The problem with DPS is the huge stacks of damage buffs and resistance debuffs. If you take it down to weapons and tactical consoles only, you have very different DPS.
DHC does 256 base damage per second. So, if you max out the weapon skills on an escort with VR tactical consoles and 5 DHC's:
(256 * 1.5 + 256 * 1.2) * ((125 - 12 * 5) * 0.02) = 898.6 DPS or 4,493 DPS for all 5
Suddenly it seems a lot more tame. Let's try a beam array:
(176 * 1.5 + 176 * 1.2) * ((125 - 10 * 5) * 0.02) = 712.8 DPS or 3,564 DPS for all 5
That looks pretty normalized to me. Beams are only slightly less damaging than a DHC and they have a much larger arc. Add a sixth beam and the damage increases to 3,706 DPS. "Oh, but what about a science ship with beams?", you say? Well:
(176 * 1.5 + 176 * 0.9) * ((125 - 10 * 6) * 0.02) = 549.1 DPS or 3,294.7 DPS for all 6
780.4 * 3 + 453.3 * 3 = 3,701.1 DPS (Three SC's instead of DBB's would net a marginally lower DPS, but with double the forward arc)
Still, the DHC escort has the advantage, but not by a huge margin as it would if it were using damage multipliers. But, just to be fair, let's put turrets on the back of that escort:
So, some adjustments need to be made because the total power level drops below 50. Exchange 3 DHC's for 2 DC's and use the last slot for a torpedo. Now, setting the torpedo DPS aside:
That's a bit better than the pure DHC build and we haven't even included a torpedo in the DPS calculations. However, I think I've made the point clear. Damage is out of control because damage multiplying abilities and gear is out of control. Limiting it to just the weapons, power levels, and tactical consoles makes it far more normalized, but still giving escorts an edge without being overkill. It's the space magic that makes STO so broken.
Go here and show your support for a better Foundry!
@OP: Wut? I though damage was firmly in control? /kidding
My experiences of the past time firmly confirmed that Metallica can be quoted on that one: "taste it, you will see: more is all you need". Which made my sci's a little sad. Moreso since running sci with my fleet teams will these days risk me an AFK penalty.
*shrugs*
I find my attention shifting away from STO in the current meta. The full-on dps-focus is just not my cup of tea. That's ok. I'm sure there's enough people that do want to see "Big Numbers!!!11!1", mainly. Eventually there may be a shift back to a more diverse meta, maybe some control and/or (functionality) debuff; that'd be nicer for me. Or maybe there won't. We'll see. Depends on the next 6 months of balance passes and newly introduced content, I guess.
I wouldn't mind a sizable nerf to dps, coupled with a slightly smaller nerf to resist stacking and healing, while introducing an expose/exploit mechanic to space. That could be fun. Stimulates team tactics. And/or intelligent build-making. Though I guess that means it probably won't happen.
Using SB24 is an interesting idea for parsing. I tried to find that the other day and didn't see it in the PvE queue. Don't do it that often. Do I have to go to the sector location to start it, or should it be in the queue?
SB24's a Fed-only PvE instance.
SB234's in Tau Dewa...can't remember if it's above right, left, or just above New Romulus.
snip
Moreso since running sci with my fleet teams will these days risk me an AFK penalty.
snip
Sorry, but there is no reason a competent player risks an AFK penalty. You can easily do 10k DPS, without fancy gear or trying overly hard even as a sci in sciship. Perhaps your build needs some tweaking?
Lost and Delirious... and Disenchanted too Apparently some forum posters have diplomatic immunity nowadays, where can I get mine?
Sorry, but there is no reason a competent player risks an AFK penalty. You can easily do 10k DPS, without fancy gear or trying overly hard even as a sci in sciship. Perhaps your build needs some tweaking?
I'm trying to picture a Sci Vessel doing as you suggest there...
Sorry, but there is no reason a competent player risks an AFK penalty. You can easily do 10k DPS, without fancy gear or trying overly hard even as a sci in sciship. Perhaps your build needs some tweaking?
