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KDF needs more counters to stealth

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  • wolverine595959wolverine595959 Member Posts: 726
    edited February 2014
    naz4 wrote: »
    I smell an open invite for Pandas to run amuck vs Evul Klingons in Kerrat. Please dont complain if i get to field 2 balanced teams simultaneously in kerrat.

    Challenge accepted!

    You realize that is what he wants since him and his pug mates cannot fend off the KDF themselves.
    Hey I Used to be Captain Data, well I guess I still am in game but the account link really screwed everything up :rolleyes:
  • wolverine595959wolverine595959 Member Posts: 726
    edited February 2014
    Actually I think we should dust off the KDF fleet and go Fed hunting instead. :P

    Where is that side switching glitch when you need it?

    Now I would be down with that maybe grant me honorary SAD PANDA KDF membership for the event. :D
    Hey I Used to be Captain Data, well I guess I still am in game but the account link really screwed everything up :rolleyes:
  • ussultimatumussultimatum Member Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited February 2014
    You realize that is what he wants since him and his pug mates cannot fend off the KDF themselves.

    Are you implying that the one-man army is requesting welfare?
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  • marc8219marc8219 Member Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited February 2014
    I really hope the irony, and depth of double standards in your post are not lost on you.
    Not double standards, just being fair, I brought up aa because I know that is what feds will ask for if we ask for a console exchange for a nebula console but I said giving them a less demanded one like magnometric would still be fair considering how we always get junk stuff for good consoles like leech.
    iskandus wrote: »
    My apologies to the OP and dear Julius. To anyone who didn't know, I am the target of OP's nerf cry and the raison d'etre of this thread.

    You see, it isn't just the BoP who are at risk, all battlecloaking KDF-Romulans especially are very vulnerable when their cloak "malfunctioned". However, one has to ask why these brave KDF "warriors" didn't spec in Starship Stealth? :rolleyes:

    I mean, these people have the audacity to come complain about a console when everyone knows the most OP toy in this game is Aceton Assimilator? It can be deployed every 45, multiple copies can be spammed from one ship. It kills all mines and almost all targetable projectiles immediately and it deals stupidly high amount of radiation dmg on any ship near it when being fired upon with energy weapons even if the said ship just passes by.

    You know, the funny thing is we were told just before the release of LoR that Feds will not know how to use cloak effectively and that KDF know all the anti-cloak tactics out there. Fast forward not even a year later, you can see all these superior KDF PvPers crying in this thread about Feds cloaking and detecting them. The irony is hilarious...

    You are way too full of yourself, this isn't about you. Sure you can be annoying when you always come in for the cheap shot kill when I am being ganged up on, but thats not the purpose of this thread. Basically it comes down to both sides now having widely available stealth and only 1 side having effective tools to use against it, even if we did get 1 nebula console the Feds would still have better stealth detection because they have both the Nebula refit and retrofit both with anti stealth consoles. If you are such a superior cloaker why are you in such a panic about people having a fair chance at detecting you just like you can do to others? It doesn't stop me from going to kerrat and it wont stop you.
    Tala -KDF Tac- House of Beautiful Orions
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  • ussultimatumussultimatum Member Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited February 2014
    marc8219 wrote: »
    Not double standards, just being fair, I brought up aa because I know that is what feds will ask for if we ask for a console exchange for a nebula console but I said giving them a less demanded one like magnometric would still be fair considering how we always get junk stuff for good consoles like leech.


    Well, the point was that for a very long time the Feds had primarily junk consoles in comparison to nearly everything the KDF had.

    I'm not blind to the neglect the KDF side has dealt with, but that's mostly a ship quantity problem, RP "uniform" and mission content problem - but complaining about loosing good consoles in trade for crappy Fed ones when Fed ones are almost universally bad is misguided IMO, especially when you actually want one of the few good Fed ones :P.
  • marc8219marc8219 Member Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited February 2014
    Well, the point was that for a very long time the Feds had primarily junk consoles in comparison to nearly everything the KDF had.

