Flogging a Dead!! horse is animal cruelty please stop this lol....
I just wish someone could set up the forums to scan for the word Connie, Constitution or words alike to stop me seeing this thread every darn day/week/month/year...
As long as this forum exists there will be threads about t5 connies.
All you can do is educate the noobs and heap scorn upon the deceased equine whippers.
It's not myfault ifyoufeel trolledbymyDisco ball...Sorry'boutit.
Except for the part where Geko in a Priority One interview said its pretty much never going to happen, even as a compromise. (when referring to an Excalibur)
No offense to geko intended especially if I'm wrong. But I believe i think that would be a cryptic decision not a CBS one. Also one i don't agree with, those are completely new designs, that just resembles the Constitution class. I just wish they themselves would say whether or not that is cbs or their decision.
Just so I can leave the whole thing with some clarity of what is going on.
Except for the part where Geko in a Priority One interview said its pretty much never going to happen, even as a compromise. (when referring to an Excalibur)
Citing Geko in a podcast is kind of like citing Wikipedia as an authoritative source. (It might be right. It might not be right).
Especially since we're citing Geko's podcast interview about official CBS announcements.
Look, all I'm saying is there has been one actual on the record statement from Stahl about the TOS Connie.
Everything else they've purposely hedged with the "I'd never say never" tag.
But these discussions (and they happen a lot) really do gloss over that part and just say that CBS said no to all of the t1 and t2 cruisers.
Which isn't technically the case.
Now back in the real world, I'm not waiting on a T5 Vesper any more than you are.
Flogging a Dead!! horse is animal cruelty please stop this lol....
I just wish someone could set up the forums to scan for the word Connie, Constitution or words alike to stop me seeing this thread every darn day/week/month/year...
Skip these threads. It's easy. I constantly skip threads I'm not interested in. There's like a dozen of them in the general forum I have zero interest in. And most of them are on topics that have been discussed to death. But me? I go click on stuff I am interested in.
Now back in the real world, I'm not waiting on a T5 Vesper any more than you are.
But CBS hasn't said no to that.
I am going to assume that Cryptic does not see the Vesper or Excalibur as anything more then Connie Refit skins. IE, they are not really separate ships. They are all the same ship with potential appearance modification pieces.
If they allow a T5 Vesper and Excalibur then people are going to demand the Exeter skin be available, and then you are getting really close to Connie territory. Not to mention the cries "if you can do an Excalibur why not a Constitution?"
In the grand scheme of things it is probably better for Cryptic to just leave all 4 T2 Cruiser skins out of the mix.
STO is about my Liberated Borg Federation Captain with his Breen 1st Officer, Jem'Hadar Tactical Officer, Liberated Borg Engineering Officer, Android Ops Officer, Photonic Science Officer, Gorn Science Officer, and Reman Medical Officer jumping into their Jem'Hadar Carrier and flying off to do missions for the new Romulan Empire. But for some players allowing a T5 Connie to be used breaks the canon in the game.
Look, all I'm saying is there has been one actual on the record statement from Stahl about the TOS Connie.
He's said it several times over the years in a few ask Cryptics, interviews, etc. I'm not sure where you're getting 'one actual' statement from. Geko has said it a few times, other devs have refused to even comment on it in interviews because they don't want to get caught in the firestorm that usually comes with it.
Geko is the last actual dev source we've heard from on the subject, and he basically said its a nonstarter. I find it hard to believe Cryptic would turn down easy money like that without a solid reason behind it.
Given how ridiculous the ship line up has gotten, there are only a couple logical reasons I can think of: 1 CBS did say no to the whole set of ships, or 2 As cosmic suggested, they just don't want the trouble that would come with leaving the Connie out of a T2 cruiser fleet ship.
This horse has been beaten since launch. Since launch. It's been beaten to death, buried, dug up, beaten again, flung in the Tiber, fished out, re-buried, then dug up again and beaten some more.
--snippy snippy--
This is probably one of the best and most logical arguments against a T5 Connie I have ever read. I like it.
If they allow a T5 Vesper and Excalibur then people are going to demand the Exeter skin be available, and then you are getting really close to Connie territory. Not to mention the cries "if you can do an Excalibur why not a Constitution?"
Lack of a T5 ship that can get the Exeter skin keeps me from sinking real money into buying it. You'd think they'd want more people purchasing those mid level ships PLUS the modules/unlocks to get the T5 versions. No interest in the Constitution or it's refit personally, just interested in flying an Exeter for more than the 10-20 run which can be done in less than a day.
This horse has been beaten since launch. Since launch. It's been beaten to death, buried, dug up, beaten again, flung in the Tiber, fished out, re-buried, then dug up again and beaten some more.