Ah, I'm just being melancholic and maybe exaggerating a bit for dramatic effect. I can get plenty of direct dps out of my sci ships to avoid AFK-penalty. Not even only by running a tac Vesta. It's just that I'm fondly remembering the days where it was fine to run a sci ship with a load of utility stuff.
It used to be pretty nice and helpful if I completely shut down a (tac) cube, so the team could start landing direct-to-hull hits right away, while also taking much less damage. Or if I bunched and incapacitated a cluster of spheres. Or CSE Raptors/Neghs. Nowadays, I try that kind of stuff, people rage at me for not FaW-ing stuff to death, after blowing everything to kingdom come in about 9 seconds (7 if Pharma brings the APB pets).
Very little stuff needs controlling or debuffing when it's space dust, it turns out.
I'm trying to picture a Sci Vessel doing as you suggest there...
FAW isn't hard at all
6 beams, dual FAW, EPtW (with EPtS using cooldown doffs) and it's practically a done deal. most new sci ships and even one free sci ship can do this, it's just that anyone who wants to run sci/sci probably isn't doing it to run dual FAW.
Are you talking about MK XII weapons or just the MK I? I ask because I was referring to MK XII and those numbers are MK I at best. If that's the case, aren't you being a bit slavish to semantics? As far as I see it, it's an irrelevant distinction.
Go here and show your support for a better Foundry!
It's mk 0, that is what base damage is. Then it is adjusted depending on mark and rarity. So when VD says base damage he's usually not referring to a specific mark as that gets factored into later calculations.
Are you talking about MK XII weapons or just the MK I? I ask because I was referring to MK XII and those numbers are MK I at best. If that's the case, aren't you being a bit slavish to semantics? As far as I see it, it's an irrelevant distinction.
Base damage is based off of the TRIBBLE/Mk 0 version of a weapon. It's the base damage. Mk I - Mk XII are not base damage - they're damage modified by Mark.
It's a major distinction, because certain bonuses are given off of base damage.
A +30% Tac console, is +30% base damage.
DHC with actual base of 174...+52.2 DPV.
Mk XII DHC with base of 384...+115.2 DPV.
It's not providing +115.2...because 384 is not the base. The base is 174. Each Mk provides ~0.1ish base damage. ~1.2 * 174 + 174 gets you to the 384. 384 is not base...it's a modified value.
edit: Skills, Consoles, various 2pc Set Bonuses, Rarity, Mark, etc, etc, etc - there are several buffs to damage that are based on the base value...it's not just semantics, the base is the base.
Base damage is based off of the TRIBBLE/Mk 0 version of a weapon. It's the base damage. Mk I - Mk XII are not base damage - they're damage modified by Mark.
It's a major distinction, because certain bonuses are given off of base damage.
A +30% Tac console, is +30% base damage.
DHC with actual base of 174...+52.2 DPV.
Mk XII DHC with base of 384...+115.2 DPV.
It's not providing +115.2...because 384 is not the base. The base is 174. Each Mk provides ~0.1ish base damage. ~1.2 * 174 + 174 gets you to the 384. 384 is not base...it's a modified value.
edit: Skills, Consoles, various 2pc Set Bonuses, Rarity, Mark, etc, etc, etc - there are several buffs to damage that are based on the base value...it's not just semantics, the base is the base.
Alright then, the formula should be changed:
(174 * 2.2 * 2 / 3 * 1.5 + 174 * 1.2 * 2 / 3) * ((125 - 12 * 5) * 0.02) = 680 DPS or 3,400 DPS for all 5, am I right?
Go here and show your support for a better Foundry!
Playing a Vaper and critting from 20K to 130K on a BO3 coupled with other mechanics to make you pop is over kill some say. Though to do that requires a lot of timing to execute the attack so that we can achieve these insane numbers. Afterwards because we are glass cannons per se we have to escape. These actions take a lot of skilled maneuvers instead of those space bar jammers that complain about the damage overkill. I say learn how to play the game and stop complaining. I get vaped or mulled over by a scimitar but I just get right back up and figure a way counter to that. Happy Hunting!
