I'm not one of those people. Nor is the vast majority of STO (which I can state with fair certainty), is my point. I'm in PUGs where ppl do ~3k DPS on average. And I used to be one of them, until recently.
Don't cripple *everyone*, just because there are a few gods who can do 50k. They do battle in strata I can't even fathom. I do not know them; and they sure as heck don't know me. Point being: they're not interfering with anyone, but themselves. Let them; and let me have my hard-earnt DPS at the lower end of the scale too.
i think that yest some of the builds are OP. however, it can be mitigated. you want to stop that 30K escort? make the sci powers to where they should be. tykins rift should shut them down. grav well should freeze them in place. viral matrix should leave them dead in the water.
and before the escort weenies start crying, the cooldown on most sci powers is a lot higher than CSV or CRF.
I have said it numerous times. the glass cannon escorts are made of titanium. an escort should NOT be able to face down a borg cube, let alone vape it in 15 seconds.
Spike of that range is a BoP job, not a Scimmy, it's also only useful in pvp due to the excessive cooldown, if anyone can show you how it's done though, it'll be Thissler, you can find their videos in the pvp section of the forums, some are quite entertaining :P
Tried watching a couple of those once, but they seemed more for entertainment and showing off than educational utility. Just a ton of stuff happening at high speed, but no real explanation as to what it meant (at least the ones I watched). Does anyone do videos where they pause midway through, stop and explain "And now I'm positioning here and queueing up ABC so that I can 123," then unpause and executing, then pausing again afterwards and adding "so as you can see, once you use 123, it then causes XYZ..." and so on? Less "Lets Play" more lecture hall? Or does nobody do those?
I have said it numerous times. the glass cannon escorts are made of titanium. an escort should NOT be able to face down a borg cube, let alone vape it in 15 seconds.
Yeah, this has almost always kind of been off...in typical MMO fashion, mind you...but it's definitely been off.
It's kind of funny, though, thinking about it - imagine if the folks running ISE in 2m or less - were the folks barely able to pull off a 15m optional sort of thing, eh?
Tried watching a couple of those once, but they seemed more for entertainment and showing off than educational utility. Just a ton of stuff happening at high speed, but no real explanation as to what it meant (at least the ones I watched). Does anyone do videos where they pause midway through, stop and explain "And now I'm positioning here and queueing up ABC so that I can 123," then unpause and executing, then pausing again afterwards and adding "so as you can see, once you use 123, it then causes XYZ..." and so on? Less "Lets Play" more lecture hall? Or does nobody do those?
Thissler's videos are almost 99.99% educational. There's the 0.01% where somebody ticks Thissler off, mind you.
I thought 50-70k were the high end of dps from A2B FAW Scimitars running Experimental Romulan beam arrays?
Can you Alpha strike with FAW?
Really like to see a video of that it would blow that scimitar solos ISE video outta the ballpark.
DPS != Damage
Specialized vape builds care 0 for the total parsed DPS. The ridiculously high spike damage is what they are after.
50-70k DPS in parsing an STF in total is not nearly as useful in PVP or PVE as spikes surpassing that damage in less than a second.
Does anyone do videos where they pause midway through, stop and explain "And now I'm positioning here and queueing up ABC so that I can 123,"
Thats the easy part, wait for their buffs to drop, then you queue ALL of your +dmg skills at one time, longest CD to shortest CD, then unload it all into one unsuspecting target to make him respawn.
Karrock/Karreck/Darth Karrock/Unspoken House of Beautiful Orions PUNISH THE FEDs
Hmm, Well I know a 200k hit can be done with a critt'd THY-3 and Quantums, done that but that is still far shy of a 1mil dmg hit.
Even stacking: THY-3, Full-Aux Ionized particle beam, BO-2, TB-1, and IsoMetric charge under the full APA, APO-3, Tac Fleet, TT-1, Quantum Singularity bonus buff with a de-cloaking Rom-Bush dmg bonus I would think you could approach a 500-600k alpha strike if everything critt'd, but not sure about 1mil though I may be forgetting something.
Hmm, Well I know a 200k hit can be done with a critt'd THY-3 and Quantums, done that but that is still far shy of a 1mil dmg hit.
Even stacking: THY-3, Full-Aux Ionized particle beam, BO-2, TB-1, and IsoMetric charge under the full APA, APO-3, Tac Fleet, TT-1, Quantum Singularity bonus buff with a de-cloaking Rom-Bush dmg bonus I would think you could approach a 500-600k alpha strike if everything critt'd, but not sure about 1mil though I may be forgetting something.
Stacked debuffs already on the target?
Species specific SWS DOFF?
Tet Cascade?
Proton Barrage?
Hyperflux?
Singularity Jump for +5% Exotic?
Shield Refreq Protonic?
Vulnerability Exploiters?
Bioneural Infusion's CrtD?
Still think there's more that I just can't think of at the moment...meh.
50-70k DPS in parsing an STF in total is not nearly as useful in PVP or PVE as spikes surpassing that damage in less than a second.