Don't like the topic, don't read or post in it, if it bothers you that much. That goes for anybody that b***hes about Tier 5 Constitution threads.
The Constitution is old and busted. The last ones were decommissioned more than a century ago. They're small and underpowered compared even to century-old Excelsior-class ships. And no, you cannot cram new technology into them, because they're designed for old equipment. They don't have the vertical space for a TNG-style warp core; they don't have the hull bracketing for beam arrays as opposed to the single beam emitters the old Enterprise carried. After a century of life, hull stress and sheer age would leave these aging hulks weak and in dire need of maintenance.
The refit version of the Constitution was still in service as late as the 2360's. That is canonically supported. The U.S.S. Olympia and the unnamed Constitution that was lost at Wolf 359, are two examples that I know of.
Plenty of older ships from the age of phaser banks/emitters remained in service well past the Dominion War in canon. One of them is considered one of the best, if not the best, cruiser in the game (STO). That would be the Excelsior Class.
For the record, the primary core of the NCC-1701-A was of the vertical type in the last days of it's service. Hell, that was the case with the 2270's refit. Only the intermix chamber remained horizontal.
The fact is that while older hulls would be retired, nothing would stop the production of newer vessels or activation of low maintenance hulls from mothballs (as was the case with the Constellation Class vessels in the years after Wolf 359).
The design of the Constitution Class was one of the most durable in Starfleet's history up to the point of it's initial in-service date. It laid the groundwork for future long term exploratory vessels. That durability, combined with the fact that the class was designed with constant refits/upgrades in mind, would allow for a very long time in service, in various roles. Not just low level yeoman service. The aforementioned Olympia was on an eight year mission to the Beta Quadrant. You don't send useless old relics on jobs like that. You send starships that are to up to date standards and viable.
Ultimately, though, the whole age argument is moot when it comes to the actual game. The Tier Five Excelsior and T'Varo (to name a couple of examples) are proof of that.
The Constitution only makes sense if it is a ship pulled out of mothballs for in-system defense and close-in missions by a Starfleet fighting multiple wars and in desperate need of ships to backfill non-critical missions while the modern warships go to the front. This is why we only play it in Sirius and Regulus sector, and maybe a little along the Klingon border if things get really desperate. It is not a Captain's ship, it is a ship given to a Lieutenant Commander to lug cargo and protect colonies from pirates because Starfleet is desperate for ships now, even ancient hunks of junk that can no longer fight. It may stand up to similarly aging birds of prey. It will not stand up to a Borg cube, or an 8472 dreadnought, or the Voth, or the Tholians.
That was the case for the pre-2270's versions in the game. However, what you posted is irrelevant when talking about the movie-era version and modern cruiser variants. If a replica of a 22nd Century starship can be built with modern technology, and non-Starfleet vessels whose basic designs can be traced back to the same period can be bought at Fleet level, there is no lore or game play reasons for older, lower tier iconic ships to be only borderline useful at endgame. And it doesn't explain why their newer stablemates remain at that low level, with no endgame versions.
Truth is, there is no real reason to make justifications for or against. Simply, because of the numbers of old-school, non-Federation vessels and modern alien starships that can be flown by anybody at endgame level. The old "anything goes" horse has escaped the barn a long time ago.
On another note.....
As snoggysmack has pointed out, the CBS prohibition applied to The Original Series variant of the Constitution. Many people seem to assume that, from limited tidbits of information, CBS has prohibited all pre-Next Generation starships from having Tier Five versions. Which, of course, is pure bulls**t unless a dev comes right out and clearly says otherwise.
The horse is dead. Dismount.
Like I said, dislike the topic that much, avoid it. And don't dictate what others discuss, with this drill instructor tone. As long as those discussions don't violate the Terms of Service, they are good to go.
It's good to see another person who actually takes a look at the details and posts them in here. I can barely summon the effort after all the times iv'e seen people blatantly dismiss proof of the ships eligibility for tier 5.
Even in canon trek a ship from the same era as the Connie Refit was brought up to a competitive mount with the Defiant, Star Fleets only known pure combat ship.
Plenty of older ships from the age of phaser banks/emitters remained in service well past the Dominion War in canon. One of them is considered one of the best, if not the best, cruiser in the game (STO). That would be the Excelsior Class.