Playing a Vaper and critting from 20K to 130K on a BO3 coupled with other mechanics to make you pop is over kill some say. Though to do that requires a lot of timing to execute the attack so that we can achieve these insane numbers. Afterwards because we are glass cannons per se we have to escape. These actions take a lot of skilled maneuvers instead of those space bar jammers that complain about the damage overkill. I say learn how to play the game and stop complaining. I get vaped or mulled over by a scimitar but I just get right back up and figure a way counter to that. Happy Hunting!
That's just condescending. PvP in this game requires esoteric knowledge that you can't easily find. Apathy doesn't do a bit of good to those that aren't in the know. It would be far more productive to share your experience with others. Treating others like they're beneath you isn't going to do you any credit and is only adding to the general disdain for PvP. If you care about PvP, you should be acting as an ambassador for PvP, not turning people off to it.
Go here and show your support for a better Foundry!
Playing a Vaper and critting from 20K to 130K on a BO3 coupled with other mechanics to make you pop is over kill some say. Though to do that requires a lot of timing to execute the attack so that we can achieve these insane numbers. Afterwards because we are glass cannons per se we have to escape. These actions take a lot of skilled maneuvers instead of those space bar jammers that complain about the damage overkill. I say learn how to play the game and stop complaining. I get vaped or mulled over by a scimitar but I just get right back up and figure a way counter to that. Happy Hunting!
Not sure if that's aimed at someone else or me (being OP (lol, I need nerfing)) but the discussion is about all forms of damage in all aspects of the game. Vaping isn't too hard so long as you get someone with their pants down, been doing a fair bit in Kerrat recently to see how much it's changed since double tap.
Generally the most detrimental thing to vapers are things like the dyson set instant shield regen, rsp, tt and maybe feedback pulse. Might be a few others but it's the one hit invincibility mode these things offer.
Still the point is has damage come out of balance? I know with damage levels as they currently are if you get hit by some science it can usually mean a death sentence in PvP especially if your squishy and certainly in PvE there is little need of anything but damage.
The more complex the system is for generating damage, the greater the likelihood we'll find a way to exploit it.
There was a time when 5K dps was considered a decent benchmark in game. It was sufficient for beating the existing STF's in a reasonable amount of time.
Then 10K became the new performance target. It was becoming a race to see how quickly we could finish an STF.
Then the big shift - 20, 30, 40 and 50K became possible. A lot of effort and math went into streamlining these characters. Albeit they need to pad these numbers by continuously firing at every target, regardless of whether it's real damage or not.... (edit: dps players are not bad people, just annoying when they brag.)
But for the high dps players, it's not about playing the game. It's about breaking through arbitrary barriers.
Once upon a time when Tricobalts were 'breaking' stf's... you know who you are... Cryptic responded with a nerf. Now you rarely see Tricobalt mines in use. No more 1-hit kills.
There is a solution.Scalable Threat Response.
When spikes in excess of 20K dps are detected, the scale of attack should rise. 1 Cube per 5K dps increase in spike damage above 20K dps per individual player. Or maybe reintroduce the invistorp of death again.
Or - make APB user only... not team?
Doing 30K dps? Have the clock speed up by a factor of 2.
Doing 40K dps? Try that now with 6 cubes showing up to deal with you.
Put a cap on how much -resist there is. Make this -100 so it would take 2 people with APB3's with 99 points into this skill to max it out. This still doubles your damage and your team mates damage. It also means that while soloing your APB and your pet's APB will still work and you won't hit the cap. Multiple stacks from pets still caps it at -100.
Use diminishing returns like positive resist has for abilities which increase your damage by X %. Although perhaps not as heavy of a DR as positive resist uses. Or cap this at +100% or less. But have damage coming out of cloak as being able to exceed this value for it's additional 15-25%.
The first takes care of PvE and PvP. It would not hinder the casual player during an STF as it's the APB stacking that makes it trivial. The last takes care of both. But perhaps it's more useful for PvP as it will remove some of these 1 shot kills.
I think combining the 2 if done right would be the answer to both PvE and PvP.
The more complex the system is for generating damage, the greater the likelihood we'll find a way to exploit it.
There was a time when 5K dps was considered a decent benchmark in game. It was sufficient for beating the existing STF's in a reasonable amount of time.
Then 10K became the new performance target. It was becoming a race to see how quickly we could finish an STF.