    I'm not blind to the neglect the KDF side has dealt with, but that's mostly a ship quantity problem, RP "uniform" and mission content problem - but complaining about loosing good consoles in trade for crappy Fed ones when Fed ones are almost universally bad is misguided IMO, especially when you actually want one of the few good Fed ones :P.

    Well the devs don't have to do a console switch although thats the easier route. The KDF is neglected on ships and the preferable solution would be a new low level z-store ship with a console that doesn't have to be op, just comparable to the nebula console. Something does need to be done to fix the disparity in stealth detection.
    Tala -KDF Tac- House of Beautiful Orions
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  • therealmttherealmt Member Posts: 428 Arc User
    edited February 2014
    Dont worry lads, in a few days rage will again be upon kerrat after almost a year! Fullout KDF style no romulan bs prepare for total destruction feddie boys!

    >:]

    5v1 lets do it!!! You will recognize me once you dropped your first feddie tears!!!
    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
  • jaegernljaegernl Member Posts: 506 Arc User
    edited February 2014
    iskandus wrote: »
    That much is clear. The best snooper is in fact a non-sci ship. Anyone who read the OP's post and Julius' subsequent moaning knows it by now. Anyone who has been a snopper knows this as well except those who pretend to know but has a guy in his fleet who knows. :rolleyes:

    Hey, Isk, I'm not moaning. I like it when you show up with your T'varo. It keeps me on my toes!

    I think you missed the point about this thread. It's not about Aceton Assimilators or Tachyon Detection Field. It's about the fact that the KDF have, with Fed Roms around, very limited stealth detection options. A KDF snooper <<<<<< A Fed snooper. I whole-heartedly agree that KDF had the best consoles, pre-lockbox swap. But, with Rommies now around, we've entered a rather new stage.

    edit: Oh, and the 'nasty sci t'varo' wasn't bad spirited. It was meant as a compliment.
    Isaac the Adequate - Level 70 Oath of Devotion Paladin
  • ursusmorologusursusmorologus Member Posts: 5,328 Arc User
    edited February 2014
    TDF console is no more or less faction-unique powerful bene than AA console

    AA is waay more powerful than TDF

    Yeah KDF does not have a way to actively detect like TDF, feds dont have a console that can camp spawn and drain everything that comes up
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  • marc8219marc8219 Member Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited February 2014
    TDF console is no more or less faction-unique powerful bene than AA console

    AA is waay more powerful than TDF

    Yeah KDF does not have a way to actively detect like TDF, feds dont have a console that can camp spawn and drain everything that comes up

    This thread isn't about aa for TDF , I only brought it up in my first post because I figured people would bring it up and I wanted to make clear this wasn't about doing that. That issue has been discussed at length and went nowhere with all of the KDF and many Feds also not supporting it.

    That isn't going to happen. What can happen is either a console swap for something other then AA or the KDF getting a new z-store ship with a anti-stealth console.
    Tala -KDF Tac- House of Beautiful Orions
  • iskandusiskandus Member Posts: 1,062 Arc User
    edited February 2014
    marc8219 wrote: »
    Well the devs don't have to do a console switch although thats the easier route. The KDF is neglected on ships and the preferable solution would be a new low level z-store ship with a console that doesn't have to be op, just comparable to the nebula console. Something does need to be done to fix the disparity in stealth detection.

    Translation : "Dev, please give us a TDF-like console in a cheapo C-store ship so that we don't have to spend like 5000 Zen for it. Since it's a C-Store ship, we don't have to trade something valuable like AA in return."

    :rolleyes:

    I have a solution with the AA OP toy as well. Dev, can you please release a new Fed ship, preferably low level c-store ship that allows Fed to release non-targetable nano-drones that will seek out hijack weapon platforms in space, including but not limited to AA. That way, Fed still won't have access to AA in order to maintain balance but it will deter Klinks from endlessly spamming AA all over the place.
  • iskandusiskandus Member Posts: 1,062 Arc User
    edited February 2014
    jaegernl wrote: »
    Hey, Isk, I'm not moaning. I like it when you show up with your T'varo. It keeps me on my toes!

