The klingons have the same end-game content the federation players have. If no one's pvping maybe it's because they don't want to pvp. Removing the war doesn't add more things for your klingon to do. It makes less things.
removing the war would llow me to team with federation players allowing me to team with them for things like colony invasion Defara invasion zone....STFs without making a privite match and much more content i cant lay because there are so few klingons in the public ques matches cannot start
Like most players in STO i could care less and any pvp content
removing the war would allow us to have much more content available for us in the KDF to really play and not be looking at a empty que
Jellico....Engineer ground.....Da'val Romulan space Sci
Saphire.. Science ground......Ko'el Romulan space Tac
Leva........Tactical ground.....Koj Romulan space Eng
JJ-Verse will never be Canon or considered Lore...It will always be JJ-Verse
Tl;DR Do something with the war , don't just leave it (and the players) hanging in perpetual limbo for ever more.
I don't want them to do anything with the war. I like it as a backdrop to the story within the game. I don't want sto to become eve, full of spawn campers and constant pvp battles just to get into esd to get a new ship.
I don't beleive that pvp is the right course for the game, but I accept that some like it and so it needs to be expanded up, just as the kdf eventually got more missions. But if you are going to have a big pvp revamp than it's all about end-game, because it only takes a week to get to end-game. So if the war means anything to the game it's at 50 that it matters.
The game is never going to have closure; and I think that's what you're talking about. Getting rid of the war doesn't give you closure. Having the kdf or feds conqueror everything doesn't give you closure. Games need to be open ended so that new stories can be added as needed.
removing the war would llow me to team with federation players allowing me to team with them for things like colony invasion Defara invasion zone....STFs without making a privite match and much more content i cant lay because there are so few klingons in the public ques matches cannot start
Like most players in STO i could care less and any pvp content
removing the war would allow us to have much more content available for us in the KDF to really play and not be looking at a empty que
They can remove the teaming restrictions at end-game without ending the war. They're already removed in some events.
I don't want them to do anything with the war. I like it as a backdrop to the story within the game. I don't want sto to become eve, full of spawn campers and constant pvp battles just to get into esd to get a new ship.
I don't beleive that pvp is the right course for the game, but I accept that some like it and so it needs to be expanded up, just as the kdf eventually got more missions. But if you are going to have a big pvp revamp than it's all about end-game, because it only takes a week to get to end-game. So if the war means anything to the game it's at 50 that it matters.
The game is never going to have closure; and I think that's what you're talking about. Getting rid of the war doesn't give you closure. Having the kdf or feds conqueror everything doesn't give you closure. Games need to be open ended so that new stories can be added as needed.
You should read my post more carefully, I am not calling for a always PVP system like Eve. I am asking for a system where the war is greater than just PVP and extends to PVE as well. So for example you can take part in some kind of greater territory control system as a PVE player which will help your faction.
While the people who want to PVP can but they also get some of the stuff they want like more and better maps for example.
And naturally if you don't want any part in it then you won't have to you can carry on your merry way doing whatever you want.
Then everyone wins, the war actually feels like it and both PVE and PVP content is added to the game.
And no I don't want closure I want something to do, there is such a thing as story advancement in narrative after all. The control meta game won't mean that everyone is conquered just that for awhile certain zones can either be Fed KDF or disputed.
Having neither faction at war, you have PvP being war games. That is, if you need something that fits Star Trek lore for there to be PvP without the war. This is no different than same faction PvP now.
Hence, the immersion vs. "I want" argument stf65 was making.
What makes no sense is for me playing a game in order to pretend do stuff I coudln't usually do IRL (like war against Klingons) and have a lilttle fun with it, then logging on to my virtual character only to play pretend and then have that virtual char. himself pretending he's actually fighting Klingons. Now that makes no sense.
Did we already cross the line into 'My litle Pony Online'?
I am asking for a system where the war is greater than just PVP and extends to PVE as well. So for example you can take part in some kind of greater territory control system as a PVE player which will help your faction.