Then the big shift - 20, 30, 40 and 50K became possible. A lot of effort and math went into streamlining these characters. Albeit they need to pad these numbers by continuously firing at every target, regardless of whether it's real damage or not.... (edit: dps players are not bad people, just annoying when they brag.)
But for the high dps players, it's not about playing the game. It's about breaking through arbitrary barriers.
Once upon a time when Tricobalts were 'breaking' stf's... you know who you are... Cryptic responded with a nerf. Now you rarely see Tricobalt mines in use. No more 1-hit kills.
There is a solution.Scalable Threat Response.
When spikes in excess of 20K dps are detected, the scale of attack should rise. 1 Cube per 5K dps increase in spike damage above 20K dps per individual player. Or maybe reintroduce the invistorp of death again.
Or - make APB user only... not team?
Doing 30K dps? Have the clock speed up by a factor of 2.
Doing 40K dps? Try that now with 6 cubes showing up to deal with you.
The Borg adapt. So should the game.
My Two Bits.
I like this. Scaling Response. But where does that scale start? How does it affect the team? If one DCP* is popping off massive spikes and one person is doing average 5-8k range, and the other three are barely breaking 1.2k, how does it all mesh?
Does the enitre match start to scale? if you are say in KASE and are railing gens does something bigger come in instead of a cube? Do speheres start rolling towards the vortex instead of probes?
I love this idea, i really do. But i would like to see you flesh the idea out more, and some dev might think its brilliant and implement it in their "nightmare" mode
Inertia just means you can do Powerslides in you carrier!
I am Il Shadow and i approve these Shennanigans!
[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
Use diminishing returns like positive resist has for abilities which increase your damage by X %. Although perhaps not as heavy of a DR as positive resist uses. Or cap this at +100% or less. But have damage coming out of cloak as being able to exceed this value for it's additional 15-25%.
That's not a good idea. Make resist debuffs stronger than resist buffs? We already have that. Honestly, resistance shouldn't fall below 0%. The problem with it is the damage multipliers (like APA). You have consoles that multiply damage, skill trees that multiply, and you have abilities that multiply damage. Damage is multiplied by several different systems, all at the same time.
Go here and show your support for a better Foundry!
Even better, give everything on the map maximum Auxiliary Feedback Pulse III with 300 in particle generators.
Hey, those DPS elitists said they want harder PvE content...
Not cool. Noobs that caouldnt survive in the first place would be obliterated. If you critted an Antiproton array with that active it would punch you in the face.
Giving the things, things like RSP would be ok, minor abilities like HE and TSS and Aux2Sif would be cool. Let them heal, shake off some spike damage sure.
But do not turn them into even bigger mighty mooks. Give them strategies, abilities that arent just ways to annoy players and 1-shot.
A cahllenge implies far more than just hit it more times and find a larger hammer....
Inertia just means you can do Powerslides in you carrier!
I am Il Shadow and i approve these Shennanigans!
[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
I like the FBP idea but it shouldn't be every NPC that gets it, see my first post on page one of this thread Then we can all enjoy the show as the 30k+ FAW spammers melt themselves on the insta-healing targets
Spike damage may need a nerf --- the ability to wipe someone out so fast is getting very close to the lag in the system (human reaction times + net lag), and a game where where the first guy to shoot wins is not fun *in this setting* (there are games where that is more acceptable, but IMPO it does not belong here).
However as for damage in general, I think we need a spiral up rather than nerfs. If dps is too high, the next generation of ships or "rep perks" or gear can be more defense oriented to offset it, rather than dps oriented.
At the end of the day, though, I would very, very strongly suggest that the game is DUE for a level cap increase, with new ships, gear, and content. They may be able to eek out a few more seasons as-is, but the gap between a new level 50 and a geared one is already 10 levels effectively, soon to be 15, then 20... another 2 years and a geared 50 will be capable of soloing normal 5 man content.
Damage resistance debuffing is a bit out of control in PvE, but the main issue is a PvE environment where the enemies stay the same and players perpetually increase in power.
The STFs people are still playing daily were re-mastered (not released, they were released earlier) for Season Five: Call to Arms - released on December 1, 2011.
