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Re: Tier 5 Connie

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  • chiyoumikuchiyoumiku Member Posts: 1,028 Arc User
    edited February 2014
    The answer is simply "CBS Said no and they don't have to explain why." This seriously did not need further discussion.
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  • whamhammer1whamhammer1 Member Posts: 2,290 Arc User
    edited February 2014
    Yes, this thread is longer than I expected! So I want to thank everyone for keeping this a constructive critique of why we should or shouldn't have the T5 Conny. I also want to thank everyone who contributed their time to create the science and carrier spec variants. While I love the Hanger Bay idea, a squadron of fighters really isn't, dare I say realistic. I was maintly being obnoxious when I asked for the Hanger Bay. However, I DO like the idea of keeping it a cruiser or compromising with a science variant but I'd so very much like to see:

    Constitution Retrofit
    Tier: 5 (Vice Admiral)
    Type: Heavy Cruiser
    Hull: 38,000
    Shield Modifier: 1.5
    Weapons: Fore 4 Aft 4
    Crew: 430
    Bridge Officers: 2 Lieutenant Universal, 2 LT Commander Universal, 1 Commander Universal
    Device Slots: 4
    Consoles: 4 Engineering, 2 Science, 3 Tactical
    Turn Rate: 8
    Impulse Modifier: 0.15
    Inertia rating: 40
    Bonus Power: +6 All Power Levels
    Cost: CBS being reasonable + 2500 Zen
    Abilities: Cruiser Commands, Sensor Analysis, Subsystem Targeting

    Yes, they can even sell a pack of three class specific variants for 5000 Zen! The above spec would be the "basic" model. Maybe they could make another time travel mission like the Drozana Comet series or just like the Ambassador Class which rationalizes why we see those class ships still in service in 2409...


    I grew up on TOS and love the Refit Connie' but really, in what way is your proposal even close to balanced? All universals, two LTCMDR spots, +6 power to all types and a 1.5 shield modifier PLUS two science ship abilities, but only giving up about 1k hull?

    Plus we don't need a three pack for it, honestly more importantly, there are more than enough Fed ship offerings to really necessitate a T5 Connie'
  • quintarisquintaris Member Posts: 816 Arc User
    edited February 2014
    If the TNG guys were told "No Constitution class" when making the Stargazer, it's not a surprise that Cryptic is being told the same.
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  • autumnturningautumnturning Member Posts: 743 Arc User
    edited February 2014
    Shield Modifier: 1.5

    That had better be a typo, since not even Science Ships get that.
    Bridge Officers: 2 Lieutenant Universal, 2 LT Commander Universal, 1 Commander Universal

    KDF Raiders get no more than 1 Commander, 1 Lt Commander, 2 Lieutenant in an all universal configuration (11 skills in 4 BOffs). Your ... suggestion ... obliterates that precedent and offers 14 skills in 5 BOffs. Unprecedented, overpowered and rejected with prejudice on the merits.
    Turn Rate: 8

    So it's a 4 nacelle Heavy Cruiser that isn't a Heavy Cruiser? You seem to have missed the point of something very important here.
    Bonus Power: +6 All Power Levels

    Unprecedented, overpowered and rejected with prejudice on the merits.
    Weapons: Fore 4 Aft 4
    Abilities: Cruiser Commands, Sensor Analysis, Subsystem Targeting

    *NO*. :mad:

    You can have *either* 4/4 Weapons and Cruiser Commands *OR* 3/3 Weapons and Sensor Analysis plus Subsystem Targeting ... but you can't have BOTH on the same ship.

    You fail at good Ship Design as well as Good Taste in stats specifications.

    Try again. :(
  • luvsto1701luvsto1701 Member Posts: 64 Arc User
    edited February 2014
    So no one here finds it odd that a CBS representative said to the devs "We here at CBS feel that your ship should only have 3 weapon slots"?

    And everyone feels that a CBS representative is fully versed on ship layouts for the PWE game?

    And no one thinks it odd that they would allow the Enterprise C to have 4 fore and 4 aft weapons?