    I think you missed the point about this thread. It's not about Aceton Assimilators or Tachyon Detection Field. It's about the fact that the KDF have, with Fed Roms around, very limited stealth detection options. A KDF snooper <<<<<< A Fed snooper. I whole-heartedly agree that KDF had the best consoles, pre-lockbox swap. But, with Rommies now around, we've entered a rather new stage.

    edit: Oh, and the 'nasty sci t'varo' wasn't bad spirited. It was meant as a compliment.

    I know Julius, I will always love you even though you said two days ago you will never forgive me. ;)
  • marc8219marc8219 Member Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited February 2014
    iskandus wrote: »
    Translation : "Dev, please give us a TDF-like console in a cheapo C-store ship so that we don't have to spend like 5000 Zen for it. Since it's a C-Store ship, we don't have to trade something valuable like AA in return."

    :rolleyes:

    I have a solution with the AA OP toy as well. Dev, can you please release a new Fed ship, preferably low level c-store ship that allows Fed to release non-targetable nano-drones that will seek out hijack weapon platforms in space, including but not limited to AA. That way, Fed still won't have access to AA in order to maintain balance but it will deter Klinks from endlessly spamming AA all over the place.

    Stop trying to derail the thread. Like I said Feds getting AA has been discussed at length already in other threads. This is about the stealth detection disparity that exists between both factions. Nobody is trying to specifically target you or your build like you were trying to say, there is no HOBO conspiracy against you as much as you may like to think. This is just about game balance to wear stealth detection is concerned. Your build won't be irrelevant, you may have to deal with some competition though if we do get a good console, this will make things more fun and interesting for you in kerrat.

    Also the reason i suggested a low level ship is because consoles from end game ships can only be used on that ship, and endgame ships sell anyway. Low level ships only sell if they have good consoles that can be used on other ships.
    Tala -KDF Tac- House of Beautiful Orions
  • iskandusiskandus Member Posts: 1,062 Arc User
    edited February 2014
    Actually I think we should dust off the KDF fleet and go Fed hunting instead. :P

    Where is that side switching glitch when you need it?

    LMAO. By all means, please do dust off your KDF fleet. Kerrat is not Arena. If you think your 5-man team is going to stand any better chance than HOBO or ISC from being poached, you are beyond delusional especially considering how rusty all of you would be in ships that you don't usually play with and in environment that you are not very familiar with. Once you are KDF, all of your stealth detection tactics go out of the window. And please do bring your snooper(s) in a KDF. If there is a way to make effective snooper, the HOBO and co. would have already done so. Do you seriously believe you are smarter than all these people!? :rolleyes:

    This is perfect case of somebody who is overconfident / who think they are invincible. Mind you, in most cases, Feds can fend off KDF premades in Kerrat because there are some really good Fed regulars there and Feds usually have the advantage being more numerous. In any event, if angry Panda dare to show up in Kerrat as a group in KDF, I will make sure all the major public channels know about it and make sure a lot of Feds will come in to do some Panda hunting. Trust me, there will be no lack of takers who will be more than eager to avenge your deliberate and malicious pug stomping in the queues.
  • marc8219marc8219 Member Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited February 2014
    iskandus wrote: »
    LMAO. By all means, please do dust off your KDF fleet. Kerrat is not Arena. If you think your 5-man team is going to stand any better chance than HOBO or ISC from being poached, you are beyond delusional especially considering how rusty all of you would be in ships that you don't usually play with and in environment that you are not very familiar with. Once you are KDF, all of your stealth detection tactics go out of the window. And please do bring your snooper(s) in a KDF. If there is a way to make effective snooper, the HOBO and co. would have already done so. Do you seriously you are smarter than all these people!? :rolleyes: This is perfect case of somebody who is overconfident / who think they are invincible. Mind you, in most cases, Feds can fend off KDF premades in Kerrat because there are some really good Fed regulars there and Feds usually have the advantage being more numerous. In any event, if angry Panda dare to show up in Kerrat as a group in KDF, I will make sure all the major public channels know about it and make sure a lot of Feds will come in to do some Panda hunting. Trust me, there will be no lack of takers who will be more than eager to avenge your deliberate and malicious pug stomping in the queues.