It's now January 2014.
Could you imagine another MMO where a raid/endgame mission is still being farmed by players 2 years later with associated power creep?
You'd see pretty much the same thing.
Why is this the case?
Because the game has been tweaked so that anyone, in anybuild, can do any content and "have a blast".
They really do not balance this game to challenge the min/maxers.
We're welcome here, but don't expect much content that isn't designed for the low/middle ability players - because you won't see it.
They really do not balance this game to challenge the min/maxers.
Part of the problem is they can't. The vast majority of stos playerbase is incredibly casual even by mmo standards. Anything that challenges peopel actually optimizing their builds is going to be nearly unbeatable for a substantial portion of the player base and its hard to justify devoting development time to something most people can't play.
I blame all the people who think they should be able to beat endgame content in their canon torp/beam/cannon builds they randomly slapped boff abilities onto. That's not what endgames in mmos are about. They're supposed to challenge the people abusing mechanics with perfect gear not be doable in whatever you had lying around in your bank.
Can you imagine the amount of qq the forums would be filled with if they released something like a wow raid where you need an optimized fully geared char and a competent team to beat. It'd probably bring down the servers with the weight of the tears.
Part of the problem is they can't. The vast majority of stos playerbase is incredibly casual even by mmo standards. Anything that challenges peopel actually optimizing their builds is going to be nearly unbeatable for a substantial portion of the player base and its hard to justify devoting development time to something most people can't play.
I blame all the people who think they should be able to beat endgame content in their canon torp/beam/cannon builds they randomly slapped boff abilities onto. That's not what endgames in mmos are about. They're supposed to challenge the people abusing mechanics with perfect gear not be doable in whatever you had lying around in your bank.
Can you imagine the amount of qq the forums would be filled with if they released something like a wow raid where you need an optimized fully geared char and a competent team to beat. It'd probably bring down the servers with the weight of the tears.
You're generalizing what an MMO is. It's an online multiplayer game with social features. That's it. Anything more than that and you're getting into a genre of games. An MMO does not have to be what you describe and that's not necessarily the best version of it either. STO does lack challenge, but it lacks a lot of other things too. An MMO can be a lot of things, don't pigeon-hole it into something you think it must be. That just makes it stale like the rest of the MMO's out there.
Go here and show your support for a better Foundry!
Comments
DHC does 256 base damage per second. So, if you max out the weapon skills on an escort with VR tactical consoles and 5 DHC's:
(256 * 1.5 + 256 * 1.2) * ((125 - 12 * 5) * 0.02) = 898.6 DPS or 4,493 DPS for all 5
Suddenly it seems a lot more tame. Let's try a beam array:
(176 * 1.5 + 176 * 1.2) * ((125 - 10 * 5) * 0.02) = 712.8 DPS or 3,564 DPS for all 5
That looks pretty normalized to me. Beams are only slightly less damaging than a DHC and they have a much larger arc. Add a sixth beam and the damage increases to 3,706 DPS. "Oh, but what about a science ship with beams?", you say? Well:
(176 * 1.5 + 176 * 0.9) * ((125 - 10 * 6) * 0.02) = 549.1 DPS or 3,294.7 DPS for all 6
Or DBB and turrets?
(229 * 1.5 + 229 * 0.9) * ((125 - (10 * 3 + 8 * 3)) * 0.02) = 780.4 DPS
(133 * 1.5 + 133 * 0.9) * ((125 - (10 * 3 + 8 * 3) * 0.02) = 453.3 DPS
780.4 * 3 + 453.3 * 3 = 3,701.1 DPS (Three SC's instead of DBB's would net a marginally lower DPS, but with double the forward arc)
Still, the DHC escort has the advantage, but not by a huge margin as it would if it were using damage multipliers. But, just to be fair, let's put turrets on the back of that escort:
(256 * 1.5 + 256 * 1.2) * ((125 - (12 * 5 + 8 * 2) * 0.02) = 677.4 DPS
(133 * 1.5 + 133 * 1.2) * ((125 - (12 * 5 + 8 * 2) * 0.02) = 351.9 DPS
351.9 * 2 + 677.4 * 5 = 4,090.8 DPS
So, some adjustments need to be made because the total power level drops below 50. Exchange 3 DHC's for 2 DC's and use the last slot for a torpedo. Now, setting the torpedo DPS aside:
(256 * 1.5 + 256 * 1.2) * ((125 - (12 * 2 + 10 * 2 + 8 * 2) * 0.02) = 898.6 DPS
(133 * 1.5 + 133 * 1.2) * ((125 - (12 * 2 + 10 * 2 + 8 * 2) * 0.02) = 466.8 DPS
466.8 * 2 + 898.6 * 4 = 4,528 DPS
That's a bit better than the pure DHC build and we haven't even included a torpedo in the DPS calculations. However, I think I've made the point clear. Damage is out of control because damage multiplying abilities and gear is out of control. Limiting it to just the weapons, power levels, and tactical consoles makes it far more normalized, but still giving escorts an edge without being overkill. It's the space magic that makes STO so broken.