    See where I am going here? This is not adding up.
  • atomictikiatomictiki Member Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited February 2014
    Seriously, a Constitution class with the firepower of a Tier 5 ship? So ridiculous it's stupid.
    Leave nerfing to the professionals.
  • truewarpertruewarper Member Posts: 930 Arc User
    edited February 2014
    If CBS has said, 'No', why no acceptance from their decision?
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  • mightymoosemightymoose Member Posts: 5 Arc User
    edited February 2014
    kyeto13 wrote: »
    As discussed too many time to relink, CBS has said, every single time, they have said "no" to a endgame refit of the Constitution, in any way shape or form.

    No T5 Connie

    The part on the T5 Connie is true, I've seen quotes from Cryptic employees saying that CBS said no to end-game connie.

    No T5 Connie refit

    This is grey area, but I suspect that the "no" to end-game connie also extends to the connie-refit.
    No T5 Excalibur
    No T5 Exeter

    This is not true. Until someone can provide a link or any proof that either Cryptic and/or CBS said "no" to end-game Excalibur or Exeter, then I say these claims are just made-up. As far as I can tell, Cryptic/CBS has said NOTHING about end-game Excalibur or Exeter.

    I think any of these are still possible :
    T4 Constitution
    T5 Excalibur
    T5 Exeter
  • altechachanaltechachan Member Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited February 2014
    luvsto1701 wrote: »
    So no one here finds it odd that a CBS representative said to the devs "We here at CBS feel that your ship should only have 3 weapon slots"?

    And everyone feels that a CBS representative is fully versed on ship layouts for the PWE game?

    And no one thinks it odd that they would allow the Enterprise C to have 4 fore and 4 aft weapons?

    See where I am going here? This is not adding up.

    That's the thing when you own the property rights and give out licenses: you don't have to explain yourself or reason it out. You just have to say so and the people who want your license have to oblige. Gameplay and lore is not part of the discussion. It is simply CBS doing what it wants with the property that it owns and doesn't need to answer to another authority.
    Member since November 2009... I think.
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  • thecosmic1thecosmic1 Member Posts: 9,365 Arc User
    edited February 2014
    luvsto1701 wrote: »
    So no one here finds it odd that a CBS representative said to the devs "We here at CBS feel that your ship should only have 3 weapon slots"?

    And everyone feels that a CBS representative is fully versed on ship layouts for the PWE game?

    And no one thinks it odd that they would allow the Enterprise C to have 4 fore and 4 aft weapons?

    See where I am going here? This is not adding up.
    So I will ask you again... why would Cryptic not be selling a ship that would make them more money then any other C-Store ship if they could?

    You think Cryptic and PWE do not like money?

    I assure you, they love money. Cryptic's executives' bonuses are based on profits. PWE's executives' bonuses are based on profits. They would be selling it in a heartbeat if they could: they would be selling it in a 3-pack like the Odyssey to make even more money if they could.
    STO is about my Liberated Borg Federation Captain with his Breen 1st Officer, Jem'Hadar Tactical Officer, Liberated Borg Engineering Officer, Android Ops Officer, Photonic Science Officer, Gorn Science Officer, and Reman Medical Officer jumping into their Jem'Hadar Carrier and flying off to do missions for the new Romulan Empire. But for some players allowing a T5 Connie to be used breaks the canon in the game.
  • kimmymkimmym Member Posts: 1,317 Arc User
    edited February 2014
    I ended up purchasing the Exter to play with her console.

    I must admit, it is kinda fun to try and do end game missions in her.

    Off topic, but still fun.

    I would like to have a T5 version of every canon ship. I don't see why it isn't that way now, other then time to develop and release.

    But... I'm not in charge. Not personally a huge Connie fan myself, but I'd like to be able to fly any Fed ship from the IP. Seems like that is what a Trek game is all about.
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  • luvsto1701luvsto1701 Member Posts: 64 Arc User
    edited February 2014
    Yes I too would like to know where these and turrets etc are at
  • luvsto1701luvsto1701 Member Posts: 64 Arc User
    edited February 2014
    You are missing the point here, I don't believe for one minute that CBS was asked can we have 4fore and 4 aft...the CBS rep would be like uh wtf are you talking about
  • altechachanaltechachan Member Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited February 2014
    luvsto1701 wrote: »
    You are missing the point here, I don't believe for one minute that CBS was asked can we have 4fore and 4 aft...the CBS rep would be like uh wtf are you talking about

    But they do know the term "end game ship" and they can probably easily make the connection that "4 for and 4 aft" is an "end game ship" characteristic.