They also rely on copious amounts of Attack Pattern Beta, which while useful in almost all PvE content (the Mogai is the only NPC that I can think of that has Tactical Team, and even then it's basically only one copy), is also easily cleared in PvP (where almost everyone runs at least one copy for rapid shield redistribution if nothing else... forcing APB and Boarding Party into carefully-timed 5 second windows of opportunity just makes it better).
They also rely on copious amounts of Attack Pattern Beta, which while useful in almost all PvE content (the Mogai is the only NPC that I can think of that has Tactical Team, and even then it's basically only one copy), is also easily cleared in PvP (where almost everyone runs at least one copy for rapid shield redistribution if nothing else... forcing APB and Boarding Party into carefully-timed 5 second windows of opportunity just makes it better).
TT cleanses/removes debuffs...it's not an immunity to them. Can't remember what the pulse cycle on TT is though off the top of my head.
They also rely on copious amounts of Attack Pattern Beta, which while useful in almost all PvE content (the Mogai is the only NPC that I can think of that has Tactical Team, and even then it's basically only one copy), is also easily cleared in PvP (where almost everyone runs at least one copy for rapid shield redistribution if nothing else... forcing APB and Boarding Party into carefully-timed 5 second windows of opportunity just makes it better).
Actually, what they should do is prevent debuff-stacking. Like only 1x Attack Pattern Beta on an enemy, and not these half-exploits where ppl use everyone and their pets to stack it to ridiculous heights.
It's only gone out of control for the people that know how to play the game, but isn't that pretty much same in every game? You gotta know what you're doin' to reach those numbers, if damage is nerfed, by means other than dimishing returns, it will not make it better or worse.
Good people will always be good. Being good comes from knowing when to do what as well as the gear, the gear itself has smaller magnitude than the player itself.
Say the word, it saves the world. CUUCUUMBEER!"-With slight partigen with it." Proud member or DPS-800"-We kill dem mines with our scitter turrets."
1 million damage alpha? Well...I still wanna see someone get a million damage off of a Thalaron Pulse.
If my sorry hide can get almost 200,000 damage, I'm sure people more skilled than me can more. Heck, even a half million damage would be awesome to see.
I remain empathetic to the concerns of my community, but do me a favor and lay off the god damn name calling and petty remarks. It will get you nowhere.
I must admit, respect points to Trendy for laying down the law like that.
1 million damage alpha? Well...I still wanna see someone get a million damage off of a Thalaron Pulse.
If my sorry hide can get almost 200,000 damage, I'm sure people more skilled than me can more. Heck, even a half million damage would be awesome to see.
360k for me on record, but does this count the targets it hit aswell? then I'd be at 3M+- thalaron pulse? Yes I did 20k dps on that ISE with 8 rainbow turrets and 0 tactical consoles....
Say the word, it saves the world. CUUCUUMBEER!"-With slight partigen with it." Proud member or DPS-800"-We kill dem mines with our scitter turrets."
360k for me on record, but does this count the targets it hit aswell? then I'd be at 3M+- thalaron pulse? Yes I did 20k dps on that ISE with 8 rainbow turrets and 0 tactical consoles....
Damage on a single target.
I'd be impressed enough with a half million damage Thalaron pulse.
I remain empathetic to the concerns of my community, but do me a favor and lay off the god damn name calling and petty remarks. It will get you nowhere.
I must admit, respect points to Trendy for laying down the law like that.
Actually, what they should do is prevent debuff-stacking. Like only 1x Attack Pattern Beta on an enemy, and not these half-exploits where ppl use everyone and their pets to stack it to ridiculous heights.
/ducks
Oh it is on, I'm going for the painting now, future generations will not get to see it!!
Ok joking aside I'm in 2 minds about this. 1) I can see it's imba but 2) If beta doesn't stack mesh weavers become really bad as well as a lot of science abilities being a bit rubbish in potential.
There was an exploit where you could get 12 scorpions to apply beta each time and that was silly powerful. Maybe 2 being max cap on beta might not be so bad but not 1.
A diminishing returns to damage might not be a bad idea, would not penalise the bottom end while helping to stop the top end running away with damage. It would be nice if the most effective group for most content is not all tacs in all the same ships with narrow focus on damage.
Right now at the top end there's about a 50% difference in cannons and beams, science is absent apart from novelty gravity well or repulsors for more damage. If you go in with a science ship and 4 scimitars that science ship is in a real danger of getting AFK penalty and more or less not needed.
Well I think the title of this thread can easily be answered with YES! In my opinion the balance of the game is getting worse with every new high-end content they're adding to the game. Some combinations of buffs are absolutely overkill. Recently I was killed by a romulan Mogai that blew my ship into pieces with no chance of defense. My ship had about 15k shields and nearly 50k hull points and it took him only 1 volley of his forward cannons after decloaking to destroy my ship. I had an active Tac Team II cause I heard him loading buffs. But took my ship out even before the tac team could react and reroute shields. I saw hitmarks with about 14k damage from plasma cannons... these should normaly have a base damage of about 400 or so. I wonder what buffs can overload a cannon to do 35 TIMES it's normal damage... And let's not talk about the powersource necessary to power about 5!!!!! of these cannons... And all that can be packed into a surprise attack that normal players are not able to withstand even with the best builds...