My experiences of the past time firmly confirmed that Metallica can be quoted on that one: "taste it, you will see: more is all you need". Which made my sci's a little sad. Moreso since running sci with my fleet teams will these days risk me an AFK penalty.
*shrugs*
I find my attention shifting away from STO in the current meta. The full-on dps-focus is just not my cup of tea. That's ok. I'm sure there's enough people that do want to see "Big Numbers!!!11!1", mainly. Eventually there may be a shift back to a more diverse meta, maybe some control and/or (functionality) debuff; that'd be nicer for me. Or maybe there won't. We'll see. Depends on the next 6 months of balance passes and newly introduced content, I guess.
I wouldn't mind a sizable nerf to dps, coupled with a slightly smaller nerf to resist stacking and healing, while introducing an expose/exploit mechanic to space. That could be fun. Stimulates team tactics. And/or intelligent build-making. Though I guess that means it probably won't happen.
SB24's a Fed-only PvE instance.
SB234's in Tau Dewa...can't remember if it's above right, left, or just above New Romulus.
Base DPV/Base DPS
Turret: 45/60
Cannon: 67/89.3
Dual Cannons: 87/116
Dual Heavy Cannons: 174/116
Beam Array: 100/80
Dual Beam Bank: 130/104
Sorry, but there is no reason a competent player risks an AFK penalty. You can easily do 10k DPS, without fancy gear or trying overly hard even as a sci in sciship. Perhaps your build needs some tweaking?
Apparently some forum posters have diplomatic immunity nowadays, where can I get mine? [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
I'm trying to picture a Sci Vessel doing as you suggest there...
Ah, I'm just being melancholic and maybe exaggerating a bit for dramatic effect. I can get plenty of direct dps out of my sci ships to avoid AFK-penalty. Not even only by running a tac Vesta. It's just that I'm fondly remembering the days where it was fine to run a sci ship with a load of utility stuff.
It used to be pretty nice and helpful if I completely shut down a (tac) cube, so the team could start landing direct-to-hull hits right away, while also taking much less damage. Or if I bunched and incapacitated a cluster of spheres. Or CSE Raptors/Neghs. Nowadays, I try that kind of stuff, people rage at me for not FaW-ing stuff to death, after blowing everything to kingdom come in about 9 seconds (7 if Pharma brings the APB pets).
Very little stuff needs controlling or debuffing when it's space dust, it turns out.
Oh, I thought it was a typo. I haven't tried SB234 yet. I thought that was a PvP queue.
FAW isn't hard at all
6 beams, dual FAW, EPtW (with EPtS using cooldown doffs) and it's practically a done deal. most new sci ships and even one free sci ship can do this, it's just that anyone who wants to run sci/sci probably isn't doing it to run dual FAW.
Are you talking about MK XII weapons or just the MK I? I ask because I was referring to MK XII and those numbers are MK I at best. If that's the case, aren't you being a bit slavish to semantics? As far as I see it, it's an irrelevant distinction.
It is through repetition that we learn our weakness.
A master with a stone is better than a novice with a sword.
Has damage got out of control?
This is the last thing I will post.
Base damage is based off of the TRIBBLE/Mk 0 version of a weapon. It's the base damage. Mk I - Mk XII are not base damage - they're damage modified by Mark.