As snoggysmack has pointed out, the CBS prohibition applied to The Original Series variant of the Constitution. Many people seem to assume that, from limited tidbits of information, CBS has prohibited all pre-Next Generation starships from having Tier Five versions. Which, of course, is pure bulls**t unless a dev comes right out and clearly says otherwise.
actually, the excelsior was refit/retrofitted heavily in its service time the ones you see in DS9 had photons/quantum torps and phaser arrays just like other current gen starfleet ships.
the connies designs had so many flaws it was easier to just retire it and build different ships.
also, it's any and all connies, not the T1 Light cruiser variant that arent allowed T5 versions. thats why we cannot have any T2 cruiser variant at T5, because they can use the connie skin.
Oldravenman makes quite a few points, but fails to address the one that really matters:
CBS owns the Constitution design, and CBS very bluntly said no. You want a tier 5 Connie, the corporate suits at CBS are the ones you need to convince, not the forum community.
It's not that you're beating a dead horse, it's that you're beating the wrong horse.
Oldravenman makes quite a few points, but fails to address the one that really matters:
CBS owns the Constitution design, and CBS very bluntly said no. You want a tier 5 Connie, the corporate suits at CBS are the ones you need to convince, not the forum community.
It's not that you're beating a dead horse, it's that you're beating the wrong horse.
I think you can even go to jail for beating a wrong horse.
STO is about my Liberated Borg Federation Captain with his Breen 1st Officer, Jem'Hadar Tactical Officer, Liberated Borg Engineering Officer, Android Ops Officer, Photonic Science Officer, Gorn Science Officer, and Reman Medical Officer jumping into their Jem'Hadar Carrier and flying off to do missions for the new Romulan Empire. But for some players allowing a T5 Connie to be used breaks the canon in the game.
I seriously wish the T5 Connie talk would end. (It won't, but I think we'd be better off without it.)
Why is everyone so obsessed with bringing 100+ year old designs into STO? Look at the real world, does the US Navy still refurbish and field Monitor-class ironclads anymore? 'Cause in Star Trek, that's the Connie or the NX.
Much as i love the Excelsior, even that has no place in the 25th century, IMO. It's over a century old! Surely the Federation has come up with something more modern that fits the role in that time.
The connie in-game is EXACTLY where it belongs, at the bottom tier compared to the Vesta, Odyssey, and other "modern" cruisers.
You all are letting nostalgia cloud your perception. I love the USS Constitution (old ironsides), and love to visit it for tours. But that doesn't mean we should send it to sea for active duty.
Nothing breaks the tension better than a tankard of warnog - except maybe a good brawl...
I am going to assume that Cryptic does not see the Vesper or Excalibur as anything more then Connie Refit skins. IE, they are not really separate ships. They are all the same ship with potential appearance modification pieces.
The Vesper looks like an Excelsior. A ship they have no problems allowing at end-game.
He's said it several times over the years in a few ask Cryptics,
Everytime they've mentioned it, even in Dan's comment, they've hedged with "I wouldn't say never" or some other vague language that suggests the door isn't closed.
So again let's keep this clear:
The only official statement comes from DSTahl. Who was saying what CBS said.
Everything else has been dev chatter with a vague ending that leaves the door open.
The CBS Said No blanket statement gets miscommunicated by posters in each and every one of these threads. Just like you just did.
Jellico....Engineer ground.....Da'val Romulan space Sci
Saphire.. Science ground......Ko'el Romulan space Tac
Leva........Tactical ground.....Koj Romulan space Eng
JJ-Verse will never be Canon or considered Lore...It will always be JJ-Verse
Why is everyone so obsessed with bringing 100+ year old designs into STO? Look at the real world, does the US Navy still refurbish and field Monitor-class ironclads anymore? 'Cause in Star Trek, that's the Connie or the NX.
Not a very good debate strategy when you consider the game already includes 2 centuries old D'kyrs as well as centuries old T'varos, Excelsiors, etc all at T5.
Age is not a determining factor for why ships are in the game. Fan desire to want to buy them is the determining factor. Unfortunately it is CBS who has put the clamps on the Connie, as many Devs have expressed a desire to make it and sell it - knowing it would be a HUGE money maker.
STO is about my Liberated Borg Federation Captain with his Breen 1st Officer, Jem'Hadar Tactical Officer, Liberated Borg Engineering Officer, Android Ops Officer, Photonic Science Officer, Gorn Science Officer, and Reman Medical Officer jumping into their Jem'Hadar Carrier and flying off to do missions for the new Romulan Empire. But for some players allowing a T5 Connie to be used breaks the canon in the game.
The connie in-game is EXACTLY where it belongs, at the bottom tier compared to the Vesta, Odyssey, and other "modern" cruisers.
Three questions:
1- Why did you cite the Vesta? It's not a cruiser.
2- Explain why "modern" cruisers like the Cheyenne and Excelsior aren't also at the bottom?