On the other side I always wonder why my own ship does about NO damage in PvP at all... For example my Kumarii Escort with 4 Fleet Phaser Dual Cannons, weapon Power at 125 and 5 Phaser relais with nearly 30% more damage. If I'm not completely wrong that should be a base damage of about 740 starting from a Mk XII common weapon. ( DPV 192 )
What I experience in PvP is that my cannons with activated attack pattern alpha, tac fleet, tac team are doing about 25 to 30 damage??? WTF??? On a target with NO activated buffs.. Whatever I try, whichever buffs or builds I'm using my damage in PvP is nearly 0.. While the same build is dealing about 500 damage to a borg cube in PvE.. So if these crappy Dominion Attack Ships can take more hits than a borg tac cube SOMETHING IS TERRIBLY WRONG...
BTW these Bugships are the most terrible overkill ships i've ever seen.. Whoever watched DS9 knows these are only effective in kamikaze runs or in large numbers.. a single Dominion Attack Ship is cannon fodder... So WHY are these ships the ultimate killing weapons in this game? It doesn't need any skill to fly these ships. You cannot be killed effectively cause flying around like a mosquito makes you quite immune to any weapons and ultimate firepower makes killing enemies way to easy. I'm playing STO for a while now and i've NEVER seen a dominion bugship beeing killed by anything else than ANOTHER bugship. If there's no such present most bugship players end with X:0 stats... and that is simply frustrasting and ruins the overall motivation of playing PvP at all. So I see the time coming when we have only these Elite Players left in PvP cause no one else wants to be pwned defenseless..
BTW how is anyone supposed to beat down such super-maneuverable ships? The typicall escort with forward weapons is useless cause in most cases you can't get a clear shot. Cruisers with beam weapons simply don't deal enough damage to even get down the shields... The overall speed and maneuverability of the ships in STO is ruining the game..
In my opinion, PvP needs a huge rebalance to make it more attractive to unexperienced players who at least want to have a CHANCE to deal some damage..
Maybe I am completely wrong with my text and if anyone can answer some of my questions I would be happy. I don't know what buff or equipment marks the border from a newbie to an elite PvP player...
Well I think the title of this thread can easily be answered with YES! In my opinion the balance of the game is getting worse with every new high-end content they're adding to the game. Some combinations of buffs are absolutely overkill. Recently I was killed by a romulan Mogai that blew my ship into pieces with no chance of defense. My ship had about 15k shields and nearly 50k hull points and it took him only 1 volley of his forward cannons after decloaking to destroy my ship. I had an active Tac Team II cause I heard him loading buffs. But took my ship out even before the tac team could react and reroute shields. I saw hitmarks with about 14k damage from plasma cannons... these should normaly have a base damage of about 400 or so. I wonder what buffs can overload a cannon to do 35 TIMES it's normal damage... And let's not talk about the powersource necessary to power about 5!!!!! of these cannons... And all that can be packed into a surprise attack that normal players are not able to withstand even with the best builds...
On the other side I always wonder why my own ship does about NO damage in PvP at all... For example my Kumarii Escort with 4 Fleet Phaser Dual Cannons, weapon Power at 125 and 5 Phaser relais with nearly 30% more damage. If I'm not completely wrong that should be a base damage of about 740 starting from a Mk XII common weapon. ( DPV 192 )
What I experience in PvP is that my cannons with activated attack pattern alpha, tac fleet, tac team are doing about 25 to 30 damage??? WTF??? On a target with NO activated buffs.. Whatever I try, whichever buffs or builds I'm using my damage in PvP is nearly 0.. While the same build is dealing about 500 damage to a borg cube in PvE.. So if these crappy Dominion Attack Ships can take more hits than a borg tac cube SOMETHING IS TERRIBLY WRONG...
BTW these Bugships are the most terrible overkill ships i've ever seen.. Whoever watched DS9 knows these are only effective in kamikaze runs or in large numbers.. a single Dominion Attack Ship is cannon fodder... So WHY are these ships the ultimate killing weapons in this game? It doesn't need any skill to fly these ships. You cannot be killed effectively cause flying around like a mosquito makes you quite immune to any weapons and ultimate firepower makes killing enemies way to easy. I'm playing STO for a while now and i've NEVER seen a dominion bugship beeing killed by anything else than ANOTHER bugship. If there's no such present most bugship players end with X:0 stats... and that is simply frustrasting and ruins the overall motivation of playing PvP at all. So I see the time coming when we have only these Elite Players left in PvP cause no one else wants to be pwned defenseless..
BTW how is anyone supposed to beat down such super-maneuverable ships? The typicall escort with forward weapons is useless cause in most cases you can't get a clear shot. Cruisers with beam weapons simply don't deal enough damage to even get down the shields... The overall speed and maneuverability of the ships in STO is ruining the game..
In my opinion, PvP needs a huge rebalance to make it more attractive to unexperienced players who at least want to have a CHANCE to deal some damage..
