Being "disappointed" in a long time Trek veteran like Tim Russ coming to Star Trek Online is pettiness at its worst.
I think a lot of the hatred of voyager is deeply rooted in over-reaction to the show's "tokenism." Sure, it had a female captain, a black Vulcan, and a two-heritage Hispanic female engineer along with a Native American first officer, but hey, a space faring civilization, especially one that is supposedly involving not just nations but PLANETS of people, would surely have some diversity.
I think some people are going to take their resentment and bitterness toward the kind-of-liberal 90's to the grave.
Janeway was awesome. Kate Mulgrew is awesome. Voyager's consistency in the writing? Not so much.
Also, notice that no one calls Picard a psycho for his horrible character writing during the first three years of TNG or point out that Archer was an TRIBBLE of great magnitude that should be in charge of an Arby's let along a starship for four seasons? I'm not saying the typical Trek fanboy sexism is to blame for this... Okay, I am.
Back to the OP: Tuvok is the only reason I'm reinstalling the game today.
I think it's all about the consistency you mentioned. TNG eventually grew out of its earlier seasons, whereas Janeway kept right on being inconsistently written right up to the final episode. I think Kate Mulgrew did a wonderful job with what she got, but Voyager remains a case of 'what could have been' due to the seesaw writing IMO.
And Archer is horrible, just horrible. My nickname for him was 'captain plumber' because he looked and acted like a confused maintenance guy who wandered onto deck, rather than someone who should be remotely near the captain's chair.
Tuvok might not be my favorite Vulcan, but he's my favorite Voyager member.
I think it's all about the consistency you mentioned. TNG eventually grew out of its earlier seasons, whereas Janeway kept right on being inconsistently written right up to the final episode. I think Kate Mulgrew did a wonderful job with what she got, but Voyager remains a case of 'what could have been' due to the seesaw writing IMO.
And Archer is horrible, just horrible. My nickname for him was 'captain plumber' because he looked and acted like a confused maintenance guy who wandered onto deck, rather than someone who should be remotely near the captain's chair.
Tuvok might not be my favorite Vulcan, but he's my favorite Voyager member.
Archer really started to shine after he helped reform the Vulcan people in "The Forge". But hating on him is about as memetic as saying "Kirk totally killed or slept with every alien he met!"
IMO - Voyager was the WORST of all of the Trek franchises. A ship trying to make its way back to Earth? LOL I already saw that show back in 1978 when it was called Battlestar Galactica. I feel justified in my reasons which are as follows:
- The Not-Klingons (er, Kaazon - cant wait for THAT lockbox LOL)
- Kes - enough said
- Chakotay - the generic stereotyped native american with a 'pick a tribe this week' background. VERY offensive as an aboriginal myself.
- Warp 10 Paris/Janeway lizard babies - WORSE than Spock Brain . . . actually WORSE!
- Niaomi Wyldman - enough said
- The Borg Partidge Family - are you kidding me?!
- Tuvix - enough said
- Borg singing 'You Are My Sunshine' - seriously . . . this actually HAPPENED and the show still has fans!
- And yes, Tuvok again IMO - a lackluster cookie-cut Vulcan with no real distinctive characteristics to make me interested in him as a character.
MY list of fave Trek Fanchises:
- TOS
- TNG
- DS9
- ENT
- Trek Animated
- Star Trek Phase II (Yup. Your eyes do not deceive. THIS is actually better story telling than . . .)
- VOY
Archer really started to shine after he helped reform the Vulcan people in "The Forge". But hating on him is about as memetic as saying "Kirk totally killed or slept with every alien he met!"
I think I'm quite capable of figuring out my own opinion of him from the shows I watched. I don't need any 'memes' to form my opinion.
Every episode of Enterprise I watched had him behaving in a wonderfully unprofessional, stupid, (and occasionally racist where Vulcans are concerned) way. The failings of the writers and the rest of the cast didn't help either. Enterprise was cancelled for a good reason IMO.
Technically, but it's easy to confuse with Tuvok's appearance on the Excelsior.
Was that the same scene with Takei in ?
These are the Voyages on the STO forum, the final frontier. Our continuing mission: to explore Pretentious Posts, to seek out new Overreactions and Misinformation , to boldly experience Cynicism like no man has before.......
IMO - Voyager was the WORST of all of the Trek franchises. A ship trying to make its way back to Earth? LOL I already saw that show back in 1978 when it was called Battlestar Galactica. I feel justified in my reasons which are as follows:
- The Not-Klingons (er, Kaazon - cant wait for THAT lockbox LOL)
- Kes - enough said
- Chakotay - the generic stereotyped native american with a 'pick a tribe this week' background. VERY offensive as an aboriginal myself.