3- Why are the D'Kyr, Somraw, T'Liss, B'Rel, K'Tinga and Wells all at the same level of effectiveness as the Intrepid, Galaxy and Sovereign? If you know, age matters?
1- Why did you cite the Vesta? It's not a cruiser.
2- Explain why "modern" cruisers like the Cheyenne and Excelsior aren't also at the bottom?
3- Why are the D'Kyr, Somraw, T'Liss, B'Rel, K'Tinga and Wells all at the same level of effectiveness as the Intrepid, Galaxy and Sovereign? If you know, age matters?
Oh, that's the problem, age SHOULD matter, but doesn't in STO.
The question I asked was WHY would a player want to float around in an antique and expect it to fight like a modern ship? Cryptic fed this by putting up so many nostalgia ships. Maybe they should make a seperate STO for 23rd-24th Century play (Lost Era). I would play that, and would definitely want an Excelsior or Connie.
But quite honestly, we saw what happens to Excelsiors and Mirandas when they face modern enemies on DS9. They were basically cannon fodder that died with one or two shots.
Somehow, i don't think Starfleet would upgrade and keep building them for another 40 years.
This is, of course, a matter of taste, and i understand why Cryptic offers them (because people will buy them)
My question is why play a game representing a future timeline (25th century) and use 23rd century tech? I could care less if there is a T5 connie because to me it breaks immersion to be fighting the borg in an advanced ship like the odyssey or Avenger and seeing a relic of 1960's design racking up kille.
BTW, the Vesta IS a cruiser. It was invented for the ST pocket books series. It is a Cruiser.
in STO, "Science Vessel" still = CRUISER.
Hope you got that clear this time.
Nothing breaks the tension better than a tankard of warnog - except maybe a good brawl...
I apologize to all of the people who are "offended" (?) by my posting my thoughts on the forums. I am truly sorry if My thread took up one of the precious 20 spots on the first page, but I had to ask.....
So a little more info
While the age of the ship is a concern and CBS's alleged "nos" also concerning, I am thinking from more of a fun perspective. TO me when I play Star Trek I do not want to play the Cryptic ships. While the art work is fantastic on the Odysseys and the Avengers, but I have personal tastes for the Galaxies, Sovereigns, and defiants as I want to fly the ships that I saw on the TV shows and Movies. This includes loading my characters up with the WoK uniforms and cruising around in my Constitution class star ship.
Is that such a horrible crime to want? Is it such a huge game breaking issue that a small cosmetic tweak may increase some peoples enjoyment of the game?
It's good to see another person who actually takes a look at the details and posts them in here.
The detail you and many other posters overlook is the Path to 2409 established that none of the ships in this game are old. They may have old "looks" but are all being produced with modern tech, modern hulls fresh out of the shipyard.
The path to 2409 established that O'Brien and the Corps of Engineers developed the modular ship design tech so that all of the new captains shoved into the war with the undine could have a brand new ship quickly and have it customizable to their preferences and their mission parameters.
This was the book/timeline's explanation for why there were so many new captains and why they were choosing between three different skins at each level, which usually had a really old skin and two cryptic designed skins (Think Cheyenne and Stargazer at T3).
So that Excelsior? It's not been in service since the 2280s. You can tell this because its registry number isn't anywhere close to what a ship from that era would have been.
So if we're gonna start talking about details, you all should brush up on the details of this game's self written canon. Go out, and buy the novel. It's got a great chapter about Gorn versus Starfleet baseball teams that incites an incident with the Klingons.
The detail you and many other posters overlook is the Path to 2409 established that none of the ships in this game are old. They may have old "looks" but are all being produced with modern tech, modern hulls fresh out of the shipyard.
The path to 2409 established that O'Brien and the Corps of Engineers developed the modular ship design tech so that all of the new captains shoved into the war with the undine could have a brand new ship quickly and have it customizable to their preferences and their mission parameters.
This was the book/timeline's explanation for why there were so many new captains and why they were choosing between three different skins at each level, which usually had a really old skin and two cryptic designed skins (Think Cheyenne and Stargazer at T3).
So that Excelsior? It's not been in service since the 2280s. You can tell this because its registry number isn't anywhere close to what a ship from that era would have been.
So if we're gonna start talking about details, you all should brush up on the details of this game's self written canon. Go out, and buy the novel. It's got a great chapter about Gorn versus Starfleet baseball teams that incites an incident with the Klingons.
I've read it a couple of times. Doesn't change the fact that all that garbage was thrown in to justify selling old ships in a game timeframe that makes them a century or more old.