    But hey, you can always talk to https://twitter.com/jvancitters and start asking them on their own forums http://www.startrek.com/boards/star-trek-online
    Member since November 2009... I think.
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  • thecosmic1thecosmic1 Member Posts: 9,365 Arc User
    edited February 2014
    luvsto1701 wrote: »
    You are missing the point here, I don't believe for one minute that CBS was asked can we have 4fore and 4 aft...the CBS rep would be like uh wtf are you talking about
    You have the right to believe whatever you want. That does not make your belief correct; nor does it rationalize why the ship is not in the game if CBS did not say NO.

    There would be no reason for the ship to not be in the game, as Cryptic clearly has no issues with using other old ships. :)
    STO is about my Liberated Borg Federation Captain with his Breen 1st Officer, Jem'Hadar Tactical Officer, Liberated Borg Engineering Officer, Android Ops Officer, Photonic Science Officer, Gorn Science Officer, and Reman Medical Officer jumping into their Jem'Hadar Carrier and flying off to do missions for the new Romulan Empire. But for some players allowing a T5 Connie to be used breaks the canon in the game.
  • kimmymkimmym Member Posts: 1,317 Arc User
    edited February 2014
    I have no doubt that the Cryptic/PWE would sell a T5 connie to every player in the game if they could get the licencing.

    I fully believe CBS said no. There is no fiscal reason not to release a cash cow of that magnitude.
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  • thekirklivesthekirklives Member Posts: 33 Arc User
    edited February 2014
    cidstorm wrote: »
    CBS has no idea how to manage a game and thats why we don't have a T5 Connie.

    Thank you for your support!!!
  • johngazmanjohngazman Member Posts: 2,826 Arc User
    edited February 2014
    luvsto1701 wrote: »
    You are missing the point here, I don't believe for one minute that CBS was asked can we have 4fore and 4 aft...the CBS rep would be like uh wtf are you talking about

    No, you are missing the point here. And the point is this - you've been told no. Accept it, forget about a T5 Constitution and go on with your life. You'll feel much better once you do.

    CBS don't give a threepenny bit how Cryptic chooses to implement ship layouts in-game. That's their business. Provided CBS doesn't randomly decide to object to a certain ship layout, they'll probably never even need to ask.

    The Constitution, on the other hand, is a big money-maker when it comes to CBS's franchise, and as the owners of the intellectual property rights, it's their decision as to where, when, who and how other companies can implement it as a product.

    As I mentioned earlier, the whole reason for the lack of an Original Series/Movie Era Enterprise might be down to the deal struck with CBS and Paramount. Perhaps, in making a deal, CBS agreed (or had to agree) not to use the TOS Constitution in any official games or films whilst Paramount publishes it's Star Trek reboot. Reneging on such a deal would lead to a fairly expensive lawsuit.

    Similarly, if Cryptic attempts do sell the Connie without CBS approval - massive lawsuit, Cryptic loses the rights to continue developing Star Trek Online, STO closes down, end of the game.

    With all that taken into consideration (i.e. Calling for a T5 Connie could potentially ruin the game for everyone, in a worst case scenario) I don't see why you'd continue to ask for one.

    If - and only if - CBS decide to change their mind, or are no longer contractually obliged not to sell the Constitution in certain circles, then this whole discussion will be relevant.

    Until then, it's all talk and no trousers.
    cidstorm wrote: »
    CBS has no idea how to manage a game and thats why we don't have a T5 Connie.

    CBS aren't managing a game. They're managing a multi-million dollar franchise. In which case, where to sell what, and what deals to make with who, mean much more than than the opinions of a small minority.
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  • altechachanaltechachan Member Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited February 2014
    johngazman wrote: »
    I don't see why you'd continue to ask for one.

    Well, we do get new players now and then. Sometimes they think up the old questions and start to ask. The cycle continues.
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  • corbinwolf#9797 corbinwolf Member Posts: 565 Arc User
    edited February 2014
    johngazman wrote: »
    As I mentioned earlier, the whole reason for the lack of an Original Series/Movie Era Enterprise might be down to the deal struck with CBS and Paramount. Perhaps, in making a deal, CBS agreed (or had to agree) not to use the TOS Constitution in any official games or films whilst Paramount publishes it's Star Trek reboot. Reneging on such a deal would lead to a fairly expensive lawsuit.