The dyson battlezone is crytpic's first attempt at territory control for pve. They're clearly pushing in that direction. People seem to forget that the sphere only came out last november. It's only been 4 months, and season 9 comes in april.
I can see them doing something similar for the fed and kdf war, but it doesn't make a lot of sense if the two groups aren't fighting each other for that territory control. So it really comes back to being a pvp thing.
I can understand wanting more pve missions where the players attack each other's territories to make the war seem more real, but that would require cryptic to make separate missions for each faction. By doing expansions and new territory like they are now where both factions can interact they're saving time and money.
Every character is essentially on their own timeline. It helps immensely to think of it that way.
When you start out as a Fed Ensign, you're at war with the Klingons in 2409. By the time you hit the Dominion content, there's an uneasy cease fire. When New Romulus opens up to you at level 50, the Klingon forces are tolerating you for the sake of the diplomatic relations with the Republic. Then you have to join forces with them to deal with the Iconian/Voth/Undine threat.
Of course, there's nothing stopping you from getting into skirmishes with Klingons who don't recognize the cease fire (PvP/PvE).
On the KDF side, the Federation is constantly encroaching on the Empire and you can pick a fight with Starfleet whenever you want. That's the only part that doesn't completely make sense. It's not in character for the Federation to invade the Empire's space during a cease fire. Any skirmishes would be over neutral or non-aligned systems. Unlike in the Empire, Rogue Starfleet Captains don't remain Starfleet Captains, unless they're working for Section 31.
It's important to note that there is still no formal treaty between the Federation and the Empire at the current endgame. They each have a treaty with the Republic, and that's a better rationale for the uneasy peace than the Borg Joint Task Force ever was.
My views may not represent those of Cryptic Studios or Perfect World Entertainment. You can file a "forums and website" support ticket here Link: How to PM - Twitter @STOMod_Bluegeek
Hence, the immersion vs. "I want" argument stf65 was making.
What makes no sense is for me playing a game in order to pretend do stuff I coudln't usually do IRL (like war against Klingons) and have a lilttle fun with it, then logging on to my virtual character only to play pretend and then have that virtual char. himself pretending he's actually fighting Klingons. Now that makes no sense.
Did we already cross the line into 'My litle Pony Online'?
Its makes as much sense as Fed vs Fed PvP now. So again, problem is?
The reasoning is as immerse as you want it to be. I gave you a reason it could work within lore. Whether you like that or not doesn't make it any less a reason to explain PvP without war.
Its makes as much sense as Fed vs Fed PvP now. So again, problem is?
The reasoning is as immerse as you want it to be. I gave you a reason it could work within lore. Whether you like that or not doesn't make it any less a reason to explain PvP without war.
This is also the most likely thing thing that is going to happen since Cryptic seem to be pushing the peace option more and more in recent updates.
This is also the most likely thing thing that is going to happen since Cryptic seem to be pushing the peace option more and more in recent updates.
It means that they can continue to create non-faction specific content without the "But aren't they at war?" question cropping up everytime Fed and KDF work together.
It means that they can continue to create non-faction specific content without the "But aren't they at war?" question cropping up everytime Fed and KDF work together.
Yeah which is why you can almost guarantee that is what they will continue doing. Gives them more time to work on the next shiny for the C store.
Its makes as much sense as Fed vs Fed PvP now. So again, problem is?
Problem is Fed vs Fed PvP also makes no sense either. When that was brought it gave a devastating blow to the KDF faction and PvP in general, also costed STO quite a few players.
Call me stuborn, but I'd rather keep things as good as they can be rather than just caving in because something similarly stupid has happend before.
Problem is Fed vs Fed PvP also makes no sense either. When that was brought it gave a devastating blow to the KDF faction and PvP in general, also costed STO quite a few players.
Call me stuborn, but I'd rather keep things as good as they can be rather than just caving in because something similarly stupid has happend before.