It's a major distinction, because certain bonuses are given off of base damage.
A +30% Tac console, is +30% base damage.
DHC with actual base of 174...+52.2 DPV.
Mk XII DHC with base of 384...+115.2 DPV.
It's not providing +115.2...because 384 is not the base. The base is 174. Each Mk provides ~0.1ish base damage. ~1.2 * 174 + 174 gets you to the 384. 384 is not base...it's a modified value.
edit: Skills, Consoles, various 2pc Set Bonuses, Rarity, Mark, etc, etc, etc - there are several buffs to damage that are based on the base value...it's not just semantics, the base is the base.
Alright then, the formula should be changed:
(174 * 2.2 * 2 / 3 * 1.5 + 174 * 1.2 * 2 / 3) * ((125 - 12 * 5) * 0.02) = 680 DPS or 3,400 DPS for all 5, am I right?
I'm not THAT difficult to please, I just have a very low tolerance threshold for stupid BS! - George Carlin.
-A.K.A Syrah R.R.W MJOLNIR ***SAD PANDAS***
[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
That's just condescending. PvP in this game requires esoteric knowledge that you can't easily find. Apathy doesn't do a bit of good to those that aren't in the know. It would be far more productive to share your experience with others. Treating others like they're beneath you isn't going to do you any credit and is only adding to the general disdain for PvP. If you care about PvP, you should be acting as an ambassador for PvP, not turning people off to it.
I have no respect for those that cry "Nerf!" instead of adapting.
Kind of like some folks have no respect for those that pat themselves on the back for fishing in a barrel with grenades, eh?
Not sure if that's aimed at someone else or me (being OP (lol, I need nerfing)) but the discussion is about all forms of damage in all aspects of the game. Vaping isn't too hard so long as you get someone with their pants down, been doing a fair bit in Kerrat recently to see how much it's changed since double tap.
Generally the most detrimental thing to vapers are things like the dyson set instant shield regen, rsp, tt and maybe feedback pulse. Might be a few others but it's the one hit invincibility mode these things offer.
Still the point is has damage come out of balance? I know with damage levels as they currently are if you get hit by some science it can usually mean a death sentence in PvP especially if your squishy and certainly in PvE there is little need of anything but damage.
It is through repetition that we learn our weakness.
A master with a stone is better than a novice with a sword.
Has damage got out of control?
This is the last thing I will post.
...and say that's the problem with damage. Percentage-based bonuses are simply not working along a reasonable scale.
There was a time when 5K dps was considered a decent benchmark in game. It was sufficient for beating the existing STF's in a reasonable amount of time.
Then 10K became the new performance target. It was becoming a race to see how quickly we could finish an STF.
Then the big shift - 20, 30, 40 and 50K became possible. A lot of effort and math went into streamlining these characters. Albeit they need to pad these numbers by continuously firing at every target, regardless of whether it's real damage or not.... (edit: dps players are not bad people, just annoying when they brag.)
But for the high dps players, it's not about playing the game. It's about breaking through arbitrary barriers.
Once upon a time when Tricobalts were 'breaking' stf's... you know who you are... Cryptic responded with a nerf. Now you rarely see Tricobalt mines in use. No more 1-hit kills.
There is a solution. Scalable Threat Response.
When spikes in excess of 20K dps are detected, the scale of attack should rise. 1 Cube per 5K dps increase in spike damage above 20K dps per individual player. Or maybe reintroduce the invistorp of death again.
Or - make APB user only... not team?
Doing 30K dps? Have the clock speed up by a factor of 2.
Doing 40K dps? Try that now with 6 cubes showing up to deal with you.
The Borg adapt. So should the game.
My Two Bits.
Put a cap on how much -resist there is. Make this -100 so it would take 2 people with APB3's with 99 points into this skill to max it out. This still doubles your damage and your team mates damage. It also means that while soloing your APB and your pet's APB will still work and you won't hit the cap. Multiple stacks from pets still caps it at -100.
Use diminishing returns like positive resist has for abilities which increase your damage by X %. Although perhaps not as heavy of a DR as positive resist uses. Or cap this at +100% or less. But have damage coming out of cloak as being able to exceed this value for it's additional 15-25%.