    So you are now admitting there is a stealth detection disparity, how is that fair? And yes we have tried snooping, most of the time it isn't effective because of how op romulan boffs stealth bonus is and how KDF gets nothing to compensate for stealth power creep.
    Tala -KDF Tac- House of Beautiful Orions
  • iskandusiskandus Member Posts: 1,062 Arc User
    edited February 2014
    marc8219 wrote: »
    So you are now admitting there is a stealth detection disparity, how is that fair? And yes we have tried snooping, most of the time it isn't effective because of how op romulan boffs stealth bonus is and how KDF gets nothing to compensate for stealth power creep.

    I never suggested otherwise. KDF still have many cheesy toys like AA and Elite Interceptors, especially with these two used in combination with each other. Tell me, how do you combat all these super annoying pets sandwiched in a sea of AA where any Fed Cruiser who FAW will kill itself first?

    Like I said, we were told just before LoR by Klinks that giving Feds the ability to cloak and battlecloak is not an issue - look at who is crying now.
  • marc8219marc8219 Member Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited February 2014
    iskandus wrote: »
    I never suggested otherwise. KDF still have many cheesy toys like AA and Elite Interceptors, especially with these two used in combination with each other. Tell me, how do you combat all these super annoying pets sandwiched in a sea of AA where any Fed Cruiser who FAW will kill itself first?

    Like I said, we were told just before LoR by Klinks that giving Feds the ability to cloak and battlecloak is not an issue - look at who is crying now.


    Ok so since you agree there is stealth detection disparity, your only justification for maintaining it is because we have "other cheesy toys". Well Feds have loads of the same too, you get most of our cheese consoles, you get yellowstones instead of elite interceptors which are just as good if not better. The only real difference is AA, but its not really so OP anymore, mine gets killed all the time, and FAW can actually blow these up too with all the procs available, I do it all the time when playing a Fed. I don't think AA will be given to Feds as threads about that all KDF and many feds were against it because they don't want it in FvF, instead I think Feds also should get newer consoles in low level ships that are more useful then most of their previous z-store consoles and the stealth detection disparity should be fixed.
    Tala -KDF Tac- House of Beautiful Orions
  • brandonflbrandonfl Member Posts: 892
    edited February 2014
    For the record, there is more than 1 KDF only member in Pandas, most of them hang out in Ker'rat a lot. The experience in KDF Ships Gap may not be as large as you'd like to think.
    LOLSTO
  • p2wsucksp2wsucks Member Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited February 2014
    Idk, I'd kinda like if the Feds had this. There's very little that separates the factions anymore. Usually, I find max aux is enough to hide and max aux +epta w/a KDF Rommy Sci ship sees most cloakers w/in 5+km.

    OT, they really need to fix NPCs/pets maintaining target on cloaked ships. Was messing around testing earlier w/Saxfire and even cloaked his skulls would maintain target and actively shoot/ram me if I was w/in 10km. They maintain lock out to 30km. This has been going on at least since pinning was introduced.
    [Zone] Dack@****: cowards can't take a fed 1 on 1 crinckley cowards Hahahaha you smell like flowers
    Random Quote from Kerrat
    "Sumlobus@****: your mums eat Iced Targ Poo"
    C&H Fed banter
  • virusdancervirusdancer Member Posts: 18,687 Arc User
    edited February 2014
    I'm kind of surprised that Cryptic hasn't made both TDF/AA available through the Romulan Embassy since the release of LoR...skipping the Lockbox angle, and instead playing up the "treacherous" Romulan angle.

    Heck, surprised they haven't gone that route for the remaining faction consoles.