- Warp 10 Paris/Janeway lizard babies - WORSE than Spock Brain . . . actually WORSE!
- Niaomi Wyldman - enough said
- The Borg Partidge Family - are you kidding me?!
- Tuvix - enough said
- Borg singing 'You Are My Sunshine' - seriously . . . this actually HAPPENED and the show still has fans!
- And yes, Tuvok again IMO - a lackluster cookie-cut Vulcan with no real distinctive characteristics to make me interested in him as a character.
MY list of fave Trek Fanchises:
- TOS
- TNG
- DS9
- ENT
- Trek Animated
- Star Trek Phase II (Yup. Your eyes do not deceive. THIS is actually better story telling than . . .)
- VOY
This is the memetic exercise I was talking about. These feel like opinions from committee, and the summary demand is "make everything grimdark and hardcore, like everything else". The "enough saids" are pretty presumptive, considering there's plenty that could be said about any of those things mentioned.
Yeah, I LOVED the Kes character! And Naomi... They were a nice change of pace from the regular not-quite-military Starfleet officer.
That's probably the heart of the matter here.
Some people want an overmilitarized everything. I liked Neelix, especially in his first appearances as a "Delta Quadrant Guide" I found him endearing. Of course that means I'm anathema with the "hate everything that isn't grimdark" hivemind.
He added little moments of levity to the show that were quite welcome, like the coffee substitute.
Also, notice that no one [...] or point out that Archer was an TRIBBLE of great magnitude that should be in charge of an Arby's let along a starship for four seasons?
Actually, I'm pretty sure a lot of people do. At least I know I do. Archer was an incompetent, whiny manchild.
Oh, and for the confused, the actual correct ordering of Star Trek shows is this:
I liked Neelix, especially in his first appearances as a "Delta Quadrant Guide" I found him endearing.
I actually found him better as Morale Officer. If he had gotten better writing he could have filled the Guinan role.
Of course that means I'm anathema with the "hate everything that isn't grimdark" hivemind.
I used to be like that. Then I realized that I was like that about people in their pajamas and I stopped. (That is to say: Nolan's Batman can bite me.)
"The more moral relativism and killing a show has the better it is"
DS9 had the better more consistent writing. I'm going to have to give it the edge over TNG.
However they're all also-rans compared to TOS and the contrary opinion is incorrect and something to be ashamed of.
DS9 had the better more consistent writing. I'm going to have to give it the edge over TNG.
However they're all also-rans compared to TOS and the contrary opinion is incorrect and something to be ashamed of.
Certainly not. There's nothing wrong with being in third place, and in fact it's was a very close third place; I almost made TOS equal with TNG, but I felt TNG's higher production value and slightly better characterization with actual character development (the TOS characters unfortunately remained largely static until the movies) put it slightly ahead of TOS.
You know what, I'm down with that. When you get Larry Niven to write one of your episodes you know you have a good series (referring to TAS.) :P
Bipedal mammal and senior Foundry author.
Notable missions: Apex [AEI], Gemini [SSF], Trident [AEI], Evolution's Smile [SSF], Transcendence
Looking for something new to play? I've started building Foundry missions again in visual novel form!
Yeah, I LOVED the Kes character! And Naomi... They were a nice change of pace from the regular not-quite-military Starfleet officer.
Same as me.
I liked Kes, until the end, then her backstory made no sense, and it was BS. As for Naomi, she was fine, she was a lot better than Wesley or Sisko's kid.
As for ST show, for me :
TNG>ENT>VOY>DS9.
DS9 characters were cool, except for the Kira Vedek BF (what an awful actor), but the main story was lame, some individual episodes were great though. Don't know TOS and TAS enough to rate.
As for ent, I loved the "galaxy is yet to be discovered" vibe. Even the tech is new, everything is new.
Can people get over the uniform? It is STO you are allowed to wear any combination of uniform you want.
Well isn't Cryptic supposed to have a latest uniform from that time for the NPC's but for the players Cryptic will allow them to chose their favorite ones so its either they chose with something different or the Main uniform of that time.
Same as me.
I liked Kes, until the end, then her backstory made no sense, and it was BS. As for Naomi, she was fine, she was a lot better than Wesley or Sisko's kid.
As for ST show, for me :
TNG>ENT>VOY>DS9.