Maybe I am completely wrong with my text and if anyone can answer some of my questions I would be happy. I don't know what buff or equipment marks the border from a newbie to an elite PvP player...
Greets Gerrit aka Mietzekotze
About cannons, its pretty normal:
Consider that each 1 Weapon Power over 50 gives your energy weapons a 4% damage bonus.
125 Weapons Power means you got 75 exceeding Weapons Power, which means you got a 300% more damage with your energy weapons.
Add Weapons Training and Energy Weapons Training which double your energy weapons damage.
so we are about at 500%.
Add Energy Weapons Consoles ... 5 of them means +150% Damage.
we are 650%.
400 x 650/100 = 2600
Each cannon, without any buff deals 2600 Damage.
Now Consider:
+25% (Decloak Buff)
+50% (Attack Pattern Alpha)
+30% / +50% (Cannon Rapid Fire I / III)
+30% (Attack Pattern Omega III)
+30% (Tactical Fleet)
Damage Resistance Debuff (Fire on My Mark)
+165%
2600 x 165 / 100 = 4290
4290 x 4 (Mogai Have 4 Fore Weapons, so it had 4 cannons) = 17.160 (without considering resistance and resistance debuffs).
EDIT:
calculations may be wrong, I feel like I'm missing something.
Add 3 Aft Turrets ...
So, nothing wrong, and trust me there are ships that deal even stronger damage.
However, don't worry, getting killed in war zones is pretty normal.
There are many cowards always ready to decloak and kill you while your shields are down, and this is really boring.
But trust me, there is nothing more funny than kill them in the same way.
You are completely wrong. Period.
Also, TT2? Like for real, you run TT2???
*soft smile* I don't PvP, but, indeed, TT2 sounds like a giant fail-fit, right off the bat (the opportunity cost of a valuable Lt. Tact station alone). Especially when he said he popped it to protect him, yeah, how exactly?!
I normally wouldn't comment on someone's PvP fit, but supporting a proposed nerf, merely because you just got the living TRIBBLE shot out of you, that's usually a poor motive.
I think you might want to post your build in the PvP section of the forum and ask for some advice stating what the purpose of the build is (damage dealer, CC, hybrid, healer etc). Most people do not use tactical team 2(TT2) defensively as TT1 will provide exactly the same benefit.
Be prepared to politely be told it may not be a very good build but if you laugh it off they will make you a much better PvPer. If you want general PvE advice you can always get it on the dps public channel and in PublicEliteSTF.
Asking for a nerf because you got blown up and can't do what blew you up isn't a great idea. Sure I can't hit the levels of damage Mal Reynolds (50k+) can but I am pushing 30k and already the game offers no challenge and certainly no need of anything that doesn't directly increase weapon damage.
No idea where you got those numbers from. Obviously the Rarity and the Mark of the DHC has been left out. Unless we're looking at the guy you were replying to and his Fleet DCs. Okay then, let's redo this, eh?
Now Consider:
+25% (Decloak Buff)
+50% (Attack Pattern Alpha)
+30% / +50% (Cannon Rapid Fire I / III)
+30% (Attack Pattern Omega III)
+30% (Tactical Fleet)
Damage Resistance Debuff (Fire on My Mark)
+165%
2600 x 165 / 100 = 4290
4290 x 4 (Mogai Have 4 Fore Weapons, so it had 4 cannons) = 17.160 (without considering resistance and resistance debuffs).
Hrmm, yeah...let's work through those buffs with what we've got so far. Course, we're back to the Mogai now - so are we assuming DHCs again since the guy was in a Kumari? I give you props for reading what he typed...I've tried...I can't. But sure, let's switch back to DHCs. Will go with VR Mk XII's...cause that kind of matches up with your 400.
Add 3 Aft Turrets ...
So, nothing wrong, and trust me there are ships that deal even stronger damage.
But that's kind of the point - yep, ships will do more damage...but this is too much damage already. I mean, this is without taking into account any Critical Hits and the Critical Severity that's out there. There's no Omega Weapon Training, there's no [AMP], there's no potential set bonuses, they're VR Mk XII consoles instead of UR Mk XII Vulnerabiltiy consoles, buffs haven't been stripped, debuffs haven't been stacked...
However, don't worry, getting killed in war zones is pretty normal.
There are many cowards always ready to decloak and kill you while your shields are down, and this is really boring.
Okay, I had to LOL at calling somebody a coward for attacking while shields are down. On one hand, because if the object is to destroy the target...well...uh...and on the other hand, with all the bleed - folks die easily enough with 100% shields on four facings.
All that math is cute and all, but none of it is accurate compared to what we see in-game.
Even broken FAW spam will out-DPS the best cannon builds right now. I can have a max power max overcap DHC build firing 4 purple XII DHCs at a target under at least 3 different buffs, and still not reach a fraction of what your math says I should.
I have one toon with an ABC using broadsiding beam arrays and it's broken 10K dps repeatedly. I have another toon with an ABC trying to run DHCs or DBBs up front, and it's wallowing in the 7k-8k range, despite my best efforts to buff the hell out of it.