Problem is I don't think it's really all that stupid, and I think it makes perfect sense in Star Trek. But then I also don't think that the only way to justify PvP is having 2 or more faction needing to fight one another.
That, in my opinion, is a very limiting and detrimental mindset on the direction a games story can move.
Federation vs Federation war games was canon or do we forget the riker on that EP where he take command of one ship to do war game with picard
No one is saying that isn't canon. What we're saying is that wargames are stupid when you're already in several different wars. The feds are fighting the kdf, borg, undine, tholians, mirror universe, and so on. They don't need to have play wars against each other.
No one is saying that isn't canon. What we're saying is that wargames are stupid when you're already in several different wars. The feds are fighting the kdf, borg, undine, tholians, mirror universe, and so on. They don't need to have play wars against each other.
Still need to practice sometime, even if you are at war.
Still need to practice sometime, even if you are at war.
Their computers allow them to have battle drills whenever they want. That's what makes the Peak Performance episode really stupid. They don't actually need to put Riker in an 80 year old ship to do that.
When you start out as a Fed Ensign, you're at war with the Klingons in 2409. By the time you hit the Dominion content, there's an uneasy cease fire. When New Romulus opens up to you at level 50, the Klingon forces are tolerating you for the sake of the diplomatic relations with the Republic. Then you have to join forces with them to deal with the Iconian/Voth/Undine threat.
Essentially, this. When you start off in 2409 (and every new toon starts off in 2409), B'vat is pushing to expand the conflict between Federation and Empire, due to his belief that Klingons need an outside foe in order to not tear themselves apart. Eventually, B'vat is removed from the equation (if you're playing KDF, that happens offscreen, but you may notice you're getting fewer "attack Starfleet" missions); Klingons are traditionally slow to let go of their wars, so it coasts for a while on sheer momentum, but it does doppler back down to mostly-cold war after a while.
Now, I don't know about you, but I assume that all my toons have had years of experience by the time they hit Admiral (my main is balding and has gray hair). That's the true benefit of the Stardate system - fanwanks aside, it doesn't actually tie you down to any specific year. (For most of TOS, Roddenberry and his associates couldn't decide how far in the future the show took place; Roddenberry wavered between 400 and 800 years, Coon was pretty sure it was about 200, some writers assumed shorter or longer times...)
PvP is external to the game itself, and it's up to each PvPer to decide for themselves what their justification is. (Just keep in mind that the Empire doesn't necessarily regard every little small-fleet dustup to be provocation for war.)
I think the best solution is to have the main factions acknowledge that fighting an open war is stupid considering Undine interference, the Borg Invasion, the need for a joint Tholian task force, and their mutual alliances with the Romulan Republic and resulting Dyson Joint Command.
The Romulan Republic can mediate the signing of a new Khitomer Accord, and the Federation and Klingon Empire can settle into a new status quo of...not "peace," exactly, but maybe more of a Cold War scenario.
They wouldn't be at war, but they wouldn't be buddies, either. The Neutral Zone would be re-established, with constant political tension and border skirmishes (PvP) still a real risk. However, the factions would be free to ally for specific joint operations to combat the Borg, Undine, Tholians, Voth, and whoever else poses a threat to their collective corner of the galaxy.
Politically, it still doesn't make a lot of sense...but I think it makes more sense than what we've got now.
...talking to players is like being a mall Santa. Everyone immediately wants to tell you all of the things they want, and you are absolutely powerless to deliver 99% of them.
Problem is I don't think it's really all that stupid, and I think it makes perfect sense in Star Trek. But then I also don't think that the only way to justify PvP is having 2 or more faction needing to fight one another.
That, in my opinion, is a very limiting and detrimental mindset on the direction a games story can move.
I'm not saying it doesn't make sense in ST. I'm saying it makes no sense in a Star Trek Game for me to "play" wargames as a part of the game instead of actually being at war within the game. Cause games are for fun and for letting us do stuff we don't or can't do IRL.