    An honest question: If CBS owns the Intellectual Property of the television shows and Paramount that of the Star Trek Movies than how does the Enterprise Refit fit into the equation? I could understand CBS executing its rights to prevent a T5 TOS ship from the show, but isn't the Refit and the subsequent A owned by Paramount then? If the latter is the case, than is it not Paramount (instead of CBS) who is preventing the Refit (A) from being a T5 ship?

    In the end I would settle for the Exeter or its counterparts. :rolleyes:
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  • johngazmanjohngazman Member Posts: 2,826 Arc User
    edited February 2014
    An honest question: If CBS owns the Intellectual Property of the television shows and Paramount that of the Star Trek Movies than how does the Enterprise Refit fit into the equation? I could understand CBS executing its rights to prevent a T5 TOS ship from the show, but isn't the Refit and the subsequent A owned by Paramount then? If the latter is the case, than is it not Paramount (instead of CBS) who is preventing the Refit (A) from being a T5 ship?

    In the end I would settle for the Exeter or its counterparts. :rolleyes:

    An honest answer: I don't know, categorically. I'm merely speculating on the reasons behind such a decision.

    My guess would be that it falls under the same jurisdiction as the TOS Connie. Think of it in terms of a Kirk-Era Constitution-class (rather than a TOS Constitution and Movie Era Constitution), and then consider that CBS and Paramount don't want to strike a deal over the intellectual property rights and then immediately confuse customers and divide fans by having two Star Trek canons and two Kirk-Era Constitution-classes going at the same time.

    As I say, speculation.
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  • altechachanaltechachan Member Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited February 2014
    It was defined that the Star Trek license given to Cryptic from CBS includes the TV shows, Animated Series, and the films up to Star Trek Nemesis. Most likely since those characters and designs for the movies came from the CBS-owned TV Shows but were published for movies by Paramount Pictures.

    The reboot movies themselves are after the split between Viacom and CBS. The old Viacom became CBS Corporation and kept the Star Trek TV show license but the new Viacom (they kept the name) includes Paramount Pictures which now have the movie license. Read more here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Viacom_%28original%29#2005_split

    So yeah, the 2005 split (after Star Trek Nemesis) is pretty much why Star Trek Online only have the rights to use the movies up to that point and not the reboot since that's the limit of what CBS can license out. On the flip side, Paramount Pictures control the reboot movies from 2009 onwards but yet still have distribution rights for the earlier movies.

    Now that I think about it, it could be the grey area of that split in Viacom that makes the Constitution not included as a Tier 5 ship. They would have to get CBS, Viacom, and then Paramount Studios on it. Which, I suspect since Paramount Pictures want to milk their style of Constitution-class won't exactly be okay with CBS cashing out on the older versions.
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  • thecosmic1thecosmic1 Member Posts: 9,365 Arc User
    edited February 2014
    It is important to keep in mind that both CBS and Viacom are owned - via controlling shares - by National Amusements: which is owned by Sumner Redstone: Chairman of National Amusements, Viacom, and Executive Chairman of CBS. The two corporations are not as separate as people like to believe.
    STO is about my Liberated Borg Federation Captain with his Breen 1st Officer, Jem'Hadar Tactical Officer, Liberated Borg Engineering Officer, Android Ops Officer, Photonic Science Officer, Gorn Science Officer, and Reman Medical Officer jumping into their Jem'Hadar Carrier and flying off to do missions for the new Romulan Empire. But for some players allowing a T5 Connie to be used breaks the canon in the game.
  • mightymoosemightymoose Member Posts: 5 Arc User
    edited February 2014
    It was defined that the Star Trek license given to Cryptic from CBS includes the TV shows, Animated Series, and the films up to Star Trek Nemesis. Most likely since those characters and designs for the movies came from the CBS-owned TV Shows but were published for movies by Paramount Pictures.

    The reboot movies themselves are after the split between Viacom and CBS. The old Viacom became CBS Corporation and kept the Star Trek TV show license but the new Viacom (they kept the name) includes Paramount Pictures which now have the movie license. Read more here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Viacom_%28original%29#2005_split

    So yeah, the 2005 split (after Star Trek Nemesis) is pretty much why Star Trek Online only have the rights to use the movies up to that point and not the reboot since that's the limit of what CBS can license out. On the flip side, Paramount Pictures control the reboot movies from 2009 onwards but yet still have distribution rights for the earlier movies.