DS9 characters were cool, except for the Kira Vedek BF (what an awful actor), but the main story was lame, some individual episodes were great though. Don't know TOS and TAS enough to rate.
As for ent, I loved the "galaxy is yet to be discovered" vibe. Even the tech is new, everything is new.
The two of us may be in a minority here. It seems all the rage to throw the exploration and discovery part of Trek to the wind (you know, the TREK in Trek), and obsess about war a lot.
Now, if you'd asked me to name Trek actors I'd like to see do VA work in STO, I would not have named Tim Russ. That would have been an omission on my part. He's just not someone I would have thought of.
But he's a fine actor and Tuvok is a fine character for this game's timeline.
The two of us may be in a minority here. It seems all the rage to throw the exploration and discovery part of Trek to the wind (you know, the TREK in Trek), and obsess about war a lot.
Janeway was awesome. Kate Mulgrew is awesome. Voyager's consistency in the writing? Not so much.
Also, notice that no one calls Picard a psycho for his horrible character writing during the first three years of TNG or point out that Archer was an TRIBBLE of great magnitude that shouldn't be in charge of an Arby's let alone a starship for four seasons? I'm not saying the typical Trek fanboy sexism is to blame for this... Okay, I am.
I agree with you completely on the first couple of points. Kate Mulgrew is awesome, and played the role very well. The inconsistent writing of her character wasn't her fault...unfortunately, it created what is (in my opinion) a pretty lousy legacy for the character.
Personally, I tend to ignore the first couple years of TNG. The episodes are pretty awful, and I haven't revisited them in a loooong time, I have no doubt Picard made some lousy calls during that period.
You can't throw a rock around these forums without hitting someone calling out Archer for being a lousy captain, though...I would say he gets a lot more grief than Janeway does. I like Scott Bakula, but I think he was a lousy fit for the role of Archer. Enterprise suffered from most of the same problems Voyager did in the writers' room, but ENT had the advantage of being set before humanity had fully achieved its "enlightened" stage - when the Enterprise crew did something stupid, they would (usually) learn from it.
When the Voyager writers had Janeway do something bizarre, she would simply override the objections of Chakotay or whoever voiced their concerns, everything would work out fine, and the show would basically continue on as if Janeway had been right all along. No growth, and no learning.
I don't believe this has anything to do with Janeway being a woman - it's entirely the fault of the writers.
...talking to players is like being a mall Santa. Everyone immediately wants to tell you all of the things they want, and you are absolutely powerless to deliver 99% of them.
Comments
I think a lot of the hatred of voyager is deeply rooted in over-reaction to the show's "tokenism." Sure, it had a female captain, a black Vulcan, and a two-heritage Hispanic female engineer along with a Native American first officer, but hey, a space faring civilization, especially one that is supposedly involving not just nations but PLANETS of people, would surely have some diversity.
I think some people are going to take their resentment and bitterness toward the kind-of-liberal 90's to the grave.
And Archer is horrible, just horrible. My nickname for him was 'captain plumber' because he looked and acted like a confused maintenance guy who wandered onto deck, rather than someone who should be remotely near the captain's chair.
Tuvok might not be my favorite Vulcan, but he's my favorite Voyager member.
Archer really started to shine after he helped reform the Vulcan people in "The Forge". But hating on him is about as memetic as saying "Kirk totally killed or slept with every alien he met!"
- The Not-Klingons (er, Kaazon - cant wait for THAT lockbox LOL)
- Kes - enough said
- Chakotay - the generic stereotyped native american with a 'pick a tribe this week' background. VERY offensive as an aboriginal myself.
- Warp 10 Paris/Janeway lizard babies - WORSE than Spock Brain . . . actually WORSE!
- Niaomi Wyldman - enough said
- The Borg Partidge Family - are you kidding me?!
- Tuvix - enough said
- Borg singing 'You Are My Sunshine' - seriously . . . this actually HAPPENED and the show still has fans!
- And yes, Tuvok again IMO - a lackluster cookie-cut Vulcan with no real distinctive characteristics to make me interested in him as a character.
MY list of fave Trek Fanchises:
- TOS
- TNG
- DS9
- ENT
- Trek Animated
- Star Trek Phase II (Yup. Your eyes do not deceive. THIS is actually better story telling than . . .)
- VOY
My character Tsin'xing
Every episode of Enterprise I watched had him behaving in a wonderfully unprofessional, stupid, (and occasionally racist where Vulcans are concerned) way. The failings of the writers and the rest of the cast didn't help either. Enterprise was cancelled for a good reason IMO.