But I'll tell you what's limiting and detrimental for the game's storyline - Cryptic's incompetence and unwillingness to properly develop factions while they want to pretend to have 3 of them.
The only reason they would ever bring peace is so they don't have to walk that extra mile and do engaging and yet specific content for the factions because that would mean more work for them. And as throughout this game's entire history, they always take the easy way out.
Don't missunderstand, I don't even PvP because I have given up on PvP a long time ago due to the completely broken state it's in. I'm just calling things as I see them.
The war is increasing because there's pvp money to be made. If you have pvp then you need a red and blue side. Cryptic doesn't do anything unless they feel it will make them more money. That's why it's taken them so long to even add any pvp rather then rep grinds. That's why it took them 3 years to add kdf content. Borticus has been working on pvp changes a long time. They're not going to abandon that now.
Honestly, look at the figures from PvP games, especially "open world PvP" games. PvP just isn't that much of a draw for gamers or RPers. It will attract certain types of players (mostly those who push the "Pay to Win" model), and they will drive everyone else away (from the PvP aspects of the game, at least, and if the game is entirely "open world PvP," they'll drive everyone else away till the game becomes a vapid wasteland of boredom, and then they'll leave, too -- the history of this trend is rather well documented).
The only way I'll ever enjoy PvP in STO is if 1. it's more than the typical dualistic BS of Bifrucation Fallacy, meaning 2. the New Romulan Republic must become a full faction (which does not preclude alliances), and 3. those who imagine that being in the Tal'Shiar or resurrecting the decadent RSE would be so epic are actually given what they want (in the right way, so that they see that they have even LESS freedom as players than they would have if they hadn't been so obstinate in their devotion to wanting a faction of insanity and tyranny) and we in the New Romulan Republic can PvP against them outside private matches.
Number 2 of course means 3-way PvP, but number 3 means 4-way PvP. 2-way PvP is simply lazy and insulting to the intelligence of the players.
No one is saying that isn't canon. What we're saying is that wargames are stupid when you're already in several different wars. The feds are fighting the kdf, borg, undine, tholians, mirror universe, and so on. They don't need to have play wars against each other.
Every military needs field exercises: test new tactics or simply be in practice. Also seasoned officers should teach a thing or two to new officers.
A joint Klingon-Romulan-Federation wargame (=PvP) is a safe way to bring soldiers together. To learn each other factions' tactics, to start working as a big team.
USA, UK, Germany, France, etc. has their own armies, all nations has their own training; however there are NATO wargames, there are officer exchange programs etc. Because NATO needs to know the strenght and the weaknesses of each member. Ok, I know, NATO is a much closer alliance than Rom-Fed-Klingon alliance in STO but I think the example is solid enough.
So wargames as a PvP background are acceptable imho.
I actually don't care one way or another about PvP, but I just think your argument for having to keep the war going because of PvP is a bit unimaginative. :P
Nothing about PvP being in a game requires two sides to be at war. Or hell, even requires sides.
Also, nothing about stopping the war means that two sides needs to have the exact same leveling experience while leveling.
What we're saying is that wargames are stupid when you're already in several different wars.
Tell that to the soldiers about to serve in Iraq and Afghanistan that they did not need all those "play wars" back home before going over.... they should all just intern over there until they become "qualified" field soldiers :rolleyes:
(Not a bad analogy from a Brit, using American terms :P )
Comments
removing the war would llow me to team with federation players allowing me to team with them for things like colony invasion Defara invasion zone....STFs without making a privite match and much more content i cant lay because there are so few klingons in the public ques matches cannot start
Like most players in STO i could care less and any pvp content
removing the war would allow us to have much more content available for us in the KDF to really play and not be looking at a empty que
Saphire.. Science ground......Ko'el Romulan space Tac
Leva........Tactical ground.....Koj Romulan space Eng
JJ-Verse will never be Canon or considered Lore...It will always be JJ-Verse
system Lord Baal is dead
I don't beleive that pvp is the right course for the game, but I accept that some like it and so it needs to be expanded up, just as the kdf eventually got more missions. But if you are going to have a big pvp revamp than it's all about end-game, because it only takes a week to get to end-game. So if the war means anything to the game it's at 50 that it matters.