All that math is cute and all, but none of it is accurate compared to what we see in-game.
If you include things not included, then obviously it would not match. Without taking into account debuffs, shields up/down, etc, etc, etc...obviously it would be off. It's the math of what the base range would be before taking such things into account.
Even broken FAW spam will out-DPS the best cannon builds right now. I can have a max power max overcap DHC build firing 4 purple XII DHCs at a target under at least 3 different buffs, and still not reach a fraction of what your math says I should.
Two things there, so two things here...
First, FAW not needing to be aimed and dealing with 250 arcs fore and aft (even though there will only be a 70 degree arc overlap) can generally apply a better stream of damage without the movement...thus not having the downtime of cannons as they're aimed...resulting in potentially higher DPS in certain circumstances.
Second, again - there's no shield damage reduction nor hull damage resistance for those numbers above. It's not even hinted that there is...so obviously that would not be the damage done to a target that has shields or any form of damage resistance.
I have one toon with an ABC using broadsiding beam arrays and it's broken 10K dps repeatedly. I have another toon with an ABC trying to run DHCs or DBBs up front, and it's wallowing in the 7k-8k range, despite my best efforts to buff the hell out of it.
My previously highest DPSing toon was a JHEC with an Eng and R-Tet Arrays. Oddly enough, he was also my lowest single target DPSing toon even as he parsed the highest in ISE. Flying around in circles, going whee, while resting my pinkytoe on the spacebar and reading the forums...with AtB FAW with the R-Tets meant a constant stream of damage. I was always doing damage. With guys that had deadtime because of having to pay attention, select targets, move to have those targets in arc, and move within range so as not to lose damage because of falloff...yep, they'd do less DPS overall. Even if they could obliterate targets much faster than the JHEC guy, for an overall parse - the damage they could do to a single target could not make up for the loss of damage not being done during all the maneuvering over the course of the instance.
I've got a guy that can parse 20-30k+ in a 30s period that can barely break 10k over a 5m parse.
And yes, all of their damage is a fraction of the damage from the math that is commonly shown...because the resistances, falloff range, etc, etc, etc is not part of the math that is commonly shown.
Reduction/Resistance is the final modifier.
Let's look at that 6365.8 DPV shot from a DHC, eh? Let's drop it against resilient shields with a damage reduction of 75% and against a hull with say 50% damage resistance. We'll drop it at zero range (cause I can't recall the falloff formula at the moment and am too lazy too look)...
Incoming Damage: 6365.8
vs. Shields:
6365.8 * 0.05 = 318.29 damage is lost to the ether, it magically disappears because of the resilient shields.
6365.8 * 0.05 = 318.29 damage is passed along to the hull as bleed.
6365.8 * 0.9 = 5729.22 damage hits the shields.
5729.22 * 0.25 = 1432.305 damage is done to the shields, 75% of the damage lost to damage reduction.
vs. Hull:
318.29 * 0.5 = 159.145 damage done to the hull, 50% of the damage lost to damage resistance.
So an outgoing shot that produced 6365.8 damage would result in 1591.45 damage being done to that particular target (shield and hull combined). So only 25% of the damage the DHC produced was actually done to the target. A fraction...
Using SB24 is an interesting idea for parsing. I tried to find that the other day and didn't see it in the PvE queue. Don't do it that often. Do I have to go to the sector location to start it, or should it be in the queue?
Comments
i think that yest some of the builds are OP. however, it can be mitigated. you want to stop that 30K escort? make the sci powers to where they should be. tykins rift should shut them down. grav well should freeze them in place. viral matrix should leave them dead in the water.
and before the escort weenies start crying, the cooldown on most sci powers is a lot higher than CSV or CRF.
I have said it numerous times. the glass cannon escorts are made of titanium. an escort should NOT be able to face down a borg cube, let alone vape it in 15 seconds.
Tried watching a couple of those once, but they seemed more for entertainment and showing off than educational utility. Just a ton of stuff happening at high speed, but no real explanation as to what it meant (at least the ones I watched). Does anyone do videos where they pause midway through, stop and explain "And now I'm positioning here and queueing up ABC so that I can 123," then unpause and executing, then pausing again afterwards and adding "so as you can see, once you use 123, it then causes XYZ..." and so on? Less "Lets Play" more lecture hall? Or does nobody do those?
Yeah, this has almost always kind of been off...in typical MMO fashion, mind you...but it's definitely been off.
It's kind of funny, though, thinking about it - imagine if the folks running ISE in 2m or less - were the folks barely able to pull off a 15m optional sort of thing, eh?
Thissler's videos are almost 99.99% educational. There's the 0.01% where somebody ticks Thissler off, mind you.
http://thissler.com/
DPS != Damage
Specialized vape builds care 0 for the total parsed DPS. The ridiculously high spike damage is what they are after.
50-70k DPS in parsing an STF in total is not nearly as useful in PVP or PVE as spikes surpassing that damage in less than a second.
Thats the easy part, wait for their buffs to drop, then you queue ALL of your +dmg skills at one time, longest CD to shortest CD, then unload it all into one unsuspecting target to make him respawn.