Was that the same scene with Takei in ?
This is the memetic exercise I was talking about. These feel like opinions from committee, and the summary demand is "make everything grimdark and hardcore, like everything else". The "enough saids" are pretty presumptive, considering there's plenty that could be said about any of those things mentioned.
My character Tsin'xing
That's probably the heart of the matter here.
Some people want an overmilitarized everything. I liked Neelix, especially in his first appearances as a "Delta Quadrant Guide" I found him endearing. Of course that means I'm anathema with the "hate everything that isn't grimdark" hivemind.
He added little moments of levity to the show that were quite welcome, like the coffee substitute.
Actually, I'm pretty sure a lot of people do. At least I know I do. Archer was an incompetent, whiny manchild.
Oh, and for the confused, the actual correct ordering of Star Trek shows is this:
DS9>TNG>TOS>>>VOY>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>ENT
"The more moral relativism and killing a show has the better it is"
Overly militarized culture. What do you expect.
I actually found him better as Morale Officer. If he had gotten better writing he could have filled the Guinan role.
I used to be like that. Then I realized that I was like that about people in their pajamas and I stopped. (That is to say: Nolan's Batman can bite me.)
DS9 had the better more consistent writing. I'm going to have to give it the edge over TNG.
However they're all also-rans compared to TOS and the contrary opinion is incorrect and something to be ashamed of.
Certainly not. There's nothing wrong with being in third place, and in fact it's was a very close third place; I almost made TOS equal with TNG, but I felt TNG's higher production value and slightly better characterization with actual character development (the TOS characters unfortunately remained largely static until the movies) put it slightly ahead of TOS.
My character Tsin'xing
No, you broke it, ENT has no business being that high.
(And I actually consider TAS to be part of TOS.)
My character Tsin'xing
You know what, I'm down with that. When you get Larry Niven to write one of your episodes you know you have a good series (referring to TAS.) :P
Notable missions: Apex [AEI], Gemini [SSF], Trident [AEI], Evolution's Smile [SSF], Transcendence
Looking for something new to play? I've started building Foundry missions again in visual novel form!
But as usual ... the STO circle is complete ... (sooner then expected ...)
TNG > DS9 > VOY > TOS > ENT
I liked Kes, until the end, then her backstory made no sense, and it was BS. As for Naomi, she was fine, she was a lot better than Wesley or Sisko's kid.
As for ST show, for me :
TNG>ENT>VOY>DS9.
DS9 characters were cool, except for the Kira Vedek BF (what an awful actor), but the main story was lame, some individual episodes were great though. Don't know TOS and TAS enough to rate.
As for ent, I loved the "galaxy is yet to be discovered" vibe. Even the tech is new, everything is new.
Well isn't Cryptic supposed to have a latest uniform from that time for the NPC's but for the players Cryptic will allow them to chose their favorite ones so its either they chose with something different or the Main uniform of that time.
The two of us may be in a minority here. It seems all the rage to throw the exploration and discovery part of Trek to the wind (you know, the TREK in Trek), and obsess about war a lot.
Now, if you'd asked me to name Trek actors I'd like to see do VA work in STO, I would not have named Tim Russ. That would have been an omission on my part. He's just not someone I would have thought of.
But he's a fine actor and Tuvok is a fine character for this game's timeline.
Shaaaaammmmee
http://truedemocracyparty.net/wp-content/uploads/strawmanargument.jpg
My character Tsin'xing
I agree with you completely on the first couple of points. Kate Mulgrew is awesome, and played the role very well. The inconsistent writing of her character wasn't her fault...unfortunately, it created what is (in my opinion) a pretty lousy legacy for the character.
Personally, I tend to ignore the first couple years of TNG. The episodes are pretty awful, and I haven't revisited them in a loooong time, I have no doubt Picard made some lousy calls during that period.
You can't throw a rock around these forums without hitting someone calling out Archer for being a lousy captain, though...I would say he gets a lot more grief than Janeway does. I like Scott Bakula, but I think he was a lousy fit for the role of Archer. Enterprise suffered from most of the same problems Voyager did in the writers' room, but ENT had the advantage of being set before humanity had fully achieved its "enlightened" stage - when the Enterprise crew did something stupid, they would (usually) learn from it.
When the Voyager writers had Janeway do something bizarre, she would simply override the objections of Chakotay or whoever voiced their concerns, everything would work out fine, and the show would basically continue on as if Janeway had been right all along. No growth, and no learning.
I don't believe this has anything to do with Janeway being a woman - it's entirely the fault of the writers.