The game is never going to have closure; and I think that's what you're talking about. Getting rid of the war doesn't give you closure. Having the kdf or feds conqueror everything doesn't give you closure. Games need to be open ended so that new stories can be added as needed.
system Lord Baal is dead
You should read my post more carefully, I am not calling for a always PVP system like Eve. I am asking for a system where the war is greater than just PVP and extends to PVE as well. So for example you can take part in some kind of greater territory control system as a PVE player which will help your faction.
While the people who want to PVP can but they also get some of the stuff they want like more and better maps for example.
And naturally if you don't want any part in it then you won't have to you can carry on your merry way doing whatever you want.
Then everyone wins, the war actually feels like it and both PVE and PVP content is added to the game.
And no I don't want closure I want something to do, there is such a thing as story advancement in narrative after all. The control meta game won't mean that everyone is conquered just that for awhile certain zones can either be Fed KDF or disputed.
Hence, the immersion vs. "I want" argument stf65 was making.
What makes no sense is for me playing a game in order to pretend do stuff I coudln't usually do IRL (like war against Klingons) and have a lilttle fun with it, then logging on to my virtual character only to play pretend and then have that virtual char. himself pretending he's actually fighting Klingons. Now that makes no sense.
Did we already cross the line into 'My litle Pony Online'?
I can see them doing something similar for the fed and kdf war, but it doesn't make a lot of sense if the two groups aren't fighting each other for that territory control. So it really comes back to being a pvp thing.
I can understand wanting more pve missions where the players attack each other's territories to make the war seem more real, but that would require cryptic to make separate missions for each faction. By doing expansions and new territory like they are now where both factions can interact they're saving time and money.
Every character is essentially on their own timeline. It helps immensely to think of it that way.
When you start out as a Fed Ensign, you're at war with the Klingons in 2409. By the time you hit the Dominion content, there's an uneasy cease fire. When New Romulus opens up to you at level 50, the Klingon forces are tolerating you for the sake of the diplomatic relations with the Republic. Then you have to join forces with them to deal with the Iconian/Voth/Undine threat.
Of course, there's nothing stopping you from getting into skirmishes with Klingons who don't recognize the cease fire (PvP/PvE).
On the KDF side, the Federation is constantly encroaching on the Empire and you can pick a fight with Starfleet whenever you want. That's the only part that doesn't completely make sense. It's not in character for the Federation to invade the Empire's space during a cease fire. Any skirmishes would be over neutral or non-aligned systems. Unlike in the Empire, Rogue Starfleet Captains don't remain Starfleet Captains, unless they're working for Section 31.
It's important to note that there is still no formal treaty between the Federation and the Empire at the current endgame. They each have a treaty with the Republic, and that's a better rationale for the uneasy peace than the Borg Joint Task Force ever was.
Link: How to PM - Twitter @STOMod_Bluegeek
The reasoning is as immerse as you want it to be. I gave you a reason it could work within lore. Whether you like that or not doesn't make it any less a reason to explain PvP without war.
This is also the most likely thing thing that is going to happen since Cryptic seem to be pushing the peace option more and more in recent updates.
Yeah which is why you can almost guarantee that is what they will continue doing. Gives them more time to work on the next shiny for the C store.
Problem is Fed vs Fed PvP also makes no sense either. When that was brought it gave a devastating blow to the KDF faction and PvP in general, also costed STO quite a few players.
Call me stuborn, but I'd rather keep things as good as they can be rather than just caving in because something similarly stupid has happend before.