House of Beautiful Orions
PUNISH THE FEDs
Even stacking: THY-3, Full-Aux Ionized particle beam, BO-2, TB-1, and IsoMetric charge under the full APA, APO-3, Tac Fleet, TT-1, Quantum Singularity bonus buff with a de-cloaking Rom-Bush dmg bonus I would think you could approach a 500-600k alpha strike if everything critt'd, but not sure about 1mil though I may be forgetting something.
Stacked debuffs already on the target?
Species specific SWS DOFF?
Tet Cascade?
Proton Barrage?
Hyperflux?
Singularity Jump for +5% Exotic?
Shield Refreq Protonic?
Vulnerability Exploiters?
Bioneural Infusion's CrtD?
Still think there's more that I just can't think of at the moment...meh.
They also rely on copious amounts of Attack Pattern Beta, which while useful in almost all PvE content (the Mogai is the only NPC that I can think of that has Tactical Team, and even then it's basically only one copy), is also easily cleared in PvP (where almost everyone runs at least one copy for rapid shield redistribution if nothing else... forcing APB and Boarding Party into carefully-timed 5 second windows of opportunity just makes it better).
TT cleanses/removes debuffs...it's not an immunity to them. Can't remember what the pulse cycle on TT is though off the top of my head.
Actually, what they should do is prevent debuff-stacking. Like only 1x Attack Pattern Beta on an enemy, and not these half-exploits where ppl use everyone and their pets to stack it to ridiculous heights.
/ducks
Yep knew there might have been more. :P
Good people will always be good. Being good comes from knowing when to do what as well as the gear, the gear itself has smaller magnitude than the player itself.
CUUCUUMBEER! "-With slight partigen with it."
Proud member or DPS-800 "-We kill dem mines with our scitter turrets."
If my sorry hide can get almost 200,000 damage, I'm sure people more skilled than me can more. Heck, even a half million damage would be awesome to see.
360k for me on record, but does this count the targets it hit aswell? then I'd be at 3M+- thalaron pulse? Yes I did 20k dps on that ISE with 8 rainbow turrets and 0 tactical consoles....
CUUCUUMBEER! "-With slight partigen with it."
Proud member or DPS-800 "-We kill dem mines with our scitter turrets."
Damage on a single target.
I'd be impressed enough with a half million damage Thalaron pulse.
Oh it is on, I'm going for the painting now, future generations will not get to see it!!
Ok joking aside I'm in 2 minds about this. 1) I can see it's imba but 2) If beta doesn't stack mesh weavers become really bad as well as a lot of science abilities being a bit rubbish in potential.
There was an exploit where you could get 12 scorpions to apply beta each time and that was silly powerful. Maybe 2 being max cap on beta might not be so bad but not 1.
A diminishing returns to damage might not be a bad idea, would not penalise the bottom end while helping to stop the top end running away with damage. It would be nice if the most effective group for most content is not all tacs in all the same ships with narrow focus on damage.
Right now at the top end there's about a 50% difference in cannons and beams, science is absent apart from novelty gravity well or repulsors for more damage. If you go in with a science ship and 4 scimitars that science ship is in a real danger of getting AFK penalty and more or less not needed.
It is through repetition that we learn our weakness.
A master with a stone is better than a novice with a sword.
Has damage got out of control?
This is the last thing I will post.
I'd like to see what he/she used to do it.
Also, this thread looks like a challenge beetween bullies ...
I did 500K damage ... I did 1Mil Damage ... I think the next one will state "I did 100Mil Damage".
But please.
Those numbers are ridiculous.
[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
On the other side I always wonder why my own ship does about NO damage in PvP at all... For example my Kumarii Escort with 4 Fleet Phaser Dual Cannons, weapon Power at 125 and 5 Phaser relais with nearly 30% more damage. If I'm not completely wrong that should be a base damage of about 740 starting from a Mk XII common weapon. ( DPV 192 )
What I experience in PvP is that my cannons with activated attack pattern alpha, tac fleet, tac team are doing about 25 to 30 damage??? WTF??? On a target with NO activated buffs.. Whatever I try, whichever buffs or builds I'm using my damage in PvP is nearly 0.. While the same build is dealing about 500 damage to a borg cube in PvE.. So if these crappy Dominion Attack Ships can take more hits than a borg tac cube SOMETHING IS TERRIBLY WRONG...
BTW these Bugships are the most terrible overkill ships i've ever seen.. Whoever watched DS9 knows these are only effective in kamikaze runs or in large numbers.. a single Dominion Attack Ship is cannon fodder... So WHY are these ships the ultimate killing weapons in this game? It doesn't need any skill to fly these ships. You cannot be killed effectively cause flying around like a mosquito makes you quite immune to any weapons and ultimate firepower makes killing enemies way to easy. I'm playing STO for a while now and i've NEVER seen a dominion bugship beeing killed by anything else than ANOTHER bugship. If there's no such present most bugship players end with X:0 stats... and that is simply frustrasting and ruins the overall motivation of playing PvP at all. So I see the time coming when we have only these Elite Players left in PvP cause no one else wants to be pwned defenseless..