The first takes care of PvE and PvP. It would not hinder the casual player during an STF as it's the APB stacking that makes it trivial. The last takes care of both. But perhaps it's more useful for PvP as it will remove some of these 1 shot kills.
I think combining the 2 if done right would be the answer to both PvE and PvP.
I like this. Scaling Response. But where does that scale start? How does it affect the team? If one DCP* is popping off massive spikes and one person is doing average 5-8k range, and the other three are barely breaking 1.2k, how does it all mesh?
Does the enitre match start to scale? if you are say in KASE and are railing gens does something bigger come in instead of a cube? Do speheres start rolling towards the vortex instead of probes?
I love this idea, i really do. But i would like to see you flesh the idea out more, and some dev might think its brilliant and implement it in their "nightmare" mode
I am Il Shadow and i approve these Shennanigans!
[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
That's not a good idea. Make resist debuffs stronger than resist buffs? We already have that. Honestly, resistance shouldn't fall below 0%. The problem with it is the damage multipliers (like APA). You have consoles that multiply damage, skill trees that multiply, and you have abilities that multiply damage. Damage is multiplied by several different systems, all at the same time.
Even better, give everything on the map maximum Auxiliary Feedback Pulse III with 300 in particle generators.
Hey, those DPS elitists said they want harder PvE content...
--->Ground Combat General Bugs Directory
Real join date: March 2012 / PvP Veteran since May 2012 (Ground and Space)
Not cool. Noobs that caouldnt survive in the first place would be obliterated. If you critted an Antiproton array with that active it would punch you in the face.
Giving the things, things like RSP would be ok, minor abilities like HE and TSS and Aux2Sif would be cool. Let them heal, shake off some spike damage sure.
But do not turn them into even bigger mighty mooks. Give them strategies, abilities that arent just ways to annoy players and 1-shot.
A cahllenge implies far more than just hit it more times and find a larger hammer....
I am Il Shadow and i approve these Shennanigans!
[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
However as for damage in general, I think we need a spiral up rather than nerfs. If dps is too high, the next generation of ships or "rep perks" or gear can be more defense oriented to offset it, rather than dps oriented.
At the end of the day, though, I would very, very strongly suggest that the game is DUE for a level cap increase, with new ships, gear, and content. They may be able to eek out a few more seasons as-is, but the gap between a new level 50 and a geared one is already 10 levels effectively, soon to be 15, then 20... another 2 years and a geared 50 will be capable of soloing normal 5 man content.
The STFs people are still playing daily were re-mastered (not released, they were released earlier) for Season Five: Call to Arms - released on December 1, 2011.
It's now January 2014.
Could you imagine another MMO where a raid/endgame mission is still being farmed by players 2 years later with associated power creep?
You'd see pretty much the same thing.
Why is this the case?
Because the game has been tweaked so that anyone, in anybuild, can do any content and "have a blast".
They really do not balance this game to challenge the min/maxers.
We're welcome here, but don't expect much content that isn't designed for the low/middle ability players - because you won't see it.
Part of the problem is they can't. The vast majority of stos playerbase is incredibly casual even by mmo standards. Anything that challenges peopel actually optimizing their builds is going to be nearly unbeatable for a substantial portion of the player base and its hard to justify devoting development time to something most people can't play.
I blame all the people who think they should be able to beat endgame content in their canon torp/beam/cannon builds they randomly slapped boff abilities onto. That's not what endgames in mmos are about. They're supposed to challenge the people abusing mechanics with perfect gear not be doable in whatever you had lying around in your bank.
Can you imagine the amount of qq the forums would be filled with if they released something like a wow raid where you need an optimized fully geared char and a competent team to beat. It'd probably bring down the servers with the weight of the tears.
You're generalizing what an MMO is. It's an online multiplayer game with social features. That's it. Anything more than that and you're getting into a genre of games. An MMO does not have to be what you describe and that's not necessarily the best version of it either. STO does lack challenge, but it lacks a lot of other things too. An MMO can be a lot of things, don't pigeon-hole it into something you think it must be. That just makes it stale like the rest of the MMO's out there.