    Either way though, Stealth is in such a dismal place - using a slot for TDF is kind of a waste when Perception can be covered in so many other ways. Sci B'rel, spare BOFFs, Jem Deflector, EPtA3, directing the rest of the guys toward the target, getting in position, switch BOFFs, decloak, and let the vape begin, eh? Picture that Sci Fleet B'rel, 2x Nov (well, whatever fancy Zen versions come out), and a pair of Fleet Norgh once the Raiders grab Flanking...all sorts of fun one could have.

    In the end, with all the stuff that's supposed to be coming throughout the year - well - figure there are going to be far worse things to complain about down the road, eh?
  • marc8219marc8219 Member Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited February 2014
    I'm kind of surprised that Cryptic hasn't made both TDF/AA available through the Romulan Embassy since the release of LoR...skipping the Lockbox angle, and instead playing up the "treacherous" Romulan angle.

    Heck, surprised they haven't gone that route for the remaining faction consoles.

    Either way though, Stealth is in such a dismal place - using a slot for TDF is kind of a waste when Perception can be covered in so many other ways. Sci B'rel, spare BOFFs, Jem Deflector, EPtA3, directing the rest of the guys toward the target, getting in position, switch BOFFs, decloak, and let the vape begin, eh? Picture that Sci Fleet B'rel, 2x Nov (well, whatever fancy Zen versions come out), and a pair of Fleet Norgh once the Raiders grab Flanking...all sorts of fun one could have.

    In the end, with all the stuff that's supposed to be coming throughout the year - well - figure there are going to be far worse things to complain about down the road, eh?

    I play a sci brel sometimes and only have limited success with this due too how overpowered romulan stealth is because of their boffs, but TDF helps feds overcome this advantage while KDF has nothing comparable.
    Tala -KDF Tac- House of Beautiful Orions
  • chrisbrown12009chrisbrown12009 Member Posts: 790 Arc User
    edited February 2014
    X is OP, please nerf.


    My god people, i was in Ker'rat today and was forced out of cloak TWICE by a voth sciship. I was in an Aves class with at least 70-80 aux power. Stealth is fine.
  • iskandusiskandus Member Posts: 1,062 Arc User
    edited February 2014

    Either way though, Stealth is in such a dismal place - using a slot for TDF is kind of a waste when Perception can be covered in so many other ways. Sci B'rel, spare BOFFs, Jem Deflector, EPtA3, directing the rest of the guys toward the target, getting in position, switch BOFFs, decloak, and let the vape begin, eh? Picture that Sci Fleet B'rel, 2x Nov (well, whatever fancy Zen versions come out), and a pair of Fleet Norgh once the Raiders grab Flanking...all sorts of fun one could have.

    In the end, with all the stuff that's supposed to be coming throughout the year - well - figure there are going to be far worse things to complain about down the road, eh?

    I don't agree with what you said. In my Fed Sci Palisade, his passive stealth detection is indeed very strong, something like 500+ SDR just for sitting there doing nothing and EPTA 1. I am actually surprised you said that given you are one of those who really hate the TDF snooping. You went as far as saying it makes you not want to play the game anymore.

    It is true there are many other ways to compensate for perception, though none of them as efficient as taking one single console slot. TDF as a console also passively boost your Starship Sensor skills which can be beneficial in clearing up some jamming/scrambling related debuffs.

    True story, Barg and his alt toon, Barg 2 made a point of trying to ambush "K dorky" a couples day ago while the latter is busy playing cat and mouse with Busty. Barg 2 was in a Sci B'rel and himself a Sci with Sensor Scan. Barg 2 also geared up with PSW, doing all he can to just trying to hunt down that annoying snooper. First, Barg 2 Sensor Scanned, which in fact alerted K'Vork to his presence. Then Barg 2 thought he was super smart, he in fact spotted the Nukara mines hidden under their own MES, so he promptly flew towards Busty and PSW. Those mines were left for Busty, so he killed the mines. In fact, K'Vork was far from those mines. Suffice to say less than 15 seconds later, Barg was star dust due the following sequence : Sensor Scaned + TDF + Quantum Torpedo Spread III. In a span of 20 minutes, Barg 2 tried to snoop out K'Vork but instead got blown up 3 times. Next day, Barg again showed up, immediately blown up and so he quickly changed instance, never to be heard again.