That, in my opinion, is a very limiting and detrimental mindset on the direction a games story can move.
system Lord Baal is dead
system Lord Baal is dead
Now, I don't know about you, but I assume that all my toons have had years of experience by the time they hit Admiral (my main is balding and has gray hair). That's the true benefit of the Stardate system - fanwanks aside, it doesn't actually tie you down to any specific year. (For most of TOS, Roddenberry and his associates couldn't decide how far in the future the show took place; Roddenberry wavered between 400 and 800 years, Coon was pretty sure it was about 200, some writers assumed shorter or longer times...)
PvP is external to the game itself, and it's up to each PvPer to decide for themselves what their justification is. (Just keep in mind that the Empire doesn't necessarily regard every little small-fleet dustup to be provocation for war.)
You certainly could try.
im sure i could get up a romulan fleet or 10 to come and take it
system Lord Baal is dead
The Romulan Republic can mediate the signing of a new Khitomer Accord, and the Federation and Klingon Empire can settle into a new status quo of...not "peace," exactly, but maybe more of a Cold War scenario.
They wouldn't be at war, but they wouldn't be buddies, either. The Neutral Zone would be re-established, with constant political tension and border skirmishes (PvP) still a real risk. However, the factions would be free to ally for specific joint operations to combat the Borg, Undine, Tholians, Voth, and whoever else poses a threat to their collective corner of the galaxy.
Politically, it still doesn't make a lot of sense...but I think it makes more sense than what we've got now.
I'm not saying it doesn't make sense in ST. I'm saying it makes no sense in a Star Trek Game for me to "play" wargames as a part of the game instead of actually being at war within the game. Cause games are for fun and for letting us do stuff we don't or can't do IRL.
But I'll tell you what's limiting and detrimental for the game's storyline - Cryptic's incompetence and unwillingness to properly develop factions while they want to pretend to have 3 of them.
The only reason they would ever bring peace is so they don't have to walk that extra mile and do engaging and yet specific content for the factions because that would mean more work for them. And as throughout this game's entire history, they always take the easy way out.
Don't missunderstand, I don't even PvP because I have given up on PvP a long time ago due to the completely broken state it's in. I'm just calling things as I see them.
Honestly, look at the figures from PvP games, especially "open world PvP" games. PvP just isn't that much of a draw for gamers or RPers. It will attract certain types of players (mostly those who push the "Pay to Win" model), and they will drive everyone else away (from the PvP aspects of the game, at least, and if the game is entirely "open world PvP," they'll drive everyone else away till the game becomes a vapid wasteland of boredom, and then they'll leave, too -- the history of this trend is rather well documented).
The only way I'll ever enjoy PvP in STO is if 1. it's more than the typical dualistic BS of Bifrucation Fallacy, meaning 2. the New Romulan Republic must become a full faction (which does not preclude alliances), and 3. those who imagine that being in the Tal'Shiar or resurrecting the decadent RSE would be so epic are actually given what they want (in the right way, so that they see that they have even LESS freedom as players than they would have if they hadn't been so obstinate in their devotion to wanting a faction of insanity and tyranny) and we in the New Romulan Republic can PvP against them outside private matches.
Number 2 of course means 3-way PvP, but number 3 means 4-way PvP. 2-way PvP is simply lazy and insulting to the intelligence of the players.
Every military needs field exercises: test new tactics or simply be in practice. Also seasoned officers should teach a thing or two to new officers.
A joint Klingon-Romulan-Federation wargame (=PvP) is a safe way to bring soldiers together. To learn each other factions' tactics, to start working as a big team.
USA, UK, Germany, France, etc. has their own armies, all nations has their own training; however there are NATO wargames, there are officer exchange programs etc. Because NATO needs to know the strenght and the weaknesses of each member. Ok, I know, NATO is a much closer alliance than Rom-Fed-Klingon alliance in STO but I think the example is solid enough.
So wargames as a PvP background are acceptable imho.
And this, yes.
Tell that to the soldiers about to serve in Iraq and Afghanistan that they did not need all those "play wars" back home before going over.... they should all just intern over there until they become "qualified" field soldiers :rolleyes:
(Not a bad analogy from a Brit, using American terms :P )