In other words, like most entertainment, it caters to those with no imagination. "I wanna be like Captain kirk so i gotta have his ship" sort of thing.
Heaven help us is anyone ever broke out of the mold andecided to tell their OWN story.
This is what killed the Trek franchise in the early 2000's. Always looking back, never forward.
Hey, they find a way to get you guys your precious T5 rustbucket, I'm happy for you. Too bad they'll probably nerf my modern, state of the art ship so yours doesn't get waxed in a few shots.
In any case, if you want to tout "needs of the Many", fine. Connies were long out of service even before then. i defy you to find a single live, active-duty Connie in TNG, DS9, VOY, or any of the films past 6.
They were decomissioning them as early as 2285 (Star Trek III) so even using the logic of your book argument, you might see Excelsiors, Constellations, mirandas, and others. You would never see a Connie.
Ever.
Nothing breaks the tension better than a tankard of warnog - except maybe a good brawl...
Oh, that's the problem, age SHOULD matter, but doesn't in STO.
So here's the thing right. Age doesn't matter. As we know. As you yourself cite. Thus any and all posts suggesting the Constitution can't work at T5 because it is old are null and void.
The reason there isn't currently a T5 version of that ship is because Dan said CBS said no. That's it. That's all there is. Age was never a factor. Not for this game.
The question I asked was WHY would a player want to float around in an antique and expect it to fight like a modern ship?
This question is the easiest of all to answer. People want to play a star trek game and fly their favorite star trek ship in it. The reason people want to fly their favorite ship at end-game is because that's where people who play the game regularly spend the most of their playtime. So while it's great they can fly said ship for the first 10 levels, those are gone in the blink of an eye while the next 4 years are spent doing STFs at level 50. So they would like to fly their favorite ship at that level, because it's a game and it is fun to do that in a game.
Considering they also allow you to use those era's uniforms, its bridge, AND they made the Galileo shuttle as powerful as the runabout from DS9, it's already pretty much established that Cryptic is A-OK with letting its players play the game with the feel of any era even the TOS era.
But quite honestly, we saw what happens to Excelsiors and Mirandas when they face modern enemies on DS9. They were basically cannon fodder that died with one or two shots.
It's a stretch. Most every ship in that show except the Defiant or one with Dukat or Worf on the crew was overmatched by the Jem'Hadar. Because of plot.
Somehow, i don't think Starfleet would upgrade and keep building them for another 40 years.
They explained this in the path to 2409. The ships are all new and modern. But can have the "look" of an older ship. It's a plot device used to explain game functions, so it's a little square peg in a round hole. But it's established for how a captain can have a Centaur or a Miranda and they work the exact same.
BTW, the Vesta IS a cruiser. It was invented for the ST pocket books series. It is a Cruiser.
in STO, "Science Vessel" still = CRUISER.
Ouch. No. Just no. In STO a science vessel is NOT a cruiser. Not even close. Cruisers have more weapons. Turn slower. More hull. Less shields. Cruiser commands. No beam targeting subsystems. They are very different ships. The Vesta is not a cruiser in this game. At all. Neither is the Rhode Island or the Olympic or the Intrepid.
I've read it a couple of times. Doesn't change the fact that all that garbage was thrown in to justify selling old ships in a game timeframe that makes them a century or more old.
In other words, like most entertainment, it caters to those with no imagination. "I wanna be like Captain kirk so i gotta have his ship" sort of thing.
Heaven help us is anyone ever broke out of the mold andecided to tell their OWN story.
This is what killed the Trek franchise in the early 2000's. Always looking back, never forward.
Hey, they find a way to get you guys your precious T5 rustbucket, I'm happy for you. Too bad they'll probably nerf my modern, state of the art ship so yours doesn't get waxed in a few shots.
In any case, if you want to tout "needs of the Many", fine. Connies were long out of service even before then. i defy you to find a single live, active-duty Connie in TNG, DS9, VOY, or any of the films past 6.
They were decomissioning them as early as 2285 (Star Trek III) so even using the logic of your book argument, you might see Excelsiors, Constellations, mirandas, and others. You would never see a Connie.
Comments
I just wish someone could set up the forums to scan for the word Connie, Constitution or words alike to stop me seeing this thread every darn day/week/month/year...
All you can do is educate the noobs and heap scorn upon the deceased equine whippers.
R.I.P. Leonard Nimoy
No offense to geko intended especially if I'm wrong. But I believe i think that would be a cryptic decision not a CBS one. Also one i don't agree with, those are completely new designs, that just resembles the Constitution class. I just wish they themselves would say whether or not that is cbs or their decision.
Just so I can leave the whole thing with some clarity of what is going on.