    In his own words, Barg described himself as a tactical Sci B'rel but his attempt to snoop out K'Vork failed miserably and instead, he died times after times instead. Seriously, he really didn't have any success at all. We are talking about just barely a week ago.

    In another case, a Sci Klink in a B'Rel, whom I don't really know was snooped out under full scan, as he was cloaked and stationary. I was alerted to his presence and came in quickly. At about 8-9 KM out, I could see him, and a few Torpedo later he was blown up. What was interesting is what he said following that and I quote : "Gf, I didn't see you coming." My reply : "Of course you didn't, I was cloaked." His reply : "I was going to type something so I cloaked, activated sensor scan and EPTA, should have been able to detect you." Clearly, he was doing exactly what you thought he should do but at 8-9KM out, I could see him but he couldn't see me. I am not familiar with Klink ship but isn't a Sci B'Rel a science vessel? If so, his ship should have better base sensors than my warbird. It still didn't matter though. My SDR is clearly superior.

    These recent examples showed you Sci B'rel is no match no matter how hard they try. You are of course welcome to lead by example and come to Kerrat and show everyone how you do it. :)
  • iskandusiskandus Member Posts: 1,062 Arc User
    edited February 2014
    X is OP, please nerf.


    My god people, i was in Ker'rat today and was forced out of cloak TWICE by a voth sciship. I was in an Aves class with at least 70-80 aux power. Stealth is fine.

    Voth Palisade by a Sci has very strong passive stealth detection. Your Aux at 70-80 is not good enough. As a rule of thumb, cloakers should travel at maximum Aux or you could face some nasty surprises.
  • virusdancervirusdancer Member Posts: 18,687 Arc User
    edited February 2014
    marc8219 wrote: »
    I play a sci brel sometimes and only have limited success with this due too how overpowered romulan stealth is because of their boffs, but TDF helps feds overcome this advantage while KDF has nothing comparable.

    Warbirds have ~50-55 more Stealth Value than the KDF do. That's ~1km more Stealth Distance.

    Subterfuge does not stack.
    Infiltrator does not stack.
    Subterfuge and Infiltrator do not stack with each other.

    For that matter, Pirate does not stack - nor does Subterfuge, Infiltrator, and Pirate stack.

    Roms do not have any superiority in Stealth Value from BOFFs (they do have other benefits from their BOFFs related to Stealth, but not in Stealth Value)...it's just the ~50-55 Stealth Value that Warbirds have over any of the KDF/Fed cloaks.

    TDF gives Fed/FRoms +20 Starship Sensors all the time and the nifty boost every 3 minutes. And sure, a FRom in a T'varo can use the TDF while cloaked...they can still layer TS/HY/BO and ruin a BoP's day because of how fragile the BoP is compared to say the FRom in his/her T'varo seeing a KRom T'varo. The TDF makes noise though - it's pretty damn loud, to be honest.

    But in the end, it's pretty much overkill on the Stealth Detection/Perception angle - because of how much Stealth has been nerfed and how much Perception/Stealth Detection has been buffed since LoR.

    Hell, with ET still being useless against DOFF'd VM - the number of ships that can AtB CPB - zippy ships with R-TBR - folks just running one of the Jem Deflectors (Mk XI or Mk XII) - folks working in some rank of EPtA - the expanded range (non-visible) of GWs - coordinating/triangulating a cloaker's position with pets...etc, etc, etc...running TDF's overkill, imho, for how bad off Stealth is. What seems like forever ago, I ran a dedicated Snooper - cause some folks were just damn difficult to find...that was forever ago...Stealth got nerfed hard because of all the tears last year.
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