BTW how is anyone supposed to beat down such super-maneuverable ships? The typicall escort with forward weapons is useless cause in most cases you can't get a clear shot. Cruisers with beam weapons simply don't deal enough damage to even get down the shields... The overall speed and maneuverability of the ships in STO is ruining the game..
In my opinion, PvP needs a huge rebalance to make it more attractive to unexperienced players who at least want to have a CHANCE to deal some damage..
Maybe I am completely wrong with my text and if anyone can answer some of my questions I would be happy. I don't know what buff or equipment marks the border from a newbie to an elite PvP player...
Greets Gerrit aka Mietzekotze
You are completely wrong. Period.
Also, TT2? Like for real, you run TT2???
Apparently some forum posters have diplomatic immunity nowadays, where can I get mine? [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
About cannons, its pretty normal:
Consider that each 1 Weapon Power over 50 gives your energy weapons a 4% damage bonus.
125 Weapons Power means you got 75 exceeding Weapons Power, which means you got a 300% more damage with your energy weapons.
Add Weapons Training and Energy Weapons Training which double your energy weapons damage.
so we are about at 500%.
Add Energy Weapons Consoles ... 5 of them means +150% Damage.
we are 650%.
400 x 650/100 = 2600
Each cannon, without any buff deals 2600 Damage.
Now Consider:
+25% (Decloak Buff)
+50% (Attack Pattern Alpha)
+30% / +50% (Cannon Rapid Fire I / III)
+30% (Attack Pattern Omega III)
+30% (Tactical Fleet)
Damage Resistance Debuff (Fire on My Mark)
+165%
2600 x 165 / 100 = 4290
4290 x 4 (Mogai Have 4 Fore Weapons, so it had 4 cannons) = 17.160 (without considering resistance and resistance debuffs).
EDIT:
calculations may be wrong, I feel like I'm missing something.
Add 3 Aft Turrets ...
So, nothing wrong, and trust me there are ships that deal even stronger damage.
However, don't worry, getting killed in war zones is pretty normal.
There are many cowards always ready to decloak and kill you while your shields are down, and this is really boring.
But trust me, there is nothing more funny than kill them in the same way.
[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
*soft smile* I don't PvP, but, indeed, TT2 sounds like a giant fail-fit, right off the bat (the opportunity cost of a valuable Lt. Tact station alone). Especially when he said he popped it to protect him, yeah, how exactly?!
I normally wouldn't comment on someone's PvP fit, but supporting a proposed nerf, merely because you just got the living TRIBBLE shot out of you, that's usually a poor motive.
I think you might want to post your build in the PvP section of the forum and ask for some advice stating what the purpose of the build is (damage dealer, CC, hybrid, healer etc). Most people do not use tactical team 2(TT2) defensively as TT1 will provide exactly the same benefit.
Be prepared to politely be told it may not be a very good build but if you laugh it off they will make you a much better PvPer. If you want general PvE advice you can always get it on the dps public channel and in PublicEliteSTF.
Asking for a nerf because you got blown up and can't do what blew you up isn't a great idea. Sure I can't hit the levels of damage Mal Reynolds (50k+) can but I am pushing 30k and already the game offers no challenge and certainly no need of anything that doesn't directly increase weapon damage.
It is through repetition that we learn our weakness.
A master with a stone is better than a novice with a sword.
Has damage got out of control?
This is the last thing I will post.
It's 2%. 125-50=75*0.02=1.5; which is how you can have 2.5x damage with 125 Weapon Power.
150% more damage at 125 Weapon Power (250% total)...that's before certain buffs and gear - after certain buffs and gear.
At 9 ranks, each adds 49.5% base damage...which would add 99% base damage - not doubling anything - just adding an additional 99% of your base damage.
Just be clear...
If we're looking at DHCs, then...
Base: 174
9 Weapon Training: +86.13= 260.13
9 Energy Weapons: +86.13= 346.26
@125 Weapon Power: *2.5= 865.65
497.5% of base damage.
If they're 5x VR Mk XII +30% Specific Consoles, we've added +150% base damage. So we'd be looking at...
Base: 174
9 Weapon Training: +86.13= 260.13
9 Energy Weapons: +86.13= 346.26
5x VR Mk XII Specific: +261= 607.26
@125 Weapon Power: *2.5= 1518.15
872.5% of base damage.
No idea where you got those numbers from. Obviously the Rarity and the Mark of the DHC has been left out. Unless we're looking at the guy you were replying to and his Fleet DCs. Okay then, let's redo this, eh?
Base: 87
UR: +8.7= 95.7
Mk XII: +106.5924= 202.2924
[Dmg]x2: +8.7= 210.9924
9 Weapon Training: +43.065= 254.0574
9 Energy Weapons: +43.065= 297.1224
5x VR Mk XII Relays: +130.5= 427.6224
@125 Weapon Power: *2.5= 1069.056
So we'd be looking at 1069.1 DPV...