Citing Geko in a podcast is kind of like citing Wikipedia as an authoritative source. (It might be right. It might not be right).
Especially since we're citing Geko's podcast interview about official CBS announcements.
Look, all I'm saying is there has been one actual on the record statement from Stahl about the TOS Connie.
Everything else they've purposely hedged with the "I'd never say never" tag.
But these discussions (and they happen a lot) really do gloss over that part and just say that CBS said no to all of the t1 and t2 cruisers.
Which isn't technically the case.
Now back in the real world, I'm not waiting on a T5 Vesper any more than you are.
But CBS hasn't said no to that.
Skip these threads. It's easy. I constantly skip threads I'm not interested in. There's like a dozen of them in the general forum I have zero interest in. And most of them are on topics that have been discussed to death. But me? I go click on stuff I am interested in.
Like T5 Connie threads.
If they allow a T5 Vesper and Excalibur then people are going to demand the Exeter skin be available, and then you are getting really close to Connie territory. Not to mention the cries "if you can do an Excalibur why not a Constitution?"
In the grand scheme of things it is probably better for Cryptic to just leave all 4 T2 Cruiser skins out of the mix.
He's said it several times over the years in a few ask Cryptics, interviews, etc. I'm not sure where you're getting 'one actual' statement from. Geko has said it a few times, other devs have refused to even comment on it in interviews because they don't want to get caught in the firestorm that usually comes with it.
Geko is the last actual dev source we've heard from on the subject, and he basically said its a nonstarter. I find it hard to believe Cryptic would turn down easy money like that without a solid reason behind it.
Given how ridiculous the ship line up has gotten, there are only a couple logical reasons I can think of: 1 CBS did say no to the whole set of ships, or 2 As cosmic suggested, they just don't want the trouble that would come with leaving the Connie out of a T2 cruiser fleet ship.
This is probably one of the best and most logical arguments against a T5 Connie I have ever read. I like it.
Fleet Admiral Rylana - Fed Tac - U.S.S Wild Card - Tactical Miracle Worker Cruiser
Lifetime Subscriber since 2012 == 17,200 Accolades = RIP PvP and Vice Squad
Chief of Starfleet Intelligence Service == Praise Cheesus
one dies, 3 more arise...futile effort unless mods do like a rule to forums...
http://www.arcgames.com/en/games/star-trek-online/news/detail/10052253
Why are you not rejoicing?
Kay
/10char
Lack of a T5 ship that can get the Exeter skin keeps me from sinking real money into buying it. You'd think they'd want more people purchasing those mid level ships PLUS the modules/unlocks to get the T5 versions. No interest in the Constitution or it's refit personally, just interested in flying an Exeter for more than the 10-20 run which can be done in less than a day.
Don't like the topic, don't read or post in it, if it bothers you that much. That goes for anybody that b***hes about Tier 5 Constitution threads.
The refit version of the Constitution was still in service as late as the 2360's. That is canonically supported. The U.S.S. Olympia and the unnamed Constitution that was lost at Wolf 359, are two examples that I know of.
Plenty of older ships from the age of phaser banks/emitters remained in service well past the Dominion War in canon. One of them is considered one of the best, if not the best, cruiser in the game (STO). That would be the Excelsior Class.
For the record, the primary core of the NCC-1701-A was of the vertical type in the last days of it's service. Hell, that was the case with the 2270's refit. Only the intermix chamber remained horizontal.
The fact is that while older hulls would be retired, nothing would stop the production of newer vessels or activation of low maintenance hulls from mothballs (as was the case with the Constellation Class vessels in the years after Wolf 359).
The design of the Constitution Class was one of the most durable in Starfleet's history up to the point of it's initial in-service date. It laid the groundwork for future long term exploratory vessels. That durability, combined with the fact that the class was designed with constant refits/upgrades in mind, would allow for a very long time in service, in various roles. Not just low level yeoman service. The aforementioned Olympia was on an eight year mission to the Beta Quadrant. You don't send useless old relics on jobs like that. You send starships that are to up to date standards and viable.
Ultimately, though, the whole age argument is moot when it comes to the actual game. The Tier Five Excelsior and T'Varo (to name a couple of examples) are proof of that.
That was the case for the pre-2270's versions in the game. However, what you posted is irrelevant when talking about the movie-era version and modern cruiser variants. If a replica of a 22nd Century starship can be built with modern technology, and non-Starfleet vessels whose basic designs can be traced back to the same period can be bought at Fleet level, there is no lore or game play reasons for older, lower tier iconic ships to be only borderline useful at endgame. And it doesn't explain why their newer stablemates remain at that low level, with no endgame versions.