    Now that I think about it, it could be the grey area of that split in Viacom that makes the Constitution not included as a Tier 5 ship. They would have to get CBS, Viacom, and then Paramount Studios on it. Which, I suspect since Paramount Pictures want to milk their style of Constitution-class won't exactly be okay with CBS cashing out on the older versions.

    I don't think it has to do with the licensing issues you stated. If it was, then the connie itself would not be in the game. Yet both versions, TOS and movie (TMP), are in the game. I think you're reading too much into this. All we know is CBS said no to end-game connie according to Cryptic.
  • altechachanaltechachan Member Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited February 2014
    All we know is CBS said no to end-game connie according to Cryptic.

    I'll go with that, since it's the easier answer. My previous response was an answer to an earlier question about the movie refits being in the game. I should have quoted that question.
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  • sonnikkusonnikku Member Posts: 77 Arc User
    edited February 2014
    BS! lol Utter utter BS. Your statement is so full of BS, that the global prices of BS plummeted due to the sudden oversupply of BS thanks to you.

    Except the Abrams Enterprise really is more modern and powerful than the prime universe version. The ease with which the Kelvin with it's state of the art weapons and shields was obliterated made Starfleet completely change gears in ship development, shifting to rapid advancement of powerful tactical systems over exploration capabilities. It would still hardly be a match for a 25th century ship right out of the gate, but if ships like the Excel are within the range of a modern day refit, than the abrams enterprise really isn't that far of a stretch.

    Unfortunately, the real reason why it can't happen is because STO does not have the rights to the alternate universe.
  • snoggymack22snoggymack22 Member Posts: 7,084 Arc User
    edited February 2014
    atomictiki wrote: »
    Seriously, a Constitution class with the firepower of a Tier 5 ship? So ridiculous it's stupid.

    Seriously, a T'Liss with the firepower of a T5 ship? So ridiculous it's in the game!
    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
  • snoggymack22snoggymack22 Member Posts: 7,084 Arc User
    edited February 2014
    truewarper wrote: »
    If CBS has said, 'No', why no acceptance from their decision?

    Geko has said he has no plans to modify the Galaxy in more than one podcast. And yet ... this thread still exists:

    http://sto-forum.perfectworld.com/showthread.php?t=528931&page=140

    So applying the underlying logic is quite simple. People want a T5 Constitution class or Fleet variant of the T2 cruiser. And thus it will keep getting asked for.

    If it bugs you that these threads exist ...

    1- Don't read them.
    2- SERIOUSLY DO NOT POST IN THEM. That bumps them. That means your own actions are contributing to your dismay.
    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
  • thecosmic1thecosmic1 Member Posts: 9,365 Arc User
    edited February 2014
    Geko has said he has no plans to modify the Galaxy in more than one podcast. And yet ... this thread still exists:

    http://sto-forum.perfectworld.com/showthread.php?t=528931&page=140

    So applying the underlying logic is quite simple. People want a T5 Constitution class or Fleet variant of the T2 cruiser. And thus it will keep getting asked for.

    If it bugs you that these threads exist ...

    1- Don't read them.
    2- SERIOUSLY DO NOT POST IN THEM. That bumps them. That means your own actions are contributing to your dismay.
    I believe what he was addressing was the poster's incessant denial that CBS would ever say NO, not why there is another T5 Connie thread. :)
    STO is about my Liberated Borg Federation Captain with his Breen 1st Officer, Jem'Hadar Tactical Officer, Liberated Borg Engineering Officer, Android Ops Officer, Photonic Science Officer, Gorn Science Officer, and Reman Medical Officer jumping into their Jem'Hadar Carrier and flying off to do missions for the new Romulan Empire. But for some players allowing a T5 Connie to be used breaks the canon in the game.
  • snoggymack22snoggymack22 Member Posts: 7,084 Arc User
    edited February 2014
    thecosmic1 wrote: »
    I believe what he was addressing was the poster's incessant denial that CBS would ever say NO, not why there is another T5 Connie thread. :)

    Ah, ok. My bad.

    It does get asked a lot. Pretty much everytime a new thread starts. Which should happen in T minus ...

    ;)
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This discussion has been closed.