Hrmm, yeah...let's work through those buffs with what we've got so far. Course, we're back to the Mogai now - so are we assuming DHCs again since the guy was in a Kumari? I give you props for reading what he typed...I've tried...I can't. But sure, let's switch back to DHCs. Will go with VR Mk XII's...cause that kind of matches up with your 400.
Base: 174
VR: +13.05= 187.05
Mk XII: +213.1848= 400.2348
9 Weapon Training: +86.13= 486.3648
9 Energy Weapons: +86.13= 572.4948
5x VR Mk XII Specific: +261= 833.4948
@125 Weapon Power: *2.5= 2083.737
non-Base#1: 2083.737
Rombush: +520.93425= 2604.67125
APO3: +625.1211= 3229.79235
APA3: +1041.8685= 4271.66085
TacFleet: +625.1211= 4896.78195
non-Base#2: 4896.78195
CRF3: +1469.034585= 6365.816535
6365.8 DPV per DHC, not taking into account resistance/resistance debuffs.
x4 and we're looking at 25463.2 DPV.
Well...
But that's kind of the point - yep, ships will do more damage...but this is too much damage already. I mean, this is without taking into account any Critical Hits and the Critical Severity that's out there. There's no Omega Weapon Training, there's no [AMP], there's no potential set bonuses, they're VR Mk XII consoles instead of UR Mk XII Vulnerabiltiy consoles, buffs haven't been stripped, debuffs haven't been stacked...
...so it is precisely a problem.
Okay, I had to LOL at calling somebody a coward for attacking while shields are down. On one hand, because if the object is to destroy the target...well...uh...and on the other hand, with all the bleed - folks die easily enough with 100% shields on four facings.
Reading the Zone chat is probably the funniest thing going on in Ker'rat...imho.
In a sense, though, that would be a result of implementing diminishing returns on damage...
Even broken FAW spam will out-DPS the best cannon builds right now. I can have a max power max overcap DHC build firing 4 purple XII DHCs at a target under at least 3 different buffs, and still not reach a fraction of what your math says I should.
I have one toon with an ABC using broadsiding beam arrays and it's broken 10K dps repeatedly. I have another toon with an ABC trying to run DHCs or DBBs up front, and it's wallowing in the 7k-8k range, despite my best efforts to buff the hell out of it.
If you include things not included, then obviously it would not match. Without taking into account debuffs, shields up/down, etc, etc, etc...obviously it would be off. It's the math of what the base range would be before taking such things into account.
Two things there, so two things here...
First, FAW not needing to be aimed and dealing with 250 arcs fore and aft (even though there will only be a 70 degree arc overlap) can generally apply a better stream of damage without the movement...thus not having the downtime of cannons as they're aimed...resulting in potentially higher DPS in certain circumstances.
Second, again - there's no shield damage reduction nor hull damage resistance for those numbers above. It's not even hinted that there is...so obviously that would not be the damage done to a target that has shields or any form of damage resistance.
My previously highest DPSing toon was a JHEC with an Eng and R-Tet Arrays. Oddly enough, he was also my lowest single target DPSing toon even as he parsed the highest in ISE. Flying around in circles, going whee, while resting my pinkytoe on the spacebar and reading the forums...with AtB FAW with the R-Tets meant a constant stream of damage. I was always doing damage. With guys that had deadtime because of having to pay attention, select targets, move to have those targets in arc, and move within range so as not to lose damage because of falloff...yep, they'd do less DPS overall. Even if they could obliterate targets much faster than the JHEC guy, for an overall parse - the damage they could do to a single target could not make up for the loss of damage not being done during all the maneuvering over the course of the instance.
I've got a guy that can parse 20-30k+ in a 30s period that can barely break 10k over a 5m parse.
And yes, all of their damage is a fraction of the damage from the math that is commonly shown...because the resistances, falloff range, etc, etc, etc is not part of the math that is commonly shown.
Reduction/Resistance is the final modifier.
Let's look at that 6365.8 DPV shot from a DHC, eh? Let's drop it against resilient shields with a damage reduction of 75% and against a hull with say 50% damage resistance. We'll drop it at zero range (cause I can't recall the falloff formula at the moment and am too lazy too look)...
Incoming Damage: 6365.8
vs. Shields:
6365.8 * 0.05 = 318.29 damage is lost to the ether, it magically disappears because of the resilient shields.
6365.8 * 0.05 = 318.29 damage is passed along to the hull as bleed.
6365.8 * 0.9 = 5729.22 damage hits the shields.
5729.22 * 0.25 = 1432.305 damage is done to the shields, 75% of the damage lost to damage reduction.
vs. Hull:
318.29 * 0.5 = 159.145 damage done to the hull, 50% of the damage lost to damage resistance.
So an outgoing shot that produced 6365.8 damage would result in 1591.45 damage being done to that particular target (shield and hull combined). So only 25% of the damage the DHC produced was actually done to the target. A fraction...
* -12 energy for 2nd DHC, -24 for third, &c &c
* FAW firing on stationary targets which are being repaired instantly
my conclusion: you want to parse DPS? do Starbase 234
Would be nifty if they did a Fleet Special Project to add various target dummies that one could parse against...