Truth is, there is no real reason to make justifications for or against. Simply, because of the numbers of old-school, non-Federation vessels and modern alien starships that can be flown by anybody at endgame level. The old "anything goes" horse has escaped the barn a long time ago.
On another note.....
As snoggysmack has pointed out, the CBS prohibition applied to The Original Series variant of the Constitution. Many people seem to assume that, from limited tidbits of information, CBS has prohibited all pre-Next Generation starships from having Tier Five versions. Which, of course, is pure bulls**t unless a dev comes right out and clearly says otherwise.
Like I said, dislike the topic that much, avoid it. And don't dictate what others discuss, with this drill instructor tone. As long as those discussions don't violate the Terms of Service, they are good to go.
It's good to see another person who actually takes a look at the details and posts them in here. I can barely summon the effort after all the times iv'e seen people blatantly dismiss proof of the ships eligibility for tier 5.
Even in canon trek a ship from the same era as the Connie Refit was brought up to a competitive mount with the Defiant, Star Fleets only known pure combat ship.
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actually, the excelsior was refit/retrofitted heavily in its service time the ones you see in DS9 had photons/quantum torps and phaser arrays just like other current gen starfleet ships.
the connies designs had so many flaws it was easier to just retire it and build different ships.
also, it's any and all connies, not the T1 Light cruiser variant that arent allowed T5 versions. thats why we cannot have any T2 cruiser variant at T5, because they can use the connie skin.
CBS owns the Constitution design, and CBS very bluntly said no. You want a tier 5 Connie, the corporate suits at CBS are the ones you need to convince, not the forum community.
It's not that you're beating a dead horse, it's that you're beating the wrong horse.
Why is everyone so obsessed with bringing 100+ year old designs into STO? Look at the real world, does the US Navy still refurbish and field Monitor-class ironclads anymore? 'Cause in Star Trek, that's the Connie or the NX.
Much as i love the Excelsior, even that has no place in the 25th century, IMO. It's over a century old! Surely the Federation has come up with something more modern that fits the role in that time.
The connie in-game is EXACTLY where it belongs, at the bottom tier compared to the Vesta, Odyssey, and other "modern" cruisers.
You all are letting nostalgia cloud your perception. I love the USS Constitution (old ironsides), and love to visit it for tours. But that doesn't mean we should send it to sea for active duty.
The Vesper looks like an Excelsior. A ship they have no problems allowing at end-game.
Everytime they've mentioned it, even in Dan's comment, they've hedged with "I wouldn't say never" or some other vague language that suggests the door isn't closed.
So again let's keep this clear:
The only official statement comes from DSTahl. Who was saying what CBS said.
Everything else has been dev chatter with a vague ending that leaves the door open.
The CBS Said No blanket statement gets miscommunicated by posters in each and every one of these threads. Just like you just did.
with the power creep it would be fine as a tier 4
Saphire.. Science ground......Ko'el Romulan space Tac
Leva........Tactical ground.....Koj Romulan space Eng
JJ-Verse will never be Canon or considered Lore...It will always be JJ-Verse
Age is not a determining factor for why ships are in the game. Fan desire to want to buy them is the determining factor. Unfortunately it is CBS who has put the clamps on the Connie, as many Devs have expressed a desire to make it and sell it - knowing it would be a HUGE money maker.
Three questions:
1- Why did you cite the Vesta? It's not a cruiser.
2- Explain why "modern" cruisers like the Cheyenne and Excelsior aren't also at the bottom?
3- Why are the D'Kyr, Somraw, T'Liss, B'Rel, K'Tinga and Wells all at the same level of effectiveness as the Intrepid, Galaxy and Sovereign? If you know, age matters?
Oh, that's the problem, age SHOULD matter, but doesn't in STO.
The question I asked was WHY would a player want to float around in an antique and expect it to fight like a modern ship? Cryptic fed this by putting up so many nostalgia ships. Maybe they should make a seperate STO for 23rd-24th Century play (Lost Era). I would play that, and would definitely want an Excelsior or Connie.
But quite honestly, we saw what happens to Excelsiors and Mirandas when they face modern enemies on DS9. They were basically cannon fodder that died with one or two shots.
Somehow, i don't think Starfleet would upgrade and keep building them for another 40 years.
This is, of course, a matter of taste, and i understand why Cryptic offers them (because people will buy them)
My question is why play a game representing a future timeline (25th century) and use 23rd century tech? I could care less if there is a T5 connie because to me it breaks immersion to be fighting the borg in an advanced ship like the odyssey or Avenger and seeing a relic of 1960's design racking up kille.
