them a hero or villain of the land. So it is all about character improvement. Character improvement can be achieved through other methods as proved by the Reputation system, but leveling seems to be the easiest method and less restrictive compared to other methods. I can improve my character through PvP, Foundry, Duty Officer Assignments, or mission content while Reputation is restricted to missions and raids.
A problem with Horizontal Progression like Reputations is that the enemies stay at the same level of difficulty since an enemy has to stay at the same level of difficulty for a person that just got into Horizontal Progression as a veteran of Horizontal Progression while Vertical Progression like Leveling can make enemies more challenging. After all, it is easier to defeat Borg at level 1 than it is to defeat them at level 50.
This doesn't need a Level Cap Increase.
But it does give a reason for a level cap increase by limiting how many ships you can command at each level. Rear Admiral can get 1 npc ship, Vice Admiral can get 2 npc ships, while Admiral 60 can get 4 npc ships. And we need a reason for a level cap increase since Reputations are good enough for advancing our characters.
It is about an emerging need to waste time again with dull pseudo grindcontent. Time you could invest better than that.
In a single player game there is no other player you can compete with. So this point makes no sense in this discussion.
And..... how do we know that's going to happen?