BTW, the Vesta IS a cruiser. It was invented for the ST pocket books series. It is a Cruiser.
in STO, "Science Vessel" still = CRUISER.
Hope you got that clear this time.
I apologize to all of the people who are "offended" (?) by my posting my thoughts on the forums. I am truly sorry if My thread took up one of the precious 20 spots on the first page, but I had to ask.....
So a little more info
While the age of the ship is a concern and CBS's alleged "nos" also concerning, I am thinking from more of a fun perspective. TO me when I play Star Trek I do not want to play the Cryptic ships. While the art work is fantastic on the Odysseys and the Avengers, but I have personal tastes for the Galaxies, Sovereigns, and defiants as I want to fly the ships that I saw on the TV shows and Movies. This includes loading my characters up with the WoK uniforms and cruising around in my Constitution class star ship.
Is that such a horrible crime to want? Is it such a huge game breaking issue that a small cosmetic tweak may increase some peoples enjoyment of the game?
Anyway I hope your at least entertained.
The detail you and many other posters overlook is the Path to 2409 established that none of the ships in this game are old. They may have old "looks" but are all being produced with modern tech, modern hulls fresh out of the shipyard.
The path to 2409 established that O'Brien and the Corps of Engineers developed the modular ship design tech so that all of the new captains shoved into the war with the undine could have a brand new ship quickly and have it customizable to their preferences and their mission parameters.
This was the book/timeline's explanation for why there were so many new captains and why they were choosing between three different skins at each level, which usually had a really old skin and two cryptic designed skins (Think Cheyenne and Stargazer at T3).
So that Excelsior? It's not been in service since the 2280s. You can tell this because its registry number isn't anywhere close to what a ship from that era would have been.
So if we're gonna start talking about details, you all should brush up on the details of this game's self written canon. Go out, and buy the novel. It's got a great chapter about Gorn versus Starfleet baseball teams that incites an incident with the Klingons.
I've read it a couple of times. Doesn't change the fact that all that garbage was thrown in to justify selling old ships in a game timeframe that makes them a century or more old.
In other words, like most entertainment, it caters to those with no imagination. "I wanna be like Captain kirk so i gotta have his ship" sort of thing.
Heaven help us is anyone ever broke out of the mold andecided to tell their OWN story.
This is what killed the Trek franchise in the early 2000's. Always looking back, never forward.
Hey, they find a way to get you guys your precious T5 rustbucket, I'm happy for you. Too bad they'll probably nerf my modern, state of the art ship so yours doesn't get waxed in a few shots.
In any case, if you want to tout "needs of the Many", fine. Connies were long out of service even before then. i defy you to find a single live, active-duty Connie in TNG, DS9, VOY, or any of the films past 6.
They were decomissioning them as early as 2285 (Star Trek III) so even using the logic of your book argument, you might see Excelsiors, Constellations, mirandas, and others. You would never see a Connie.
Ever.
So here's the thing right. Age doesn't matter. As we know. As you yourself cite. Thus any and all posts suggesting the Constitution can't work at T5 because it is old are null and void.
The reason there isn't currently a T5 version of that ship is because Dan said CBS said no. That's it. That's all there is. Age was never a factor. Not for this game.
This question is the easiest of all to answer. People want to play a star trek game and fly their favorite star trek ship in it. The reason people want to fly their favorite ship at end-game is because that's where people who play the game regularly spend the most of their playtime. So while it's great they can fly said ship for the first 10 levels, those are gone in the blink of an eye while the next 4 years are spent doing STFs at level 50. So they would like to fly their favorite ship at that level, because it's a game and it is fun to do that in a game.
Considering they also allow you to use those era's uniforms, its bridge, AND they made the Galileo shuttle as powerful as the runabout from DS9, it's already pretty much established that Cryptic is A-OK with letting its players play the game with the feel of any era even the TOS era.
It's a stretch. Most every ship in that show except the Defiant or one with Dukat or Worf on the crew was overmatched by the Jem'Hadar. Because of plot.
They explained this in the path to 2409. The ships are all new and modern. But can have the "look" of an older ship. It's a plot device used to explain game functions, so it's a little square peg in a round hole. But it's established for how a captain can have a Centaur or a Miranda and they work the exact same.
Ouch. No. Just no. In STO a science vessel is NOT a cruiser. Not even close. Cruisers have more weapons. Turn slower. More hull. Less shields. Cruiser commands. No beam targeting subsystems. They are very different ships. The Vesta is not a cruiser in this game. At all. Neither is the Rhode Island or the Olympic or the Intrepid.
*cough*D'Kyr*cough*